Prabhupāda: Now, you are saying that Kṛṣṇa says that incorporeal. But Kṛṣṇa says that "Anyone who thinks that I am incorporeal, that he is a fool."
Guest (1): Quite right. Lord Kṛṣṇa as such, if anybody calls Him incorporeal, he's a fool.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): Because He has a body, He has taken birth from Devaki. And incorporeal does not...
Prabhupāda: Therefore the Kṛṣṇa says that one has to understand that what is Kṛṣṇa's birth. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ. So that tattvataḥ is not yo. Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa actually, he becomes immediately liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Anyone simply who understands Kṛṣṇa, he becomes immediately liberated. If you understood Kṛṣṇa correctly, then you are liberated person. You have nothing to ask from me.
Guest (2): It is what...
Prabhupāda: No, that's all. Then you are liberated person. You have nothing to ask from me. I am for those who are conditioned, but you are liberated, so you have nothing to ask from me.
Guest (4): Rest of us, we persons, go.
Prabhupāda: Then you are liberated; you have nothing to go. If you are liberated, then you have nothing to seek, knowledge.
Guest (5): Thank you for listening. Time and place. He's already said that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are liberated, you have nothing to go anywhere because you know everything.
Guest (2): May I again submit with the honor that you have bestowed on me of having said that I am already liberated according to the version of Gītā...
Prabhupāda: If you have understood Kṛṣṇa, then you are liberated.
Guest (2): I still feel... I still feel...
Prabhupāda: Then you haven't got to seek knowledge.
Guest (2): I still feel that...
Prabhupāda: You be satisfied with yourself. You are liberated.
Guest (5): That means those who are to follow you are not liberated.
Prabhupāda: I am not follow... Er, I don't say, "Follow me." I say, "Follow Kṛṣṇa." Why...? Don't mistake that. I say... My vision is that Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me." I say, "You and everyone, surrender to Kṛṣṇa."
Guest (5): That you make wherever you are spreading, not...
Prabhupāda: Well, that is my business. Where I am spreading or not, that is my business. But I am saying this, that Kṛṣṇa says you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." I say, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Is there any difference?
Guest (2): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Is it not according to Gītā? Is it not according to Gītā? If I say, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa"...
Guest (5): ...if each and every person has an individual identity of (indistinct) soul above the body consciousness and unless you treat him as equal, there is little...
Prabhupāda: No, nobody... You cannot say... Even though they are equal, you can see equal but they are not equal. They are not equal. There are three guṇas, and in the Bhagavad-gītā that is analyzed, that "These persons are in the sattva-guṇa, these persons are in the rajo-guṇa, these persons are in..."
Guest (5): That is not personality of the ātmā, but the ātmā is everybody's soul.
Prabhupāda: That's all... First of all we have...
Guest (5): If you have potency to rise and go higher and higher...
Prabhupāda: You are not on the ātmā stage; I am not in the ātmā stage. You are in the bodily stage.
Guest (5): Both, body and soul, together...
Prabhupāda: Then if you are in the ātmā stage, then you have no argument with me. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Guest (5): But argument, you have admitted that...
Prabhupāda: No, there is no argument. That will stop. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54).
Guest (5): It is on arguments get down...
Prabhupāda: No. If you are... Just see. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, that:
- vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
- brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
- śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
- paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
- (BG 5.18)
If you are in the spiritual platform, then you will see a learned brāhmaṇa, a dog, a caṇḍāla, a elephant—they are in the same stage. So there is no argument because he sees a dog and the learned brāhmaṇa, the same position.
Guest (3): That is the correct position.
Prabhupāda: That is correct position. But if you find that "Swamiji is not on the standard," that means you are not in the posit..., sama-darśinaḥ even.
Guest (3): You mean if a person commits a murder, a sinner...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very high stage. That is very high stage, sama-darśinaḥ.
Guest (3): No, no. If a person commits a murder, you are seeing...
Prabhupāda: So why you see, you are seeing, "Commits murder?" Why don't you see that it is Kṛṣṇa is acting there? Why you say that "commits murder?"
Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa is getting the sin committed.
Prabhupāda: Sama-darśinaḥ means you have no distinction what is sin and what is...
Guest (1): Sama-darśinaḥ means to treat everyone as equal.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Sama darśinaḥ means there is no distinction between sin and virtue. That is sama-darśinaḥ. As soon as you see, "This is virtue, and this is sin," it is not sama-darśinaḥ.