Guest (3): Sir, can I speak now?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (3): With your permission, I believe in Gītā. I believe in this thing, that it is the Lord who says:
- sarva-dharmān parityajya
- mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
- ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
- mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ
- (BG 18.66)
And still, He says also in Seventh, Eighth and Ninth Chapters of Gītā that (Sanskrit) "I do not take part in that ordinary things and I cannot be seen by the naked eye."
Prabhupāda: Then you find...
Guest (3): Kṛṣṇa was body incarnate.
Prabhupāda: Then you mean to say that Kṛṣṇa contradicts.
Guest (3): No, not Kṛṣṇa contradicts.
Prabhupāda: Then why you bring this question?
Guest (3): The Gītā, the Gītā is... Sir, if I may be permitted to continue?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (3): Gītā jñāna itself is given by Lord incorporeal, not to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, it is told, at the time the jñāna was given had a body which became divya Vedānta(?).
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your interpretation.
Guest (3): That is exactly what...
Prabhupāda: No, you say. Anyone who... Anyone... Whatever he says, he thinks like that, exact. That is another thing. But we know that Kṛṣṇa had no difference between His body and soul. He is absolute. Now, you are talking from the point of view that Kṛṣṇa's body and Kṛṣṇa's soul is different.
Guest (3): Ah, no... In every body...
Prabhupāda: That is not the fact. That is not the fact.
Guest (1): Sir, Kṛṣṇa could not the two...
Prabhupāda: No, no, you say, "could not," but we do not say like that. Now who will settle up this thing? You say, but I do not say.
Guest (3): If you say, "This is not the body..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We are to speak on the Bhagavad-gītā. We are talking of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that mām ekam. He never says that "to My soul."
Guest (3): No. He says, "I am one."
Prabhupāda: Therefore He is one, both body and soul, one. That is one.
Guest (1): Swamiji, material aspect in your understanding, they are one?
Prabhupāda: Therefore He is nonmaterial. Therefore He has spoken... No, no, if you compare with Him ordinary man, then at once you become a mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. No, you say... This is the saying of Bhagavad-gītā. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā manuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ (BG 9.11). (Hindi) "Because I have taken this human form of life, the rascals, they think I am a human being." It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Guest (2): I think... As my understanding of this aspect is concerned, He says, "When I adopt this medium through which I give this jñāna, mūḍhā-matī do not understand Me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, mūḍhā-matī, how to understand?
Guest (2): "Cannot recognize Me."
Prabhupāda: Suppose I am mūḍhā-matī, so how I am to understand?
Guest (2): Yes, but Kṛṣṇa as a body form could be seen and could be recognized by people as such. So there was no question of not understanding him.
Prabhupāda: Thing is that whatever I have understood about Kṛṣṇa I haven't got to learn from you.
Guest (2): No, you don't have to learn from me.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Guest (2): But what you have to learn...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking my own views. I have got my ācāryas, my teachers, Rāmānujācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya. So it is all right. It is all right. I have got so many authorities. What authority you have got?
Guest (2): I am, myself, in my own senses...
Prabhupāda: Now, you are not authority.
Guest (2): I am not but my own...
Prabhupāda: I am following so many authorities. Then... Then there is no question.
Guest (2): I am only...
Prabhupāda: You are yourself authority. Now, if you say my views are not correct, I may be incorrect but I am following the predecessor. I am taking...
Guest (2): What is the difference there? Sir, I accept that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): Hundred per cent, you are very correct in saying what you have just said.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): I want to understand that point of view. That is why I have come.
Prabhupāda: But this is the point of understanding. That I have already told you, in the Bhagavad-gītā, that if you want to understand, first of all you have to surrender.
Guest (2): Surrender to whom? Not to the ācāryas but to the...
Prabhupāda: First of all find out whom to surrender, then talk.
Guest (2): ...supreme ācārya
Prabhupāda: That's all right. If you think that you are not fit for my surrender, that's all right. But first of all you find out somebody where you can surrender; then talk.
Guest (1): To jñāna-datta Himself.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. If you surrender and if you get jñāna-datta, that is all right. So far we are concerned, if we do not surrender, if you do not surrender, then you simply waste our time, idle talk. This is not the process.