Dr. Patel: A real scientist finds God's working in every cell, every atom, every molecule.
Prabhupāda: No, no, our point is unless one has become Vaiṣṇava, he remains a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is your saying.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement of Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is a fool, rascal. That' s all. This is the conclusion. We are fool, undoubtedly, but we take the words of Kṛṣṇa. He is not fool.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) No, but He says, ye tu sarvāṇī karmāṇi mayi sannyasya mat-parāḥ.
Prabhupāda: The mat-parāḥ, this is mat-parāḥ. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept it. That is mat-parāḥ. Mat-parāḥ means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, accept it. That's all. That is mat-parāḥ. And if I say, "I don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, whether He was existing," that is not mat-parāḥ.
Dr. Patel: That is different.
Prabhupāda: That is different.
Dr. Patel: But Kṛṣṇa says through so many things. Kṛṣṇa says. Through every leaf, every atom...
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: ...every molecule and every living cell, He says what He is.
Prabhupāda: So everyone, our...
Dr. Patel: That is what the scientists think.
Prabhupāda: Scholars, they think like that, "Kṛṣṇa is fictitious. This Bhagavad-gītā was imagined," as if Kṛṣṇa speaking and Arjuna hearing, and there was no war as Kurukṣetra. This is their reply. There was no five thousand years.
Dr. Patel: Suppose, sir, it may be like that, as they say, but this is an acme of the knowledge. That's all. Even though it may be fabricated, it is the acme.
Prabhupāda: Acme of the knowledge you are taking, but you don't believe the source of knowledge. You are so acme of the knowledge. You don't believe in the source of the knowledge, so where is knowledge? That is darkness. Tama and jyoti-two things are there. This material world is tama, darkness, because here actually there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is almost absent. And jyoti means there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That we were discussing last night. Taṭastha-śakti. Taṭastha... The jīvas, they are in the marginal position between tama and jyoti.
Dr. Patel: Tamas is dark and jyoti is light.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So the jīva is between these two things. Therefore they are called taṭastha, marginal. Sometimes you may be in darkness and sometimes you may be in jyoti. That is your position. So those who are accepting Kṛṣṇa's word, they are in jyoti. And those who are interpreting Kṛṣṇa in darkness, they are in darkness. Unless one has accepted Kṛṣṇa as He is, he is in darkness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa describing him, mūḍha, narādhama. That man might have been in the jyoti, but he is losing the chance. Therefore he is mūḍha, narādhama. He had the chance of understanding Kṛṣṇa, but he is neglecting willfully. Therefore mūḍha naradhāma. Men so much learned? māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ: (BG 7.15) That learning has no meaning. That is another darkness. A person, without being learned, he is thinking, "I am learned." That is another darkness. That is another darkness.
Dr. Patel: Abhimānam
Prabhupāda: Abhimānam. A person without knowledge, when he professes to be very learned and intelligent, he is more in darkness.
Dr. Patel: But really, sir, very learned people are very doubtful about their learning, to tell the truth. I had my professor who was a Nobel prize winner in London, and he used to be very doubtful, everything, what he said. "It may be or may not be. Who knows? God only knows," he used to say. So we cannot say that all are in darkness.
Prabhupāda: So if God knows, take the words of God.
Dr. Patel: That he must be taking I mean, in his own way.
Prabhupāda: In his own way he cannot take. (laughter) That is another di... That is another foolishness. You cannot take... No.
Dr. Patel: There are many ways by which to know God, is it not?
Prabhupāda: You must take God's word as it is. That is jyoti. The same example can be... Just like the sunlight. Sunlight is light. You have to take it as it is. If you want to know wherefrom the light is coming, what is there in the sun, that is beyond your jurisdiction. But light is there. Take it. That's all.
Dr. Patel: The scientists will analyze the light and call it...
Prabhupāda: Scientist is a rascal. How can he go to the sun? How can he go the sun and study sun? Therefore he's a rascal. You simply take: "Light is there from the sun." That's all. You go there or not go there, the light is there. You take it. That's all. It finishes the business. This jyoti is called also Brahman. Jyoti. So when you understood, want to understand wherefrom this jyoti or light is coming, Kṛṣṇa is replying, brahmano aham pratistha. Bas, your knowledge is perfect. Why don't you take it? Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of this light."
Dr. Patel: Everything.
Prabhupāda: No, everything means this also. And particularly, particularly He says, brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. So this is the easiest method to get knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Now, brahmaṇo pratiṣṭhāham, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). How the atmā becomes brahma-bhūtaḥ?
Prabhupāda: Take the words of Kṛṣṇa; you become Brahman.
Dr. Patel: That means he becomes Brahman. He realizes himself as Brahman.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Brahman he is, but the rascal, he is thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian." That is rascaldom. He is Brahman. By origin he is Brahman, but rascal, due to his rascaldom, he is thinking that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American." That is rascaldom. Otherwise he's Brahman. So when he gives up this wrong conception of life and accepts that "I am part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman," that is brahma-bhuta (SB 4.30.20). Otherwise he is jīva-bhutaḥ. (aside): Thank you. Jīva bhūtaḥ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat: (BG 7.5) "These living entities, jīva bhūtaḥ, they are conducting the whole universal affairs." Jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate. Without jīva what is the value? These buildings are constructed because the jīvas have taken the material from the matter and done. So everything is like that. Why these trees are there? The jīvas have taken the shape of this tree, and it looks beautiful. Jīva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam... Everything is like that. So that is jīva. So that jīva... In the material concept of life the tree is thinking, "I am tree," the dog is thinking, "I am dog," I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking something else. So this is jīva-bhūta. And when he understands that ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is brahma-bhūta. Simple thing. Ekatvam. Ekatvam...
Dr. Patel: Anupaśyati.
Prabhupāda: Anupaśyati. That ekatvam, when he actually becomes brahma-bhūtaḥ—we understand that all these living entities, we are part and parcel of God, paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18)—that is ekatvam, that "We are all servants." But the rascals are thinking,"I am master."
Dr. Patel: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate.
Prabhupāda: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu means that every one of us, we are servant of God. That is ekatvam. Ekatvam anupaśyati. Anu means always. Anu means following the authority. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) (Hindi) It is not that something, matter, becomes brahma-bhūtaḥ. No. He is Brahman.
Dr. Patel: He realizes that he is Brahman.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all.