The Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa, that "I am the enjoyer. I am the proprietor. I am the friend." Bhoktāram... Read out this.
- bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
- sarva-loka-maheśvaram
- suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
- (BG 5.29)
This is the process of peacefulness, when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of all lokas, all worlds. And Kṛṣṇa is the best friend of everyone. (French) (aside:) Get the light. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says that liberation of India from the English was done because of many, various forces, but that amongst the people, the common mass of people who helped to liberate India, there was, of course, a religious people. But there was religious people on both sides. There was religious people amongst those who wanted to liberate India, but also among those who wanted the English to be there, not in imperialism.
Yogeśvara: In other words, his point, essentially, is that religious sentiment was there on both sides. It was there on the imperialists' side as well as on the side of those who were fighting for India's liberation. So there seems to be a kind of dichotomy. Religious sentiments can be expressed by anyone, whatever their motivation is. Whether it be imperialist, whether it be communist... Religious sentiment is found...
Prabhupāda: What is religious sentiment? (French for some time)
Jyotirmayī: He says again that in India, now also there's a big struggle because they are trying to solve the immediate problems of hunger, you know, all these problems, now, and, of course, there is a religious people on the side of those who are struggling, but there's also religious people on the other side, of those who want to keep the situation as it is now... And then he said that...
Prabhupāda: Religious people wants to keep the situation? Starving? Starving situation? (French for some time)
Bhagavān: You don't understand what he's saying now? Because he has a different translation.
Pṛthu Putra: Because what he says, he says on the both parts, they are based on a passage of Bhagavad-gītā. The imperialist people and the other side, they do both, sometimes on the base of Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Who?
Pṛthu Putra: The communists and the imperialists. And he sees some names, Rajagopalacharya.
Jyotirmayī: This man, for example, the one that he just cite, he is also a religious man, but he is against the change now. He wants to keep as it is imperialism. You know. So he said that there are so many of these people who are religious and they are, of course, all they have good goals, that is to help people. You find people referring Bhagavad-gītā on the side of those who are struggling now to change the situation and the side, on the side of those who are keeping the situation as it is. So he says there is an ambiguity there.
Prabhupāda: Ambiguity means he is not clear in his knowledge. What is religion and what is liberation—these things he does not know clearly. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He says that now they are using religion for their own interests and for their own goals.
Prabhupāda: Who is that man? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said all the social forces in India wants to keep their own privileges.
Prabhupāda: So? The communist does not? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that in Marxism there is no religious references.
Prabhupāda: But the, what is called, terrorism facility, there is. There is no religious sentiment, but there is terrorism sentiment. Some sentiment is there. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that yesterday in Assam seven student have been killed, but is it the communists who killed them?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jyotirmayī: He's saying, is it the communists who killed them?
Prabhupāda: Communists killed others?
Yogeśvara: Seven students in Assam. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said that in India all the planners of the government, they are religious people. Some of them are brāhmaṇas, but still they have been arresting forty-thousand people working on the railways for no good reason. So that's why he said that religion is used by the people for their own privileges.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. (French)
Devotee: What he's trying to say is that some people are using...
Karandhara: No, it's clear. It's clear. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said one should ask a question not according to what one thinks about religion, but what is being used now.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot think, you cannot think of religion. Our conception of religion is different. (French for some time)
Prabhupāda: Where are Satsvarūpa and Karandhara? Where gone? They do not want to hear? They have become...?
Bhagavān: They're calling Africa.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bhagavān: They may be on the phone with Africa. I'm not sure.
Jyotirmayī: So he said that here in France, the Christians, they are now reviewing their own Christianity, their own philosophy, because they see that the materialistic people, they are giving critiques, and they are right in their critiques. So they are changing their religion.
Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying that religion has to be defined according to the way the mass of people accept it.
Prabhupāda: That is not religion. That is sentiment. (French)
Devotee: (To Prabhupāda, as Frenchman speaks in French:) They're on the phone speaking with Brahmānanda Mahārāja.
Jyotirmayī: So he says that those who have been just religious and working for the independence, they didn't do any real good.
Prabhupāda: Now, first of all, our proposition is what does he mean by religion? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that there cannot be an abstract definition of religion, but only the experience of religion.
Prabhupāda: No, we have got definition of religion. Let him learn from us. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he says that "I know what is religion, but what brings religion in the concrete life, in day to day life? What good brings religion in the life?"
Yogeśvara: He said, "Even, even if I were to learn your definition of religion, the important thing is how it is practiced. Not just words," he says, "the important thing is how it is lived, how people live their..."
Prabhupāda: Yes. The practice. It is practiced... Those who are real religionists, they practice it. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said this is a real problem, how to practice religion, not only on the individual platform, but also on the social platform.
Prabhupāda: No, we are teaching, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are teaching how to practice religion. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that even though he himself is materialist and atheist, he propagates this in his articles, in his newspaper, you know, he propagates certain aspects of religion.
Prabhupāda: No. First of all, we must know what is religion, and what is atheist or what is theist. First of all, if we know what is religion, then we can define who is following, who is not following. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said what he can give is his own experience of religion and what he is propagating when he talks in his articles...
Prabhupāda: What is his experience of religion? (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said that in Hinduism, what he thinks is the best...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Religion is not meant for Hindus or Christians—for everyone. So there must be a general definition of religion. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So he said that his idea is that advaita-vedānta philosophy is the best in the world?
Prabhupāda: What is that advaita? What is that advaita? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that advaita-vedānta...
Prabhupāda: What is that advaita-veda philosophy? Let him define. (French)
Jyotirmayī: Advaita. A means without. Dvaita...
Prabhupāda: "Without"?
Yogeśvara: "Not." Dvaita means dual. So non-dual.
Jyotirmayī: Non-dual. "There is not two." This is advaita.
Prabhupāda: So what is that one? (French)
Yogeśvara: So what I think this gentleman is explaining is that he finds the idea of non-dualism very attractive because he says that if a real religion is to fulfill it's responsibilities, then it will not try to teach its followers that there are two separate things, there is the creation, and there is you, the creator, that there is you.
Jyotirmayī: Creator.
Yogeśvara: That there is a creator and then you, but rather, that there is a harmony with the individual being and the totality of existence, not just on an individual religious level, but also socially. So in other words, he's seeing that this advaita philosophy, this non-dual philosophy is very nice on the political or social level as well since it teaches a kind of unity of the individual with everything.
Prabhupāda: This is not very clear. (laughs) Now, dualism means two, and monism is one. So he says monism, advaita. So monism, what is the center of monism? (French)