Śyāmasundara: His idea is that all lower forms of life strive to emulate the higher forms of life.
Prabhupāda: That is natural. Everyone wants to become higher than what he is. Because he is trying to become master. He is trying to... His whole problems is that he is trying to be master. So he comes to master to some extent. Suppose he is working in an office, he is a head clerk, master of several clerks. So he is not satisfied. He wants to become a superintendent. When he becomes a superintendent, he wants to be under-secretary. When he is under-secretary, he wants to become secretary. When he becomes a secretary, he wants to become minister. When he is made minister, then he wants to be the president. And when he becomes a president, he wants to control all over the world, just like your Nixon. So this progressive ambition is there in the material world because any materialistic man is implanted with the idea that "I shall become like Kṛṣṇa." So when he fails everything, then he wants to merge into the Kṛṣṇa. Māyāvāda philosophy. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. He does not know that... He is already Brahman, but he thinks that "I am the Supreme Brahman. I am moving the sun. I am moving the..." Meditating. He is moving the sun. He is moving... Just another imitate. That is the last snare of māyā. Māyā is giving him allurement that "You become a minister, you become secretary, you become a big merchant, you become a Birla. You..." "Become become become." (S)he is always dictating, and he is working under the dictation of māyā. The last dictation is, "Then you have failed all these things. Better you become God." (laughter) So he thinks, "I am God." And māyā is still kicking. As soon as God gets some toothache, he'll have to, another... So he goes... "After all, what kind of God you are? You come here for toothache cure." This is another man.
Śyāmasundara: And actually it may be true that the lower forms are trying to emulate the higher forms, but it is also the reverse is true. Just like the hippies, they are trying to emulate the hogs.
Prabhupāda: Well, the hippies, they are nonsense. What is the value of their anything? They have no value. They are crazy, mad fellows. That's all. There is no philosophy, nothing of the sort.
Śyāmasundara: He calls... What you said is that māyā is the urge within nature to desire the next step of evolution.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: He wants this, he wants that. Is that right?
Prabhupāda: Next step... No. Up to human form of life, by nature one is making progress automatically. One after this, one after this. That evolution. Jalajā nava... Just like from aquatics, you become trees, plants. (aside:) Telephone. Telephone. Somebody go. From trees, you become insect. From insect, you become birds or reptiles. From birds, you become beast. From beast, you become a human being. This is going on by nature's way. Just like a goat. A goat has to live in this body for certain years. Then he becomes something, other animal, and he has to live in that body for some years. Then he becomes another body. This is change . In this way he comes to the human form of life when his consciousness is developed. Now, when... Amongst the human form of life, there are many species of human form of life. So when one comes to..., I may say, in India, when he's born in India, that is the highest perfectional point because there is Vedic knowledge. So he can take advantage of the Vedic knowledge. And by taking advantage of Vedic knowledge, he understands that "I am part and parcel of God. Therefore my real business is to go back to God. Why I am suffering in this material world?" That is perfectional stage.
Śyāmasundara: But the urge to improve oneself, to attain the next stage...
Prabhupāda: This is the urge for improvement. Kṛṣṇa says, God says, that "All living entities are My part and parcels." This instruction can be accepted only by human beings, not the cats and dogs. Although He claims that "Every living entity is My part and parcel," the cats and dogs, they have no capacity to understand these, I mean to say, utterances of the Personality of Godhead. Even he has got an ear. You are hearing, a dog may hear. But you can capture; the dog cannot capture. Due to his lower grade of body, he cannot. So in this higher grade of body, the Vedic instructions are there. Now you can make your choice. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). As Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that "Whatever you like you can do." So now it depends upon you. If you don't accept the real progressive life, understand Kṛṣṇa and surrender unto Him, then you will go back.
Śyāmasundara: Is it not that because our real nature is perfect that we're always striving to become perfect again? Striving to reach that point again?
Prabhupāda: Yes, your nature is perfect. Perfect means you have got independence also. So you can perfectly misuse also, independence. That is perfect.
Śyāmasundara: But there is always that urge, even among the lower animals, to improve themselves, be promoted.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is being done by nature. That is evolution. Darwin has taken this idea from the Vedas, but he has no soul idea.
Śyāmasundara: But he mentions the point, what is that urge? Why do I want to improve? What is that urge that makes me want to...
Prabhupāda: It is not his urge. Nature is giving him the impetus. Just like when you are young, there is no sex urge. When you are a small boy, there is no sex urge, but as soon as you come to a certain stage, say, sixteen years, you immediately... The sex urge is there within you, but it was not developed in your childhood. But as soon as you go, come to the youth-hood, there is. Similarly, the perfection of consciousness is there, but unless you come to the stage of human being, that is not developed.
Śyāmasundara: In the animals it may take the form of trying to survive. That's all. The animals want to survive. They want to live.
Prabhupāda: Their only business is how to eat, how to sleep. Where to get eating, eatable things. That is their business. They have no other business.
Śyāmasundara: It is said that the low form of striving to improve...
Prabhupāda: That is struggle for existence you can say. They are simply trying to live. They have no other ambition. That's all. But if a man..., if the living soul, after having come to the stage of human being, if he also simply tries for these four things, eating, sleeping, mating and defending, then he is no better than animal. So nowadays in the modern civilization, simply these things are taught: how you can live comfortably with a car, with a bungalow...
Śyāmasundara: So the urge, the urge to improve or to advance...
Prabhupāda: (aside, Hindi:) Aiye aiye. Give them something, sitting place. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: The urge to advance is there in the human more developed. How does that...?
Prabhupāda: You can give this side. This side. Yes. Why not this fan is running? What is that? All right. Let them sit.
Śyāmasundara: In the human beings, we can see that everyone has the urge to become something better or something more.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. They can understand English. Ah, yes.
Śyāmasundara: We notice that in all human entities there is an urge to advance or improve oneself, to become something more.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That I have already explained. Because all living entities have come into this material world, their propensity is to enjoy. Enjoy. So he is enjoying one standard of life in one stage of life. But he wants more, better standard. Better standard. The spirit is enjoyment. That is the disease of material science.
Śyāmasundara: So the urge has become perverted. The urge to advance has become perverted to the urge to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: Yes, perverted, perverted. His position is to serve, but... He is serving his senses, but he's thinking that "I am enjoying." This is called māyā. Actually, he is serving his senses. Just see, to enjoy, to make money, how much they are working hard, day and night. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). They are working so hard, but because there is hope that "I shall become millionaire," he is thinking happy. Actually, he is working very hard. More than an animal. More than an animal. Animals, they work hard, but as soon as they get some food they are satisfied. But human being is not satis He will eat only that four capatis, but he is not satisfied. That is the nature's. The Bhāgavata says that human being is so passionate that he works hard, very hard, and he thinks that "I am happy." He thinks, "I am happy."
Śyāmasundara: This urge to become something more is bad.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā. That is māyā. He cannot be happy in any position. He cannot be happy. But he thinks that "I'll be happy. If I go to that place, or that position." Just like the modern scientists, they have finished their all happiness here. Now they are, they are trying, "If we go to Candraloka, then we shall be happy."