Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, as long as people are suffering, they can't realize that they are God.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot stop the suffering. You are unable. You are also suffering from the same disease. So don't say that jagat mithyā. If they are suffering, that's a fact. Then how do you say it is mithyā, it is false? If it is mithyā, then why you are affected by the suffering? There are so many questions. That means not realization. Contradictory. If you feel the suffering, then why you call it mithyā? It is fact. Why do you say it is mithyā? That means you have no realization. You are accepting suffering as mithyā. We say suffering is not mithyā, it is fact, but if you want to save from suffering, then you get out of this material world. We don't say that, that suffering is mithyā or this world is mithyā. We don't say that. We are offering this flower to Kṛṣṇa, not as mithyā; it is a means of service. Why shall I say it is mithyā? By offering... Kṛṣṇa says patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). By offering a little flower. How can I say this is mithyā? Māyāvādī's philosophy, it is mithyā. With mithyā we can approach the satya? By hundreds of false we can make one truth? Kṛṣṇa says that "If you offer Me a little flower," so how can I say this is mithyā? It is not mithyā. It is satya. When it is satya? When it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. And when you take it for your sense gratification, that is mithyā. That is mithyā. You cannot enjoy it. If you enjoy it, then go to hell. If you offer it to Kṛṣṇa, you go to Him. So how can I say it is mithyā? You cannot approach Kṛṣṇa with something mithyā. Then Kṛṣṇa becomes mithyā. There are so many things to be studied. We don't say like that. We find there is relationship of Kṛṣṇa with everything. When we find this beautiful rose, we find the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. By Kṛṣṇa's intelligence it has come out so nice, fragrant, beautiful. They say it is made by nature. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa's says mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). So under Kṛṣṇa's direction nature has made it so beautiful. That is a fact. Therefore I find there is hand of Kṛṣṇa in this flower. So Kṛṣṇa has made this, this is Kṛṣṇa's property, it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. We are not offering something mithyā to Kṛṣṇa. It is fact.
- prāpañcikatayā buddhyā
- hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ
- mumukṣubhiḥ parityago
- phalgu vairāgyaṁ kathyate
It is made by Kṛṣṇa. If you say, "No, no, I don't touch this flower," so what is credit there? You have not prepared it. You touch or not touch, it doesn't matter. If you say, "No, no, it is material. I don't touch." You may not touch it, but you do not know it is not material, it is spiritual, it is made by Kṛṣṇa. So you have to study deeply. Everything is... Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of everything." So the flower is also from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from whom everything is emanating. The flower is also within the everything. How can I say it is false? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Kulādri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said we can't understand Brahman unless we understand Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding. And without Kṛṣṇa, if you understand brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, then you fall down.
Kulādri: But it seems then you have to come to the full understanding before it does any good.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means those who are simply trying to understand Brahman, they are not understanding.
Kulādri: Then what does it mean gradual process, gradual advancement in transcendental realization?
Prabhupāda: Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramātmā understanding little higher. And Bhagavān understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Māyāvādīs, they do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta (SB 10.2.32). Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky... Go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say "so'ham," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky. Will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, then even Brahman has to be understood in relationship to Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Devotee (1): Even Brahman has to be understood...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real understanding.