Prabhupāda: Yoginām api sarve... So within yourself, if one thinks, antara mad-gatena, Kṛṣṇa, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, that is first-class yogi. But the so-called yogis, they want to become Kṛṣṇa. "Now I have become God."
Dr. Patel: But then I don't think they say they are becoming Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Dr. Patel: Their disciples say. As any disciple...
Prabhupāda: These all rascals! Kick these disciple. Why... Wherefrom the disciple comes? From the rascals.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Eh? These rascals come... If the... Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). If rascals are produced, he's a rascal.
Dr. Patel: But you are a guru. I am your disciple.
Prabhupāda: So you see they are mine! They are not violating...
Dr. Patel: I have not, if I have not taken you as a as a god, then I can get my knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing!
Dr. Patel: If I take you as a man, I have not got it.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing! If God produces rascals, then he's a rascal!
Dr. Patel: The guru has got to be taken as God.
Prabhupāda: That is another... Guru has taken... Not that God, he's God only.
Dr. Patel: Guru is not talk, God.
Prabhupāda: He's... just like your representative. Suppose if I have got you some business. There is a call: "If you love me, you love my dog." It is not the dog is you. Dog is different. But if you love somebody, you pat sometimes, "Oh,...," the dog. Just to satisfy him. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. This is stated. If you satisfy guru, then God is satisfied. That does not mean guru is God.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no! I don't say I think guru...
Prabhupāda: Guru...
Dr. Patel: I don't understand and you also don't understand me. I mean to say that disciples have got to take guru as God, and not this body as God. His ātmā is guru, and ātmā is God. So guru in that way is God.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not...
Dr. Patel: That is what I think.
Prabhupāda: No!
Dr. Patel: And I don't think I am wrong.
Prabhupāda: No, why God...? Why do you make...? Why do you distinguish between guru's ātmā and guru's body?
Dr. Patel: But the body... But the body's not guru!
Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. That is Māyāvāda.
Dr. Patel: Even if you say guru is body,...
Prabhupāda: They make also Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's inside different.
Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's body is different from your body and my body. Kṛṣṇa body is spiritual.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you make a... Once you say that guru is equal to Kṛṣṇa, and again Kṛṣṇa's body and Kṛṣṇa is not different, but guru's body and guru's soul is different.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupāda: No. That's not right.
Dr. Patel: Ātmā is, ātmā is guru...
Prabhupāda: That's not right. Please note it. If you compare the guru is God, then you should compare similarity.
Dr. Patel: Similarity, this body and Kṛṣṇa's body are different.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. That is an ignorance. You do not know.
Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's body is spiritual. His, any part of His body...
Prabhupāda: The Māyāvādīs do that, that Kṛṣṇa...
Dr. Patel: He can hear, He can hear by His eye and hear by His finger. And satisfy anybody, by His anything.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is all right. I mean to say that sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. When you accept guru equal to Kṛṣṇa, then you cannot make such distinction.
Dr. Patel: Bodily distinction...
Prabhupāda: Then why bodily or anything!?
Dr. Patel: It is very important.
Prabhupāda: It is the... No, no, no. They cannot make, say distinc...
Dr. Patel: The body, this body...
Prabhupāda: Cinmaya...
Dr. Patel: ...becomes ill and he has got to come to a doctor sometimes.
Prabhupāda: Body, that... If...
Dr. Patel: But that, Kṛṣṇa's body is not that body.
Prabhupāda: Not only, not only guru. Anyone who is spiritually advanced, he has no more material body.
Dr. Patel: That's... From higher stand point of view.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you, if the guru is in the lower standard, then how he becomes guru?
Dr. Patel: No, that guru who knows that he has no real material body, he's beyond the body consciousness, that is right.
Prabhupāda: No, no! Even the material body's there...
Dr. Patel: Guru thinks so, but what about this...
Prabhupāda: Even the material body is there, still he's to be taken as spiritual. That is the philosophy. The example is given: just like you have got an iron stick. You put it in the fire, and it becomes warm. And when it is red-hot, it is no more iron stick. It is fire. Do you accept this?
Dr. Patel: I accept it.
Prabhupāda: Then? Similarly, one who is always merged in Kṛṣṇa thought, his body is not material.
Dr. Patel: That way you say.
Prabhupāda: Yes! Yes, that is the way.
Dr. Patel: Now I understand.
Prabhupāda: Because his material body is not working. That is stopped. He's working simply spiritually. Therefore his body is spiritual. The same example: it has become so hot, red-hot, that it is no more working as iron rod. It is working as fire.
Dr. Patel: Because it burns anybody who touches it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So guru also does the same thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: He electrifies anybody who touches him. So we touch your feet. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Therefore, therefore he has no material body.
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupāda: It is aparādha. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. This is forbidden. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Arcye śilā-dhīr... Just like everyone knows... The atheist class will say, "Oh, here is a stone statue, and these rascals are worshiping as Kṛṣṇa."
Dr. Patel: That is wrong.
Prabhupāda: So everyone knows that is a stone statue. But we are so fool that we are worshiping a stone statue? Therefore this is offense. Arcye śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara... Similarly guru. Although he's working, moving just like ordinary human being, one should not consider that he's ordinary human being. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ.
Dr. Patel: That is how the guru can be accepted by...
Prabhupāda: Everyone knows that "Here is a stone statue." Then so many hundred and thousands of people are coming to worship that stone statue? Somebody can argue. The atheist will argue. And when... So... We have got millions of temples. Especially in South India and Jagannātha Purī and many where. So are they going, spending so much money to worship a statue? That is forbidden. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Guru should not be considered in that way. If he's actually guru.
Dr. Patel: Guru, guru's śakti on his disciples comes from...
Prabhupāda: The same.
Dr. Patel: ...either way. Where the śiṣya draws his power and guru gives it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but if he has no power, how he can give?
Dr. Patel: But... That is what I say. So we have to take guru as God.
Prabhupāda: So therefore guru as God, not distinction that guru is so much God, and he is so much God.
Dr. Patel: I don't say distinction. I...
Prabhupāda: No, you said that distinction of body, distinction...
Dr. Patel: I did not say that. You have to understood it differently.
Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not. It is the guru principle we are talking. That is about guru.
Dr. Patel: I want to learn from you.
Prabhupāda: I am not guru. I am... I am... This is... The guru has no material body. Just like the statue is not material, similarly, guru's body is not material.
Dr. Patel: You say that those gurus who appear as material body, you are not to take it as a material body. Say that way. Because we are little...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not to take it. It is actually. If it is material body, then how they are getting benefits? If it is a material body. The same example: if it is iron rod, how it is burning? It is fire. When there is burning, you must assume it is fire. Why do you take, "Oh, it is iron rod"? Phalena paricīyate. Phalena paricīyate. By the result you have to... Therefore it is said, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. We, we have no direct contact with Bhagavān, but guru, being representative of Bhagavān, if we satisfy guru, then Bhagavān becomes... Identical. Therefore it is warned: vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Similarly, vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Here is a European Vaiṣṇava, he's Indian Vaiṣṇava, it is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava and śūdra Vaiṣṇava." No. That is also, that is also offense.
Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Vaiṣṇava is Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, to consider guru's body as material, that is also wrong.
Dr. Patel: I read somewhere that...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Some...
Dr. Patel: ...you have got to take guru as God from this point of view,...
Prabhupāda: That...
Dr. Patel: ...that he's ātmā. You are worshiping God...
Prabhupāda: No, no. This is Māyāvāda.
Dr. Patel: Whatever vāda it is, I mean, that is...
Prabhupāda: The Māyāvāda says, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is God within you." The Dr. Radhakrishnan said, the rascal. "Kṛṣṇa is within. The outside is material body." You have read that.
Dr. Patel: There is no within and without... I have not read that. There is no within and without so far God is concerned. God is everywhere.
Prabhupāda: And similarly, similarly, guru also—no within, no without. Otherwise how we can say, sākṣād-dharitvena. Directly, if you make distinction, how he can be directly?
Dr. Patel: Within, without is (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. But he has attained that position on account of his being very, very dear to God. Because doing God's work. Eh? God says, "Surrender unto Me." Guru is preaching... That is real guru. He's preaching, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say, "Surrender unto Me."
Dr. Patel: No guru says so.
Prabhupāda: All rascals says. All rascals say.
Dr. Patel: But rascals are not gurus.
Prabhupāda: No, no. The gurus, so-called gurus, there are. These Māyāvādīs, all they say. "I am God."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nārāyaṇa.
Prabhupāda: "Let me now have rāsa dance. Send your children. Send your wife, send your daughter. We'll dance." These are all rascals, Māyāvādīs. Māyāvādī-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). This is the statement of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. As soon as one hears the statement of Māyāvādī, he's doomed, finished. He's finished.
Dr. Patel: You have been bracketing so many good people like that, with the bad, and I feel strongly...
Prabhupāda: Where is good people?! Where is good people?!
Dr. Patel: ...about this philosophy of yours.
Prabhupāda: All rascals! Let them come! Let them come. Yes! I shall kick on their face!!! I am so strong. Where is good man?!
Dr. Patel: You see...
Prabhupāda: I have already kicked already that... What is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bala Yogi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) and (Hindi). And he's a dog! In public meeting.
Dr. Patel: I meet with all these fellows. We talk of general philosophy.
Prabhupāda: So we have got some discrimination! Our is only point: If anybody is a Māyāvādī, he's a dog. Kick him on his face!! That's all.
Dr. Patel: Māyāvādī means those people who...
Prabhupāda: No! Māyāvādī means Māyāvādī. That's all. No explanation.
Dr. Patel: What do you mean by Māyāvāda?
Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī means who thinks like that...
Dr. Patel: All right, now, that is right.
Prabhupāda: ..."Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is different from His body." That is Māyāvādī.
Dr. Patel: There is no body of Kṛṣṇa. Whole thing is body.
Prabhupāda: So Māyāvādī does not know that.
Dr. Patel: And those people...
Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī. They think that Kṛṣṇa comes with a "māyā body." Therefore they are Māyāvādīs.