Prabhupāda: Śruti, from the Vedas. Veda-pramāṇa. Śruti-pramāṇa. That is pramāṇa. And nonsense, speculative, that is not pramāṇa. That is speculation.
Brahmānanda: They make some theory, and they become very complacent, that "Oh, now, this is it."
Prabhupāda: "Now we are advanced." And next year, again advanced. Next year again advanced.
Dr. Patel: Real scientists don't think that. You must not believe that. Real scientist say, "This may be like this."
Prabhupāda: But who . . .
Dr. Patel: It is their opinion.
Prabhupāda: How to know who is real and who is . . .?
Dr. Patel: They are learning. After all, they are learning. They have not reached that. They are not yuktas. They are in the process of getting it.
Prabhupāda: So why they say there is no God?
Dr. Patel: Who says that there is no God? Scientists don't say so. Some of them may be saying. Jagadish Chandra Bose did say so? He was a great scientist. Did he say so? No. If a few scientists say there is no God, that does not mean all the scientists. We are practically all of us, scientists, this architect, this Mr. Joshi, myself. We don't say there is no God. So, sir, don't say that scientists say.
Prabhupāda: Because you have become Vaiṣṇava, that is the . . .
Dr. Patel: Not . . . even before that.
Prabhupāda: Unless one becomes Vaiṣṇava . . .
Dr. Patel: A real scientist finds God's working in every cell, every atom, every molecule.
Prabhupāda: No, no, our point is unless one has become Vaiṣṇava, he remains a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is your saying.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement of Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is a fool, rascal. That' s all. This is the conclusion. We are fool, undoubtedly, but we take the words of Kṛṣṇa. He is not fool.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) No, but He says, ye tu sarvāṇī karmāṇi mayi sannyasya mat-parāḥ (BG 12.6).
Prabhupāda: The mat-parāḥ, this is mat-parāḥ. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept it. That is mat-parāḥ. Mat-parāḥ means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, accept it. That's all. That is mat-parāḥ. And if I say, "I don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, whether He was existing," that is not mat-parāḥ.
Dr. Patel: That is different.
Prabhupāda: That is different.
Dr. Patel: But Kṛṣṇa says through so many things. Kṛṣṇa says through every leaf, every atom . . .
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: . . . every molecule and every living cell, He says what He is.
Prabhupāda: So everyone, our . . .
Dr. Patel: That is what the scientists think.
Prabhupāda: . . . scholars, they think like that, "Kṛṣṇa is fictitious. This Bhagavad-gītā was imagined," as if Kṛṣṇa speaking and Arjuna hearing, and there was no war as Kurukṣetra. This is their reply. There was no five thousand years.
Dr. Patel: Suppose, sir, it may be like that, as they say, but this is an acme of the knowledge. That's all. Even though it may be fabricated, it is the acme.
Prabhupāda: Acme of the knowledge you are taking, but you don't believe the source of knowledge. You are so acme of the knowledge. You don't believe in the source of the knowledge, so where is knowledge? That is darkness. Tama and jyoti—two things are there. This material world is tama, darkness, because here actually there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is almost absent. And jyoti means there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That we were discussing last night. Taṭastha-śakti. Taṭastha . . . the jīvas, they are in the marginal position between tama and jyoti.
Dr. Patel: Tamas is dark and jyoti is light.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So the jīva is between these two things. Therefore they are called taṭastha, marginal. Sometimes you may be in darkness and sometimes you may be in jyoti. That is your position. So those who are, I mean to say, accepting Kṛṣṇa's word, they are in jyoti. And those who are interpreting Kṛṣṇa in darkness, they are in darkness. Unless one has accepted Kṛṣṇa as He is, he is in darkness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa describing him mūḍha, narādhama. That man might have been in the jyoti, but he is losing the chance. Therefore he is mūḍha, narādhama. He had the chance of understanding Kṛṣṇa, but he is neglecting willfully. Therefore mūḍha, naradhāma. Men so much learned? Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15): that learning has no meaning. That is another darkness. A person, without being learned, he is thinking, "I am learned." That is another darkness. That is another darkness.