Indian man: Then all of us say when the day comes that when all of us can conquer death.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Indian man: Then that means in that case no rebirth.
Prabhupāda: Rebirth means that... You are eternal. So by karma you are put into this material world. So it is a struggle. Just like a fish, somehow or other taken from the water and put onto the land. So he's all life struggling. So he has to be put again in the water. Then his life is perfect.
Indian man: It is back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man: What is the mystery in that case of universe or divine bringing up this life?
Prabhupāda: Bringing up this life? What is the mystery to bringing one to the criminal court? What is the mystery?
Indian man: Karma.
Indian man: But we must be some start somewhere. Is it not so?
Prabhupāda: Start means, just like what is the starting point of a criminal? He wants to violate the laws and starting, criminal. You can stop it immediately and you can start immediately. It depends on you. If you violate the law, you become criminal. If you don't violate, remain in your own position. This is the start. As soon as you defy God and you try to become independent, then the starting is there immediately. And again when you surrender, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). Then you stop. So stopping and starting is in your hand. That is karma. It is not that starting is done by somebody else. You start your business. And you stop it. (break)
Indian man: No, but just in the beginning when the universe started...
Prabhupāda: This is the beginning. That beginning is always there. Just like you are a gentleman. You can become immediately criminal. This is in your hand. So you cannot find out the history because at any moment you can start.
Indian man: If the soul was once a gentleman...
Prabhupāda: Soul is eternal.
Indian man: Ah. This who took the birth of this human being or animal was a gentleman.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is gentleman by nature. But criminal by artificial means. As soon as...
Indian man: But even if you attain mokṣa is that eternal or just temporary and the until becomes lost, and then...
Prabhupāda: Mokṣa, there are two kinds of mokṣa. One, generally, they like that, to remain in impersonal Brahman.
Indian man: For a limited period.
Prabhupāda: Limited period, no. Because he cannot remain there. Just like if you go in the sky you cannot remain in the sky. If you don't get any shelter you have to come again. They are going to, trying to go to the other planets, but because they cannot, they come back again. Similarly, you are living entity, you want enjoyment. So what enjoyment you will have in the sky? You require society, friends, love, everything. So these impersonalists, their mokṣa is temporary because they think by merging into the impersonal Brahman I shall be happy. But that he cannot. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Although they go to the impersonal Brahman, but there is no ānanda. The living entity is seeking after ānanda-mayo 'bhyāsāt. By nature he is seeking ānanda. So you do not get any ānanda.