Yogeśvara: There's a theory of the psychologists that—in some ways it's similar to our idea—that people are conditioned, that according to their environment, according to their upbringing, according to their parentage and so on, they have a kind of way of acting and thinking. So their argument is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just another kind of conditioning, that you leave one kind of conditioning, a material conditioning, but then you also enter into another kind of conditioning when you live in the temple.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is conditioning, certainly. The position is that you must be under certain condition. That is your position. So if you become conditioned by God, that is your perfection. And if you become conditioned by māyā, that is your trouble. You must be conditioned. That is your position. You cannot be independent. And therefore, if you become naturally conditioned, then that is your happy life. Just as child, he must be conditioned. But when he is conditioned by his parents, that is his perfection of life. Your position is that you must be conditioned. Why you are thinking to be independent? That is your rascaldom. You should always know that "I must be conditioned. That is my life." Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). Condition. Still conditioned, but daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, under the spiritual nature. That is Mahātmā. Mahātmā is not independent. He is also conditioned. So first of all, we must understand that our natural position is to be conditioned. Now, why, where I shall be conditioned? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). You condition here. "You become conditioned by Me. Then you will be happy." Those who are thinking that "We shall not be conditioned," they are still in māyā. You cannot be without condition.
- nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām
- eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān
- (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)
So that one God is supplying the necessities of life. That is His condition. Suppose you are giving me all necessities of life. Then it is, the best part of my valor is to live under your control. That's all. I cannot be independent. It is not possible. That is the wrong philosophy, that these rascals are thinking of complete independence. That means they are becoming more and more conditioned by this material external energy.
Yogeśvara: Their program is that if a child's problems come from the wrong kind of conditioning, then he should be given the opportunity in childhood of a good family, good education, and so on, and that way there won't be bad reaction later on in life.
Prabhupāda: That means he should be given chance for better conditioning. Conditioning must go on. It cannot be said that "Let the child be given freedom." No.
Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's what they say. They say it's freedom when there is a lack of bad conditioning.
Prabhupāda: That is... Bad condition is good conditioning. Where is freedom? From bad conditioning you are suggesting good conditioning. That is not freedom. Just like you are in the prison house, you are badly conditioned, but the so-called freedom—you are still conditioned under the laws of the state. You are not free. But from bad conditioning to good conditioning. And if you obey the state laws, then you are good citizen. But you are conditioned. How you think of freedom? That is your foolishness. Just like a servant. He is in some mercantile firm. He is trying to seek out some government service. But he cannot be free.
Yogeśvara: So in other words, they would say your idea is to give them a better conditioning.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, not better conditioning. You must know what is the best condition and take that condition. The best condition is to be under the control of Kṛṣṇa. That is your best first-class way.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You said that in the Bhagavad-gītā when it speaks of being desireless, it means that actually one is desiring for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye: (Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4) "I don't want this." "Don't want, don't want, don't want" does not mean he becomes negative. "I want Kṛṣṇa. So many things, 'Don't want,' but actually I want Kṛṣṇa. And that is my life." And not that "Don't want, don't want, don't want, then become zero." Not that.
Yogeśvara: No, they also say we know what we want. We want food for everyone, we want...
Prabhupāda: No, no, he does not know. Therefore he is changing from this place to that place. He does not know. If he had known, then he would have surrendered immediately to Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect. He does not know.
Yogeśvara: But the idea is "We can accomplish the same good results even without Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: That he does not know. He is a fool. He does not know what is a good result. He will change again. He is a rascal. He is putting himself in this condition; again he'll desire another condition. That is the change of body. That is his wanting. Sometimes he's taking the body of a dog, sometimes he is taking the body of a demigod. Bhramatam upary adhaḥ (1.5.18). Down, just like, what is that? Merry-go-round.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Ferris wheel, ferris wheel goes up and down.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes "I am so up," and again come down. This is going on. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān. Therefore, in this way, going round, one who is very, very fortunate, he, guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151), he comes to the devotional life by the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. This is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. They are under the myth, under the spell of māyā. This is going on.
Yogeśvara: Well, they say "You are distributing food, and we are also distributing food. You are opening schools, and we are also opening schools."
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are opening school for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore the rascals, they cannot understand what is bhakti and what is karma. Bhakti looks like karma, but it's not karma. It is bhakti. They cannot understand what is bhakti. Bhakti means the same karma, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is bhakti. Just like the same fight, battlefield, but because it was done for Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna is accepted, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: (BG 4.3) "You are My devotee. You are My very dear." But what did he do? His business was to fight. He fought, that's all. But fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is the secret. He did not change his fighting capacity as a warrior. But he changed his mentality. His mentality was that "Why shall I kill my kinsmen?" But Kṛṣṇa wanted, "Oh, that's all right." So therefore service is for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Not for his sense gratification. Karmī means sense gratification, and bhakta means Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. That is the difference. Sense gratification is there. When you do it for your personal sense grati..., it is karma. And you do it for Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification, it is bhakti. So therefore they look similar, but the quality is different. Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Dhare prema nāma. The gopīs, they acted like prostitutes, but the center was Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, ramyā kacid upāsanā vrajavadhu-vargena ya kalpita (?): "Oh there is no more better mode of worship than it was conceived by the gopīs." What is their conception? Prostitution, that's all. Simple prostitute. Kṛṣṇa was a beautiful boy and they were attracted by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa. They wanted Him as their husband, lover, to dance with them. That is the gopīs. And these rascals are taking that "This is very good. Kṛṣṇa also did like this. So let us do; gather some girls and dance, and we become Kṛṣṇa." This is Māyāvāda, Therefore Vyāsadeva has devoted nine cantos just to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then try to understand what is the gopīs' behavior with Kṛṣṇa. But these rascals jump over it. Sahajiyās. Jump over Kṛṣṇa's dealing with the gopīs. And that is Bhāgavata. Because rascals, they shall remain rascal.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: If the Māyāvādī accepts the principle that bhakti is good, but at the end he throws it away, will he have a change of heart?
Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. That is Māyāvāda. They have no conception of the eternity of bhakti. That is Māyāvāda.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Will the change in heart come about for such persons because they're somehow associated with Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Just like Kaṁsa associated with Kṛṣṇa always, their position is like that. That is not bhakti. Bhakti is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167), favorable, not to reject Kṛṣṇa or kill Kṛṣṇa, and think of Kṛṣṇa, "How to kill Him? How to kill Him? How to kill Him?" That is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but that is not favorable. Therefore it is not bhakti. But they get the salvation because they have some way or other thought of Kṛṣṇa. Impersonal salvation. They are not allowed to enter into the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa.
Satsvarūpa: In the beginning of devotional service, the concentration is on the service more than on Kṛṣṇa the person.
Satsvarūpa: But then gradually, as we serve and serve and concentrate on the service, then there's realization.
Prabhupāda: Yes, realization comes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Of who we're serving.
Prabhupāda: The disciple serves Kṛṣṇa under the direction of spiritual master. Vidhi-mārga, regulative principles. Vidhi-mārga, rāga-mārga. (break) ...gunarna jata nat krta mukha santi (?). So, I think it is mud.
Satsvarūpa: Here it's getting more and more moist, dew. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...friend, but what is my business? My business is to serve the senses, that's all. Kāmādīnām, kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya, mada, the six kinds of sense gratification I am doing. This is actual... Just like this man, he is thinking he is very big man, but he's servant of his dog. Is it not? But he is thinking that he is very big man. He does not think that "What is my business? To serve this dog in the morning." He has no sense. Because he has no prescribed duty to serve Kṛṣṇa... He must serve, and therefore he must serve dog. That is his position. But still, he's thinking, "Why these foolish people are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? I am serving the dog. I am very big man." He has become very big man by serving the dog, and we are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa. We...
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: ...even though it is covered by smoke.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That verse.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That even though one's activities in the material world are covered by faults, still one should perform his activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In India there is a Hindi proverb, bekase begar achar (?)... (end)