Prabhupāda: So we understand the matter generates from spirit. Just like I am a small fragment of spirit. You are also a small fragment of spirit. So when I am in the womb of my mother, so my big body grows. On account of my spirit, small particle of spirit, coming in the womb, in the womb of my mother, the body grows. So it is evident that this body has grown because the spirit soul is there. Suppose a dead child comes out. The matter will not grow. The material body will stop growing. Therefore the conclusion is matter grows on account of the spirit fragment. Do you agree or not?
Robert Gouiran: I . . . do you mean that matter grows starting from a spiritual seed, something like that?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Robert Gouiran: If we, if we speak in scientific terms, there is an immaterial concept called the energy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The spirit soul is also energy, and matter is also energy. Two energies, when they contact, the, the so-called expansion of matter takes place.
Robert Gouiran: Yes, and we could study in our laboratories the passage from energy to matter and back from matter to energy. It's what we call . . .
Prabhupāda: Matter is also energy.
Robert Gouiran: . . . materialization. The process of materialization.
Prabhupāda: No, now, first of all, let us understand what is matter and what is spirit. Spirit is also energy, and matter is also energy. The matter, when it comes in contact with the spiritual energy, then it grows. Otherwise, it does not grow. Therefore the growing process depends on the spirit. Take this example, my body, your body. The spirit soul, when it is in the womb of the mother, then it grows. The abdomen of the mother grows also. But if the spirit soul is not there, then it will not grow. There are many sex intercourse, but if the spirit soul is not there, the sex intercourse will not turn into pregnancy. Do you realize this?
Robert Gouiran: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then how the material body grows? Because the spirit soul is there. Is there any denial?
Robert Gouiran: We call in a way, what . . . information.
Prabhupāda: You call in any way, but the fact is this, that there is something when, in contact with that something, the matter grows. Otherwise it doesn't grow. That we call spirit soul. You may call it something else. That is a different thing. You can call in a different name, but matter grows not automatically. There must be in touch something with matter. Then it grows. This is a fact.
Robert Gouiran: And it grows by agglutination of particles.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That may be. The composition may be. We take grossly five matters, gross matters, and five subtle matters. Five gross matters: this earth, water, air, fire, ether. These are gross matters. And subtle matters: mind, intelligence and ego. These are eight different types of gross and subtle matters. But they depend on the still more subtle thing. That is soul. If the soul is there, the gross matter, this material body, it grows, the mind acts, the intelligence acts, the ego acts, and as soon as the soul is out of this body, it does not act. It decomposes and again turns into gross matter. That's all. Therefore that spirit soul is the basic ground wherefrom the matter develops. Matter is developing, we can understand. A small child is developing big, fatty body. The elephant . . . but in the middle, if you stop, if you drive away the spirit, it will not grow.