Harikeśa: What about lazy people?
Prabhupāda: Let them become śūdra. Let them become servant. After all, unless he works, he cannot get his food. So let him become servant. He has to work to get food. No property. He should not be given any property. If you work, you can get food. Just like animal.
Harikeśa: How in the beginning is it decided that somebody is working and he should be given or not given?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: How in the beginning... Let's say you have a king...
Prabhupāda: Beginning Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: No, no. Let's say you have a king, and he is deciding this person is worthy of...
Prabhupāda: No, no, beginning, Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you read Bhagavad-gītā? You do not know?
Harikeśa: No, no. Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is the social arrangement? What is that?
Harikeśa: That Kṛṣṇa created the four orders.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Kṛṣṇa's advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas.
Harikeśa: No, I was just wondering how one would be able to see who was acting in a certain way unless they were first engaged in something. They have to be doing some activity...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Harikeśa: ...so you can see what kind of quality they have.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Take "everyone is rascal," then train them. That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that "Here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the..." No. First of all take them all rascals, and then train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are brāhmaṇa by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brāhmaṇa, classify him in the brāhmaṇa. One is trained up as kṣatriya, classify him. In this way, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣ...
Harikeśa: And that kṣatriya would engage everyone basically as śūdra and then pick from them.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: He would initially pick...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You pick up... You take the whole mass of people as śūdra. Then...
Harikeśa: Pick out.
Prabhupāda: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya, then he is śūdra. That's all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Śūdra is also required.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now the incentive in modern society to become educated or to become engineer is money. What is the incentive in Vedic culture?
Prabhupāda: There is no need of money. The brāhmaṇa teaches everything free of charge. There is no question of money. Anyone can take education as a brāhmaṇa or a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. There is no... Vaiśya doesn't require any education. Kṣatriyas require little. Brāhmaṇa require. But that is free. Just find out a brāhmaṇa guru and he will give you free education. That's all. This is society. Now, as soon as... At the present moment, as soon as one wants to be educated, he requires money. But in the Vedic society there is no question of money. Education free.
Harikeśa: So the incentive is the happiness in society?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Everyone is hankering after: "Where is happiness?" This will be the happiness. When people will be peaceful, happy in their living condition, that will bring happiness, not by imagining that "If I have got a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and then jump over and commit suicide. That is going on. He is thinking that "If I have a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and when he is frustrated, he jumps down. That is going on. This is happiness. That means all rascals. They do not know what is happiness. Therefore everyone requires guidance from Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now you were saying that there is high rate of suicide here?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Why? This is the country possessing gold mine, and why they are...? And you said that it is difficult to become poor here.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You have to try hard to become poor man here.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And still there is suicide. Why? Every man is rich man, and why he is committing suicide? Hm? Can you reply?
Devotee (1): They lack central happiness?
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no happiness. (pause) Nobody can remain lazy, because he will be hungry. So how he will remain lazy? He'll have to go somewhere, begging food, and he'll say, "First of all work. Then get your food." He'll work. So there is no question of remaining lazy. Just like the hippies. They do not work, but when they do not get food from anywhere, they go and work. Is it not? So he will be obliged to work.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is the incentive, then.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2): Some of them steal. Instead of working, they steal their food.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Steal... When he is arrested, then he has to work in the prison. That's all.
Harikeśa: Chopping rocks.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise whipping. In Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended that instead of keeping yourself lazy without working, better to steal. Better to steal.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How is that?
Prabhupāda: Huh? That is there. Stealing is bad work, bad work. It is also working, but bad work. So Kṛṣṇa recommends that instead of keeping yourself lazy, better do bad work.
Harikeśa: "Action is better than inaction."
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes.
Harikeśa: A man cannot even keep his own body in shape.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So stealing is still better than keeping oneself lazy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "It is better to perform one's duty, even though it may be imperfect, than to perform another's duty"?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (laughter)
Harikeśa: I've always wondered... The food will be taken care of in a perfect varṇāśrama society; government is taken care of...
Prabhupāda: Government means you, like rascal fools like you. So how you will take care?
Harikeśa: When it is properly set up.
Prabhupāda: First of all you see the government, what is government? Government means a pack of rascals and fools. That's all. This is modern government. All these thieves and rogues are voted to be government men. So how you expect good government? It is not possible. "People's government." All people are rascals. That means government rascal. People's government.
Harikeśa: How would the other necessities of life be taken care of, like medical things? If actually they have no knowledge, and they have to require to build these gigantic hospitals...
Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas, the brāhmaṇas will give you medical help. Āyur-Veda. They will read Āyur-Veda. They will give help.
Harikeśa: So the Āyur-Veda possibly can work nowadays.
Prabhupāda: Why not?
Harikeśa: Some people were telling me that the herbs had lost all their effectiveness in the Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Then die. (laughter) Do you mean to say this modern medical treatment is guarantee for your living?
Harikeśa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? That is also not guarantee. If you see the herbs and plants are no more effective, then if there is no guarantee in your modern medical, there is no guarantee. So why should you spend so much money? As soon as I go to a doctor, immediately twenty dollars. As soon as go to purchase some drugs, immediately twenty. If I have no money... And still that is not guarantee, so why shall I spend so much money?
Harikeśa: So actually this money doesn't even exist in Vedic society—money.
Prabhupāda: Money is not required. You require things. Just like instead of money, you are getting papers. Money means gold. Where is gold? You are cheated. Money means gold. So instead of possessing gold, you are possessing some paper, written there, "hundred dollars." And you are such a fool, you are satisfied. You are being cheated. Bank's check and currency notes, you keep it in your..., "Oh, here is my money." Is that money? Just see.
Devotee (3): They only do that to make it easier for them, because they've got so much money that they can't carry it...
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but actually it is not money. You are befooled. You are such a fool that you accept a piece of paper as money. Therefore I say you are rascal. That is my business. If I say "Government, give me gold," and government has passed law, "No, you cannot possess gold," that means cheating. How I shall keep gold, that is my business. First of all you give me gold. It is due to me. But you are giving me paper. That means cheating is begun from you.
Harikeśa: How will the government decide what my gold is and what his gold is? How does the gold get distributed?
Prabhupāda: Gold coins. Formerly there was gold coins. We have seen in our childhood gold coins, silver coins. There was no paper.
Harikeśa: But you have to do something to get it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I will have to do something. That is another thing. But why you are cheating me? Instead of gold, you are giving me paper. Formerly... You have seen in Kṛṣṇa book that one fruit man came, and Kṛṣṇa was taking some grain. It was falling down. So that was the... A fruit man come, and you give him a packet of grain. Then whatever exchange is possible, the fruit man gives you fruit. That's all.