Jayādvaita: At the college programs, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and I have been giving a lot of classes on varṇāśrama-dharma. Because they always want to hear something about the Hindu caste system, so they'll take us on that basis. And then we speak about varṇāśrama-dharma. And they don't have any idea to defeat it. They always, some little weak argument, but they don't have any better system.
Prabhupāda: What is their argument?
Jayādvaita: Hardly.... Well, they have some idea, they argue that there's no social mobility, because they all have some bodily idea that caste by birth.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact.
Jayādvaita: No.
Prabhupāda: The qualification.
Jayādvaita: When we present the real idea, then they're just sitting there, they have no argument. And then we challenge their system, that "What is the purpose of your society? What is the goal of it?" and they can't say anything.
Prabhupāda: Unless there is division of activity, nothing can be done perfectly well. The natural division is there in the body—the head, the arms, the belly and the legs. Similarly, in the social body also there must be the heads, the intelligent class of men, brāhmaṇa. Then everything will go on smoothly. And, at the present moment, there is no intelligent class of men. All laborer, worker class of men, fourth class. No first class, second class. Therefore society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain.
Jayādvaita: Their only objection, when we present that there's brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa, then they become automatically hostile, because they understand that we're against sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sense gratification is animal civilization. And sense control is human civ.... Sense gratification is not human society. Sense gratification is not human civilization. That they do not know. Their central point is sense gratification. That is the defect. They are running on an animal civilization as human civilization. That is the defect. Sense gratification is animal civilization. And actually they are animals. If they can kill their own child, it is animal. Just like cats, dogs, they kill their own child. What is that? It is animal civilization. Who was talking that child is put into the, what is that, left luggage?
Hari-śauri: Left-luggage lockers. Trivikrama Mahārāja, in Japan. He said over two hundred thousand, uh, twenty thousand babies, they put them in a left-luggage locker and leave them.
Prabhupāda: Bus way station? Railway station? Leave luggage. Put it and lock it, then not coming back. Then when there is bad smell.... This is going on. This is simply animal civilization. Taking the last drop of milk from the cow and immediately send it to the slaughterhouse. They are doing like that. Before sending to the slaughterhouse, they draw out the last drop of milk from the cow. And immediately killing. So you require the milk, you are taking so much milk, without milk you cannot.... And the animal from whom you take milk, she's your mother. They forget this. Mother supplies milk, she supplies milk from her body, and you are killing the mother? Is that civilization? Killing mother? And milk is necessary. Therefore you are taking the last drop of it. Otherwise, what is the use of taking the last drop of milk from the cow? It is necessary. So why not let her live and supply you milk, and you can make hundreds and thousands of very nourishing palatable preparation from milk? Where is that intelligence? Milk is nothing but transformation of the blood. So instead of taking the blood, take the transformation and live nicely, like honest gentlemen. No. They are not even gentlemen. Rogues, uncivilized. If you want to take meat, you can kill some insignificant animals like hogs and dogs which have no use. You can eat them, if you at all eat. That was allowed, hogs and dogs are allowed. Because no gentleman class will take meat. It is lower class. So they were allowed, "All right, you can take hogs, śvapaca." Lower class of men, they were taking hogs and dogs. Still, they are taking. So if you want meat, you can kill these unimportant animals. Why you are killing the animal whose last drop of milk you require? What is the sense? And as soon as you take Kṛṣṇa, He killed Pūtanā but gave her the position of the mother. Because Kṛṣṇa felt obliged, that "Whatever the Pūtanā's intention may be, but I sucked her breast, so she's My mother." So we are taking milk from the cow. The cow is not my mother? Who can live without milk? And who has not taken cow's milk? Immediately, in the morning, you require milk. And the animal, she's supplying milk, she's not mother? What is the sense? Mother-killing civilization. And they want to be happy. And periodically there is great war and wholesale massacre, reaction.