Italian Man (1): ...the personal and impersonal features of Kṛṣṇa.
Italian Man (1): Kṛṣṇa, being at the same time infinite expansion of energy and also being form, a person.
Prabhupāda: Yes, person. Originally He is person.
Italian Man (1): In the heart, you know.
Prabhupāda: That is another expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Localized.
Italian Man (1): Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Just like the sun or the moon. There is the sun-god or the moon-god within the planet. That is the original. And then the sun globe, it is localized. And then the sunshine and the moonshine. Hare Kṛṣṇa (Hindi) (aside:) (break) ...what is impersonal and personal. What is that? Repeat it, what I have said.
Italian Man (1): This way, if I understand what is personal and impersonal?
Prabhupāda: Yes, what is that personal and impersonal?
Italian Man (1): Is that Kṛṣṇa also has a... He's a person. He is not only all-pervading abstract energy.
Prabhupāda: He is all-pervading.
Italian Man (1): Yes, but He also is a person.
Prabhupāda: Not also. He is person. This all pervasive influence or all pervasive feature is His expansion of energy. The same example: The sunshine is the expansion of energy of the sun globe, and the sun globe is the place for the sun-god. The sun-god is a person, and sun globe is the place where this sun-god lives, and sunshine is the expansion of the energy of the sun disc. Try to understand it very... Because this question is very complicated. People cannot understand. You try to understand this. God, Kṛṣṇa, is originally a person. Brahmeti bhagavān iti. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān (SB 1.2.11). Just like if you want to see the sun-god, there is a person. His name is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, Vivasvān. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). He is a person. Now you cannot see the person so easily.
Italian Man (1): Exactly. I wanted to ask you about Kṛṣṇa in the heart. Could you tell us something about His physiognomy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. His physiognomy is sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (Bs. 5.1). That we can understand. Sac-cid-ānanda. He is eternal, He is full of knowledge and He is blissful. Sac-cid-ānanda. Your body, my body, is just opposite. It is not eternal, it is temporary. And it is full of ignorance. Therefore we require knowledge. (aside:) Little away, yes. So this is full of ignorance, and there are so many miseries. So Kṛṣṇa hasn't got a body like this. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's body is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. So we can distinguish what is Kṛṣṇa's body and what is our body. (break) ...understand. Try to understand, that what is the nature... That is called spiritual body. So we have got also similar body, but very small, very small. That is covered by this material body. And because in the spiritual body I am person, I have got form, therefore the material elements have taken a form. Just like when your coat is made, it is made according to your body. Because you have got hands, so the coat has got a hand. But the hand of the coat is not real. The real hand is within the coat. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Within. These foolish people, they do not understand. They take, "This is hand. This is hand." He does not know that this hand is artificial, outward. Real hand is within. This is their misconception. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Try to understand. These are very important question. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because within the coat the real man is there, therefore the dress has assumed two hands, two legs, one collar, like that. But this is false, like dress. Real... Therefore every living entity has got form. He is not formless. This less intelligent class of men, because they cannot see the form... It is so small... It is so small that if you divide the top portion of your hair into ten thousand parts,...
Italian Man (1): Your one hair into ten thousand parts.
Prabhupāda: The top portion, tip of the hair, the point, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the form of the soul. It is such minute, small... Because they cannot see, they say it is nirākāra. No, it is not nirākāra. It is there.
Italian Man (1): Can I ask you one question?
Italian Man (1): When we see Kṛṣṇa in us, in our hearts, the moment Kṛṣṇa comes, the moment that the link takes place with Kṛṣṇa in our hearts...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is always within your heart.
Italian Man (1): Yes. But at the moment that our soul opens itself and succeeds in putting a link... (break) I mean, I'm sorry, I mean...
Prabhupāda: He has this feature.
Italian Man (1): It is a matter of words. It is difficult to explain this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot create God.
Italian Man (1): No, of course not.
Prabhupāda: These Māyāvādī philosophers, they create God. Anthropomorphism. What is that anthropomorphism.
Satsvarūpa: To imagine that God has a form. Man imagines God, not that God exists originally, but man imagines God based on his own form.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anthropomorphism it is called. They create a form, but that is not the fact. God has His eternal form. That I explained. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means form. And it is sac-cid-ānanda, means eternal, full of knowledge and... Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. People are accepting, because that is real knowledge. And nobody reads other books so carefully. And this Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world. All big, big scholars, big, big philosophers, theologists, they read. Because that is real knowledge. That is the proof. It is real knowledge. Cit. Sac-cid. And one who is giving real knowledge, it is natural conclusion, he has got eternal body. We cannot give real knowledge because we forget. As we change our body, we forget. Just like at night we dream, but we forget the body, this body. In another body we go to some dreamland. So because we change body therefore we forget. And because Kṛṣṇa is giving knowledge perfect, past, present and future, therefore it means that He has got eternal body. This is the proof. One should understand everything with logic. Is it not? We forget because we have no eternal body. Last birth, what I was, what you were, we have forgotten, because changed body. Death means forgetting. So because Kṛṣṇa is giving perfect knowledge of past, future and present, therefore it is to be understood that He has got eternal body. And eternal body means there is no misery. Misery means janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), to take birth, to die... (aside:) (Hare Kṛṣṇa.) And to suffer from disease, to suffer from old age. These are the miseries. So because Kṛṣṇa hasn't got this temporary body, therefore He is not suffering from these things. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, you will see always, young man. You will never see Kṛṣṇa's picture as old man, because He is eternal body. This is the conclusion.
Italian Man (1): In our heart.
Prabhupāda: No, no, heart or not heart. Your heart or not heart, but Kṛṣṇa's position is like that. He has got eternal body. He is blissful, because there is no miseries. Temporary body means there is misery, so many miseries. At least these four miseries, birth, death, old age and disease. So eternal body has no such miseries. Therefore it is blissful. Therefore it is full of knowledge. As soon as you get your eternal body, which is already there within this temporary body, then you also become blissful and full of knowledge. That is oneness. One in quality. Kṛṣṇa has got this body, eternal, blissful, full of knowledge. So when you get this body, then you are becoming equal in quality, not in quantity. Your question is answered?
Italian Man (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: If you have got any doubt, you can still ask.
Italian Man (1): Maybe... May I emphasize... (break)
Prabhupāda: We have got your photo. So... but the difference is that your photograph and you are different. Because the photograph is of the temporary body, therefore it is not absolute. But Kṛṣṇa, being everything, Kṛṣṇa's photograph is also Kṛṣṇa.
Italian Man (1): Yes, okay, thank you. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Is it all right?
Italian Man (1): Yes, thank you.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is everything. So His photograph is also Kṛṣṇa. It is not that foolish people, they worship a photograph. No. It is reality. It is reality. Yes. (break) Kṛṣṇa is everything. Can you explain? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Who can explain? Explain, yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi... (BG 7.8). (break)
Prabhupāda: Bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). Because this material world means these elements, this earth, this water, then fire, then air, then sky—five elements. So what are these elements? These elements are Kṛṣṇa's energy. Bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ.
Italian Man (1): Material energy.
Prabhupāda: Material energy, yes. And the living entities, they are also energy, spiritual energy. Two energies. Two energies means just like fire. Fire has got two energies, heat and light. Similarly, the whole creation is combination of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore everything is Kṛṣṇa. Is it not? Yes. Just like you take milk. From milk you prepare so many milk preparations. You prepare yogurt, you prepare ghee, you prepare rasagullā, you prepare burfi and so many others. But therefore, actually, all of them are milk. This is... Under different combination only. In the milk, if you put some sour thing, it becomes yogurt. But it is milk. And that sour thing also, which is put into the milk, that is also Kṛṣṇa. (break) Why He is originally person, try to understand. And all these energies are imperson. Just like I am a person, you are a person. But when I... My temperature is imperson. Is it not? I have got temperature, if you put thermometer. That is imperson. So person is the origin, and the impersonal temperature is the energy.
Italian Man (1): I see, yes, yes. And the difference between the impersonalist, I mean, and the personalist is that the impersonalist does not believe...
Prabhupāda: No, no, believe... You don't believe or not believe, it doesn't matter. We are explaining science. If somebody says, "No, there is no temperature," that is foolishness. There is temperature. How can you say there is no temperature? There is temperature. Even you go to the water, there is temperature. Everywhere. Because the elements are all there, bhūmir āpo analo vāyu... The beginning is the ākāśa, ether. The ether is in the air, the air is in the fire, the fire is in the water, and the earth is in the water. This is this way. And in the earth you will find everything. You will find air, ether, water, fire, everything. And the final state, it is ether only, originally. So suppose I am breathing. It is ethereal. But so many things are coming. If I am contaminated, by touching my breathing, you will be contaminated, and it will come out as disease.
Italian Man (1): Can you repeat please?
Prabhupāda: Just like this breathing is ethereal, but if there is potency... There is potency. So by being contaminated by my breathing, you become contaminated, and it comes out again as disease. So the ethereal composition is the origin. Then gradually, it develops. Ether into air, air into fire, fire into water, water into earth. (break) ...consideration of the gross thing. How the gross thing coming into existence from subtle thing, they do not know it. That is less intelligent. They cannot think very, what is called, minutely.
Italian Man (1): And beyond ether?
Prabhupāda: Just like the same example. The breathing is coming from a person. So breathing is impersonal, but it is coming from the person. Similarly, originally God is person. In the Bhagavad-gītā everything is explained, "From Me. I am the origin of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is... This has to be..., how everything is coming from Him. And if we understand how it is coming, then we have to accept that it is coming from the person, not from the imperson. Imperson is secondary manifestation of the person. Just like the fire. Fire is the origin. It has got a form. But secondary manifestation of the fire is heat and light. Not that...
Italian man: The second manifestation of fire is heat and light?
Prabhupāda: ...is heat and light.
Italian Man (1): And fire is...?
Prabhupāda: Fire is the origin. That is form. That is not formless. Heat may be formless. Light may be formless, but fire is not formless. Thik hai? If you have got intelligence, then from the form-less, you can approach the form. Just like the sunshine, shining is formless. If you have got form, go to the sun planet. And if you go to the sun planet, you will see the sun-god. But they cannot go. They cannot appreciate that there is a person who is known as sun-god. But it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham... The name is also given, what is the name of that person. (break)