Pañcadraviḍa: ...that these Old and New Testament and Koran, they are the śāstras of the (sic:) yauvanas. They are not the same as the Vedic śāstras. They are not as... They are not bona fide like that.
Pañcadraviḍa: Does this mean they are not authentic or... How did they come here?
Pañcadraviḍa: These Bible and Koran, how did they get here? They were just inventions or what?
Prabhupāda: Convention means they are partially good for the time being, that's all. They are not eternally... Just like in the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." (chuckles) But this is not, does not come within the category of eternal religion. People were so corrupted that they were forbidden, "No, don't do this." "Thou shalt not covet," a little moral instruction. That also, they could not follow. There is no religion. And little God consciousness, "There is God, kingdom of God," little idea for the persons who could understand. Otherwise, do you think that if somebody says, "Thou shalt not kill," is that any religious principle? It is ordinary thing. Where is the question of God?
Pañcadraviḍa: These things, they are also in (sic:) Manu-saṁhitā?
Prabhupāda: That is for... Manu-saṁhitā forbids completely. Manu-saṁhitā is not religion. It is moral principles for conducting society. Religion is how to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is religion. That is natural. (break) "...shalt not kill," this is expectation. "Someday, in future, one may become religious." That's all. Because by killing, killing, they are going downer, down. So if they stop killing, some day they will be able to understand what is religion. Sukṛti. Because, without being freed from all sinful activities, nobody can understand what is God. Therefore about God, in India they can understand very easily. In other countries they cannot. Very few because always engaged in sinful activities, all forbidden sinful activities. Just like you said that gambling has been introduced in religion. Killing has been introduced in religion. What is that religion? The more they take to the sinful activities, the more they become implicated—again birth and birth and birth and birth. Unless one is completely free, he cannot understand what is God. Yeṣam anta-gataṁ pāpam. You know this verse? The Bhagavad-gītā, yes.
Pañcadraviḍa: When one becomes free of sinful activities, then he can begin devotional life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
- yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
- janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
- te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
- bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
- (BG 7.28)
To stick to Kṛṣṇa bhajana is not so easy, that you will go on committing all sinful activities and you will become Kṛṣṇa devotee. That is not possible. You have to give up, and you have to come. But this is the process. You will be free, and you will understand. Guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya (CC Madhya 19.151). If one follows bona fide guru's instruction and he is engaged in devotional service, then it is possible. Then it is possible. Otherwise, if he does whimsically then it will be a failure. He must carry out the instruction of the guru, bona fide guru. Guru means bona fide guru, not pseudo guru. And according... What guru will advise? To be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. These two things will help him. Otherwise it is not possible. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya: "By the mercy of guru and by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa." So both of them should be served. That is the process, not that "Now I have become advanced devotee. I don't require to serve guru." Neither, "Oh, I am serving my guru. I don't care for Kṛṣṇa," no. Parallel line. Not that "One line I can walk," no. Parallel line. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Therefore in our temple, along with Deities, guru is also worshiped. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ, if one accepts guru—"Guru is guru, guru is guru"—as ordinary human being, then that is offense, nārakī buddhi.
Mahāṁsa: That kind of worship is eternal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Janme janme pita sei. Cakhu-dan kilo jei, janme janme pita sei.
Pañcadraviḍa: Where is that śloka you were quoting last night from that ending gokala.
Prabhupāda: Go-kharaḥ, go-kharaḥ. That is in Bhāgavata. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhiḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma idya-dhīḥ (SB 10.84.13). You give him that śloka, (indistinct). So actually at the present moment the whole world is full of go-kharaḥ, that's all, animals. Everyone thinks in terms—"I am this body," that's all. He is not human being, but every so-called civilized man is thinking like that. So where is the civilization of human being? All go-kharaḥs, animals. (break) ...because if you keep all these ingredients, life will come. Is it not?
Pañcadraviḍa: When the soul is entering, they are all complete?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If you keep... A man is dead, and keep his body. So it will decompose, but the life will come. So many worms will come. So these are... If you say that chemicals, these material, then the chemicals are there, and life is coming. Now you take this chemical and prepare. You cannot say, "Although these chemicals are there, there is some deficiency. Therefore the life is not coming." No, why do you say like that? Life is coming. That man is not coming, but the life is coming. So these are ingredients for life. You prepare. You bring that man. Still, the rascal will say that life is made from matter. Not even gentlemen, what to speak of becoming scientist? You prepare. "No, in future we shall see." And he is getting Nobel Prize. Just see how the human society has become full of rascals, go-kharaḥ. They cannot prove; still they will insist, "Yes." And so far God is concerned, we learn from śāstra that God's two energies are working like heat and light. So energies are working, we can see. How these mangoes have come unless there is some energy? So therefore the energy is working. Therefore God is there. Just like as soon as light is there, although we are in the room we can understand that sunlight is there. As soon as the darkness is there, we understand that there is no more sun. So in the presence of energy... Just like in the motor car, before starting, you round the key, and it becomes, "Gut, gut, gut, gut." Now your current is there. The energy is there. So there are symptoms. By symptoms we can understand there is God. Where is the difficulty? And Kṛṣṇa is explaining, "Here, just see the symptom. The taste in the water I am." Then why do you say that you have not seen God? You are liar. You create that taste? Now take sea water and make that taste. Why do you take water from here and there? Sea water is there. Now you take it, and by chemical you create the taste. Why don't you? Therefore, unless God is there, you cannot do that, or God's sanction, you cannot do that. This is reasonable understanding of God, apart from seeing God. And because the taste is there—Kṛṣṇa says-therefore God is there. According to your capacity, you have to see God like that. You cannot see immediately Kṛṣṇa, with dvi-bhuja muralī, playing on flute. That you have no capacity. You have to see God like that. So when the rubber stamp is going to be delivered?
Devotee: I will bring it today.
Prabhupāda: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varṇāśrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brāhmaṇa. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras. What they will understand? Simply śūdras. Factories and this, for technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, "Now we have got everything." On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that śūdra's work, that's all. That does not mean, because he has got money, he has got all knowledge. But people accept, "Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge." That's all. And if you go, if you speak about God, "Oh, these men are beggars. They have made a profession." That's all. So if the society does not accept the proposition of Kṛṣṇa, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13), they will suffer because the God consciousness will be lost. It is already lost. It may not be that everyone is God conscious, but a section... Just like it may not be that everybody is a physician, but a physician must remain there, must be there so that when one is difficulty by disease, the physician may help him. Similarly, if in the society the brāhmaṇa class and above, post-graduate of brāhmaṇa class, Vaiṣṇava, is not there, then the whole society will spoil . They will indulge in this meat-eating and drinking wine and illicit sex. Then it will be hell, and it has already become. Whole world is full of hellish person. In a civilized country like America you cannot walk alone in the street at night. India is still honest. Any part of India, you can walk. Because the more sinful. Is it not? In New York, especially in Brooklyn or anywhere, you cannot walk alone. Is it not? Yes. Your life is at risk. That Central Park, nobody can walk there. I have heard from many women that they rape. The negroes, they capture and rape. Life is unsafe even in a civilized city like New York. So what is this civilization? Our (name withheld) was... (break)