Guest (1): (Bengali) Gandhiji, he was politician, he was actually not devotee, and he could not understand Bhagavad-gītā. But how the name of Rāma has come when he died? The name of Rāma, Hare Rāma, has come from his last word. How it has come. It is, it is...
Prabhupāda: Practice, practice. Raghupati rāghava rājā rāma.
Guest (1): So that came at the last word.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): It is due to his pious or practice.
Prabhupāda: Practice. That will act, that will act, that will act.
Guest (1): So this was my question about how, he was not acting, but...,
Prabhupāda: No. He did not know. But because he was chanting raghupati rāghava rājā rāma, that has given him this effect, yes. On account of chanting. But he really did not understand. Just like the same example, the Mohammedan. He said "hā rāma." He wanted to speak "hārāma," but it become "hā rāma." That is the... He did not know anything about Rāma, but the name Rāma is so powerful that although he said, "hārāma," it effected. Yes. But Gandhi may not know the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā, but as he chanted "hā rāma," that has been effective.
Pearl: I wondered what "Rāma" meant when we say the mantra, Hare Rāma, you see.
Prabhupāda: Rāma means...
Guest (3): So it was not due to his pious activities, but only he was practicing.
Prabhupāda: No, that is pious activity, that is pious activity.
Guest (1): That is why at the time of death he spoke Rāma, raghupati rāghava rājā rāma.
Prabhupāda: He was a pious man.
Guest (1): He was pious man.
Prabhupāda: Undoubtedly.
Guest (1): So he chanted "Rāma" in practice.
Prabhupāda: Daily he was chanting raghupati rāghava rājā rāma. So...,
Guest (3): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Where this chanting effect will go? Yes. The chanting... Hare Kṛṣṇa. But I mean to say that he could not teach what Rāma.
Guest (1): (laughs) No.
Prabhupāda: That is his misfortune. But in spite of his misfortune, because he was practiced to chant the name of Rāma, he was pious. Although he was ignorant. He was absorbed in thought of politics. He should have, if he would have understood that Rāma is a fact, Kṛṣṇa is a fact... That he did not understand. Then he would have preached the glories of Rāma, glories of Kṛṣṇa. He took the chanting of Rāma for his political purposes. He utilized for political purpose. Just like... That is nāma-aparādha. Samaḥ śubha-kriyā mati pramāṇaḥ (?). He was trying to get some material profit by chanting the holy name of Rāma. That he got, material profit. He was the most famous politician, all over the world.
Guest (1): But he did not accept any post, you know that? At the same time...,
Prabhupāda: But he also accepted "Mahatma" although what...
Guest (1): But not political post.
Prabhupāda: That is another trick, it may be. Or he did not like. It may be. Because he was so great, what is the presidency? Presidency elected post for five years. But he was recognized all over the world as a great leader. That is greater than any president's post or prime minister's post. So that is not much. But the thing is that if he was actually aware of the importance of Rāma, that he did not. He took it, "Rāma" as some means for his political purpose. But still it effected. At the time of death he said, "Rāma." So...
Guest (1): So you think he has gone to heaven or some, what is his position?
Prabhupāda: No... But because he did not understand Rāma, therefore he cannot go to the kingdom of God. But he'll get very high position.
Guest (1): High position.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He may go to the heavenly planet
Guest (1): Still in the material world.
Śrutakīrti: He said he's still in the material world. Heavenly planets is still the material world.
Prabhupāda: Heaven is in the material world. Heaven is in the material world. You can get greater standard of life, greater duration of life, that's all. Higher standard of life. Just like Brahmā. Brahmā's one day you cannot calculate. He's so powerful, how he's created this universe. But he is in the material world. He's also a living entity like us, but very exalted. So he cannot get the post of Brahmā. But he can get life in higher planetary system. That is certain. That is explained in the, find out that verse. That is explained in the...um. That verse, yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41). But he did not understand Bhagavad-gītā, that's a fact.
Guest (1): But what about this position of Vālmīki or Rāmāyaṇa?
Prabhupāda: They went to the kingdom of God. They knew what is Rāma.
Guest (1): They knew.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not in vague understanding.
Guest (1): They wouldn't be able to write Rāmāyaṇa if he didn't understand Lord Rāmacandra?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He had meditated for sixty thousands of years.
Guest (1): But I think it was Gandhi who said that Kurukṣetra is this body, five Pāṇḍavas is the five senses and this is all interpretation concoction.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) He did not understand, that's a fact. But even this child, he does not understand, but if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, that will be effective. If he understands or not understand. It doesn't matter.
Guest (1): The name is so powerful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that?
Pradyumna: Prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān.
Prabhupāda: Ah, prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān. This is the... So puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān means heavenly planet. Prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān. You cannot go to the heavenly planet unless you are very pious. So he's promoted in heavenly planet where the duration of life is very long, standard of living is very nice. But there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What is that, prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān?
Pradyumna: Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ (BG 6.41).
Prabhupāda: Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ. For a very long time. Because to get life in the heavenly planets means at least ten thousands of years. In their calculation. Their one day is equal to six months. In that way ten thousand years. Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ. What is it? Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ?
Pradyumna: Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41).
Prabhupāda: Then, again they come down to this material world and he takes birth either in a very exalted brāhmaṇa family, śucīnām, or very rich, vaiśya family. After enjoying there, again he's given chance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And if he misses, then again he goes down. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says these are all false elevation. If I have to come again back, again I have to accept another lower grade life, then what is the profit? Kṛṣṇa gives His straight understanding, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti: (BG 4.9) You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. After the giving up this body, no more material body either in the heavenly planet or in the lower hellish planet. "You come direct to Me." That is perfection. You should not be attracted by somebody has gone to heavenly planet for ten thousands of years living. We should not be attracted by these things. Therefore Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī says, kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pur ākāśa-puṣpāyate. Tridaśa-pur means the heavenly planets. Ākāśa, it is just like will of the wisp. Something, just like, what do you say Hindi? There are many proverbs, which has no existence. Just like in Bengali we say ghoḍā-ḍima. Ghoḍa-ḍima. Ḍima means egg. The horse never lays down egg. But the word is running on: "the egg of horse." So it has no existence but the word is there. Similarly, what do you say in Hindi? Something which has no existence but it is current. I think there is.
Guest (1): Hawaikila (?).
Prabhupāda: Hawaikila, yes. Hawaikila means in the air there is a fort. It is something like, the Vaiṣṇava considers the heavenly planets, that hawaikila. That's all.
Guest (1): This rich birth is important for self-realization?
Prabhupāda: Next birth?
Devotees: Rich birth, to be born in a rich family.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. But there is facility. Because people are harassed for getting food and shelter. Everyone is working so hard where to get nice food, where to get nice shelter. Rich man means he has already got. So if he's sane, if he's good, has got good association, direction, then he can think, that "I have no anxiety for my food, shelter and other necessities of life. So how I shall utilize my time?" And if he gets good guru, then he can utilize very nicely, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is a chance. He hasn't got to work. Because people are very much perplexed how to get shelter, how to get food. But he has got the chance. He hasn't got to endeavor for food and shelter and other necessities of the body. Ample he has got. He can save time for spiritual advancement. That is an advantage. It is not necessary. It is almost disadvantage. But actually it is advantage. Unfortunately, those who are born in rich family, they take advantage of it that "I have got so much money, let me enjoy sense gratification." Māyā dictates, "Oh, you have got so much money. Utilize for wine-woman." That's all.