Śyāmasundara: In a way three dimensions. The first one is the phenomenological ego. He says first of all that there are two egos—there is the phenomenological ego and the transcendental ego—what we would call the jīvātmā and the Supersoul. The phenomenological ego is the psychological or empirical ego, which is found in the passing stream of consciousness, or the false ego: the ego that identifies with the events and the stream of events of day-to-day life in this world—what I think I am. And the transcendental ego is the observer behind that stream of consciousness. But his idea is that, still down on this phenomenological level, the phenomenological ego deals with appearances as an activity—that is, cogitates upon appearances which we've passed through by perception. These objects pass through my perception. My phenomenological ego cogitates on those objects and gives what I call the world a structure.
Prabhupāda: That means he knows that he has got another vision.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. But he's still dealing on the lowest level now, just to really understand things (?). He says that this ego as truer subjectivity—that is the understanding that "I am"—is the wonder of wonders, and he considers that it is a mystery that the world should contain a being which is aware of its own existence. The phenomenological ego becomes a fundamental fact of the universe in which all truth is found. In other words, beginning with this understanding that "I am existing," that "I am this," becoming aware of myself, this is the springboard or launching pad to know the truth. And an animal, he does not have that knowledge, subjective...
Prabhupāda: So how you developed that knowledge, better knowledge than...?
Śyāmasundara: That is the mystery.
Prabhupāda: ...better knowledge than the animal?
Śyāmasundara: That is what he calls the mystery. That gradually that...
Prabhupāda: Then next mystery will be: there is somebody who is better than you.
Śyāmasundara: He comes to that conclusion.
Prabhupāda: Then it is better to consult that better than you. Why you shall go down to the animal status?
Śyāmasundara: No. He says that we are above the animal status because we can understand what we are.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now how you become more than the animal status?
Śyāmasundara: Well, that he doesn't deal with.
Prabhupāda: So the conclusion should be: as I am better than the animal status, therefore somebody there is who is better than me. Is it not good to suggest like that?
Śyāmasundara: He says that the transcendental ego is better than the...
Prabhupāda: So why not ask the transcendental ego? Why you speculate?
Śyāmasundara: This is what he calls the intuition, transcendental ego, his understanding of things.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, there is a transcendental ego, it is better to consult it.
Śyāmasundara: That's what he's trying to do, but through inward consultation, not that he has an outside source or he does not access to that transcendental ego from...
Prabhupāda: Therefore our Vedic śāstra says the transcendental ego appears externally as spiritual master.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. You have to recognize that where can he go? He has no spiritual master available.
Prabhupāda: No. If transcendental ego appears as the spiritual master, then what is the difficulty? If he accepts the transcendental ego, and he appears externally as spiritual master, then where is the difficulty to find out a spiritual master. So transcendental ego will confirm that "Here is spiritual master." He has no difficulty. Why does he say that whom to accept?
Śyāmasundara: Well, because...
Prabhupāda: If he has got acquaintance with the transcendental ego, he'll confirm, "Here is the spiritual master."
Śyāmasundara: I imagine Germany at that time, around the turn of the century, it had just no authority that he could consult.
Prabhupāda: No. For others, here he accepts one transcendental ego. We say that transcendental ego appears externally as spiritual master. Then where is the difficulty of finding out spiritual master?
Śyāmasundara: How to find such a person?
Prabhupāda: Because transcendental ego will help. If you accept transcendental ego, he will help: "Here is your spiritual master." There is no difficulty. There is no question of how I shall find it. If you have faith in transcendental ego, he will be able to tell you that "Here is." Where is the difficulty?
Devotee: No difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise his transcendental ego conception is also faith, which is not fact.