Dayānanda: If God is meant to be propitiated, then why is it that we have so many things for our enjoyment? You say that everything is for God's enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, God has given you enjoyment, but you cannot enjoy yourself, alone. There are other sons, they will also enjoy. If you interfere with other sons, then you'll be punished. God's son is the lamb, and you let him enjoy, you also enjoy. But if you interfere with his right, then you'll be punished. That is God's law. Sarva-yoniṣu, God is not only your father, he's father of the lamb also. So if by your brute force you want to kill the poor lamb, then you'll be punished. This is natural. You have got your food, you produce your foodgrain and you eat. Why should you eat another animal? God says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), you must eat to become strong. But that does not mean you'll eat another brother. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1), whatever He has designated, you eat like that. You are human being, you can produce food. You grow foodstuffs, rice, wheat, fruit, flowers, vegetables. That is allowed. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, you produce anna, why should you kill an animal? And offer it to Kṛṣṇa, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). He never says that "You give Me an animal." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. So you produce patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam, and offer to Kṛṣṇa, and then take.
Dayānanda: In our experience we have no understanding how this can be practical, because we think that meat is good for our strength. How can we be strong?
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are not human being, you are animal. If you cannot produce your food, uncivilized animals, they cannot produce their food. But you are given the chance of becoming human being, if you cannot produce your food, if you do not know how to cook food, how to offer it, then you are not human being. You are animal. When the uncivilized man in the jungle, they did not know how to produce food, they used to kill animals. So if you want to remain in the same uncivilized status of life, then where you are human being? You have got greater intelligence, you produce your food. Why should you kill animal like the uncivilized jungle men? Your action is just like jungle man, and you are claiming to be civilized man.
Nava-yauvana: They are thinking that they are the proprietor.
Prabhupāda: That is their folly, they are not proprietor. They are not proprietor. That is already discussed. Proprietor is the Supreme Lord; you are not proprietor. That is another point. Falsely you are claiming proprietor. How you are proprietor? Everyone can claim proprietor, that is going on. Everyone is claiming proprietor and they are fighting. That is going on. And if you accept God is proprietor and we are dependent on Him, then there is no fight. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, this īśa, īśāvāsyam verse is perfectly describing, tena tyaktena, you are not proprietor. You accept things what the proprietor has given you, allotted for you. You are not proprietor. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Do not encroach upon others. Then how you become proprietor? We are falsely claiming proprietorship, we are encroaching upon others' independence. This is our business. How there can be peace? It is not possible. This property is walled, that property is walled. You cannot encroach on the other side of the wall. Then it is criminal, trespassing. The government's duty is to see that nobody's encroaching on others. Similarly, God's duty is that. That everyone is God's son, you don't encroach upon other son's right, then you'll be punished. You have got right to live and the lamb has got right to live. Why should you encroach upon his living right? Because you are strong. That is not humanity. The animal is therefore benefit. Let him live and you take the fur. You can use it for your coat, but why should you kill it? The cow is giving milk like mother, why should you kill it? This is humanity, to kill the mother? So in this way we are encroaching the rights of others, and we are becoming subject to be punished by God. This is going on. You may say there is no God, but God is there, you'll be punished. The outlaw they will say, "We don't care for government." You may say so, but government will take action. You cannot avoid it. This is humanity. Good citizenship means one who knows the laws of the state, that is good citizen. If one does not know the laws of the state, he's a fool. He's not a good citizen. One who knows the law, he keeps right and left, he knows this is the order of the government, cars should be driven on the right side or left side. He is good citizen. One who does not know the law of the state, he's not a good citizen. He's a fool, rascal. What to speak of humanity.
Dayānanda: Some people say, so we will even say, "I don't care for your rational arguments." Some people say "I don't care for your..."
Prabhupāda: Then you are animal, because animal has no rationality. Then you are animal. Better not to talk with you. What is the use of talking with you? You are animal. You have no rationality. Man is rational animal, this is the definition. You have no rationality, therefore you are animal. What is the use of talking with you? Waste time. If you have no rationality, then you are animal. That is the difficulty. People are kept in the status of animal and they are expected human behavior. How it is possible? It is not possible. So therefore our endeavor is to bring them to the standard of humanity, real humanity. Then there will be peace, prosperity, everything all right. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You don't care for rationality, that means you are animal. Man is rational animal, that is the definition. If you have no rationality... Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ... This is Vedic injunction. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samāna. Anyone who has no religious principles, he's animal. Therefore you'll find in human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Iran or India or Europe, there is some religion. Because without religion they are animals. Animal has no religion. The animal is... Dog is dog. It is not a Christian dog or a Hindu dog. Hindu, Christian comes when they are human being. So a civilized society must be the rationality, religion. Religion is rationality, to accept God. What is religion? Religion means to accept God.
Dayānanda: They say that "You may have so many wonderful philosophies, but our desire is just to enjoy life."
Prabhupāda: That means animal. That means animal. Animal has no philosophy.
Nava-yauvana: Also they say that religions are the causes of war. In Lebanon now the Christians are killing the Muslims and the Muslims are killing the Christians in the name of...
Prabhupāda: And the Communists are killing capitalists and capitalists are killing Communists. What is that? Is that religion? Then? How you can stop war? Because you are animal, you fight, you can give some name, either on religious ground or this philosophical ground. But because you are animal you will fight. You can give a different name. That is different thing. But because you are dogs, you'll fight. The real religion is why they will fight? Religion means to accept God. So if you are Muslim, I am Hindu, if I accept God, if You accept God, then where is fight? If we accept that God is the proprietor, God is the father, then where is the question of fight? Because we are not religious, therefore fight. Otherwise, if you accept God is the supreme father, if I accept God is the supreme, why fight? We have to go down?
Nava-yauvana: Everything you say, Prabhupāda, makes sense. Everything you say makes sense.
Prabhupāda: Yes, our preaching should be sensible, then people will accept. After all, they are human being. There is sense, but by force they are covering the sense. So we have to awaken them by handling carefully, that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo gauracānda bole. Who are... Uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varan nibodhata. They are sleeping. We have awaken them, that's it. That is preaching. Even the animal-killing, where it is absolutely necessary... So according to any religious principle, there is God. Just like who was telling me? You were telling me about the lamb killing? The injunction is the mouth(?) should be toward Mecca. Is it like that?
Nava-yauvana: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So because there is no other way... Suppose in the desert, what they'll do? They must eat something, but still there is sense of God, there is some regulative principle.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is also principle of sacrifice with very strict regulations.
Prabhupāda: So in this way God consciousness must be there. That is civilization.
Hari-śauri: You want to go down, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Hari-śauri: Jaya. (devotees offer obeisances) (end)