Prof. Regamay: Still, there are two questions I have which remain. One is quite a small question. I have read in your commentary to the chastisement of Droṇa, killing of Droṇa, and where it was that violence for a right cause is better than the so-called nonviolence. Now I wanted to ask, for instance, to find that nonviolence, or like Gandhi, it was wrong . . .
Prabhupāda: Gandhi was not a man of spiritual . . . (indistinct) . . . he was a politician, that's all.
Prof. Regamay: Yes, but in his personal . . .
Prabhupāda: Gandhi, actually he did not know anything.
Prof. Regamay: Yes, he read Bhagavad-gītā in English. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. "There was no Kṛṣṇa. There was no Mahābhārata or Kurukṣetra." He has written like that.
Prof. Regamay: But he was dead with the words "Rāma." Pronouncing "Rāma Rāma," were his final words.
Prabhupāda: Well, I . . . that is the process of India, to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Every Indian has got initial propensity. But actually, Gandhi did not know anything about spiritual science. He was politician, that's all. That one Bengal governor, he was from Australia, Mr. Casey. So he, I remember, "Gandhi is a politician amongst the saintly person or a saintly person amongst the politician." This study was made. His moral principle, character, is very good. That is to be taken by the politicians. But so far his spiritual knowledge is concerned, that is nil.
Prof. Regamay: But nonviolence is not well in every case?
Prabhupāda: No, nonviolence . . . actually, that is the subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā. What do you mean by nonviolence? Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence; but the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural. If you say that time nonviolence, it is foolishness. It is foolishness. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Those who are rogues and, I mean to say, culprit, criminal, they should be killed. They should be stopped by violence. So violence is required sometimes. Violence is not bad, but it is not to be used ordinarily.
Prof. Regamay: But this young boy who was asking what to do with the Fascists the day before yesterday, he wanted precisely violence to fight against the Fascists. You remember, it was . . .
Prabhupāda: First of all, the thing is that our principle is vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām: those who are sinful, rogues, to kill them. Now, we have to judge whether the Fascist is sinful or the person who is attacking the Fascist, he is sinful. If both of them are of the same category, then where to use violence or to use nonviolence? Now . . . formerly, there was fight between nation to nation, and now, we have seen in Italy—I was in Rome—now they are fighting amongst themselves.
Prof. Regamay: Awfully.
Prabhupāda: Amongst themselves. Now they will fight in the family. So people are becoming so degraded. They require all to be killed.
Prof. Regamay: Yes. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: The Fascist and the non-Fascist and this and everyone . . . and that is being prepared, the atomic bomb. You see? They will be all killed, nature's way. You see? They have become so sinful. I am speaking this freely because you are a gentleman, but the civilization, modern civilization, everyone is addicted to intoxication, everyone is flesh-eating, everyone is illicit sex, everyone is addicted to gambling. So where is pure person? They require all to be killed, Fascist and non-Fascist. Because according to Bhagavad . . . paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). All these people, under different names.
Prof. Regamay: Yes, it's violence for the violence's sake practically.
Prabhupāda: So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so-called leaders, they are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra, simply killing, simply killing. That's all. Finished.
Prof. Regamay: But they have still 4,000 years of Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Not 4,000; 400,000. So yes the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this . . . the atom bomb is ready. You have got; I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finished. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill . . . you know, grinding mill?
Prof. Regamay: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and the grains are put within it, and they are all smashed. But one grain who takes shelter of the center, the pivot, it is not smashed. Similarly, the modern civilization is such that everyone will be smashed. And one takes the central point shelter, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will not be. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So best thing is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and save yourself. "Save" means . . . this is saving, if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma . . . Kṛṣṇa appears, disappears. Kṛṣṇa works here also, in the battlefield or in other field. Kṛṣṇa has a whole activity. You study Kṛṣṇa book, beginning from the birth up to the point of His leaving this world. Full of activities. Not that because He is God, He is sitting one place. No. Full of activities, in all different spheres of life. Art, philosophy, politics, sociology, military arts—everything complete. That is Kṛṣṇa.