Prabhupāda: In that house, Caitanya, Lord Caitanya was lying unconscious in ecstasy, the same unconsciousness which He got from the temple. So Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was trying to treat Him with some water so that He may come to consciousness. Now when His other friends, Nityānanda, Gadādhara and others arrived there, they told, "Oh, Lord Caitanya, He becomes unconscious while chanting. So He cannot be revived to His consciousness by any other means. We have to chant." So in the Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's house that chanting and dancing began with all the members, and gradually Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to consciousness. Then there was introduction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu through Gopīnātha Ācārya and Gadādhara. And Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya told that "You become my guest, you, all of you." And he gave them places. Then... Caitanya Mahāprabhu was only twenty-four years old, and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, he was old man, about sixty years old. So by acquaintance it was disclosed that Sārvabhauma's father and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grandfather were class friends. So Jagannātha Miśra in that sense... Jagannātha Miśra means Caitanya's father, was a relative, brother-in-law of Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. So he took Him affectionately and told Him, "My dear boy, You have taken sannyāsa at a very early age.
Treat (Conversations 1967 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Mālatī: Yes. Some very nice people who worship dogs took him.
Prabhupāda: The dog saw that "My master has become devotee, so it is useless to keep here."
Mālatī: These people who took him, they think he is a person.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Mālatī: They treat him like person.
Prabhupāda: He's a person. Dog is a person. Why imperson?
Mālatī: Pardon?
Prabhupāda: Dog is person also.
Mālatī: Yes, but they treat him like I would... They... Human person. They treat him like... They worship him.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but what is the difference between human person and dog person? No difference. So far eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, they are equal. Human personality is there when he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise he's an animal, as good as dog.
Devotee: His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī accepted both Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrīla Gaurakiśora as his spiritual master.
Prabhupāda: Gaurakiśora dasa... Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was his father, and Gaurakiśora dasa Bābājī was treating Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura... Although he was householder and Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī was renounced order, still he used to offer great respect to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura saw him a pure devotee; therefore he recommended his son, Bimala Prasāda. His former name was Bimala Prasāda, and he got this title Siddhānta Sarasvatī by writing one thesis on astronomy, astrology, astrological calculation according to solar system. So he got this title Siddhānta Sarasvatī. So this Siddhānta Sarasvatī, Sarasvatī title also accepted by sannyāsa. Sarasvatī, Bhāratī, Puri, Araṇya, Bon, Parvat—there are ten names of sannyāsa according to Māyāvādī school, and according to Vaiṣṇava school there are 108 names. So this "svāmī" and "gosvāmī," they're also included within that 108 names. So he accepted Gaurakiśora dasa Bābājī Maharaja his spiritual master. Yes?
Devotee: Does our line of succession go directly to Gaurakiśora dasa Bābājī or to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura?
Prabhupāda: No. Because he was treating Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura as his śikṣa guru, preceptor guru, so it is in the line.
Prabhupāda: She likes this... (microphone noise) But also marriage problem, one must have a choice. So if we force something, that is not (chuckling) good. At least, in your country it is not... Of course, in your country, the husband...the boys and girls are, I mean to say, not major, whatever the parents force, that is another thing. When the boys and girls are grown up, it is not possible. Just like in India, there was svayaṁvara. Svayaṁvara means the girl will select her own bridegroom. That was allowed to princess. Princess, highly qualified princess. So the father would make a challenge, that "This is the condition. One who can fulfill this condition, I'll offer my daughter to him." So this was generally amongst the princes. So there was great fight. (laughs) Just like Arjuna. Arjuna married Draupadī. You know the condition? Her father made condition: there was a fish on the ceiling and one wheel was circling. So one has to pierce the eyes of the fish through the hole of the circle. And he cannot see directly. He has to see down. There is a reflection in waterpot. In this way, he had to pierce. (laughs) "In this way, he has to fix, and in one stroke the eye will be pierced. One who is successful, my daughter is for him." So nobody could, except only Arjuna. He was such expert bowman that he... Similarly, Lord Rāmacandra also made... In the palace there was a big bow. It was all hardened, made of iron. So long standing it was there. So one day, Sītā was sweeping the floor, and with her left hand she pushed the bow. It was very heavy. Nobody could... It was very weighty, heavy. And with her left hand she pushed it. So her father said, "Oh, this is wonderful girl. She can lift this. Nobody can lift it and with her left hand she pushed it? Oh, then my son-in-law will be he who can break this." (laughter) So he made a challenge that anyone, any prince, who will come and break this bow, he'll be my son-in-law. So it was only possible by Rāmacandra, Lord Rāmacandra. So these challenges were made amongst the kṣatriyas. Otherwise, generally, the parents would select. We were married. Whatever our parents selected, we accepted. I did not like my wife, (laughs) but gradually, I was accustomed. I was obliged to like. That's all. (laughs) That is the Indian system. You like or not like, you have to accept it. That's all. The psychology is that the girls, generally, before attaining puberty if she loves one boy, she cannot forget him. That is her psychology. And a boy also, when he is grown up, the first girl he makes choice, he also cannot forget. Therefore, by some way or other they are mixed up. So in your country the situation is different. You see? The boys and girls are freely mixing, and from school, college, they are freely mixing, free sex without any restriction. So we cannot enforce, at least, at the present moment. If some boy and some girl agree, then I bless him. That's all. Now another thing, that girls should not be taken as inferior. You see? Sometimes... Of course, sometimes scripture we say that "Woman is the cause of bondage." So that should not be, I mean to say, aggravated. (laughs) That should not be aggravated, that "Woman is inferior," or something like that. So the girls who come, you should treat them nicely, at least. I heard that Gargamuni, after his wife left him, he became a woman-hater like that. (chuckles) That is not good. You see? Yes. After all, anyone who is coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, man or woman, boys or girls, they are welcome. They are very fortunate. You see. And the idea of addressing "prabhu" means "you are my master." That is the... Prabhu means master. And Prabhupāda means many masters who bows down at his lotus feet. That is Prabhupāda. So each, everyone shall treat others as "My master." This is the Vaiṣṇava system. So now, who is going with your party? That girl?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Śrīmatī dāsī.
Prabhupāda: Nice if she does not marry, that's nice. Anyone who has got children, he should not marry, I think so. Because marriage means not for sense gratification. Putrāyate kriyate bhāryā, putra-piṇḍa-prayojanam. To get nice son, that is the idea of marriage. Not for sense gratification. Those who are after sense gratification, according to Vedic scripture, they are, I mean to say, recommended to go to the prostitute. Therefore in Hindu society, still, there is a prostitute class. They are allowed... They do not allow it within the society. I mean to say, extravagant sex life. Especially spiritual life. Spiritual life means gradually forget sex life. Material life means sex life. In the spiritual world there is no sex life because there is no birth, there is no death. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Although the women are very, very beautiful, many thousand times more beautiful than here... Their stature of body, their everything, youthfulness, everything. But still they are so much engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in chanting the glories, that they are not, I mean to say, influenced by the lust. That is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, in the Vaikuṇṭha. There are women. They also, men and women there is, and they also go by airplane, fly in the sky for trip, and all of them are devotees to Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa associate. So these things are described. So similarly, amongst the gopīs also. So in the spiritual life there is nothing like this sex pleasure. And the more we forget sex life, that means we are advancing in spiritual life. So this should be the attitude, that women, Godsisters, they should be nicely treated so that they may not feel any... After all, they are weaker. That should be our policy. Anyway... And if somebody agrees to marry, oh, that is welcome. There is no objection. Marriage is allowed. And so many married couples, they are very nicely living. Those who have gone to London, they were not married in the beginning, and I got them married. Similarly, here also, Harṣarāṇī and others. In New York also, Balāi dāsī, Advaita. So if the boy and girl agrees to marry, it is very nice. There is no objection. If not, they should be given all protection. Is that all right?
Journalist: What?
Prabhupāda: I ask all my disciples to get married. I don't allow these boys living with boyfriend, girlfriend. No. You must get yourself married, life like gentlemen, treat your wife as assistant, treat your husband as your provider. In this way, I am teaching them. This boy was married just four days before. He is professor. So I have got so many of my disciples married, and they are living very happily. This girl is married. Formerly, they were living with girlfriend, boyfriend. I don't allow that. I don't allow that.
Journalist: Well, let's... Let me get a little more basic. How about when someone is fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old?
Prabhupāda: The same thing. Of course, another thing is that we teach our boys to become brahmacārī. Brahmacārī. Brahmacārī means how to lead the life of celibacy.
Journalist: Hm?
Prabhupāda: Just Howard explain brahmacārī life.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Pradyumna: Do the five direct rasas take place between jīva souls also when they are...
Prabhupāda: Everything for jīva souls, all relationship. Kṛṣṇa is one, the Supreme, and all the jīva souls are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the eternal relationship is there. Now they are exhibited in these twelve kinds of humor, either directly or indirectly. Jīva soul, a part and parcel, cannot be separated from the Supreme. Sun and the light, electric bulb, and the diffusion of light, they cannot be separated. But this portion is covered. It appears darkness. So when it is covered, that is called māyā, and he thinks that "I have no relationship with God," or "I am God," "There is no God." This is māyā. He is covered. He cannot see. So he has to be treated by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment, and the māyā will be separated, and he will see, "Ah, yes, I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Then he comes to the direct relationship. Anyone, so-called spiritualist or transcendentalist, if he is claiming that "There is no God," "I am God," "There is voidness," these are all disturbing positions, different symptoms of this disease of māyā. It is disease. How one can think of, that he is God? That means he does not know what is God. If I say here that "I am President Nixon," would you accept it? Would you accept? Any one of you, if I say that "I am President Nixon," will you accept? Why? Why? Why? Why you do not accept me? I say, "I am President Nixon." Why do you not accept? Why?
Woman: I would say you are if you say you are.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere we shall go.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, what was the last thing? About the pot?
Govinda dāsī: "Mother, these pots are very, are pure."
Prabhupāda: He, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, taught that anything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, it is not impure. That was His purpose. "You should not treat these pots as impure. Ordinarily, when such pots are used for household purposes, that may be impure. But because in these pots prasādam were prepared, that is not impure." That was His... (pause)
Govinda dāsī: I don't know what letters you want.
Prabhupāda: There is one letter from... Let me see.
Govinda dāsī: From Karandhara?
Prabhupāda: No. We don't hear anything about, from Śivānanda.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Berlin? Kṛṣṇa dāsa?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: After His father's death it is the custom amongst the Hindus to offer oblations at Gayā. There is a temple, Viṣṇu temple. They offer prasādam. This is a Hindu custom. And with that prasādam the forefathers and the father is offered. So He went to perform that ceremony and by chance He met Īśvara Purī and He was initiated by Īśvara Purī. And after coming back from Gayā, He became very much emotional for Kṛṣṇa, and sometimes people thought that He has become crazy. So His mother treated with some oil. But learned devotees, they said that He has got devotional emotion. So His initiation was in Gayā, when He went to perform that ceremony. So you can show the Gayā temple or some temple. And He's offering oblations, He's meeting His spiritual master, he's initiating. In this way you can make it two, three scenes. And He became emotional chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa after initiation.
Guest (1): I'd like to know how physical things that are done, as chanting or dancing or... Are there no...? If you consider , as having any importance. How do these physical things affect our spiritual understanding?
Prabhupāda: Physical... Just like a milk preparation. You take large quantity of milk, you get diarrhea. But the same milk, if it is prepared into yogurt, if you take it, your diarrhea will be cured. So physical things, when treated spiritually, it cures physical disease.
Guest (4) (Indian man): You said the approach to spiritual goal, through this way, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma. Okay. Now there is another philosophy which has been preached by Ramakrishna and Vivekananda: "The service of man is the service of God."
Prabhupāda: And why not service of God service of man?
Guest (4): No...
Prabhupāda: First of all answer this. If service of man is service of God, why not service of God, service of man?
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Revatinandana: What is that word?
Prabhupāda: Daridra. Daridra means poor, poor. Daridra-nārāyaṇa. This is manufactured word by Vivekananda. They are so proud that "When a beggar comes at your door, you should treat him as Nārāyaṇa, daridra." These are simply high-sounding words. What they are doing actually for the daridras?
Revatinandana: So that is service in the mode of ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Revatinandana: That is service in the mode of ignorance?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They cannot serve. All these welfare activities of the world, what they are serving? That I explained this morning. They are trying to give help to the poor, but the number of poor is increasing. They are trying to give medicine or relief to the suffering patients. The patients are increasing. Hospitals are increasing. But if our number of temples, Kṛṣṇa temples is increase, that is something sound. But they are increasing hospitals. What do you think? If we increase number of hospitals, does it mean that we are making progress? But they think that they are making progress. Just like in your country there is welfare department? The expenditure increasing.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (1): To jñāna-datta Himself.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. If you surrender and if you get jñāna-datta, that is all right. So far we are concerned, if we do not surrender, if you do not surrender, then you simply waste our time, idle talk. This is not the process.
Guest (1): You have to treat the person with...
Guest (2): For seeking knowledge from him.
Prabhupāda: But you are not seeking knowledge. You have come to challenge it. You have come to challenge.
Guest (2): No, no, no... (several Indian men talk at once)
Prabhupāda: Now, you are saying that Kṛṣṇa says that incorporeal. But Kṛṣṇa says that "Anyone who thinks that I am incorporeal, that he is a fool."
Guest (1): Quite right. Lord Kṛṣṇa as such, if anybody calls Him incorporeal, he's a fool.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Is it not according to Gītā? Is it not according to Gītā? If I say, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa"...
Guest (5): ...if each and every person has an individual identity of (indistinct) soul above the body consciousness and unless you treat him as equal, there is little...
Prabhupāda: No, nobody... You cannot say... Even though they are equal, you can see equal but they are not equal. They are not equal. There are three guṇas, and in the Bhagavad-gītā that is analyzed, that "These persons are in the sattva-guṇa, these persons are in the rajo-guṇa, these persons are in..."
Guest (5): That is not personality of the ātmā, but the ātmā is everybody's soul.
Prabhupāda: That's all... First of all we have...
Guest (5): If you have potency to rise and go higher and higher...
Prabhupāda: You are not on the ātmā stage; I am not in the ātmā stage. You are in the bodily stage.
Prabhupāda: So why you see, you are seeing, "Commits murder?" Why don't you see that it is Kṛṣṇa is acting there? Why you say that "commits murder?"
Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa is getting the sin committed.
Prabhupāda: Sama-darśinaḥ means you have no distinction what is sin and what is...
Guest (1): Sama-darśinaḥ means to treat everyone as equal.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Sama darśinaḥ means there is no distinction between sin and virtue. That is sama-darśinaḥ. As soon as you see, "This is virtue, and this is sin," it is not sama-darśinaḥ.
Guest (1): Virtue and sin become the same in sama-darśinaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sama-darśinaḥ.
Guest (2): In other words, the sin does not remain sin any longer.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But he has no vision that "This is sin, and this is virtue." That is sama-darśinaḥ. As soon as you make distinction, you are not sama-darśinaḥ.
Prabhupāda: No, apart from this, these two animals. One is dog, and another is cow. So dog is worshiped and cow is sent to the slaughterhouse. What kind of civilization it is? Huh?
Haṁsadūta: Animal.
Prabhupāda: Less than! Cow is supporting the whole society with milk. Every morning, without milk, we cannot live. The child, without milk, cannot live. She should be treated as mother. And they are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And still, they are thinking of becoming free from sinful life. Can anyone kill his own mother? "Oh, mother is old and useless. Let her be killed. Burden." Is that very gratitude for the mother by the son?
Revatīnandana: They do that. As soon as the cow is too old to give milk, immediately slaughterhouse. I was talking to one man, he was a cowherdsman here in England. He said he couldn't stand it. He said a nice cow, she would get old, she couldn't give milk anymore, immediately slaughterhouse. Just like that. The most disgusting thing.
Prabhupāda: (people coming in) Oh. You come forward. Give him seat. Śivānanda, you come... You can sit there. Yes. So the God consciousness can be awakened if you stop sinful activities. Otherwise, it is impossible. You go on preaching for millions of years; there will be no God consciousness. There will be no God consciousness. That is the... in Bhagavad-gītā. (people sitting down) Why? You can come here, this side.
Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā (SB 5.18.12). If one is Godless, he cannot have any good qualities.
Revatīnandana: Supposing somebody has got smallpox. Smallpox means sores appear on the body and very high fever also. So one doctor who's less intelligent says, "He's got a fever because he has sores." So he puts medicine on the sores. Sores go away and the man dies. Another doctor says, "He's got sores and a fever. This means he has got smallpox." So he gives him some medicine to cure the disease, and then the sores automatically go away. The root cause of all... There are so many troubles in the world. The root cause is Godlessness. People are not God conscious. If that is there, it will automatically put everything in the right perspective and everybody will be able to live harmoniously and peacefully because they will be satisfied and happy in themselves. Then they can live together peacefully and happily. Otherwise, it's all artificial attempts, and the patient will die when you just treat the symptoms. That's happening. For hundreds of years there's been wars and things. There have also been peace movements. Have the peace movements stopped the wars? It hasn't happened. Because they... With one side they're trying to stop the sickness, on the other side they're fanning the sickness, they're stimulating, like in materialistic activities. There's got to be a basic change of heart. Then things can change in detail.
Guest (2): But you will not comment on the details themselves.
Revatīnandana: Sometimes, if it has relevance for preaching work.
Sister Mary: Do you think it would not be helpful to say that there's no comment. To say that the whole of mankind is one and we're treating the disease in the human heart (indistinct) You can't do it by an overall (indistinct)
Revatīnandana: Yes, I agree. (indistinct)
Sister Mary: We condemn wars but we fight each other. We are covetous on all different coarse levels. Until we've cured that in our own heart, we can't have the faith to say, "God, stop this war."
Revatīnandana: There's a saying, "charity begins at home." (end)
Dr. Weir: Largely, a Freudian would say, to compensate their feeling of inadequacy, of their being not sufficiently treated with empathy and love when they were young.
Śyāmasundara: Objectively, seeing is just to gratify the senses.
Dr. Weir: Well, Freud said, of course, he's the great chap on gratification, and that's where Jung sensibly said, "Ah, that's not sufficient. You've got to have the spiritual side of life as well." He comprises it. Jung got the advantage of being, you might say, a higher stage to use the words of the Swami because he's able to contain the lower things like...
Prabhupāda: The conclusion comes in this way, that to remain animals, scientific animals, that's all. The propensities are the same, sense gratification, but the man is trying to make it scientific. That means to remain animal but become scientific, that's all, scientific animal.
Dr. Singh: Swamiji, if Īśa is everywhere, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), then surely He is in the body also.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Singh: So is the body not to be treated with a certain amount of care, and even comfort, because it is the vehicle for our spiritual progress and so on?
Prabhupāda: Certainly. There are necessities. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya. But the thing is, people are trying to keep the body in overcomfort and the result is they are becoming diseased. We require to... The body is not to be neglected. Just like our system, our Vedic system, (indistinct) nature you take grains, you take fruits, you take milk, sufficient nourishment, so why should you take animal food? It is simply taste for the tongue. You don't require. Now these boys and girls who are with me for the last four years, they have given up everything—meat eating, fish, eggs, everything.
Dr. Singh: Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā.
Prabhupāda: Ah, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). They simply take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. They have forgotten everything. So, they have not died.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, correct. We all have experience in that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if she, if she wants son to become irresponsible, irresponsible vagabond, in the association... Of course, our Dallas also we should take very much care so that we may not also produce irresponsible vagabond. So don't cause irresponsible vagabonds.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what are your instructions to the parent..., to the teachers as to how they treat parents? I have heard several parents sometimes complain that..., that they don't get enough news about their children from the teachers. Should teacher let the parents know about the children?
Prabhupāda: So our, the small children teaching...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...means they should learn alphabet.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: How to read and write. That is the first thing.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Devotee (6): That many, many devotees have, have since I have arrived here, have asked me questions about how, how to treat the children, how to, how to teach the children, and they have, you know, there are many children in other temples besides gurukula who are either are not, not of age yet, or who have not been sent yet...
Prabhupāda: Everyone is of age. That is all right. It is not that there is no age limit. Anyone who can remain, that is the best thing. But with very small children, I think nowadays after three years children can begin.
Devotee (6): After three? After three? Jaya. They, they've asked us many questions. Should..., is there any, is there any information? How should we, should we send information from gurukula to the other temples?
Prabhupāda: Who? Who asked questions?
Devotee (6): Devotees who have children, who have come to the temple. They said, one woman said that "They've..., my son, they're throwing him in cold shower. They say he has to take a cold shower, and that no one wants to have anything to do with him because he's so much trouble..."
Prabhupāda: No, we have got our own program. We cannot accept the different program, that "My son should be done like this..." We should see that everyone is taking bath daily, that's all. They are taking bath daily?
Devotee (6): Yes.
Ian Polsen: And one needs guidance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all we have to know ourselves. To know ourselves means self-realization: "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." Then what is this spirit soul? Naturally, part and parcel of God. Therefore as spirit soul my duty is to serve God. That is religion, plain thing. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. It is serving me. That is healthy condition. If there is any pain—"Oh, this finger cannot scratch. I'm feeling pain"—that is irreligion. So long the part and parcel of my body, the finger, cannot serve me, it is not normal condition. So every living being is part and parcel of God. So long he's unable to serve God, that is his material condition. But as soon as he's engaged actually in the service of God, that is his real liberated position. Same example: If the finger is diseased, it cannot serve. But when it is serving, that is healthy condition. Similarly, we living entities, we are part and parcel of God. When we are not engaged in the service of the Lord, or God... Everyone is engaged to some service. Somebody's serving his family, somebody's serving himself, somebody's serving his government, somebody's serving so many things. And somebody's serving even cats and dogs. So these are all mad condition. So when he turns to God... Service he must give. Nobody can say, "I'm not serving anybody." That is not possible. You must be serving somebody. Just like you are serving government, he is serving some office, because service is our nature. So we are not happy because the service is misplaced. When the service is rightly placed, then it is our normal condition. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender unto Me." That is real liberated condition. So our mission is serving God. In this way, that people are suffering on account of their godless life. So we are making propaganda that "Serve God, then you will be happy." We know why he's suffering. The same example: The finger in diseased condition cannot serve me. It has to be treated when there is some pain. Suppose this, the nail, I apply some medicine, cure it so that it can serve me. So the whole world is suffering because he's not fit to serve God. So if he becomes fit to serve God, then all the suffering will be gone. The same example again: When the finger is fit to serve, that means it has no disease. And so long it is diseased, there is pain, it cannot serve.
Devotee (3): Way of life or aim of life?
Prabhupāda: The aim is that you must get free from your diseased condition. That should be the aim. It is not the way of life. You must get free yourself from the diseased condition. It is not a way of life; that is a must. If you want to be free from diseased condition, you must treat yourself properly. The treating is... Treatment is you surrender unto God and take to His service. This is simple. You are suffering, that's a fact. Everyone knows. Anyone who has got this material body, he is suffering. Nobody can say, "No, I am not suffering." Is there anybody? The body is meant for suffering, this material body. But because they do not approach the real physician, they think that they have got a material body, and that material body means there are senses, the sense gratification will give him satisfaction. Therefore he's simply after sense gratification, that's all. That is not treatment. That is still more complication.
Prabhupāda: What medical science? Can they stop disease? That is the problem. If they can stop disease then I can accept that they know something. What is their...
Devotee: In India the doctors, simply by feeling your pulse they know everything that's wrong with you.
Prabhupāda: No. Even that. No physician can stop disease. He can suggest, "This is very nice medicine," but my problem is, "Why shall I become diseased?" That is my problem.
Ian Polsen: They only treat the symptoms, not the cause.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Well, you can give me some medicine, and for the time being I am cured, then again I fall diseased. You cannot stop disease. Suppose you have got a very nice coat. That's all right. But one who has got not so nice coat, so what is the difference?
Devotee: Coat.
Prabhupāda: Coat, yes. So this so-called scientific improvement, nice medicine, nice medicine or not nice medicine, what is the difference? I fall..., I become diseased. You cannot stop disease. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). You may think that "I have overcome so many distresses," but real distress is birth, death, old age and disease. What you have done for that?
Indian: That's the hardest (indistinct).
Gurudāsa: His father's name...
Prabhupāda: His father's name. I gave him one set of books, Bhāgavata, (indistinct). So you have to inquire from him whether it is sold (indistinct). (break)
Gurudāsa: Sudāmā Vipra Mahārāja has such reverence for Siddha Svarūpa, but the other students do not like that, because they think he is treating Siddha Svarūpa with respect when he should be treating you with respect. So naturally, the students love you and so they don't like that.
Prabhupāda: They do not like to give him extra...
Gurudāsa: Respect, at the expense of yourself.
Prabhupāda: There is no such thing. They will stop(?).
Gurudāsa: Yes, they are nice boys. Secondly, for some reason they don't like..., they like to cook themselves.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Gurudāsa: They like to cook for themselves. They cook without spices and like that, because they are thinking of their health. I gave them... I know, I can... (break)
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) a nice place, a very open place.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Śyāmasundara: But the whole idea is that if you create a spiritual atmosphere that's so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it, that's the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by, by pouring water on the root.
Prabhupāda: That if you sit down for chanting, they should automatically sit down. If one is left, then you can maybe say, "Why you did not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply wake up, wake up, wake up, all right, I'm waking up (indistinct). But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately.
Pañcadraviḍa: We go to the āratik.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Pañcadraviḍa: We go to the, up into the temple for the āratik, so he stays in bed and sleeps and we go to the āratik.
Prabhupāda: No, that if he stays in the bed, then ask (him) to leave (?). Yes. Not that fight.
Hayagrīva: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When a wave comes, they run this way, and when the wave goes down, they run down.
Prabhupāda: When the waves bring the food, so immediately they capture. So there is no scarcity of food, even for the small birds. And we are in scarcity. The scientist is manufacturing tablet.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're going to convert the wood, the big woods to food also, by treating with the enzymes. That is one of the...
Prabhupāda: Programs.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The wood that grows big, big trees, they say, in a few years, then these will be converted to food by treating with enzymes.
Prabhupāda: That means there will be no food, natural food. That is stated in Bhāgavata. You don't, you'll not get these grains, sugar, milk. This will be stopped. You have to eat woods. Yes. By your advancement of civilization, you have to eat woods.
Brahmānanda: Like a termite.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Go home. (Apparently aside) Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam... (CC Adi 17.21). (pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: At the moment, scientists are doing so many things. They're having so many hopes. So in about fifty years...
Prabhupāda: There will be so much advancement that there will be no grains, no milk.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then, then you are not very sane.
Student (1):. Yeah, but why, there's a thousand...
Prabhupāda: You do. You say, "I do not," but you do so. You are... By law you are obliged to do so. If you say publicly, then you will be something else.
Revatīnandana: It happened. In Scotland there is one university, Stirling University, and the queen visited there. And she was treated in a very insulting way by the students, and as a result of that, the university and those students, they were put into a great deal of trouble afterward. Of course, the queen is not supreme anymore, but she still is sufficient.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am giving an example. No, officially, she is the supreme of England. That you cannot deny. If you do so, then your position, you know. Similarly, anything... "Call a spade a spade." If everyone says that this is electric lamp, and if you say, "No, I don't say," then what can be done?
Student (3): We can see an electric lamp, but we can't see Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, that... That is... You have to see through the śāstra. śāstra-cakṣuṣā. Just like you see the sun just like a disc, but when you go through the śāstra, authorized books, you understand that it is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So what is the value of your seeing? Why do you believe you're seeing so much? Your all seeing is defective. You cannot say that you are perfectly seeing. You cannot say that.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I said.
Buddhist Monk (1): ...of that good hospitality. That's real hospitality.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... That I said, Gṛhe śatrum api prāptam. Even one gets an enemy, he should be also be received.
Buddhist Monk (1): He's come to your place and treat him with all the respect and courtesy...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Buddhist Monk (1): ...and that loving kindness.
Prabhupāda: From Mahābhārata we can understand that when Bhīma, Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa went to Jarāsandha to fight with him, enemy, so in the daytime they were fighting like enemies, and at night Kṛṣṇa, Bhīma and Arjuna were guests in the house of the same Jarāsandha.
Buddhist Monk (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. At night they were guests. They were talking very friendly, and there is no enmity. But in daytime they'll fight. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So I told him that "You have created your own god, Lenin. And we have got our own God, Kṛṣṇa. Now, the principle of accepting somebody as God is there, in your philosophy and in my philosophy. So that you cannot avoid. Your communistic philosophy cannot avoid the conception of God, the leader." Just like in Buddha philosophy also, there is the conception of God, of Lord Buddha.
Buddhist Monk (1): No. That's not correct. Because we do not treat the Buddha... In fact, when the Buddha preached his atheistic philosophy... That's why he was termed a nāstika, a wasala. We do not believe in a god. We say panya, wisdom, and dharmuddha, is an incompatible...
Prabhupāda: At least, you follow the leadership of Buddha.
Buddhist Monk (1): Leadership, that's correct.
Prabhupāda: So that is, I am pointing out. Leadership,... God means "the leader." According to Vedic injunction, God means "the supreme leader." Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief living entity. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). God means the Supreme Leader. So leader you have to accept. That is the conception of God. Either you select Buddha or Lenin or somebody else, you have to accept one leader and follow. That is your business. So our philosophy is that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, He's the Supreme Leader.
Prabhupāda: So we have to approach a person who has seen the truth. It is not difficult. Just like if you are suffering from some disease, you have to go to a doctor who knows how to treat. It is same thing, like that.
Śyāmasundara: How do we know he's a good doctor or not? By his credential or...?
Prabhupāda: No. That also... Therefore it is called sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya. Three things there are for knowledge. Sādhu, saintly person; śāstra, scripture; and guru. So one statement we have to corroborate with other statement. If you accept somebody as guru, then you have to corroborate it whether śāstra says that he is guru or any saintly person says that he is guru. This is the way. Similarly, when you take a scripture, you have to know it from the spiritual master, whether that is actually scripture, whether it is accepted by the saintly person. Sādhu. Similarly sādhu also, whether guru says, "Yes, he is sādhu." Whether śāstra says, "Yes, he is sādhu." There are three things, sādhu-śāstra-guru. So to accept one, you have to take the opinion of the other two. Then you'll get the right way. Just like who is a guru? That is stated in the śāstras. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Śāstra says, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) "One must approach a guru." Then the same question comes, "Who is guru?" That is also stated, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. "He's well-versed in Vedas, knowledge of Vedas, and fully Kṛṣṇa conscious." He is guru. Just like how do you know that here is a medical practitioner? Before going for treatment, you find out. How do you find out?
Prabhupāda: That means they have no right understanding of universal brotherhood.
Lord Brockway: No. With that I agree.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the use of talking of universal brotherhood when you actually do not treat like that?
Lord Brockway: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But that is due to his lack of God consciousness. He'll talk very high words, but practically he cannot do it.
Śyāmasundara: No information.
Prabhupāda: Yes, no information. Just like the commu... Even in communist country. They, they are thinking that national, everything should be national. So what is the meaning of national? Means any living entity born in that country is national. So why the poor animals are not nationals? That is, means lack of God consciousness. He does not know. He thinks simply human being national.
Revatīnandana: So therefore you do that. You go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to be a doctor. By force. "Now, you come..."
Prabhupāda: We are treating them.
Revatīnandana: "...and be a doctor." They all want to be preachers.
Mother: You've got to have balance, balance otherwise. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Balance, this is balance. Let us... You, you take some students and train them as medical man. But I am training to become preachers. Why you interfere with my business? You do your own business.
Mother: Well, my son is my business.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So your son, your son is not dependent on you. He's independent.
Mother: Yes, but he was...
Prabhupāda: You want independence. He's already independent of you.
Mother: He was snatched out of the university by your people going round the universities. He was in university.
Prabhupāda: But... That's all right. If some of our student goes to the university... There are many students...
Revatīnandana: Now wait a minute. We didn't snatch Michael.
Prabhupāda: We don't object to that.
Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Candragupta. So he was honorary Prime Minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction, who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that: mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat. "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street, you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. So mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualifications, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestations: treating all women as mother; treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society. So how we can expect purification unless we accept these principles? You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it.
Popworth: I wonder if I could put the point which Dr. Schumacher has made somewhat more forcefully if possible. I am surprised that in the exchange the point he made was not taken and answered. What is at issue is that in your beliefs you are saying it is wrong to kill an animal. It is possible, I don't say this to justify the killing of animals. But it is possible for an animal to be killed by a man in a way that involves far less suffering to the animal than it would die in its natural state. But what seems to be such an infinitely greater evil, an infinitely greater crime against the natural order is, for example, to take one chicken and put it in a cage the size of a shoe box, and then add more two more chickens to it, and then keep them there for the whole of their short natural life, unnatural life. But it seems to me, and, I think, to Dr. Schumacher, that this is an abomination of the spirit far greater than the mere killing of animals. But if it... It seems to be an insult against creation to treat the animal life in this manner. And yet, you do not appear to be shocked by it as you are shocked by the mere fact of killing.
Prabhupāda: It is more shocking than killing?
Popworth: Far more.
Vicitravīrya: What happens is they have large factories where they have thousands and thousands and thousands of chickens in a very tight space, and they breed them for slaughter.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
David Lawrence: Yes, there are figurative stories.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: I mean, one or two of the stories there's a reference to Kṛṣṇa and the unmarried gopīs, saying that He treated them like dolls yet they were well pleased with Him. Now, would it be right to say that the main point of that story, rather than...
Prabhupāda: Dolls?
David Lawrence: Yes, it says He treated them rather like dolls. It's your own translation on that one. But they were well pleased with Him. Is the point of the story...
Prabhupāda: Dolls, dolls means just like doll-player, they make the dolls dance. It is like that.
David Lawrence: Yes, as He wishes.
Prabhupāda: Puppets, yes, puppets.
David Lawrence: Yes. I mean is that to be taken again literally or is there, as you say, a figurative meaning there in terms of faith?
Prabhupāda: No, that is literally. Because gopīs were just dancing according to Kṛṣṇa's desire. They are so devotees that whatever Kṛṣṇa desires, they are prepared to do.
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. Sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
- mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya
- śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
- āgamāpāyino 'nityās
- tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
- (BG 2.14)
If one is engaged in his cultivation of spiritual life, then he should tolerate all these bodily pains and pleasure. Because they come and go. Just like you are medical man, you treat, some patient. Suppose he's attacked with fever. Everyone knows that fever has come; after some time, it will go away. So the one who is cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's not very much disturbed with fever. He knows that it has come, it will go automatically. If we fast for few days. There is a Bengali proverb, jvaranpar ketanadali palab...(?) If you receive one unwanted guest and fever, you don't give him eat. Then it will go away. Unwanted guest, if you do not give him food, he'll go away. Even a fever also, if you don't eat, it will go automatically. So after all, these things come and go.
Dr. Hauser: Oh yes. But that's very often a symptom of a, of a psychosis that they feel that they are persecuted by, by foreign powers or by...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Foreign powers, yes. So this is called ghostly haunted. So our material conception of life, this is also ghostly haunted, madness. "I am Christian. I am Hindu. I am Muslim. I am Englishman. I am German." These are all conception of ghostly haunted. Because spirit soul is pure. In the Vedic language it is said: asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. The spirit soul has no connection with such designations. Just like in dream we see so many things. But it has nothing to do with me. So this is night dream. At night, we forget all these things about the day dream. "I am this, I am that. I am this family-member. I am his father. I am his husband." And so on, so on. At night, when dream, are in a different situation. And we forget everything. And again, in daytime, we forget everything of the night dream. We come another dream. So this is also dream. That is also dream. I am simply observing. In daytime I am seeing some dream, gross dream, and at nighttime I'm seeing some subtle dream. But seer, I am. Under different condition, I am seeing different things. I think you treats this madness. He's sees things in different way, in different positions.
Yaśomatīnandana: Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9).
Prabhupāda: Yes, you do not know how to make them happy. First of all learn how to make them happy. You cannot manufacture your program to make them happy. That everyone is doing. But the more they are acting, the world becoming in chaotic condition. You know what is the standard of happiness, how to make them happy; then you can work. If a medical man, he has never seen a medical college and if he wants to treat patient, what is this?
Hṛdayānanda: A criminal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Quack. He must know how to make them happy. That is first business.
Yaśomatīnandana: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Karandhara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can sense with the senses. You perceive with the senses the sand, but who has made the sand? You have not made. Why you are so fool that you don't understand this? This sand... Here is a perception, direct perception. This water, vast water-direct perception. Who has made it?
Karandhara: Well, they say, "If it was made by God, we'd be able to see him just like the sand."
Prabhupāda: Yes, but you have to get the eyes. That I say. Because you are blind, you have cataract, I have to operate. You'll see. You'll see. You come to treatment. Therefore the śāstra says, "Go to guru and be treated and try to understand." But how you can see with your blind eyes, cataract eyes?
Karandhara: Well, that vision, that seeing, is supramundane. They only consider the mundane vision.
Prabhupāda: Yes, supramundane, everything is supramundane. Because... How do you know that there is nothing in the sky? Now you say it is vacant. So your eyes is deficient. It is not vacant. There are innumerable planets, but you cannot see. You cannot see. You are blind. Therefore, because it is not in your power to see, you have to hear from me. "Yes, there are millions of stars there." You have to accept it. You cannot see. But because you cannot see does not mean that it is vacant. It is deficiency of your senses.
Karandhara: Well, they will admit that, but they say, "Still, we cannot... Even though we are ignorant of some things, we still can't accept what we can't see."
Prabhupāda: Why? If you are ignorant, you have to accept.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll present you. So you have to take training from me. You have to make your eyes to see Him.
Dr. Wolfe: We want to.
Prabhupāda: That is the... Yes. But if you refuse to be treated, if you don't go to the physician, then how you'll be? You are blind now. There is cataract. Now you have to treat in a surgical operation. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This is the injunction.
Karandhara: You see, that step requires faith.
Prabhupāda: Not faith, practical.
Karandhara: Initially it must be, there must be faith in the guru.
Prabhupāda: Practical. If you want to learn something, you must to go the expert. That is not faith; it is a fact. You cannot learn anything by yourself. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: No. Astrology is a science. (break) ...that I shall go to the foreign countries and throughout the whole world I will establish so many temples, so many things... this...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they have some intelligence to tell that...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is calculation, calculation. This astrologer, this astrologer was a very big astrologer and when I was in service, Dr. Bose's laboratory, so Dr. Bose was treating one patient. He was vomiting blood. So he was treating as tuberculosis. Then he could not cure him after giving all medicine. Then he asked the astrologer, this astrologer who made my horoscope, "What is the matter? Panditji, can you tell?" So he calculated. He said, "You are making wrong treatment. He has got some sore in the throat. It is not heart." And he treated, he was cured.
Yaśomatīnandana: Vedic science is so perfect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He knew it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Who is this Dr. Bose, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Yaśomatīnandana: Jagadishacandra Bose?
Prabhupāda: No, he's another Bose. There is...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a Bose Institute in Calcutta in...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, (coughs) that is Sir Jagadishacandra Bose. Sir J.C. Bose...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Sudāmā: Most people, Śrīla Prabhupāda, have difficulty accepting that God has an animosity.
Prabhupāda: But he has got so many difficulties because he's diseased rascal. So he has to be treated. But his only fault is that he doesn't want to be treated. He's a diseased person, but he doesn't want to be treated. When he's treated, he'll understand. But he doesn't agree to be treated. That is his fault. A tuberculous patient, he doesn't want to be treated, but if he's treated, he can be brought into healthy state. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is treating all these rascals and fools because all of them are born rascals. This is our judgement. Not... śāstra's judgement. Abodha-jāta. Jāta means born. Born rascals. Everyone is a born rascal unless he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our... Our propaganda should be like that. We can call anyone rascal and fool if he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious. So what is the value of rascals and fools? He may say something. He may say something. Just like a madman. He may speak so many things. But who values his word? Everyone knows that he... A child, he speaks so many things. Who cares for it? Similarly we must know, anyone who's not Kṛṣṇa, he's a madman. He's empowered by this illusory energy. He talks all nonsense. So ours should be that "If you want to understand, then you come to this position. Then you'll understand. You must be educated." Your belief and not belief or acceptance, who cares for them? Now, this sky is there. Everyone has seen. The experienced man says, "Now, this side is sun." And if somebody says, "Why not this side?" So who cares for this version? You rascal, you may say like that, but it is a fact, this side is sun. One who knows, he can say. One who does not know, he'll argue, "Why not this side? Why you are so bigot that the sun is coming from this side? It may come this side also." This is all nonsense.
Candanācārya: Sincere people will appreciate that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prajāpati: In the early days of this movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in New York, devotees said they did not know how to treat Your Divine Grace. They did not know your exalted position. I think we are still very much offensive.
Prabhupāda: No, I am servant. I have no exalted position. Servant. Caitanya Mahāprabhu sat down in a place where people were washing their feet. Yes. (break) ...a representative of Kṛṣṇa. I came to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa has sent so many representatives to help me. I consider like that. Without your help I could not do. So I wanted Kṛṣṇa's help, so Kṛṣṇa has sent you. Therefore you are representative of Kṛṣṇa. That is my conception.
Prajāpati: We're just dogs, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prabhupāda: Inhuman. And then cutting throat of the cows, that is not human. Is that very good reasoning?
Devotee: They don't think that the cows have souls, many of them.
Prabhupāda: That is their rascaldom. Rascals. Why no soul? What is the symptom of having soul?
Devotee: Consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they have no consciousness? Then children? They treat like animals. They have no soul? Then better send all the children to the slaughterhouse. Their, children's flesh is very sweet and palatable.
Devotee: They made a movie like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about people... They give up their lives and they are sent to this place where they are mashed up and made into meat, and the people eat them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They do that in many hotels. They, it was in India done. The childcatcher? What is called?
Girirāja: Kidnapper.
Prabhupāda: Kidnappers. They kidnap and they slaughter, and mix with other meat. It becomes very tasteful. In hotel, one body found a finger of a child. In Kanpur.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. So make a headquarters.
Bali Mardana: O.K.
Sudāmā: We can make... We'll make a nice house for you on the land.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Very nice. (japa) (break) Where? Here?
Sudāmā: Yes, they're cows, but they keep them very poorly, treat them very badly.
Prabhupāda: Why? You keep cows nicely.
Sudāmā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Jayaśrī: On Kauai they have tulasī plants and they have a cow.
Sudāmā: There's some devotees on another island and they have tulasī plants and a cow there.
Prabhupāda: Very good. (break)
Nitāi: Morning Walk... (end)
Dr. Patel: That's right. We, we always... We always consider a guru in the form of God. God comes to you in the form of a guru.
Prabhupāda: That is... That we also accept.
Dr. Patel: And that is the way I was... I mean, I love you, treat you as such and worship you.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And if you think it is any other form, I have no objection, whatever bhāva you may call it. What is the matter?
Prabhupāda: No, I am speaking on the principle of śāstra. śānta-bhakta, dāsya-bhakta, sākhya-bhakta, vātsalya-bhakta, mādhurya-bhakta.
Dr. Patel: You see, I can...
Prabhupāda: It is not that mādhurya-bhakta is greater than the dāsya-bhakta. The example has been given: just like sound. Sound is generated from the ether, sky. You are scientific man. You will understand.
Prabhupāda: Then when it is sprouted, then active service. That is dāsya-rasa.
Dr. Patel: This is, in the very, I mean, very, the early preaching of all our Vaiṣṇava families...
Prabhupāda: Yes,
Dr. Patel: ...that all sannyāsīs and sādhus must be treated very well...
Prabhupāda: The sannyāsīs and sādhus, they are on the śānta-rasa, as you are. Yes, śānta-rasa, appreciating the greatness of the Supreme Absolute Truth. That is śānta-rasa. Brahman, Paramātmā. The Brahman feature of the Lord, all-pervading... Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That appreciation, that is śānta-rasa. Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). This is also śānta-rasa.
Dr. Patel: Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61).
Prabhupāda: Ha. So this realization of the Absolute Truth is called śānta-rasa. And when it is further developed, then dāsya-rasa.
Dr. Patel: No, these boys must develop friendship with me, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: No, these boys must develop friendship with me, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: (laughing) I am in a way joking sometimes to them and they take me very seriously.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Don't take serious. Treat him as your father, or grandfather. He's our great well-wisher, and he's a śānta-rasa devotee. Now, I shall request you one thing. The... During ārātrika time, hundreds of children come to us. I give little prasādam. You have seen it?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They are very interested in dance and... Now, I wish that they may be given sumptuous food and dress.
Dr. Patel: Yes, dress, I also thought of that. Some of them are very badly dressed, poor people...
Prabhupāda: Yes, if they come, "All right, come here. Just take your bath, be cleansed, tilaka, and a nice dress" and giving them some food.
Prabhupāda: No, no. As a physician...
Dr. Patel: They wanted Pakistan for themselves.
Prabhupāda: As a physician, you cannot deny...
Dr. Patel: As a physician, I will treat even animal...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That...
Dr. Patel: ...if he is dying. That is different story. But I won't...
Prabhupāda: So that is our position.
Dr. Patel: That is right.
Prabhupāda: That is our position.
Dr. Patel: That is... I am discharging my duty. But had I been a prime minister of this country, I would have discharged my duty that way.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We don't like Muslim culture, but...
Dr. Patel: But I, I hate them!
Guest (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: So how Caitanya Mahāprabhu treated them equally or gave better position to Rāmānanda Rāya than Rūpa Gosvāmī? This question was raised—not only now—when our Guru Mahārāja started Gauḍīya Maṭha. So he was allowing the sannyāsīs to live in palatial building and go in car for preaching work. So many such persons questioned, "How is that, sannyāsīs are going in car, living in palatial building?" So our Guru Mahārāja replied that "A devotee should be offered the best comfort of life. And if he would not have introduced this comfortable life, at the same time, to become pure devotee, then these devotees from Western countries will, would never come. They would never agree to sit down under the tree and, imitating Rūpa Gosvāmī... That is not possible." Do you understand or not?
Guest (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like, just like if you want to give me some food to eat. So you should give me to my mouth, not to my rectum. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: But they are doing it now. We are giving enema. We treat with enema in America. (laughs) He said, he said that don't give these things to him because...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, this is the reason: To give one food, there is the only one mouth. You cannot say, "Because there are so many holes, any hole."
Dr. Patel: But that is not the real..., I mean, real argument that you give...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that's right.
Dr. Patel: But my question is...
Prabhupāda: Avidhi-pūrvakam.
Dr. Patel: No, but they're...
Prabhupāda: That is avidhi-pūrvakam.
Prabhupāda: Helplessly. Just like...
Dr. Patel: Swamiji, who dies?
Prabhupāda: Now, again you are...
Dr. Patel: Because he has got this... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...identification is all right, but you must come to the practical point. Then don't treat any patient. You can say, "Who is suffering?"
Dr. Patel: "Body."
Prabhupāda: "Who is suffering...?"
Dr. Patel: We are treating the body.
Prabhupāda: "There is no need of taking medicine."
Dr. Patel: I am treating the body. I am not in... You are treating the...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That body is there, and you are absorbed in body. Therefore there is suffering. You may say that "I am not this body, and I am not this body," but when the body's going to be killed, you become afraid. Because you are absorbed. Why go beyond this practical point?
Dr. Patel: Ācchā.
Akṣayānanda: No. One may come out of a thousand.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to remain in degradation, and they will protest again. Therefore to save the degradation, this cātur-varṇyam must be established. That I... The ideal class. People will follow, "Oh, here is the ideal class." So we are trying to make an ideal class of Kṛṣṇa conscious people. And if you treat yourself as degraded, then who will care for you? You should remain an ideal class. People will follow gradually.
Mahāṁsa: If a brāhmaṇa class is created, then automatically the kṣatriyas and vaiśyas and śūdras will be changed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The ideal, if you be ideal class, gradually they will take your advice, what to do. Then immediately the whole degradation will be finished.
Satsvarūpa: Why will they take advice? Will they actually be attracted to the virtues?
Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Just like people come to see me. Similarly, everyone comes.
Yadubara: "The Vedic system of receiving a guest was completely observed by Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself to teach all others how..." (break)
Prabhupāda: Even if you receive at home your enemy, you shall treat him in such a way that he is not afraid. Akuto 'bhayam. That "I have come to the house of enemy and he can do me harm at any time," no. He should be received in such a way that he will be completely free from these thoughts, that "I am his enemy."
Dr. Patel: These Arabs were well known about receiving these guests like that, but they have learned from India.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they were all Indians. All this land... Now just like they have become Pakistan. They were Indians, Hindu. Because we degraded in our culture, the divisions, the so many divisions... Otherwise whole world are under Vedic culture. As soon as the brāhmaṇas and the..., or kṣatriyas, they degenerated, the whole society disrupted.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Slaves? This word is used in Vedic language also, slave. The Africans, they were meant for becoming slaves.
Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can we take a picture here please?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So the Kirātas, they were always slaves of the Āryans. The Āryan people used to keep slaves, but they were treating slaves very nicely. Later on it degraded. Otherwise, slaves were kept just like family members.
Bhagavān: They had no resentment.
Prabhupāda: No, they were very happy. Just like you keep a dog. It is slave but it is very happy under the protection of good master.
Bhagavān: Actually, they like to work hard.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they like to work hard and they want good protection. That is their happiness. Even still in Africa, the servants, domestic servants, Africans, I have seen in Indian family, they are very happy. They are very happy, and the master also takes care of them. They want to eat sumptuously, and that's all. They have no other ambition. They don't want any motorcar or like this, no. And they work very nicely, domestic work, very clean. But sometimes they steal. That is their habit. My father used to say, "If you do not allow the servants to steal, so don't keep." Don't keep servants. "A servant who does not steal, he is not a gentleman. He must steal."
Yogeśvara: He says actually a human mind cannot define it. A human mind can't actually encompass the whole of the cosmic force.
Prabhupāda: If you cannot define, there is no remedy for your suffering. Just like a disease, unless the physician knows what is the infection, he cannot treat. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says one thing: we don't have to put name on disease or we don't have to know this name is called like that, this name is called like that, to cure it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. If you go to a physician, he will try to understand what is the cause of the disease. Then he makes treatment. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: They agree about knowing the cause of the disease, that it's necessary to know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That, what is the cause of the suffering? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says ignorance of himself. The man suffer because he's ignoring himself.
Prabhupāda: So let him become in knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Now, the efficiency, just like medical treatment. If you know what is the end... Āyurvedic treatment it is called nidāna, nidāna, or diagnosis. First of all, before treating a patient you first of all diagnose what is the disease. Then you can give the proper medicine. But these people do not know how to diagnose. The diagnosis is that they must realize the Supreme. That is the disease. Because they have forgotten the Supreme, they are suffering. The symptoms are different. But they are treating only for the symptoms, not for the root cause. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to treat the patient from the root cause. They have forgotten God. Let them remember God. Then everything will come into...
Professor Durckheim: There is no disease of the human being which the animal has not, which has not this source. Any kind of human malady and disease which is reserved to the human being has always this source of being separated from the innermost reality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that. The other than, lower animals, birds, beast, and other, they have no problem. And we have created so many problems. They have no eating problem. Thousands and thousands of sparrows are here. They have no problem of eating. They are very nicely jumping, flying, eating.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Formality, you should be respectful. Suppose your enemy—that is etiquette-comes in your room. But when he has come to your room, you should offer him respect: "Come on, come on. Sit down." That is etiquette. You know that "He's my enemy." That... The etiquette according to Vedic civilization: gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto-bhayam. Even your enemy comes at your home, you should treat with him in such a nice way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhe śatrum... That was... Just like Jarāsandha and Bhīma. They, they wanted that "We want to fight with you..." (Break) Unless one of the kings died... (Break) ...a strong flavor, and it is continually, continues. So long it is alive, the flavor is there. So where is that art, where is that science? When you have... Where is that scientist amongst the human society? They are very much proud of their scientific advancement. Everything see, the flowers and leaves, so artistically, beautifully manufactured that simply by seeing them you'll feel pleased. How the man can manufacture it? And still, they are denying the existence of God and taking all the credit. How foolish they are. Mūḍha. (laughter) Yes.
Bishop Kelly: I beg your pardon, your grace. I didn't quite catch what you said.
Prabhupāda: I said that if one engages himself in the service of the Lord some way or other, then the revelation, the original dormant God consciousness and love of God, becomes revived. Exactly in the same way: the psychiatrists, they treat the crazy fellow by talking, talking, talking some way. So if we talk of Kṛṣṇa, then the original Kṛṣṇa consciousness is revived. That is also stated. You find out in the Bhāgavata, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi... (SB 1.2.17). Yes, purport. So this is very important thing. Therefore we have published so many books about Kṛṣṇa—to hear. Hearing, hearing, hearing, and... Just like man is sleeping. You talk loudly, and he will be awakened. Yes. That's it.
Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are meat-eaters, they can eat other non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya. It does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "elephant-rakṣya." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. So therefore it is recommended, go-rakṣya. It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other non-important animals but don't kill animal, er, cow. And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she is mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: ādau mātā, real mother. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, the wife of guru, spiritual master. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, brāhmaṇī, the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are brāhmaṇa, that is also mentioned there in the śāstra. So his wife. Ādau mātā, guru patnī... In general the understanding is, except your wife all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Canakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: "All women should be treated as mother." Para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanyā-dāya. You cannot evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty is, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over: "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." In our society, we get married.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Rūpānuga: So this book actually, is directed to scientifically-minded people because in this age people are getting educated. They are getting scientific-minded.
Prabhupāda: But that creating problem. The psychiatrists came to see me, where? Caracas. So I said—he admitted, both the psychiatrists—that "You are not treating the real person who is diseased." I gave him the example, that "You have got good car, but the driver is a madman, and he is creating disaster, and you psychiatrists are going to cure it. You never say that 'The driver is bad. Change him or just educate him. Then there will be no disaster.' But you are taking your fees and giving some repairing in the car. But you do not know what is the original cause of disaster. It is not chance. Due to the bad driver." So our propaganda is to give the bad driver nice knowledge so that he can drive the car to Vaikuṇṭha. That is our position. And these rascals, the materialists, they are simply painting the body of the car. And the driver? "Let him starve."
Rūpānuga: They are like the cheating mechanics.
Prabhupāda: That's all. All these medical men, psychiatrists, they are simply painting the body of the car. That's all. What is that?
Prabhupāda: Oh, what is the question of Mr. Psychiatrist? Who is psychiatrist? You are? Come here.
Guest (7): No, I have just come to listen.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. The other day in Caracas two or three psychiatrists came. His question was how to solve the problems. So our statement is that unless you treat the spiritual disease of the human society, then the problems will increase. It will be never be solved. The real disease is spiritual disease.
Guest (7): The young children also? What about young children?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Young children should be educated from the very beginning about God consciousness or the science of God. We had the opportunity in our childhood. My father taught. And then, when I was grown up, my spiritual master taught. So for that reason we have got some sense.
Brahmānanda: They have never seen God. They can see chemicals, but they cannot...
Prabhupāda: You are trying. How you can see? You rascal, you are blind. You, how can you see? You have to treat your eyes, then you will see. We are seeing. We are not blind like you. You are blind. You require treatment. You come to the treatment. You cannot see.
Yaśodānandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.
Prabhupāda: Ha?
Yaśodānandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.
Prabhupāda: Then how he claims to..., claims others' faith upon him? He's more than a doctor? Doctor is also as good as scientist as you are. If you do not have faith in the doctor why do you claim people should have faith in you? Where is the proof that you'll be able? Why you are asking us blindly to follow you? What is your answer?
Paramahaṁsa: He says he just wished to meet you. Perhaps I should read a verse. Should I read a verse?
Prabhupāda: No. Our viewpoint is that in the material world, who has accepted this material body—anyone, but we specially take the human society—they require treatment, everyone. Everyone is mentally diseased, and therefore he is unhappy. Everyone. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād-guṇa (SB 5.18.12). Anyone who has no sense of God consciousness, he is diseased mentally. He requires treatment. The whole human society, especially at the present moment, they have given up God consciousness. They are not interested. That is their disease. And everyone requires treatment. So the whole Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the mass treatment of the materialistic persons who are mentally diseased. That is our proposition. It is... In India there was a case. A man committed murder, and he pleaded in the court that... His pleader, his lawyer, pleaded that he was mad at that time. We also accept unless one becomes mad, one cannot commit murder or suicide. So the civil surgeon was brought to give evidence whether this man is actually mad. The civil surgeon said that "So far my experience is concerned—I have treated so many persons—in my opinion everyone is mad. So if on account of madness one should be excused from the law, then it is Your Honor's discretion, but so far I have studied, more or less, everyone is mad." Similarly, our study is that unless one is mad, he cannot remain in this material world. So everyone is mentally diseased, and they are concocting their ideas, different ideas. And they are overlapping, my idea, your idea overlapping. Therefore there is clash, unhappiness, violence, individually, socially, familywise, nationwise. This is going on. Therefore everyone requires a treatment, psychiatrist's treatment. And the best treatment is to induce a person to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, a person who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, or God conscious, he is basically a mad man and requires treatment. (pause) Ghostly haunted man... You have experienced ghostly haunted man?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if this kind of man will understand—they are in position—that will be a great... He is better than so many clergies.
Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Yes. I invited someone for Friday. I can't guarantee that he'll come. But anyhow, his name is... He's from the local government Alcohol and Drug Authority. And they are... They have hospitals to treat people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol. He is a social worker who has worked in a mental hospital, and he wants to bring a psychologist and a psychiatric nurse. And I hope he comes because he sounded intelligent like that also. These people are looking... They have problems on their hands, and they don't know what to do...
Prabhupāda: This world is full of problems. I have said. If you go this way, sense gratification, then you will have only problem. And if you go this way, towards God, there will be no problem. Because nature will put forward so many obstacles if you go. Because this is not the way of life, human life. Animal life, that is another thing. But they do not know. But human life, he is given the opportunity to go towards God, but he does not take this opportunity. He goes towards animal. Then there will be problem. Nature will not excuse. "So you are given the opportunity, and you are again becoming animal? You must suffer." This is nature's way. Therefore they are suffering problems. So many directors, so many government, the problem cannot be solved. That is nature's way. These foolish persons, they should know how nature is working. Find out this verse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). They are thinking, "I am director," "I am minister," "I am this, I am..."
Guest (2): You means you have ten thousand students who used to be addicted to something?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Addicted to everything—illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. And now they have given up everything.
Guest (2): And those who relapse, can they be treated again?
Prabhupāda: Again?
Paramahaṁsa: Those who have relapsed, can they be treated again?
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, that I say. Say, utmost, ten out of ten thousand.
Paramahaṁsa: He says, "Can they be treated again, a second time?"
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Even American government is pleased with this movement because they have spent so much millions of dollars for stopping LSD, and they are surprised that when the people come here, they give up.
Prabhupāda: They are spending years. They are all European, Americans. They are not Indians. We have got here... You go to Melbourne. We have got big branch. In Sydney we have got. In Europe. They are doing that. It requires training, proper training. Then it will be done.
Guest (1): Well, if there is someone who wouldn't like to perhaps join this religion, but still wants to get treated...
Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is a culture.
Guest (1): Oh. Yes, this culture...
Prabhupāda: Because we are admitting persons from various religions, various nations, various countries, and they accept this culture and they become purified.
Guest (1): Do they have to wear those clothes and shave their heads and chanting those things...
Prabhupāda: That is optional. That is also optional. That is not compulsory. But in India because the brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, they dress in a particular way, they do that. But that is not compulsory. But it has got a psychological effect, because whenever we go, people chant "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" So by this dress, we give chance, the other men, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Śrutakīrti: Are the lower human species responsible for sinful activities?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As soon as one is human being, he is responsible. Just like your state laws. Suppose a aborigine comes and does something criminal, will he be excused? Animal may be excused, but the man will not be excused.
Australian devotee 7: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they mightn't excuse him, but they mightn't treat him as harshly as they would treat somebody in knowledge. Is this the same with the activities that these people perform?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Śrutakīrti: He said he wouldn't be treated as bad because an aborigine is not considered...
Australian devotee 7: He hasn't got the knowledge. He's ignorant.
Prabhupāda: Still he is not excused by the law.
Australian devotee 6: He would be treated leniently.
Australian devotee 7: Would he be treated more leniently than someone that has knowledge.
Prabhupāda: I do not know that. But ignorance is no excuse.
Brahmānanda: France is not as developed. In France the prostitutes...
Prabhupāda: Well, in France you can get prostitute on the street. They are standing.
Brahmānanda: Well, that's a bad system for the prostitutes because...
Jayatīrtha: They've gone on strike, saying that the government is not treating them properly.
Brahmānanda: They're not being protected by the government like they are in Germany. So they have gone on strike by going into the churches and occupying the churches. So it has created a big...
Prabhupāda: Occupying the churches?
Jayatīrtha: The Catholic churches.
Brahmānanda: They go on strike. They go there and they won't go out.
Prabhupāda: That is called Gandhi's policy.
Brahmānanda: Yes, gherao, or something like that.
Prabhupāda: It is called satyagraha.
Prabhupāda: Mind is there in the soul, but the mind is now polluted by material contamination. Just like a madman. He has got his mind, but his mind is contaminated. Therefore he requires treatment by psychiatrist. You cannot say the madman has no mind. He has got mind, but it is contaminated. You have to make treatment. So mind is there. Everything is there in the soul. And now the mind, contaminated by the matter, it is perverted. The same example: A madman has got mind, but it is useless. He is simply acting in madness. The same madman, when properly treated, he will act like a sane man. So mind is there always, in the pure soul or in the material body. Everything is spiritual. The soul is spiritual; the mind is spiritual; the intelligence is spiritual. But it is now contaminated. So you have to make treatment. When it is purified, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then mind is controlled, intelligence properly acting, and soul is in his proper position. Therefore those who are under treatment, they must be strict observation—he may not do something wrong so that treatment may be hampered.
Dr. Pore: Is the body, then, to be resisted? Is the body to be disciplined, to be resisted, to be ignored? Is that what you're suggesting?
Prabhupāda: Ignored?
Bahulāśva: How to treat the body?
Dr. Pore: How do you treat the body?
Prabhupāda: Make the best use of a bad bargain. (laughter) It is a bad bargain. But we have to utilize it.
Dr. Pore: When you say, then, that everything is a part of God you make an exception of the body, the body is not...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: No, he's saying that when we say everything is part of God the body is an exception. The body is not part of God?
Prabhupāda: No, why? Body is also part. Yes, that I have explained.
Woman: You have said that you are very small and that you are not God, and yet it appears to me as an outsider that the devotees treat you as if you were God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is devotee's duty. Just like a government officer. Personally he is not very important, but so long he executes government order, he should be respected as government. That is the way. Even a ordinary policeman comes, you have to respect him because he is government man. But that does not mean he is government. He is respected. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. If that man thinks that "I have become government. People are respecting me," then he is foolish. So... But it is the etiquette. If the government man comes, you should respect him as government.
Woman: Along the same idea, I wonder also about the many beautiful material things that the devotees bring to you, and, for instance, when you left the airport, you left in a beautiful, big, fancy car, and I wonder about this because...
Prabhupāda: That is teaching them how to respect. If you respect government man as government, then you must treat him like that.
Woman: But...
Prabhupāda: If you respect spiritual master as God, then you must offer him the facilities of God. Otherwise how you treat him as God? Simply in mind? In action also.
Prabhupāda: If the spiritual master is treated as God, so he must show, practically show, that he is treating as God. So God travels by golden car. So if the spiritual master is offered ordinary motor car, so still it is not sufficient, because he has to be treated like God. What is this motor car for God? (laughter) They are still deficient. If God comes to your home, will you bring Him in ordinary motor car or you would arrange for a golden car? If you treat him as God? So your point is that they offer me nice motor car, but I say that is not sufficient. That is still lacking to treat him as God. Be practical.
Woman: Yesterday I met a devotee from New York who said that there were many people present at the festival from other planets and that you could see them. Is that true?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everyone can see. If you have eyes, you can see also. But if you have no eyes, therefore you are envious because they have offered a nice motor car. So you have to make your eyes to see. A blind man cannot see. The eyes are to be treated how to see.
Woman: Is this true also with your other senses?
Prabhupāda: Every senses. If you want to see something, you must be trained up how to see. Like a scientist is seeing something through the microscope, and you want to see with naked eyes. How it is possible to see? You must adopt the process to see. Then you can see everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yadubara: So they're dependent on the material world. (?)
Rādhā-vallabha: (break) ...scientist named Fox who has. They have conjectured that these original very complex nucleic acids have created life. So he has taken these acids in a big test tube...
Prabhupāda: I say (?) "Fox, go to the forest. (laughter) And cry there." Yes, we treat them as foxes and jackals, that's all, not even human beings. Why they waste time in this way and people are enamored by them? That is... Just like you were talking about space meeting. What they have gained out of it? And people are enamored to talk about them, write in the newspaper or make a subject matter. And then all of a sudden death comes, "Get out," finished. You see? How foolish they are. So, Hayagrīva prabhu, how you are feeling?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hayagrīva.
Prabhupāda: How you are feeling?
Hayagrīva: Oh, fine, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order is yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Don't talk nonsense. Whomever you meet, if you want to become a leader and talk something, talk Kṛṣṇa-kathā, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'..., what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then satisfy your ambition to become a talker. Otherwise, you rascal, remain a talker only. You talk only; you get nothing. If you want to utilize your talking power, then talk what Kṛṣṇa has instructed. Then your life will be successful. And if you talk foolishly, then you will be revealed as a rascal. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāsate: "A rascal fool is so long beautiful as long he does not speak. As soon as he speaks, then he is revealed that he is a rascal." So don't talk this. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkha. You can dress yourself, very nice gentleman. People will res...But as soon as you talk nonsense—"Oh, here is a rascal," that's all. That is going on. They are... In the name of scientist, philosopher, they are talking nonsense and exposing themselves that they are all rascals.
Prabhupāda: Tobacco is also intoxication. We are already intoxicated in the bodily conception of life, and if we put more intoxication, then we are lost.
Faill: You mean these things just reinforce body consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you want to be treated, then we have to follow the instruction of the physician. He says "Don't take this. Don't take that. You eat only this." So we have got such prescription.
Faill: Well, I think I have got quite a lot down now. I'll have to go and work it out.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Faill: I'll look up some reference books on the history of the movement and that sort of thing.
Prabhupāda: History, it is not a new movement. You have seen this book. You read that book thoroughly. You will get full knowledge. This movement is very, very old and standard. It is never changed. As soon as you change it, then the potency of the movement is lost.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very interesting view.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is the change of understanding? It is natural. If you treat me as enemy, I treat you as enemy. That is natural. But brahma-jñāna means samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, that no distinction, "Everyone is Brahman." That is brahma-jñāna. What was the movement here of Mahatma Gandhi?
Indian man (1): There was a movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that movement?
Indian man (1): They used to call it...
Indian man (2): Satyagraha movement.
Indian man (1): Nonviolence.
Indian man (2): Fighting for the truth.
Prabhupāda: What was the truth?
Indian man (1): There was discriminatory laws against the Indians, trying to let them carry certain documents to identify that they are foreigners and all that type of things, not allowed to go in certain places where other people were allowed to go, and all those kind of laws, discriminatory laws, especially for the Indians. So he fought against them for the truth that everybody is equal in the eyes of God.
Prabhupāda: So? But it was not successful.
Harikeśa: Well, it's just a tumor. It's like a tumor.
Prabhupāda: Then why you say that it is mother's right to kill? And tumor, can you bring life in tumor? Kick simply on their face, on their nose. That is the only thing to treat with such... Murkhasya latausadhiḥ. Such fools in the society, they should be hanged. Misleading the whole population.
Harikeśa: Even the big, big philosophers simply say that life doesn't start until it comes out of the womb. They are just convinced of it. They are just convinced of it. No matter what argument you give, they are just simply convinced.
Prabhupāda: How they are convinced? Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda's argument is that if life is not there in the womb, then how it develops?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the point. Just like the eggs. If there is no life, how the chicken comes? Why don't you manufacture an egg and bring life from it? That was... The other day I was talking. So because you are tenth-class rascal you cannot understand how the life is there. A seed. Take a seed. Unless there is life, how a big tree comes out of it? You manufacture something like that, imitating, and bring life. Life is there. Because you are tenth-class rascal you do not know.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Any woman should be looked upon as mother. This is culture. Except his married wife, all women should be treated as mother. The brahmacārīs were taught like that, "Mother." This is culture. Simply they are trying to elope other's wife, other's woman, exploit them. And they're cultured. There is no culture at the present moment. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: "And others' money should be treated just like pebbles in the street." Nobody cares for it. So they are simply making plans how to grab others' money. And Ātmavat sarva bhūteṣu: "And if you feel pains and pleasure, you should consider for others also." If your throat is cut, then do you feel very happy? Why you are cutting the throats of the poor animals? Where is culture? There is no culture. Simply rogues and thieves and rascals and fools. Where is culture? They do not know what is the meaning of culture. Here is culture, three words:
- mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
- para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
- ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu
- yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ
- He is cultured.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise just animal.
Prabhupāda: Simply animal.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is very logical.
Prabhupāda: Simply animal.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is very logical.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should we call all the women "mother"?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And treat it like mother. Not only call, but treat it like mother.
Harikeśa: Actually we have not even any idea how to treat mother.
Prabhupāda: Learn it. At least mother should not be proposed for sex. This much you can learn. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. (break) ...two questions, that they have not gone to moon planet and they cannot make even a chicken egg, you make great propaganda.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The rascals will be proved that they're really rascals.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're saying, "To make human being." First let them make an ant or an egg.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. Then? (Bengali) "You cannot catch even nonpoisonous snake, and you are telling that 'I shall now catch cobra.'
Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply.
Brahmānanda: Just "Mother."
Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be addressed, "Mother." That will train.
Indian man (4): In our Indian culture they don't call the name of the mother never, children don't.
Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply "mother," that's all. And if the woman treats man as son, then it is all right. It is safe.
Indian woman: We got a very sweet sound. Everything we use "ji." "Matāji", "Pitaji," "Brataji," "Bahinji."
Prabhupāda: Or... And the woman says, "Beta."(?) That's all right.
Devotee (5): The only trouble is in the West we're accustomed to not like our mothers.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (5): In the West we don't like our mothers.
Prabhupāda: So you should forget your West or East. (break)
Brahmānanda: Similarly, wife should not be called "Mother."
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore it is said, "other's wife," not your wife. But Rāmakrishnan, he was saying his wife "mother," and he became famous by this foolishness.
Indian man (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...is occupying very exalted post, even in this material world, he is favored by Kṛṣṇa. Sanātana Gosvāmī, when the Nawab said that "I shall arrest you," then he replied that "You are representative of God, so if you arrest me I have no objection." He said that. He was Mohammedan, and he was a Hindu brāhmaṇa. He never felt that "How the Mohammedan can arrest me?" No. He said that "You are representative of God because you are in such exalted post." (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Kṛṣṇa also says, "Anyone who is, materially even, very opulent, that means he has got some power." (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) (break) ...in politics, how to treat with enemies, how to treat with friends, how to make... In politics there are so many things, diplomacy. So he said, "What is this nonsense? Everyone should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. They are all equal." His father became angry. What is that?
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Bhāgavata: He said it is all nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Yes. For a devotee, these politics, diplomacy, these are nonsense. But sometimes they have to do. Sate sarthaṁ samācaret. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Rationalism is required, not nationalism. No. This nationalism... The Americans and the Russians, they are enemies and friend only on this principle. Prahlāda Mahārāja was astonished, "What is this enemy and friend?" because he is maha-bhāgavata. This is materialism. This is materialism. (aside:) Jaya. Why one should be treated as enemy and as friend? Everyone is servant of God. (break) He is going on at night also?
Devotee (2): No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)
Prabhupāda: Intelligence is above the mind. Intelligence controls the mind.
Devotee (3): And steady intelligence, that is acquired by hearing? We can keep our intelligence steady by hearing?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (3): But as soon as we stop hearing then the intelligence...
Prabhupāda: Mind is disturbed.
Devotee (3): Then the mind will take over.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If the mind is not controlled by intelligence, then it will disturb. Then the senses will be disturbed, agitated. Then you are bound up by karma. Unrestricted sense gratification means karma-bandhana, bound up by the laws of karma. And bound up by the laws of karma means repetition of birth and death in different species. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantor dehopapatti (SB 3.31.1). Different bodies means resultant action of karma. So if you want to save yourself from this resultant action of karma, then the first thing is to control the mind. That is yoga system, to control the mind. But one who has got intelligence, he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the mind is automatically controlled. Yogīnām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatāntarātmanā (BG 6.47).
Prabhupāda: They are so bold that, Shylock?
Brahmānanda: Yeah, yeah, the flesh.
Dr. Patel: There are Shylocks everywhere. One Shylock does not mean a bad race. And that Shylock is the creation of that poet.
Prabhupāda: No, the... In Europe the Jews are treated like that.
Dr. Patel: Are there not Shylocks in...
Prabhupāda: And they are greatest scientist.
Dr. Patel: All the Marwaris, who are they? They are Shylocks. And they give you lot of money and you make them sit first before us, you know.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: I am... Don't say that. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the richest in the world.
Dr. Patel: Maybe richer because they are very serious in... Wherever they are, they are serious. In collecting wealth also they are very serious. In collecting, I mean...
Girirāja: Life members.
Dr. Patel: ...them also they are serious. In knowledge also they are serious. And in preaching also.
Girirāja: Prasādam.
Dr. Patel: Look at the Christ. Look at the Christ. Against all odds he's, I mean, up to the end of his life he remained one, truthful to his convictions. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...keśa-dharanam. Every young man is keeping big, big hair. Lavanyaṁ keśa... That is the symptom of this age. It is written in the Bhāgavata, lavanyaṁ keśa-dharanaṁ. Vipratvaṁ sūtram eva hi. Vipratvaṁ sūtram eva hi: "A man becomes brāhmaṇa simply by that thread."
Prabhupāda: So you cannot begin with this sun. The beginning of educating is that put this thesis, as Kṛṣṇa is putting, that, that this body is not all in all. Within the body, there is soul.
Harikeśa: Unless that's understood, there's no question of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: If, in the beginning, or on the basic principles, he remains a rascal, then there is no knowledge. If he does not understand that there is soul within this body, then he remains animal. What is the value of animal's speculation? Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). So we shall treat them as animals. So what, what we have got to learn from the animals? They're not interested. Now let.... You can accuse: "Why you should say animals?" I may say, "You are animals." That's all right. Just come to discussion, whether you are animal or I am animal.
Harikeśa: Calmly come to discussion.
Prabhupāda: This the..., this theory is going on perpetually, whether there is soul or not. But these people, these Russians, they are so ignorant, they will not allow anybody to believe that there is soul. Atheistic, stubborn atheistic. Although they cannot answer this question that there must be something superior which is moving this body. And they cannot answer the, what is that superior element.
| Page Title: | Treat (Conversations 1967 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 20 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=89, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 89 |