Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). They get relief from the material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogīs. They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. And the first class are the bhaktas. They talk personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti.
Satish Kumar: Hmm. You feel the presence.
Prabhupāda: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking.
Satish Kumar: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhaktīnī?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was devotee . . . she was a devotee.
Satish Kumar: Yes. She had this quality of presence.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Satish Kumar: Yes. Direct dialogue.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhārī"?
Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper?
Satish Kumar: Resurgence.
Prabhupāda: Resurgence.
Satish Kumar: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And that gentleman I talked with, he was also very intelligent, John. So this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because we are . . . in the jñānīs, they are also in the third grade, so how much the position of the bhaktas? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one gets the brahma-jñāna, brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and identifies himself, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannātmā: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety.
They have nothing to do with this material world. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). After being brahma-bhūta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas—the real bhaktas, śuddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas, they have got three stages—kaniṣṭha, madhyama and uttama. Just, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikārī, not to remain in the lowest stage, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.
Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. It's a very high stage, too, reach.
Prabhupāda: How long you are here, in London?
Satish Kumar: I have been on and off for two, three years.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Satish Kumar: And I will stay two or three more years.
Prabhupāda: So, you are family man?
Satish Kumar: Yes, this is my wife.
Prabhupāda: You're married here.
Satish Kumar: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Children?
Satish Kumar: One child.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Satish Kumar: And we have called our child Mukti.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing . . . (laughter) Rūpa Gosvāmī says, bhukti-mukti-piśācī yāvat hṛdi vartate katham bhakti-sukham ātra (CC Madhya 19.176). Manifested, like that. That so long the piśācī . . . piśācī, you know?
Satish Kumar: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: The piśācī of bhukti and mukti. Bhukti means karmī's business, "I shall enjoy."
Satish Kumar: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Bhukti. And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as piśācī.
Satish Kumar: Really?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satish Kumar: Ah, piśācī is witch.
Prabhupāda: Bhukti-mukti-piśācī yāvad hṛdi vartate.
Satish Kumar: "As long as . . .?"
Prabhupāda: "So long these two piśācīs are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti?"
Satish Kumar: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satish Kumar: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti, and then you can . . .
Prabhupāda: You have to go to mukti, and then bhakti. Just as I explained:
- brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
- na śocati na kāṅkṣati
- samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
- (BG 18.54)
Satish Kumar: Ah.
Prabhupāda: So after being mukta. The bhakta is already mukta. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:
- māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa
- bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate
- sa guṇān samatītyaitān
- brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
- (BG 14.26)
So a bhakta is already brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). So he hasn't got to ask for mukti. He's already mukta. Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura says,
- bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā yadi bhagavan syād
- daivena phalati divya-kiśora-mūrtiḥ
- muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān . . .
- (Kṛṣṇa-karṇāmṛta 107)
And dharmārtha-kāma-samaya-pratīkṣāḥ. Dharmārtha-kāma, this is karmī's position. And mokṣa is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional attitude upon You, my Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And this dharmārtha-kāma, they're at my command." Simply by bhakti. The people are after dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90), so these four things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān dharmārtha-kāma-samaya-pratīkṣāḥ.