Hayagrīva: He felt that the spirit of mysticism must be kept alive by the fortunate few who know God until such time as a profound change in the material conditions imposed on humanity by nature should permit in spiritual matters of a profound transformation.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Actually they are trying to change the whole situation. The perfect social order is, as I have already mentioned it, that is perfect society when they have learned how to love God, without any motive, as natural behavior between the father and the son, and the son and the father, mother and the son. That is real perfection, perfection of society. Godless society is animal society. It is not to be adored.
Hayagrīva: What could..., what must he mean by "until such time as a profound change in the material conditions imposed on humanity by nature should permit in spiritual matters of a profound transformation?" What kind of...
Hayagrīva: ...change in material condition would permit...
Prabhupāda: Material condition is the four principles of bodily demands: eating, sleeping, sex and defense. This is material condition. So when the human society... Just like at the present moment they are simply interested in these four things, how to eat nicely, palatable dishes, or very nice table, chair and so on and so on. But after all, this is eating. And similarly, living condition. Formerly people used to live very humbly. Now they are living very, very big, big skyscraper building. But that is living. Similarly sex. Formerly also a crude society, also they have sex. The animals, also they have sex. And to make gorgeous arrangement for sex, to make the women easily available or freely available, nicely dressed, this is also simply sex. Similarly defense. Either you defend with crude weapons or you atom bomb, this is defensing.
Hayagrīva: So how are these conditions going to change?
Prabhupāda: Change means along with these primary necessities of the body one should understand what is God, what to do for God instead. That is change. That can be done, simply by training.
Hayagrīva: But how are they going to change in order to bring about a profound spiritual transformation?
Prabhupāda: This is spiritual following. Just like we are doing. We are also not neglecting the bodily necessities of life, but our main business is how to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this is not supported by the state or the leaders of the society. They think they are unnecessary because they are animals. So that is the... If the leaders, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad eva itaraḥ janaḥ (BG 3.21), that is, every leading man accept that this is necessary. Just like we say "No illicit sex." So if the state helps, it can stop immediately. "No meat-eating": the state can immediately do it, "No slaughterhouse." If somebody says that it is enforcement for a person who wants to eat meat and the state has stopped, no. State at least can do this, that state is not going to maintain slaughterhouse. If you want to eat meat, you can kill an animal at your own house, but state is not going to commit these sinful activities, statewise. That is changed in every respect. No more breweries. State cannot maintain the manufacturing of liquor. If anyone individual wants, he can prepare for himself, but he cannot sell, he cannot induce others to take. He can for his personal (indistinct), he can take. In that case, state is giving liberty, "If you want eating meat, so do." But that is not encouragement; that is discouragement. That is Vedic injunction. Vedic injunction is that yes, you can have sex, but get yourself married properly like gentlemen and ladies do. But sex will not be allowed unrestricted intermingling of men and women and prostitution, brothels. That state has to stop. In this way whole thing can be revolutionized, and the society will be completely in human civilization and God consciousness. That is wanted.
Hayagrīva: Bergson felt... He was... Bergson was optimistic in that he felt that eventually the mystics, through love, will help mankind back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: He has used that word "back to Godhead"?
Hayagrīva: Well, no, but "back to God."
Hayagrīva: I put "head" there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the real purpose of human life. Nature gives him the opportunity in the evolutionary process to get the human form of body. Now, here is a chance. He can read books, he can read Vedas, he can take instruction from the spiritual master. These opportunities are there. So that should be encouraged. That is human civilization. Simply to keep him in darkness, and that he is body and bodily necessities of life is the only business, it is a very suicidal civilization. That is not civilization. It is animal status of life.