Satsvarūpa: They say that we are also under the control of nature?
Prabhupāda: What?
Satsvarūpa: They don't see that we, that the devotee is actually free of the material nature.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: They say, well, we also, we have to die, we have to grow old. Just because we're Hare Kṛṣṇas...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But we admit that. But you don't admit that. Therefore you are foolish. We admit that "Yes, we are under control." That is the difference between you and me. But you don't admit. Therefore you are foolish.
Nitāi: Usually, they admit.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Nitāi: Usually, they admit that death is certain. But the thing is that they say, what, that you can't do anything about it.
Prabhupāda: That means you are under control. You are not independent.
Satsvarūpa: But we say, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa and you can become free," and they say, "No, I don't see that."
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that a sensible man is that "I am controlled. I am controlled by some other agent of Kṛṣṇa. So why not be controlled directly by Kṛṣṇa." This is sense. I cannot be independent. Just like the government. If somebody says, "I don't agree to be controlled by you," then government will kick with police, with military. That is our position. We are being kicked by the agent of government, material nature. We are desiring in different way to become controller or enjoyer, and we are being offered different facilities, means different types of body, birth and death. So because they have no sense, they have accepted this process. So by the force of nature... "You wanted to desire. You desired this thing. All right, take this body. You wanted to eat without discrimination. All right, take this body of a pig and eat up to stool." That is nature's gift. So therefore he's changing. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kono bhāgyavān jīva. He's going on changing, this dress that dress, that dress, that dress, that dress. But he's not in sense that "How I can stop this change?" That he doesn't know. Now, as Americans, they have so many nice facilities, but you cannot enjoy them. By nature's force, you'll have to change. What you can do? Today you are living on the twenty-fourth floor of this skyscraper, and tomorrow you may become a rat in that room. How you can change it? It is not in your power. The rat is also in the same room and you are also in the same room. Who has made this arrangement?
Nitāi: So they say...
Prabhupāda: The bug is also there. The mosquito is also there. The leader is also there. So, so many bodies, they are in the same room, but the enjoyment is not the same. Leaser's enjoyment is not exactly like the occupier of the room.
Nitāi: So they say that "Because life is temporary, let's live it up."
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is foolish, another foolishness. That is... "You are beating me with your shoes. That's all right, it is temporary. That's all right. Let me go on suffering this." So that is foolishness. He does not think that "Why I have been subjected to be beaten by shoes, insult? All right, I do not mind. It is temporary." That is foolishness.
Nitāi: Well, they think that instead of being beaten that they're having fun, that it's pleasurable.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless he's...
Nitāi: They think, "Let us have all the pleasure we can."
Prabhupāda: That is another māyā's illusion. Unless he thinks it is pleasurable, how he can tolerate? Just like the pig, eating stool. Everyone is thinking, "Aoww", but unless he thinks pleasurable, how he can eat? That is another concession of māyā. Praksepātmikā, āvaraṇātmikā. He's covered by illusion. He is accepting the most abominable thing, but he's thinking, "I'm enjoying." This is called māyā.