Prajāpati: As soon as we define what demoniac civilization is, then no one will support us because they'll see that they themselves are demons.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are demons they cannot understand. Just like one Christian priest went to some quarters, mine, gold mine. So he was describing that "If you do not worship Lord Jesus Christ, you will go to hell." So they asked, "What is hell?" So when he began to describe—"It is always wet. It is dark. There is no sufficient air, so on, so on"—they could not understand what is hell because they are already in the hell, in the mine. They could not make any distinction that darkness is a very horrible thing. Similarly, these demons they cannot understand what is demonism. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). What is that āsura-bhāva? Not to accept God. This is āsura-bhāva. This is demonism. This is the basic principle of... Everyone is trying to deny God. Therefore they are demons. Who was telling that the medical man is considered to be first-class authority?
Devotee: That was Prajāpati.
Prajāpati: That's what the people believe. They have more trust in medical men than they do in anything else.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But medical man also does not understand what is that thing missing which makes this body dead. And still, he is placing himself as authority, as scientific man, and people are accepting. That is demonism. He cannot explain. A man is dying. He is applying his scientific processes, what is called that gas, oxygen gas, and other injection, and in spite of doing all these things, he finds at a moment that the man is dead. And when you ask him that "In spite of your all scientific appliances, why the man is dead?" And still, he has become authority, such foolish man that this man cannot explain that in spite of all his efforts, scientifically, a man is dead. Now what he will answer? He has seen his all kinds of scientific appliances and applied but the man is dead. Now let him explain why the man is dead. Can he explain?
Prajāpati: Not to our satisfaction.
Prabhupāda: No, no, satisfaction or not satisfaction, what he will answer possibly? Now, you are scientist. You can... What he will say?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He will say that it is above his means.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are a fool. Why you are becoming authority?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He will say that "I have tried my best, but I cannot do it."
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That means you do not know. A child also tries his best, but he cannot do. That does not mean he becomes authority.
Prajāpati: He will say that there needs to be certain conditions...
Prabhupāda: What is that condition?
Prajāpati: ...for the sustenance of life.
Prabhupāda: No, no, certain conditions, that is not... That is vague. You say what is that condition. Then you are authority.
Prajāpati: Electrical charge in the heart.
Prabhupāda: Then do it, do it. Electricity is there.
Prajāpati: Well, they are able to take some people. Their heart has stopped, they seem to be dead, they inject electrical nodes in the heart and they bring them back to life.
Prabhupāda: Back to life how long?
Prajāpati: Life can continue.
Prabhupāda: Continue forever?
Prajāpati: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? He'll die. That is another thing. He'll die. Why he'll die? What is that condition? If you say, "chemical condition," now, as chemist, if you say, "The chemical condition has changed," we'll reply, "No chemical condition has changed." So produce life. No chemical condition has changed because life will come out immediately. So many germs and worms, they will come out. So where is the chemical condition of producing life is changed? How can you say? But that life is not coming. That Mr. John, his life is not coming. Therefore he is an individual soul. Otherwise the chemical condition is there. Otherwise how these germs and worms are coming out? But Mr. John is not coming. Therefore it is conclusion that "This is individual soul. He has gone, but he is not coming." But other living beings are coming out.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the condition of the soul, innumerable souls, within the body? Like the cells. All are living cells. These all contain individual souls.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So what these individual souls are doing to support the bigger soul?
Prabhupāda: No, they are living individually. Just like there are many germs in your stool. Because the stool is there, they are living. That is their perfect condition of living. That's all. But that germs has nothing to do with this individual soul, Mr. John. Just like I am living, you are living, but we are all independent different souls. They are living in their own condition, you are living in your own condition. But when you go to office to work, you find so many others are also working. But that does not mean they are dependent on your working or you are dependent on their work. But the condition is like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it looks like I am the proprietor of these souls.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you are not proprietor, nobody is proprietor. You are put into that condition by God. Real proprietor is God. You are simply placed in that condition, that's all. That is your dependence on the condition offered by God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But just like in a office, the boss is working and there are different clerks. There are secretaries helping him.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the boss is the chief man who is giving work: "You like this. You work like this. You work like this. You work like this."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I am the boss.
Prabhupāda: No, you are not boss. You are also one of the workers.
Prajāpati: Are you telling how the stomach to digest and how the hair to grow and how the...
Prabhupāda: No, you are not...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I am talking about the relationship between my, so many individual souls, the cells, and my spirit soul.
Prabhupāda: Relationship... Wherever you go, there is some relationship. That is... That inter-relationship is already there. I am walking on this sand. I have got some relationship. If the sand would have been soft, I could not walk. So the relationship is there already, intermingled. But what is the central relationship? That is wanted, to know. That is God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But when the cells, my cells in the body, they are not working, my soul goes away. As so long as I am here...
Prabhupāda: That is your theory that because the cells were working, the man was living. That is your theory. But our theory is that because he was there, the cells were working. That is our theory. Because the soul was there, therefore the cells were working. But you take... That I have already explained. You take the cause as effect, and effect as... Because you have no sufficient knowledge. Therefore in illusion, you take the cause as effect or effect as cause. You do not know what is the cause and what is the effect.
Prajāpati: But the doctors, they can say, "Oh, this man has disease of the blood. He will die in six months."
Prabhupāda: That is experience. Suppose if I can say that "If you go hundred feet, then you'll fall in the water," is that very good scientific knowledge? It is a question of experience. Why do you take it as wonderful? "Oh, he said that if you go a hundred yards, you'll fall in the water. Now I have fallen in the water." That is your foolishness. Any fool can say like that. He must have little experience, that's all. That is not very wonderful thing. Neither it is creation by him. Experience.
Prajāpati: Then they can say, "Well if we can cure this blood disease, he will live."
Prabhupāda: There was one physician in Dacca. He was... Morning, he was washing his face. So one man was going, and he was coughing. So he asked that man, "Come here. Where you are going?" So he was a cultivator—"I am going to the field." So he said, "Better go home. Don't go to the field." So he was a respectable physician, so he went back. So his students asked that, "How is that, you asked him to go home?" So he chastised his stu..., "You do not know that he is coughing and the sound is like this? He will die after eight hours." It is experience. The students did not know but he could understand, "Coughing under such and such sound, it means death after such and such time." Yes. That, kavirāja can tell. When my father died, the kavirāja said, "Now you can do the rituals because he will die before next morning." He said. And actually it so happened. He said me this about ten, eleven o'clock, and he said exactly, "Before next morning he'll die." So that is experience. If you say, "After twenty days the month of January is coming," the child cannot understand, "How father said that twenty days after, January is coming?" But it is better experience only that one can say, "Today is 10th, and after twenty days, 1st January, will come." Everything is experience but supreme experience is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore if we receive experience from Him, then our experience becomes perfect. This is our proposal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If I am the boss of my body...
Prabhupāda: You are boss of your body in the sense that you can utilize your body in any manner you like, so much. But there are other condition which is beyond your... Suppose... so long you are living, you can utilize your body, your senses, to understand the ultimate goal of life. But you cannot utilize your life in such a way that you will never die. That is not possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I am controlled also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why don't you understand that? You are controlled always. (break) You are walking. This is also controlled. At any moment you can be paralyzed, at any moment.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So even I am not the boss of my body, then?
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is said. Why don't you read Bhagavad-gītā?
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
He is being pulled by the ear, by material nature, but he is, rascal, thinking that "I am the boss." This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni. Did you not read this? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. Puffed up in false egotism, he is thinking that he is boss. That is illusion. He is not boss. But he is thinking he is boss. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. One who is thinking that "I am boss," he is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍha. By false egotism and being a rascal, he is thinking like that. And because everyone is under that impression, therefore we say generally, "Rascal. Rascal." People may be amazed, "Why this gentleman says everyone rascal?" But prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni, vimūḍhātmā. Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "Anyone who is thinking that he is boss, he's a rascal." (break) ...Scientists struggle is that he wants to stop the action of prakṛti, nature. That is his foolishness. That is not possible. You cannot become boss of the prakṛti. You are under prakṛti. The boss of prakṛti is Kṛṣṇa. māyādhīśa. (break) ...guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. You are getting different types of body on account of your association with the different modes of material nature. Why one soul has got this body, dog's body, and why one soul has got a human body? Everything is being done by prakṛti, by nature. Now in this human form of body, you get that discrimination, "What should I do?" If you act like cats and dogs in this life, then you are missing the chance. You do not take advantage of the power of discrimination. Bhagavad-gītā says, dehāntaram: "Another body one gets." So another body... And next body I can get this dog's body. But you have... In human form of life you have got the discriminating power not to get the dog's body, but you can get the body of a god. That you can do. Now it is our discrimination, "Whether I am going to get a dog's body or god's body." That you can do. This is human form of body. A dog cannot not do. He has no such discrimination power. But you can do. So if you do not do that, then you are missing the opportunity. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ (BG 9.25). This is the verse. Anywhere you like, you can go if you utilize your, this human form of body properly.
Prajāpati: Should also this be the responsibility of the government to protect people from having to take dog body?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the government's duty, that the citizens may not degrade. That is government's duty. Now, just like a father thinks, "Now, these children have come under my protection. I must see they get proper education and make advancement of life." It is the father's duty. And if the father thinks, "Let him go to hell." That's all. Nowadays fathers are doing like that. That is not father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that the citizen must make progress. But they do not know what is means by progress, what is the aim of life. They do not know. They are demonic. How they will guide? They think, like cats and dogs, "If you get fatty and you can eat more, then your life is successful." Their thinking is very poor. Simply physical strength, they think that is success. But he does not think that physical, the elephant has physical strength so much, the tiger has physical strength so much, but what is the use of their life? After all, it is an animal. But they are thinking like that, "If you get strength like an elephant or like tiger, then your life is successful." They're thinking like that. But because they do not know what is the aim of life, what is the goal of life. A dog does not know what is the aim of life. But even if I say that "This is the aim of life," it will not understand because the body is different. But a human being can understand. Therefore there are so many books of knowledge. So if they do not get proper knowledge, that means they are missing the point. (break) ...tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam: "So long one does not come to the point of understanding the spirit soul, whatever he is doing he is being defeated because the main point is missing." Like cats and dogs he is accepting this material body as self, and he is working on that platform. Therefore his life is being spoiled. (break) Our mission is to save human being from being spoiled like animals. That is our mission. The greatest humanitarian work. (break)