Prabhupāda: ...is that nṛpa-liṅga-dharaṁ śūdram. The śūdras, fourth-class men, they are on the government executive. This is one defect. And another defect is ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā, maintaining large-scale slaughterhouse. These are the two defects of modern civilization. They..., on the top of government there are śūdras, not kṣatriyas. Neither they are guided by intelligent class, brāhmaṇas. Parīkṣit Mahārāja's first beginning is dvija-varya-śikṣayā. The guidance was first-class brāhmaṇas, and he was a kṣatriya, first-class. And there was no animal slaughterhouse. They are also suffering. They are bringing every day some problem. "What is the solution of this problem, what is this solution...?" But why the problems are coming? Because the defect is there that the, on the head of the government there are śūdras and they are busy in cow-killing, maintaining slaughterhouse. This is the defect. And they are not guided by the first-class, intelligent class of men.
Sudra (Conv. 1974 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Yaśodānandana: ...you mentioned that the vaiśyas, they are considered to be the capitalists and the śūdras, they are considered to be the Communist. And you mentioned that eventually the communists will take over the capitalists. So how long do you think that will happen?
Prabhupāda: What's the use? Why shall I think like that? Let them go to hell, and let us go back to home, back to Godhead. Why shall I waste our time? We can advise them, "Do this. You will be happy." If they do not take, then we don't bother anymore. We are not social welfare worker or political worker. We are worker for Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...in this world that people are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let us try to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our only interest. Otherwise we have no interest in this material world. Let them do their own duty and suffer or enjoy. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu (BG 9.29). Samaḥ. Samatā. We are not social worker or political worker. We are Kṛṣṇa worker. So we give advice to them that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and all problems will be solved." That is our duty; and to advise him, to convince him, to give him all facilities. Still, if he does not take, then we are not going to see how long he will suffer, how he will stop. Let them do their own business.
Prabhupāda: And nowadays bribe also.
Guest: Yeah. This is a must.
Prabhupāda: Fourth-class, śūdra (indistinct), bribe.
Guest (1): (indistinct) one of the partners. (indistinct) another partner.
Guest (2): (indistinct) The demand it as a bribe also.
Guest (1): (indistinct) your partner like that?
Guru dāsa: Because blind leaders, we have allowed bribery to come about. In the passport line you have to stand because they suspect one thief. Every man who is a gentleman also has to stand and be inspected. It's Kali-yuga.
Guest (1): One thing is there, when I am worried about this thing or that thing, this is the place where I get peace of mind. I forget everything.
Prabhupāda: That's a fact.
Guest (2): It is vaidyic. All vaidyas are brāhmaṇas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, vaidyas means father brāhmaṇa, mother śūdra. That is vaidya.
Dr. Patel: They are sūtas.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Sūtas are brāhmaṇa mother and father, father kṣatriya. These sūt... No? Those brāhmaṇas were sūtas.
Prabhupāda: No. Sūtas means carpenter. Śūdra. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (japa) (break) ...government minister, he has frankly said that "We do not want you to grow here." You know that?
Dr. Patel: Who is that minister?
Prabhupāda: The Home Minister, Havas(?), in Delhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I don't know why they... So they are all śūdras, these, these daityas.
Prabhupāda: Not śūdras. They are less than śūdras.
Dr. Patel: Actually, they are the relatives of...
Prabhupāda: Mleccha. They have been described in the Bhāgavata: mlecchā rājanya-rūpiṇaḥ. Mlecchas, they will assume as kṣatriya government. Mlecchā rājanya-rūpiṇaḥ. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajās te mlecchā rājanya-rūpiṇaḥ.
Dr. Patel: These fellows created such a horrible state. They actually broke down the temple.
Prabhupāda: That is a...
Dr. Patel: Why? Why? Why? What, what wrong these boys are doing to them? If any wrong is done to them, it is done by me because I am giving so much botheration to them.
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is that wrong that we are preaching no meat-eating, no intoxication. We are the greatest criminal.
Dr. Patel: You say that those gurus who appear as material body, you are not to take it as a material body. Say that way. Because we are little...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not to take it. It is actually. If it is material body, then how they are getting benefits? If it is a material body. The same example: if it is iron rod, how it is burning? It is fire. When there is burning, you must assume it is fire. Why do you take, "Oh, it is iron rod"? Phalena paricīyate. Phalena paricīyate. By the result you have to... Therefore it is said, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. We, we have no direct contact with Bhagavān, but guru, being representative of Bhagavān, if we satisfy guru, then Bhagavān becomes... Identical. Therefore it is warned: vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Similarly, vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Here is a European Vaiṣṇava, he's Indian Vaiṣṇava, it is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava and śūdra Vaiṣṇava." No. That is also, that is also offense.
Prabhupāda: ...it will be constituted, that. Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they'll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll not be saved. The varṇāśrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varṇāśrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brāhmaṇa; one class, kṣatriya; one class, vaiśya; and one class, śūdra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the śūdras.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Bhagavān: Are śūdras supposed to take sannyāsa also?
Prabhupāda: No, why?
Bhagavān: Śūdras...
Prabhupāda: Those who are śūdras, they should not be allowed to take sannyāsa. Only those who are qualified brāhmaṇas, they'll be allowed to take sannyāsa.
Bhagavān: Kṣatriyas used to take sannyāsa too?
Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas... Some of them. Not all.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jagadīśa: In a varṇāśrama society, are most of the citizens śūdras?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jagadīśa: Are the majority of citizens śūdras? In a varṇāśrama society?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The number of śūdras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post-graduates, they're less. Others are big, number bigger.
Bhagavān: The whole idea is that at the end of everyone's life, everyone is required to leave home, perform devotional activities, but not necessarily take sannyāsa.
Prabhupāda: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn't matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brāhmaṇas. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kṣatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaiśya. And the balance, they're all śūdras. This is the division. You... Everywhere you'll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, śūdra. That's all. So in our society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely. Everyone is engaged, not that eating and sleeping. Everyone must be engaged, employed.
Hṛdayānanda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?
Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was acting as a kṣatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaiśya. But Kṛṣṇa is neither kṣatriya nor, nor brāhmaṇa. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaiśya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kṣatriya. He was marrying as a kṣatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kṣatriya, sometimes as vaiśya, but He's neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa...
Tamāla-Kṛṣṇa: In our centers we are awarding brāhmaṇa initiation, second initiation...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Initiation should go on. Even... You do not understand what I have said, that that is for Vaiṣṇava. A Vaiṣṇava and Viṣṇu... Just like Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu, He's not human being, but He was acting like human being, similarly, Vaiṣṇava is transcendental. But for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like brāhmaṇa, one should be acting like kṣatriya. That is required. Just like actually we are doing so. Some of you are preaching, and some of you are cleansing the temple. It does not mean that a sannyāsī who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The... Their position as Vaiṣṇava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that "Because I have taken sannyāsa, therefore I cannot any more do anything." If need be, he has to act as kṣatriya. Or a śūdra. It doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Doesn't matter. But manage, for management, this division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement. Yes. A Vaiṣṇava coming to the position of doing the work of a śūdra does not mean he has become śūdra. He's Vaiṣṇava. Try to understand this point. Just like in the stage. If you want to play something, one must be king, one must be queen, one must be..., but neither of them king or queen. That is stage play. Similarly to manage things in the material world we have to... Guṇa, karma. Karma there must be. Therefore the karma should be done, executed, according to quality.
Prabhupāda: Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is śūdra business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Is it difficult? This is the business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a kṣatriya, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a brāhmaṇa, or as a kṣatriya, or as a vaiśya, or as a śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: What kind of training is there for a śūdra?
Prabhupāda: Śūdra is general assistant.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, just...
Prabhupāda: Order-carrier. He has no intelligence. He doesn't require intelligence. "Do this." That's all.
Satsvarūpa: What would he learn at the school, though?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Satsvarūpa: What would his business be at that varṇāśrama college?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is śūdra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, vaiśya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and ārati. And balance—he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit.
Yaduvara: What class does the arts and crafts come under?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Śūdra.
Yaduvara: Śūdra.
Prabhupāda: They are śūdras. Little arts and crafts can be trained up to the śūdras. They, at the present moment, they have given too much stress on the arts and crafts.
Yaduvara: Hm. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the whole people, population, is śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: It is a fact.
Prabhupāda: That is a... That is the difficulty. All people are being drawn by giving them, I mean to say, attraction for high salary, and they are taking so-called technical education, and all of them working in the factory. Nobody's working on the field. They are śūdras. (break)
Hṛdayānanda: ...artist is accepted as a philosopher in life.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: In our society (break) ...accepted (break) ...as a philosopher.
Prabhupāda: Artist?
Hṛdayānanda: Yeah, the artist.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Artist is also business of the śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, but in our... I'm saying, in modern society in America, they are considered... (break)
Prabhupāda: Nonsense philosophy. They do not know what is the meaning of philosophy.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is philosophy. Darśana. Darśana means search out what is the ultimate. Jñānī ca bharatarṣabha (BG 7.16). Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārto 'rthārthī jñānī ca bharatarṣabha, arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur jñānī ca bharatarṣabha. These are philosophers. Even the ārtaḥ, even a distressed person, he is praying to the Supreme Authority, "My God, I am very much hungry. Kindly give me my daily bread." He's also philosopher, because he's searching out the Absolute Truth. He's philosopher. Not this Freud rascal, elaborating how to have sex life. So this kind of philosopher, they... What is called? In Bengali: vane haye śṛgāla rājā.(?) "In the jungle a jackal becomes a king." So because western people, they have no... They're all less than śūdras. So a Freud has become a philosopher. Vane haye śṛgāla rājā. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than śūdras and caṇḍālas. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don't mind. I am using very strong words. That is the fact.
Hṛdayānanda: It's true. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the śūdras or the kṣatriyas... Just like kṣatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.
Hṛdayānanda: What he kills.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kṣatriyas, they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhīma, Bhīma also eating sometimes meat. Bhīma. Amongst the Pāṇḍavas, only Bhīma. Not others. So if the kṣatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the śūdras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the caṇḍālas.
Hṛdayānanda: But never the cow.
Prabhupāda: No. Cow... The śūdras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kālī, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Caṇḍī-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition.
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is this school for women also, or just for men?
Prabhupāda: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home.
Satsvarūpa: So they don't attend varṇāśrama college.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Varṇāśrama college especially meant for the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Those who are not fit for education, they are śūdras. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education-śūdra means. That's all. They should assist the higher class.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh. It's very exciting, Prabhupāda, because all the, at the present time in the...
Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that actually, at the present moment, they are śūdras or less than śūdras. They are not human beings. The whole population of the world. It doesn't matter whether it is western or eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up, so the society's already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos, chaos. It will be hell. How people will live? And these rascals are being elected as government men, and they're only making budget how to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice, especially in India; and one side, heavy tax. So they'll be all confused. They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given.
Prabhupāda: But if some of the kṣatriya or the śūdras, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the kṣatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. Bās. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bās. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.
Hṛdayānanda: Those who cannot preach.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as kṣatriya or vaiśya, or as śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: And sometimes...
Prabhupāda: Not he's śūdra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy.
Hṛdayānanda: So we should encourage people, young people, young students to come to our college.
Prabhupāda: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come.
Hṛdayānanda: Room and board and training.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life. So-called education. Sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way, śūdra.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Thirty years they are struggling for United Nations, big, big expenditure, so many humbug, bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, humbug program, and no result. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And for temporary, so-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was spoken by Prahlāda Mahārāja to Nṛsiṁha-deva. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). (break) ...business has become like Prahlāda Mahārāja. We can chant anywhere. That's all right. Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. We have no business to do. But we have to take them because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take it. (break) ...devotee, personally, he has no problem, but he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach them how to live, how to become gentlemen. Therefore... Otherwise, we have no business. But if we don't give them the opportunity, they'll not be able to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...it will be good for you because Kṛṣṇa will see, "Oh, here is My devotee. He's doing so much for me." Your service will be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Don't think that because you are teaching a śūdra how to work like this, you have become a śūdra. You are not śūdras, any circumstances. Even though you teach to a śūdra how to work like a śūdra. (break) ...stand. Don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear?
Satsvarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Samaḥ damaḥ titikṣavaḥ ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam. You do not read Bhagavad-gītā, you are publishing for selling. It will be read by others. We are simply to make money? These are in the Bhagavad-gītā. Don't you read it?
Devotee: Yes I read it. The qualities of a brāhmaṇa is given, along with the qualities of all the other varṇas.
Prabhupāda: We have..., taking sacred thread has qualities less than śūdra. Camaras, cobblers. Camara means expert in skin. I am white, I am black, I am this, I am that. That is camara. Expert in skin. (break) People are very receptive?
Devotee: Yes, especially Gujarati and Marwari communities.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Devotee: The south Indians, they are not so receptive. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...men, so everyone should be very alert in their behavior. Rising early in the morning, taking bath, be prepared for maṅgala āratik immediately. Then class. Everything in regulated way. (break) ...and still everyone comes to the point, "I know everything." This point.
Dr. Patel: The karma of a man depends upon his position in the society...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, (etc.)
Dr. Patel: ...whether he's a kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra whether he's a sannyāsī or a gṛhastha. That karma. And that karma when he does without any expectation of any fruits, that karma is as good as bhakti according to this line, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Without... The result should be there, but tam, unto Kṛṣṇa. Give the result to Kṛṣṇa. Tam abhyarcya. Not self. You earn lakhs of rupees, but tam abhyarcya, give to Kṛṣṇa. Not take it yourself or distribute amongst your children. That is service. Tam abhyarcya. Tam abhyarcya. First of all understand this word, tam. Tam abhyarcya.
Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya, karmaṇā.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: ...we are servant. That I have explained several times. Yesterday also I explained. That, our constitutional position as servant, cannot be changed. Just like śūdra, servant. What is called here? The servant class?
Dr. Patel: Śūdra.
Prabhupāda: What do they say?
Dr. Patel: They cannot work for me.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: Servants.
Prabhupāda: The domestic servants. What do you call? Ramaya (?), servants.
Guest (1): No, but I have read in Manu-smṛti that all these śūdras also, after the age of forty years, they come to the stage of brāhmaṇas. I don't know how.
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no bar. One may be... One may be uneducated now. He can be educated.
Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya, he becomes a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. After forty years of age.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya...
Dr. Patel: Because he, by his own action, becomes brāhmaṇa because he does the service of the Lord.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyone who is engaged in the arcanā of the Supreme, he's neither of these: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. He is Brahman, he has realized Brahman.
Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhuto 'bhijāyate.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is no more śūdra or brāhmaṇa. In the material world, even if you become a brāhmaṇa, that is not a very good position. That is māyā: "I am brāhmaṇa."
Dr. Patel: But a sannyāsīs are also from the varṇāśrama.
Prabhupāda: They are also. They are also. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has denied: "I am not a sannyāsī, I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a vaiśya, none of these." He said, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). "I am the servant of the servant of Gopī-bhartuḥ." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's identification. So those who are actually in the, engaged in the service of the Lord, they are beyond, transcendental to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya... Yes.
Dr. Patel: Nāham...
Guest (1): (Sanskrit) (break)
Dr. Patel: That is not Māyāvādī. That is not Māyāvādī.
Prabhupāda: That is... That is... That is not. I don't... If I say "I am not Indian, I am not American. I am Brahman," that is not Māyāvāda.
Dr. Patel: (break) ...that is completely verse.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I said that in the Vedas there are so many injunctions for different men, because the population, the sattva, rajo, tamo-guṇa, some of them are śūdras, some of them are kṣatriyas, some of them are vaiśyas, some of them are brāhmaṇa; therefore different ways of inducing them is there. But because something is there for inducing the śūdras in the Vedas, you cannot say, "No, this is not required." That is also required, for the śūdras, not for you.
Indian man (4): No, but then he...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedas means helping everyone. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ.
Indian man (3): It is the māyā.
Prabhupāda: By killing, yes. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Your aim should be to go above this qualities of material.
Prabhupāda: But Vedas are describing... When Vedas are describing something for the benefit of the śūdras, because it is meant for the śūdras, you cannot condemn it.
Dr. Patel: But then you should not take part in it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right. My point is that something is meant for the śūdras.
Dr. Patel: No that's right, but he has not condemned the yajña, he has made the injunction that you must not take part...
Prabhupāda: That's right... Just like in a drug shop, there are... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. There are many kinds of drugs. So something is not meant for a certain patient. But he cannot say, "I don't like this drug."
Dr. Patel: Right. (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: That is also drug...
Dr. Patel: Right.
Prabhupāda: Whole, yes. That doesn't matter whether you are śūdra or brāhmaṇa. Your aim should be how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is perfect.
- ya imaṁ puruṣaṁ sākṣād
- ātma-prabhavam īśvaram
- na bhajanty abhijānanti
- sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ
Dr. Patel: They fall down from their own position.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya, śūdra. If you are conscious that "I have to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead according to my capacity of work," then he'll not fall down. He'll not fall down. (break) ...fall down from the position, then it is dead society. It is not living society. At the present moment. Yes. If you don't find actual brāhmaṇa, don't find actual kṣatriya, don't find actual vaiśya, so all śūdras. And there is no guide. Therefore chaotic condition. (break) ...ship without rudder? What is called? Yes. They do not know what is the aim of life. Ask any leader. The leader, he says, "No, this aim of life is to drink and enjoy. That's all." This is going on. After diplomacy, politics, when they are tired, they go to the hotel or club and enjoy and drink. That's all. This is their aim of life. (break) ...countries there are even shops, they indulge all these things, topless, bottomless, like that. Because that is the only solace to this materialistic life. There is no other. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). That is their... They have no other pleasure except that sex life. They have no information that there is another pleasure. That, they, they are not educated. So they must come to the sex life only.
Dr. Patel: We are forgetting Sanskrit very quickly.
Prabhupāda: No, no, those who are interested...
Dr. Patel: Now the schools, they don't teach as in our times. (break)
Prabhupāda: As soon as the kṣatriyas were negligent, immediately the brāhmaṇas should take step. That was the system. (break) ...offer advice to the kṣatriyas according to śāstra, and kṣatriyas would execute, and the vaiśyas would care for supply. And the śūdras, serving everyone. That's all. This is the system. (break) So he used to manufacture. To manufacture means śūdra. (end)
Prabhupāda: What do they know about Vedas? If they did know, then they should have stuck up in family life, in kūpa-māṇḍukya and gṛhambhara, they have. They do not know what is Vedas. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Vedas means to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is knowledge of Veda. In the Bhagavad-gītā.
Yaśomatīnandana: That is the special quality of Kali-yuga, that śūdra class people will take up the preaching of Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And even followers of Śaṅkarācārya... Śaṅkarācārya does not give anyone any recognition unless he's a sannyāsī. That is the strict principle of Śaṅkara sampradāya. They are gṛhamedhis and they are thinking they are advanced in spiritual consciousness. Śaṅkarācārya does not give anyone any position unless he is in the renounced order of life.
Prabhupāda: He is in the heart of a dog also. Then dog is also Kṛṣṇa. So why one should go to the temple? He can worship his dog at home. If this logic is all right. (break) ...the verdict of the Rāmakrishna mission, "You can worship whatever you like. That is God." And therefore they have manufactured this word, daridra-nārāyaṇa. (break) Jāta-karma-saṁskāra, saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformatory method, begins before the birth. Before the birth, when the father and mother have sex, that is called garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. That is also another ceremony. It is not a hidden fact. So saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. Otherwise it is birth like cats and dogs. That is Vedic civlization, saṁskāra before the birth and immediately after the birth, then one after another. This is called jata-karma; then nāma-karma; then when he is grown boy, upanayana-saṁskāra, dīkṣā-saṁskāra; then when he is grown up and marriage... Marriage is also another saṁskāra. In this way there are daśa-vidha-saṁskāra. So unless one goes through all the saṁskāras, he is not accepted as higher caste. He is śūdra. In a brāhmaṇa family, if the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, so it is said that immediately the whole family becomes śūdra, no more brāhmaṇas. Then where is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is going on? Nobody takes care of garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. Still, they are declaring that "I am brāhmaṇa." Therefore the conclusion is kālau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "Everyone is śūdra." (break) ...no education. Still, one is called paṇḍitji. What is the meaning of this "paṇḍitji?" If he is not learned, then why do you call him paṇḍitji? (laughing) (break) That paṇḍiya is also another form of paṇḍita.
Indian Man (2): Arjuna also says that he cannot see God. He saw the light only.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was speaking with Kṛṣṇa. Still, he said that "I cannot see You." That is a fact. (break) Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). If you have got qualified eyes, you can see Kṛṣṇa always, twenty-four hours. So we have to qualify, purify. Sarvopādhi-vinir... You are seeing. You are trying to see God as American, as Indian, as this and that. With that eyes you cannot see. When you are neither American nor Indian nor brāhmaṇa nor śūdra, you are pure spirit, then you can see. They want to remain with this designation-body and want to see God. That is not possible. To enter fire you have to become fire. Otherwise, it will be not possible to enter fire. So without Brahman realization, you cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). (break) ...is the same. Quality, it is same. It is salt, salty. And the whole ocean is also salty. That is tat tvam asi. "You are also salty," if I say. If the drop of the water, I say that "This is also salty," that is tat tvam asi. Not that he has become the whole sea. This is rascaldom. (break) ...God create another ocean in the sky. Then you are God. When there is some tooth pain, you go to the doctor, and you are God. Just see how much nonsense they are. As soon as there is tooth pain, "Oh, oh. Just now I am not God, I am patient." So these things are going on. I have seen so many gods. I have seen one that Dr. Misra. When he had a toothache, "Ohhh, oh." You see? (break) ...cheap philosophy, by misunderstanding the whole world has become atheists, all rascals. Atheist means rascal number one, mūḍhāḥ, āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. As soon as one becomes atheist, he is rascal number one.
Prabhupāda: That is avidhi-pūrvakam. That is said, avidhi-pūrvakam, "Not in order."
- ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā
- yajanti śraddhānvitāḥ
- te 'pi mām eva kaunteya
- yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam
That is not vidhi. Vidhi is here. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam. The first word is Viṣṇu, of Viṣṇu, not of any other. So these are the demonstration of bhakti. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ (SB 7.5.23). This is arcanā. Just like we perform in the morning, in the evening, at noon, arcā-vigraha. Viṣṇu, arcayam, Viṣṇu. It is not idol worship. Arcayaṁ viṣṇu-śilā-dhiḥ. If one thinks the arcā-mūrti, the worshipable Deity in the temple, as stone or as wood, arcayaṁ viṣṇu-śilā-dhiḥ guruṣu nara-matiḥ... To accept guru, in the paramparā system... All the gurus in the paramparā system... Evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). Nara-matiḥ, consider him as ordinary human being... In this way there is a list. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. A Vaiṣṇava, a devotee: "He is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava. He is American Vaiṣṇava. He is śūdra Vaiṣṇava."
Indian man (1): Our mental condition has improved.
Prabhupāda: No, that does not mean... There are ghosts. Ghost means subtle life. It is not gross. So people know and has got some idea of the ghost, but they have no descriptive idea. Here is a descriptive idea. That is śāstra. Just like less than the śūdras, it is called pañcamas. How many pañcamas are there, that is described in the Bhāgavata. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanaḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). That is śāstra. Gives full explanation, full knowledge. Śāstra cakṣuṣā. We have to accept through the śāstra. Not that "Because I have not seen, therefore it is false." No. Vyāsadeva has no business to tell you something false. Otherwise he would not have been accepted as the supreme guru by all the sampradāyas. You cannot defy Vyāsadeva. He is saying, you have to accept. "I have seen. I have no experience," that doesn't matter. So many things you do not know. Just like a child has no experience what is the other side of the sea. Does it mean that there is nothing? A child may say like that, but a person who has visited the Arabian countries and others, "Oh no, no, no. There are so many things." So experience should be taken from a person who has got real experience. Not that "Because I cannot see, it is void." That is not experience.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...social divisions. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The other varṇas, they would give simply to the brāhmaṇas charity. And the brāhmaṇas were so advanced that simply by their blessing, they will get all benefit. So there must be a class of men who can actually benefit simply by blessing and the society must maintain them. This is real society. And everyone is śūdra, engaged in technology—then what benefit you will get? Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. There must be a brahminical class, a kṣatriya class, a vaiśya class, a śūdra class. Not that all śūdras. Then what will be going on? That is the condition. Everyone is being educated as śūdra. Then what benefit you will get? That is the defect. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Therefore there must be a brahminical class.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Advanced in knowledge, who can teach other people nicely. And they can guide. There must be. That brāhmaṇa means spiritual guidance, kṣatriya means material guidance. So these things are necessity. But where are those brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas? They are training everyone śūdra. Work hard like hogs and dogs and fill up your hungry belly. That's all. This is the modern civilization. (break) ...Kali-yuga's symptoms: dakṣyam udaraṁ bharitaḥ. One man is supposed to be very expert who has learned how to fill up his belly. That's all. No other knowledge is required. Whether you have sumptuously put foodstuff within your belly. And then it is... You are very expert person. (break) ...saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). That is mentioned in the śāstra, that those who have got good brain, in this age they will perform this yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Sumedhasaḥ. Others they will bother with so many things, but this yajña should be introduced, and people should be engaged in performing this yajña. Then everything will be all right.
Dr. Patel: Boys and cows and calves and all...
Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. This is Kṛṣṇa. (break) They are Śyāmasundara, but they are playing a different part in the face of their parents.
Dr. Patel: You are the old man with the (indistinct) this and you are the young boy and you are the... (break)
Prabhupāda: Her mother sent him to become a śūdra. So he had to correct it again, but he is fortunate enough that he has come forward to correct himself. That is...
Yaśomatī-nandana: My question is Prabhupāda, that these boys and cows are viṣṇu-tattvas. They are not jīvas.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, viṣṇu-tattva, certainly. That will be explained later on. They...
Dr. Patel: Even jīva-tattva is part of viṣṇu-tattva. Everything comes from Viṣṇu.
Prabhupāda: No. (break) ...between viṣṇu-tattva and jīva-tattva...
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu-tattva. They are viṣṇu-tattva. They are the spirit soul, they are varieties. Mamaivāṁśa. Just like aṁśa. Suppose if you break one brick, some fragments come out. All the fragments are not of the same size. There are different size. Similarly, although all the living entities are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, their constitution of impotence are different. (break) There are divisions, divisions, subdivisions.
Prabhupāda: That's all. My things were stolen from my apartment in the beginning, so I went to the police. They simply noted down. That's all. (break) ...you can narrate the incidents when the negro at San Francisco...
Lilavati: Yes, we were...
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Kṣatriya, this is all finished. Now only śūdras and, little vaiśyas there are.
Dr. Patel: No, here, here you have got also brāhmaṇas.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: But they don't follow them. Nobody follows them.
Prabhupāda: No...
Dr. Patel: Many people.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted. It doesn't matter. Nanda Mahārāja, a vaiśya. Arjuna is a kṣatriya. And there are many śūdras also. So what is that goat(?) caṇḍāla. He was a caṇḍāla. But everyone has got the right to become a devotee. That is wanted. (break) ...tanuvān manobhiḥ. Remain in your place, but giving aural reception to the Kṛṣṇa message, you become a devotee. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't ask anybody to change. We want to make him transcendental. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). (break) Brahma-stuta śruti-kārayan. Now, in the brahma-stuta, yaṁ brahma, beginning... So that is yaṁ brahma. Then simply if you recite, yaṁ brahma... You must know who is that yam. And that is being explained by Kṛṣṇa. Here is that yam, Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varṇāśrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brāhmaṇa. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras. What they will understand? Simply śūdras. Factories and this, for technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, "Now we have got everything." On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that śūdra's work, that's all. That does not mean, because he has got money, he has got all knowledge. But people accept, "Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge." That's all.
Prabhupāda: He is a śūdra.
Nitāi: Would we retrain him as a farmer?
Prabhupāda: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that śūdra also.
Nitāi: He can remain in the factory.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brāhmaṇa. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, śūdra is as important as the brāhmaṇa, provided he helps the movement, Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a śūdra should be working as a brāhmaṇa, no. But everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required.
Nitāi: So in that case he is a śūdra, and he is also doing the work of a...
Prabhupāda: Then he is not a śūdra. One who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He is devotee. He is brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Apparently he looks like śūdra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Therefore anyone who takes, "Oh, here is an American Vaiṣṇava, here is an Indian Vaiṣṇava," that is nārakī. He is Vaiṣṇava. That understanding required.
Prabhupāda: Any engagement, any engagement for Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaiṣṇava. He is above all these.
Pañcadraviḍa: A śūdra, if he is working, he cannot take brāhmaṇa initiation, but he can take hari-nāma, is that it?
Prabhupāda: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brāhmaṇa, as śūdra, as kṣatriya, like that.
- sa guṇān samatītyaitān
- brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
- māṁ ca vyabhicariṇi
- bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate
- (BG 14.26)
A devotee, because he is working as a śūdra, he is not a śūdra; neither he is a brāhmaṇa. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the śūdra's work nicely—let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?
Pañcadraviḍa: What if the person working as śūdra says, "I can do so much. I can...,"
Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He may act like a śūdra, but he is not śūdra. He may act like a brāhmaṇa; he is not brāhmaṇa. He is Vaiṣṇava. Just like gopīs. The gopīs, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brāhmaṇa class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū-vargeṇa. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Kṛṣṇa. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra or vaiśya. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The only business is to see: sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... (SB 1.2.6). Aiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. That is wanted.
Prabhupāda: Legs are already there. Everyone is now legs. So they can be promoted to become heads. What is the difficulty? Everyone is in the eighth class. Does it mean that he cannot pass MA examination? If he is trained up, he can pass M.A. exam...
Akṣayānanda: But as long as there is material world, there will always be śūdras.
Prabhupāda: They are all śūdras. Not will be. All, everyone is śūdras. This movement is to promote the śūdras to the highest class, Vaiṣṇava, more than brāhmaṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Everyone is rascal, śūdra. (break) ...śūdras should be elevated, elevated, but when even a śūdra is engaged in the service of the Lord, he becomes transcendental, above brāhmaṇa. (break)
Akṣayānanda: It said that eight people were shot in Aurangabad with student riots, and the police got their guns and they started to shoot all the people. The same thing is happening in Gaya. The students are protesting against this and that. It said that they were protesting against degradation.
Prabhupāda: Degradation?
Akṣayānanda: Yes.
Akṣayānanda: No. One may come out of a thousand.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to remain in degradation, and they will protest again. Therefore to save the degradation, this cātur-varṇyam must be established. That I... The ideal class. People will follow, "Oh, here is the ideal class." So we are trying to make an ideal class of Kṛṣṇa conscious people. And if you treat yourself as degraded, then who will care for you? You should remain an ideal class. People will follow gradually.
Mahāṁsa: If a brāhmaṇa class is created, then automatically the kṣatriyas and vaiśyas and śūdras will be changed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The ideal, if you be ideal class, gradually they will take your advice, what to do. Then immediately the whole degradation will be finished.
Satsvarūpa: Why will they take advice? Will they actually be attracted to the virtues?
Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Just like people come to see me. Similarly, everyone comes.
Prabhupāda: You see? They should have given to us for distributing Kṛṣṇa consciousness all..., but these rascals will not do that.
Indian man (3): "In the Vedic scriptures, therefore, one is recommended to give charity to a brāhmaṇa."
Prabhupāda: Because they are not brāhmaṇa. All śūdras, Communist.
Dr. Patel: Janma jāyate śūdraḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially, especially that Andhra government is Communist government.
Indian man (3): "And by so doing, one pleases Lord Viṣṇu and all the demigods. The pilgrims take bath, worship the Deity and give in charity. They are also recommended to fast one day." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...that after attaining human form of body he is not degraded.
Dr. Patel: That is wrong.
Prabhupāda: It is wrong.
Prabhupāda: ...Vaiṣṇava kavi has sung,
viṣaya chāriyā, se rase mājīyā,
- mukhe bala hari hari
Unless you are free from the material desires, you cannot enjoy what is the celestial or spiritual bliss in chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. If one has got material desires, he cannot enjoy.
viṣaya chāriyā, se rase mājīyā,
mukhe bala hari hari
(break) ...can see here United Nation actually. Here is Britisher, here is American, here is African, here is Indian, here is Hindu, Canadian, Hindu, Muslim, Christian-all. This is United Nation. Just let them see practically what is United Nation. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—all combined in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do they not see? The so-called unity, brotherhood, why do they not see the reality?
Gurudāsa: They're going to the cities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be satisfied to become a petty clerk and get some very little income. They will be satisfied. They don't want to be śūdra. That is the real śūdra. They are satisfied simply by eating, that's all. No ambition.
Gurudāsa: So somehow or other we have to attract some śūdras to our movement if we want to work self-sufficiently.
Prabhupāda: So for the time being, what is to be done? We shall take it, then we shall see, find out śūdra, (indistinct) better price. But we will require more land.
Gurudāsa: We will require a self-sufficient... Not only land, but we require a self-sufficient community.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted.
Richard Webster: Is this due to machines, do you think, to the prevalence of machines?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is due to third-class, fourth-class men. There is no first-class men. The brāhmaṇas are considered to be first-class men, the kṣatriyas are considered to be second-class men, and the vaiśyas, they are third-class men, and rest, all fourth-class and fifth-class. So at the present moment there is third-class, some, and all fourth-class and fifth-class. There is no first-class and second-class men. So unless they are, at least some of them are first-class men, ideal, the human society is doomed. It cannot be peaceful. Full of śūdras, fourth-class men. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for creating some first-class men. This is our ideal. Therefore we forbid them not to take meat, not to have illicit sex, not to..., because these things are accepted by the fourth-class, fifth-class men: unrestricted sex life, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are not to be indulged by the first-class, second-class men, even third-class. It begins from the fourth-class men. Fourth-class, fifth-class. So if one remains to the category of the fourth-class, fifth-class man, how he can be trained up as first-class man? Therefore these things are prohibited because our aim is to create some first-class men.
Bhagavān: We can keep horses? We can use horses?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, that is kṣatriya. If one does not obey the social structure, he must be forced. That is the idea of slaves. The śūdras who do not work properly, he must be forced. Nobody should remain unemployed. The śūdras are inclined. If he has got something to eat, he will not work. You see? Then again he will work when his need, eating. This is śūdra mentality.
Bhagavān: So they have to be kept employed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have to be... They should not possess, so that they will work always.
Yogeśvara: Yeah, but that was exactly the situation that sparked the Communist revolution. When the workers felt themselves exploited, then they revolted.
Prabhupāda: No, workers, what is that? Exploited?
Yogeśvara: Yes, when the śūdras were seeing that, "Oh, these men, they are keeping us as slaves, and they are making us work just for our food," then they revolted.
Prabhupāda: No, no. You should keep them such nicely and friendly way, they will never think like that. They will think that you are giving him food and shelter, and you are taking care, giving them protection to their family. Then they will be happy. Then they are happy. When you give them all protection, then they will be happy. Now... Just like in Japan. The industrialists give all men. They give food. They give education. They give shelter. So they work very happily.
Prabhupāda: So where is equal rights? Even in Russia, there is managerial class and laborer class. Where are equal rights? Why there are managers? Yes. I have seen it. The managerial class and the laborer class. So where is equality? Why the managerial class? You know that? There must be required. The old women, they are sweeping the street. Why not Mr. Lenin come and sweep the street? Why he is sitting in a big palace and the poor woman has been engaged to sweep the street? Where is equality? What advancement they have made? We are following opiate. They are following opiate, Lenin's rascal's philosophy. That's all. That is also opiate. But where is equality? That is also opiate. You are advocating equality, but where there is a man manager and another man is working. So why you are accepting this nonsense philosophy being opiated by rascal Lenin?
Haihaya: They measure everything by the type of work.
Haihaya: The same possibilities of education to everyone.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Where is equal right? That is also with the capitalists also. The same thing, we divide. We divide that "This is brāhmaṇa, this is kṣatriya, this is vaiśya, this is śūdra." We also divide, and you also divide. Then where is the advancement in philosophy?
Haihaya: Because they think that capitalists, they don't give the same possibilities to earn...
Prabhupāda: They think, but we see practically: Why there is difference between this manager and the laborer class? Will the dictator, the manager will take the same salary as the sweeper is taking? Why there is difference? Why the manager is given more preference for living condition? Where is equality? First of all show me. Simply talking will not do.
Dhanañjaya: Actually, the only difference is that in the communist countries, religion is not allowed.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But their philosophy that everyone is equal... Where is equality? There is no equality. Why you are talking nonsense? And in Moscow I have seen. So many people are walking, and others are going on motorcar. Why? why this difference? Why not everyone motorcar? Then what improvement you have made? You are simply talking. Why this difference? Nobody wants to walk. Why thousands of people walking on the street, and some of them are going on motorcar? Why? Where is the equality?
Haihaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they said that equality came by... No, it's not equal, but they must give the same possibilities to everyone.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So that everyone is giving. We also give. "Never mind you are śūdra. You become brāhmaṇa. Come on. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious." That we also are giving. We don't deny, "Oh, you are śūdra, you cannot become a brāhmaṇa." We don't say that. He can also become brāhmaṇa. "Come on. You learn how to become brāhmaṇa." That's all. That... The point is this equality, there cannot be. First point is this. This is nonsense. But everyone should be given the chance to occupy the best position. That is in our philosophy also. But unequality there must remain. You cannot make equality. It is not possible. That is nonsense. In your country there is no equality. Why an old man—I have seen it—she is sweeping the street? So old woman, she should have taken rest, but she is engaged for sweeping the street. And a young man, he is becoming dictator. Where is the equality? She should have given rest, but she is obliged to work. And another young man, he is a manager. Why? Why this inequality? Where is equality? First of all settle up how you can make equal. That you cannot do. Then you are talking nonsense, "equality." It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: My original point was that if we take simply care of the fourth-class division of the society, do not take care of the first-class division of the society, then, in spite of taking care of the fourth-class society, it will not grow very nicely. Because the brain is not in order.
C. Hennis: Yes. I think that in fact my organization is really intimately concerned...
Prabhupāda: That was my point, that you are taking of the laborer class. That is just like the legs.
C. Hennis: Well "labor," in fact means any kind of work, any kind of activity, any kind of occupational activity.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot say the... Any kind of activities, but everyone has got particular type of activity.
C. Hennis: Quite so.
Prabhupāda: You cannot say, "I can do any kind of work." I can give you advice about spiritual life, but if you require medical advice, then you have to go to somebody else. You cannot expect medical advice from me. So this is not a fact, that everyone can do everything. No.
C. Hennis: No, no, I agree. I agree.
Prabhupāda: There must be division. There must be division, and each division must be maintained very nicely. Then the whole society is all right.
Prabhupāda: I may say in this connection, in America, the laborer class is very highly paid. Anyone, any labor class man can earn $25, $50, daily, very easily. But because there is no direction of the brain, these labor class of men—I have seen—they—especially these Negroes—51%, they are drunkards. They spend their money in drinking. They do not know how to utilize the money. Because the brain is not giving direction. Or they have no brain. "I have got so money. How I shall utilize it?" As soon as he gets money, he use it, he uses it for drinking. You may think that you are sufficiently paying to the labor class, worker class, but because he is not guided by brain, he is misspending the money.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it that the śūdra class of men should be trained that they are serving either God or a God conscious leader, or should they be educated to feel that their work is for God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, provided you are for God. They will see and learn. If you simply teach them, you do not do anything, then how they will learn? Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. When they actually see that "These men are dedicated to God," then they'll do whatever you wish.
Yogeśvara: They are making better organizations, but they are not giving any example to the people.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is concocting some ideas, and they are going on as different organization. That's all. No standard idea. The standard idea is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that cows should be given protection, go-rakṣya. Who is following this? Everyone is making plan how to kill cows in a more scientific way. This is going on. Who is taking the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā? Nobody is taking. Even in India where Bhagavad-gītā is originally, these rascals also not taking. And they have become so brainless. Therefore the whole human society is a dead society. And the dead society's dressing, decorating, is useless waste of time. That's all.
Nitāi:
- śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ
- kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca
- jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ
- brahma-karma svabhāva-jam
- (BG 18.42)
"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."
Prabhupāda: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra, natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section, like the belly, another section, like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Prabhupāda: Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras. They are called pañcamas. These are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas, or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas, the fifth class men are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable. So they are also many: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). There is... Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya.
Nitāi:
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
- (BG 9.32)
"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas (merchants), as well as śūdras (workers)—can approach the supreme destination."
Prabhupāda: So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there is no such distinction because we are interested with the soul. The soul is the same everywhere and these designations are different. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is above designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). One is freed from all designation. Actually, on the spiritual level, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, anyone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above all these divisions.
Yogeśvara: He says this seems to be somewhat different from the traditional Hindu practice, since in the Manu-saṁhitā, for example, śūdras are not to be instructed.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but we do not keep him śūdra. A devotee is no longer śūdra. We are creating brāhmaṇas. Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu-saṁhitā, they are mlecchas, yavanas. But we are not keeping them mlecchas and yavanas. Just like these European and American boys. They are accepting the Vedic regulatives principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more śūdras or caṇḍālas. They are brāhmaṇas.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: So it is said, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brāhmaṇa, Vaiṣṇava, and he works like a brāhmaṇa, he is no longer śūdra or caṇḍāla or yavana. He is brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava.
Yogeśvara: ...who wrote a book called "Brave New Worlds", and in that book, he predicted something that's coming true now, that there would be a process of biologically screening babies so that men could be breeded like animals, like they breed animals. So they would take one strain of chromosomes and breed a class of men who would make perfect administrators, and then they would breed another class of men that would be perfect śūdras, and they would breed another class of men who would be perfect scientists.
Prabhupāda: And that is already there. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The, the, in Vedic astrology, jāta-karma, they will say that "This child is a śūdra, this child is a brāhmaṇa, this child is a kṣatriya." By the birth, by the constellation of the stars, it will be done. It is already being done. And in the medical laboratory, the blood has been tested, brāhmaṇa, śūdra, vaiśya, there is different blood. Yes. The blood infusion. So if the, a different blood is infused, it does not act. So one doctor, in India, he was permanently keeping different bloods for different persons. So there is some meaning in the caste system. But that is not... In a brāhmaṇa family, a śūdra may also take birth. Śūdra blood. So to keep the blood brahminical, therefore the reformatory system is there, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra and all the saṁskāras. Before birth, they keep, to keep the blood brahminical, there is ceremony.
Bhagavān: Or like the politicians, they are afraid to speak because they are afraid that they will be voted out or get no more money to support their...
Prabhupāda: Yes. They're after money. So they are less than śūdras. That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise... It is straight commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." And because people are killing, they're... Now they are give man-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception... At least, outside America, nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they're supporting it. You know that?
Bhagavān: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So what is their standard?
Yogeśvara: Did he say anything before he left?
Jyotirmayī: Yeah, he said that he was in the, he was promulgating a law. So I asked him if he was going to help promulgate a law against cow-killing. So he said...
Prabhupāda: Now, this is our proposal, that why you should kill cow? Cow may be protected to take milk, and use this milk for so many nice preparations. Then, so far meat-eating is concerned, so every cow will die. It is a fact. So you wait a few days only. There will be so many dead cows. So you take all the dead cows and eat. So where is the bad proposal? If you say that "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it."
Prabhupāda: Next class, the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44).
Nitāi:
- kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ
- vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam
- paricaryātmakaṁ karma
- śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam
- (BG 18.44)
"Farming, cattle-raising and business are the qualities of the work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras, there is labor and service to others."
Prabhupāda: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all śūdras, fourth-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth-class. Democracy means selected, I mean to..., voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore, there are so many anomalies.
Prabhupāda: But we are giving you the process of cleansing. Why you are persisting to remain unclean? We are giving you the medicine. We are all unclean. Now we are attempting and we are becoming clean. Why don't you come and be cleansed? (break) ...Navadvīpa. From the day you arrive there, you'll be cleansed. I have got such a nice place. Come there, and stay, according to our rules and regulations. He'll be cleansed. One may be diseased but there are so many clinics, so many physicians, cleaning. Why should you insist to remain unclean? (break) That is accepted. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ (?). By birth, everyone is a śūdra. Śūdra means unclean. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. But he takes to the reformatory methods, he becomes cleansed, dvija, twice-born, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya.
Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...samudvigna, always full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Intelligence is always absorbed: "Enemy may not come. Let me discover this, discover this atom bomb. This will save me. This will save me." This is their position. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Why this anxiety? Because they have accepted something false as truth. Asad-grahāt. They have accepted sense gratification is the truth. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. Indriyāṇi means senses. Parā, supreme. This is supreme. And then, if somebody is little advanced, indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. Then the mental speculators, psychologists, philosophers, another, better class of rascals... This is the third-class rascal, and they are second-class rascal. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ, manasas tu parā buddhiḥ (BG 3.42). Then the intelligent class. They consider, "What is this nonsense? They are all suffering here." In this way, one who becomes actually intelligent, wise, then he understands, "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So that highest position we are giving by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not training them to be first-class fools, second-class fools, third-class... No. First-class intelligent. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura. Without being first-class, intelligent man, nobody can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness (break) ...drink everything. And why they fight? What is the cause? Suppose father gives all necessities of life to the children. Why they should fight? Simply ignorance and foolishness. That's all. Where is the cause of fighting? Just like Pāṇḍavas, to settle up their misunderstanding, Kṛṣṇa said, "All right, they are kṣatriyas, They cannot take up the occupation of vaiśya or śūdra.
Professor Durckheim: But as an experience, the pure consciousness as an experience, has to have a background which is not pure consciousness. Otherwise it could become...
Prabhupāda: No. Pure consciousness is actually you are. Just like water. Water is pure. When it is comes from the sky, it is clear crystal water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes muddy. Similarly, we soul, spirit soul, we are pure. As soon as we come in contact with this matter, material existence, we become impure. And there are three stages of impurity: goodness, passion and ignorance. So all of them are impure. Unless one comes to the spiritual consciousness—he may be a very nice man—he is infected with the impurity of goodness. He is thinking, "I am very big man, I am very..." That is also impurity. And another man does not know what he is, just like animal, all the animals. That is also impurity. When both of them will come to the clear consciousness that "I am part and parcel of God; my duty is to serve God," that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long he identifies with this material consciousness, he is impure. Just like people are fighting: "I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am this," "I am that," "I am black," "I am white," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am śūdra"—so many, designations. These designations are impurity. Just like sometimes the artists, they manufacture some statue naked. In France I saw, naked. They take it this naked statue is pure art, not dressed. Similarly, when you come to the nakedness of spirit soul without this designation of this body, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," that is purity.
Prabhupāda: Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive.
Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, rightly. And I might also inquire... I take it that you feel... Forgive me if I'm not using the right expression, but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system.
Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brāhmaṇa, the śūdras and so on, per se.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to... Find out the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay?
Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta.
Reverend Powell: Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago, I knew...
Prabhupāda: You have been in Calcutta?
Reverend Powell: Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this...
Prabhupāda: Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they passed through Calcutta or Bombay, like that.
Prabhupāda: Now, the talents are described. Find that Eighteenth Chapter, śamo damas titikṣā. Then...
Reverend Powell: What I'd like (break) I'd like to hear this, but...
Prabhupāda: Talents are divided into three categories: the brāhmaṇa category, and the kṣatriya category, the vaiśya category and the śūdra category. They are described here.
Reverend Powell: And this...
Prabhupāda: What are the qualifications of a brāhmaṇa. Symptoms.
Cāru:
- kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ
- vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam
- paricaryātmakaṁ karma
- śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam
- (BG 18.44)
"Translation: Farming, cattle-raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others..."
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa... We are following the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (5): Do the same rules apply to women as to men?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that in the society women, working class, and the mercantile class, they are, according to Vedic scripture, they are less intelligent, women, working class and mercantile men. Just like mercant..., they are after money, that's all. And śūdra, they want, after job. And women means they are after fulfilling their material desires. They have no other idea, that there is Brahmān, one should know Brahmān... They do not care to know. Therefore they are called śūdras, stri, śūdra, vaiśya. Yes. Vaiśya. So Kṛṣṇa says,
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
- (BG 9.32)
So it is not blocked for anyone. Anyone can get Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Anyone can go back to home, back to Godhead, provided you follow the regulative principle. Then it is possible for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's woman, whether he's working class, whether he's a śūdra or a brāhmaṇa. It doesn't matter. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "Even they can go. And what to speak of the brāhmaṇas?" Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayaḥ... (BG 9.33). If the brāhmaṇas, they cultivate spiritual knowledge, it becomes very easy for them. Even they can go, śūdras, stri, vaiśya. These are all the statement.
Guest (2) (American gentleman): Who is a śūdra? Is it determined by jāti?
Prabhupāda: Yes, one who is seeking service like dog. The dog goes door to door and moves his tail: "Give me some food. Give me some..."
Guest (2): Is it determined by jāti, by birth?
Prabhupāda: No. His quality... He has no quality.
Guest (2): Spiritual type.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not spiritual type, it..., material type. He cannot maintain himself independently. Nowadays people are being educated highly, but if there is no service he has no value.
Guest (2): So the tamasi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no value. I have seen one doctor of chemistry—he could not get any service—in Allahabad. His name was Raghunātha Mitri(?), Dr. Raghunātha Mitri. So he was living at the cost of his father-in-law and making some soap and going to the shop for selling, doctor. That means he could not get any service. Now his independence was to manufacture some soap as ordinary man is doing. But he was chemist; he could not do anything. He could manufacture some soap. So in spite of high education, because he could not get a good job, he had no value. Just like the dogs. The dogs, if they do not get a master, nice, then street dog.
Guest (1): ...at the present time in this country to 10% of the people. They don't have jobs. They are let out. They can't...
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, every country, every country. Now, just like you are highly educated. Your country could not give you service. You are coming here. And that is śūdra. One who cannot live independently, he is śūdra. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age, everyone is practically śūdra, because nobody can live independently. So we are producing mass śūdras. Therefore it is in chaotic condition. The Communist is the last word of the śūdras. The Communist philosophy is that "We are worker. We have all the power. We must have all the power." And that they are doing. And because they do not want to obey any authority, therefore they are denying existence of God. This is the tendency of the modern society. Not only they do not know what is God, and they are trying to disobey the orders of God. So practically there is no religion. And without religion human society is animal society. Dharmeṇa hīnā pasubhiḥ samānāḥ. "Human being without any ideas of religion, God, he is no better than animal." That is the difference between animal and human being. Animal eats, we eat; animal sleeps, we sleep; animal have sexual intercourse, we have; animal also defends, we also defend. These are common features.
Bernard Manischewitz: This is on experience, on the experience that they have.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is experience. You will find many healthy persons in India subsisting only on these foodstuffs, and they have good brain also. India is still, I think, eighty percent people are strictly vegetarian. Not to speak of the higher class, but the lower class also. The higher class, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Vaiśya is via media, between higher and lower. And the śūdras and less that the śūdras, caṇḍālas, they are lower class. So meat-eating is current among these lower class of men, śūdras and caṇḍālas. The caṇḍālas, they have no discrimination, they eat everything, and śūdras, they eat meat, but under restriction. Some of them do not; some of them do, but under restriction, and that is restricted with the goat animal. Less than the śūdras-caṇḍālas, pañcama, fifth grade—they eat everything. Especially they eat—because cow protection in India is very strict—so these caṇḍālas, fifth grade men, they eat generally pigs. Pigs they eat. Outside the village, they have their residential quarters, and they fry live pigs. And they make... Not daily; sometimes. But they eat pigs, and amongst them, there is a class—they are cobblers—they eat this cows' flesh when the animal is dead, not living and we'll kill.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So cow is very important animal. So from religious point of view, or from economic point of view, cows are not allowed, in the Vedic civilization, to be killed. The meat-eaters, they are everywhere, all over the world, but in India meat-eating is allowed—the fifth class, fifth grade community, they eat these cows when it is dead. And the śūdra class, they also eat meat restrictively, goats. That is only under certain restriction, means sacrifice. The goat is sacrificed in the Goddess Kali's temple, and they eat. This is very dangerous, this sacrifice. It is very dangerous. It creates all sinful men. In the Christian religion also, it is said, "Thou shall not kill," and they are killing. So what kind of Christians they are?
Bernard Manischewitz: Do they kill them in a slaughterhouse?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bernard Manischewitz: Do they kill them in a slaughterhouse? The goats?
Prabhupāda: No.
Reporter: Will they be virtually living outside...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Outside also you can live. Simply you must know how to live. At the present moment you do not know how to live. That's all. And there is no education how to live. All of us being sent to the slaughterhouse, that's all. They do not know how to live. In the Vedic civilization you will find the first proposition is how to live. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). How to live... First the human society is divided into four: the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya, or the śūdra. The first-class intelligent man, they are educated as brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Just like we are training engineer, similarly, a class of men, those who are very intelligent, they should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. They should be trained up how to speak truth any circumstance. Even to the enemy he will speak truth. This requires training, not that foolishly, a cats' and dogs' life. What is the value of this life? The modern civilization, they do not know how to live. They are simply interested in eating, and that's also any nonsense eating. But according to Vedic civilization, "This eating is first class. This eating is second class. This eating is third class. This eating is fourth class." So many things required to correct the mistaken way of civilization. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: India what do you mean by? Not the modern India. India was the whole world.
Devotee (1): So all the different kinds of human beings actually were originated there?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...men, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. First, second, third. Then fourth is the śūdras. And the fifth, caṇḍālas: no Vedic culture. They are caṇḍālas. So the Europeans, they were kṣatriyas originally. On account of Paraśurāma's massacre process, they fled from India to European side. And Greece and Rome, they were given—I think, Turkey also—given to two sons of Mahārāja Yayāti. They refused the order of the father. The father was very licentious. So he begged from two sons that "You give me your youth." They refused. So therefore they were banished in this part of the world.
Prabhupāda: They were not properly doing their duties. So Paraśurāma said, "I will kill all of them." Formerly kṣatriyas were guided by the brāhmaṇas, even Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all the rules and regulations. But the brāhmaṇas were the legislative assembly. And kṣatriyas were the executive, and the vaiśyas, productive, and śūdras worker. At the present moment there is no director, neither executive. Some of them are only productive, and some of them are worker, most of them. Therefore it is said, kalau śūdraḥ-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga, mostly all the people are śūdras. Because they are workers. (break) Everyone can be purified, even the caṇḍālas. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). Yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. Yavanas means these European groups, and khasādayaḥ, Mongolian group: China, Japan. So Japanese were there in Vedic age also. Kālayavana. Kālayavana fought with Kṛṣṇa.
Brahmānanda: It is difficult to come to that understanding, that actually, those who are the leaders are not to be trusted.
Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation. Taxation by the government, and there will be no rain, there will be famine, no food, and they will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their family and go away, gacchanti giri-kananam, will go, enter into the hills and forest, giving up their hearth and home. This is Kali-yuga. And this is due to their godlessness. On account of this, then the democracy, means anyone, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, anyone who becomes powerful, he will capture the government post. So the śūdras, they are now powerful. Śūdras. Industry means śūdra. So they will capture the governmental power. Just like Communist.
Prabhupāda: (Speaks in Bengali) Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered,
- bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
This is para-upakāra. So what is this nonsense para-upakāra, creating an atom bomb? Is that para-upakāra? Of course, it has got its utilization, but it is not for para-upakāra. (Bengali) Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (Bengali) Śūdra is the cātur division, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now in India mostly they are śūdras, 99.9. They are not interested that satya śamo damas titikṣa arjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). (Bengali) They are captivated by the śūdras. This, during the British period the śūdra activities, developing the country by railway, by factory, by bridge—these people are innocent. They thought that "Oh, here is the actual civilization. The Britishers have brought." They lost their own civilization.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Suppose everyone becomes head. Then where is this supply of hands and legs? We do not say that everyone become brain. The brain is ordering, and who will carry the order? The order-carrier must be there, but they must carry order of the brāhmaṇa. Then it will be all right. The brain must be there, and the legs must be there. The legs must move by the dictation of the brain. Then it is perfect. It is not expected also that everyone will become brāhmaṇa. Therefore guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone has got his particular qualities. So we have to utilize—what quality does he belong? But at the present moment the difficulty is that they do not care that in the society there must be a class of brain, brāhmaṇa. That they do not know. They want everyone should become a śūdra, the Communists life, worker, "Work." And therefore they have not been successful. The whole nation is worker, and who will give the brain?
Guest: The whole nation is worker?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Communist country, they want simply worker. But still, they have to create manager. Why manager created? Let everyone become worker. Now, Communist country also, although they say worker, but why they are creating manager?
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are in need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra. So this is very scientific. How it not be scientific? It is spoken by God. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Required. Just like in this institution, I am guru, and if everyone becomes guru, then who will carry out the order of guru? There must be disciple also, who will carry out the order of guru. So it is not required... Just like in your body, it is not that body is made of head only, but head is required. You cannot avoid head, neither you can avoid the leg. So śūdra required, the brāhmaṇa required, the kṣatriya required, and the vaiśya required. And the society should be very nicely managed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ. Why does He not say one varṇa, brāhmaṇa? Naturally there must be division because all men are not of the same quality. You cannot expect. So whatever quality he has got, utilize that. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. The one man is lame, and one man is blind. So both are useless. So they combine together. The lame man was taken on the shoulder of the blind man. So the lame man has no leg, but he has got eyes. He was directing, "Go this way." So both their business was perfect. Similarly, according to the quality of the work, there must be a class of men less intelligent. They cannot independently work. They must require a master. That is śūdra. And then the vaiśya, then the kṣatriya, and the upper man is brāhmaṇa. He gives the direction to the kṣatriya. He is ruler.
Prabhupāda: Yes, (Bengali) ...really classless society. They should not be proud that "I am brāhmaṇa." No. As you are required, as much, the śūdra is also required. It is not that only the brāhmaṇas are required. This is a very scientific movement. (Bengali) It is not a bogus sentimental thing. It is a very scientific movement. It is not so-called yogi and swami and everything equal. And where is equality?
Guest: The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is a scientific movement?
Prabhupāda: Most scientific.
- satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ
- yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ
- namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā
- nitya-yuktā upāsate
- (BG 9.14)
Guest: (Bengali) to realize the Supreme.
Prabhupāda: Realize the Supreme, that is the first and foremost aim, but at the same time, to keep the whole human society in perfect happiness, according to the direction of God. Just like I told you that Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you want to keep the living entities, both men and animal, you must arrange for their nice fooding. Who can deny this philosophy? But they are saying that poverty should be removed, and we must acquire food for the suffering and starving. But what they are doing? They are manufacturing motor tire, the rascals.
Nalinī-kānta: But it is all managed nicely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, śūdras. When a śūdra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, now the war is between people to people, nation to nation. They support with men and money. So therefore they are also killed by nature's law. (break)
Rāmeṣvara: Prabhupāda, in the Ādi-līlā, you wrote that the Communist movement is greater than the capitalist movement because there are more śūdras than vaiśyas so that in a war between Communism and capitalism, the Communists would win.
Prabhupāda: Naturally. They are in greater number.
Rāmeṣvara: But these modern wars are fought with missiles and bombs more than armies.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, also, there were brahmāstra, fire, firearms, brahmāstra. (break) ...problems that we are facing, they were also in the past under different name, different form.
Prabhupāda: ...not within the Vedic culture. Vedic culture means this varṇāśrama-dharma: four varṇas, four āśrama. And those who are lower than the śūdras, they are not in the Vedic culture. They are called caṇḍālas. Among these caṇḍālas, the mleccha, yavana, are also there. There are. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So they are also caṇḍālas, fifth status. Fourth status, up to śūdra, and then all fifth status. So amongst the fifth status, there are all meat-eaters, without any restriction. And there are dog-eaters. So amongst them, the fifth status, one who eats dog, he is considered most abominable.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would a Vedic king try to prohibit such persons from eating...
Prabhupāda: No.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...animals of any kind? Would a Vedic king try to prohibit the fifth-class men from eating the animals?
Prabhupāda: No. Animals, you can eat if you like. But there was no slaughterhouse. If you like, you can kill your own animal and eat. That was open. But the state did not maintain any slaughterhouse. And the third-class, fourth-class men, they would eat. So simply by saying that "You don't eat," they will not accept that. They're free, but the state would not maintain the slaughterhouse. At the present moment also, if the slaughterhouse are closed, then immediately seventy-five-percent meat-eating will be stopped. They maintain slaughterhouse. That is the most sinful activity.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never says that, that "You send your children to the universities and make them fools and rascals." So one who is depending on job, he's a śūdra. That is not education. Education is not meant for the śūdra but for the dvijas, twice-born, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, and vaiśya. Śūdras are never for education. So their education, so-called education, means creating so many śūdras. Unless he gets a job his education is useless. Therefore he's a śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—they will create their own means of livelihood. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Therefore they are unhappy. They don't get job, neither they are able to work independently.
Nalinī-kānta: Punishment is not the best means of reformation. Sometimes if someone is sent to jail by the government, he'll simply be thinking, "Oh, when I can get out and depose these rascals?" So if someone is punished by God, he might become more angry towards God.
Prabhupāda: Did it...? (break) ...special. There is a proverb, kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman kalki chele busi... (?) A brāhmaṇa, black... Brāhmaṇa's another name is śukla, white. So as soon as a brāhmaṇa is black then he's (indistinct) kalo brāhmaṇa. Kota śūdra, and śūdra, just like African, if they become white there is something mystery. Kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman, Mohammedan, because Mohammedan means the Afghans, they are very tall, so a Mussulman is dwarf, a brāhmaṇa is black, the śūdra is white, kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman and kalki chelo, that means the bastard and (indistinct) ...these are all of the same class. Adopted son, he gets money, without any labor, he spends like anything. In your country there is adopted son?
Devotee: Yeah, yeah.
Prabhupāda: Sil. Sil means cultured. A cultured man is called sil. Sushil. Sushil means very culture, very... Sushil. So kalo brahm... This is unnatural. Kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman, kanki chele... (indistinct) Now generally people, we saw, in our childhood, Europeans were very tall and now they are not coming (indistinct). Naturally when they'll not get sufficient nourishment, they'll be stunted. And Kali-yuga means decrease of nourishment, necessities of life decreasing. We see in such a rich man's house, there is no milk. Milk is one of the important nourishment foods. And there is no milk. So gradually there'll be no milk, no rice, no wheat, no sugar. These are stated. Where you'll get nourishment? And the mango, there'll be no pulp, only the seed. These are predicted. After all, you have to live by nature's gift, but these things will be finished. And Russia there is, already there is no rice. There is no fruit. There is no vegetable. Simply we eat meat.
Governor: But also not come in the way of a Muslim.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. Secular means government's duty is that "You call yourself a Hindu. Whether you are acting as Hindu? You call yourself as Muslim. Whether you are acting as Muslim?" This is government's duty. Government does not say or prefer that "You are Christian. It is not good. You become Hindu." No, that is not government's... You remain your Christian, but government's duty is that whether he is acting as Christian. This is government's duty. Not that you are acting like a something else, and you are calling yourself Christian. You are acting like a śūdra, and you are advertising yourself as a brāhmaṇa. So just like a, what is called, quack. If he writes, "Dr. something," that is punishable. But you are quack. That's all right. You can take a certificate that you have got some experience. The registered medical practitioner, I think that is... But what is this, that you are proclaiming yourself as a... (chuckles) So character means a class of men there must be, maybe very few, but they are actually men of character. Just like I am teaching them no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. This is basic principle. Otherwise, where is his character? You are doing all nonsense, and still, you are proclaiming yourself as brāhmaṇa. This should be stopped. And a training college should be there how to make a real brāhmaṇa.
Brahmānanda: "Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti, we must adopt the whole varṇa and āśramas as they are recommended in all the śāstras. If you give up these directions of the śāstras, that is neither dharma nor saṁsṛti, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the Bhagavad-gītā that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsī must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of bhāratīya sanskṛiti."
Prabhupāda: If you give up this varṇāśrama-dharma, then where is your bhāratīya sanskṛiti? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is bhāratīya sanskṛiti?
Brahmānanda: "Six: Injunctions of śāstras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. So the mutual relationship of dharma and politics in the light of our history and tradition can only be revived when we observe the system of varṇāśrama. It is actually like this: the brāhmaṇa is like the head, and the kṣatriya is like the arms, the vaiśya is the stomach or the abdomen, and the śūdra is like the legs. Similarly, spiritually, the brahmacārī is the trained-up disciple, the gṛhastha is the trained-up householder, the vānaprastha is experienced as a retired gentleman, and the sannyāsī is completely in the renounced order of life for spiritual advancement. There is no question of the head being in an exalted position without the cooperation of the leg. When there is a pin-prick in some part of the leg, the head immediately takes it very seriously and takes out the thorn in some part of the leg. Similarly, whenever there is some outside attack, the arms or the hands spread to protect the whole body. In the same way, within the abdomen there is the machinery of digesting foodstuffs, and after digestion the secretion turns into blood and it is infused throughout the whole anatomical structure of the body. Similarly, the cooperation between the head, arms, stomach and legs is the perfect situation of the human society."
Governor: Coordination.
Prabhupāda: Coordination. As head is also trying to maintain the body nicely, this arm is also. Now this has been nationally centralized. So that is the idea. Not that "Because I am head, brāhmaṇa, oh, here is a śūdra. Oh, don't see his face." Why? Śūdra is also required. Leg is also required. Head is also required.
Governor: It is an harmonious coordination.
Prabhupāda: Yes, harmonious coordination. But the śūdras were hated like anything, and they became Mohammedans. And there was no reacceptance. Formerly, from Caitanya literature we understand, that if the Musselman will take little water from the badna (?) and sprinkle like this, then you become Mohammedan. In this way all these Indians, they became Mohammedan. And the result is now the Pakistan, and you go on fighting forever. Why these innocent persons who were by sprinkling water became Mohammedan, why they do not claim? Kṛṣṇa and the śāstra, it does not say that if one has fallen, you cannot reclaim him. No, why not reclaim him? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa... (BG 9.32). This is by birth. And of course, in our country everything was taken by birth. Now it is going on. But even by birth one is low-grade...
Governor: No, birth also was built up by a tradition. They were brought up in that atmosphere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter. But if he wants to be elevated, he should be given chance. That is the verdict of all śāstras. Now we are feeling, India, this difficulty. Because they are Europeans, Americans, the so-called big societies, they are not agreeable to accept them. You see? Although śāstra does not say so. Śāstra says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. "If one takes shelter of Me, even he is born in pāpa-yoni"... Striyaḥ vaiśyās tathā..., te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim, "they can also be elevated to the highest exalted position." And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is, many places it is said that a low-born person can be elevated. Caṇḍalo 'pi dvija śreṣṭho hari-bhakti-parāyaṇaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah, Vālmīki. There were many. There were, are many. Nārada. Nārada was a son of a maidservant, śūdra. He had no father. So dāsī-putra. And he became Nārada. So where is the restriction? Similarly, in the Jabalopaniṣad, Satyakāma Jabala, he was also a prostitute's son. And he approached Gautama Muni, "You kindly make me your disciple." Gautama Muni said, "What you are?" "I am my mother's son, that's all." "Then who is your father?" "That I do not know." "Ask your mother." So mother replied, "My dear son, I do not know who is your father." And he came and said to Gautama Muni, "Sir, my mother also does not know who is my father." Then Gautama Muni said, "Yes, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on. I shall..." Because speaking truth. So unless you are a son of a brāhmaṇa, you cannot speak such secret truth. Nobody will say that "I do not know who is my father." It is social scandal even up to date. But he plainly said that "My mother does not know who is my father." So immediately Gautama Muni accepted him as brāhmaṇa: "You are telling the truth." Satya śamaḥ damaḥ. Because it is first qualification.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Varnāśrama college, that training factual brāhmaṇa. And the government should be, as I explained to you, that if one is proclaiming himself as a brāhmaṇa, he must act as a brāhmaṇa. If one is proclaiming as a kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Otherwise, there will be no restriction, and a śūdra will claim to be brāhmaṇa. That will create a disturbing situation. In Pṛthu Mahārāja's time it was strictly prohibited that... That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ. So if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa he must be brāhmaṇa. That is another way of reforming the society. And nowadays everyone is a śūdra, and somebody is claiming, "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am this," "I am that." Formerly the brāhmaṇas (were) strictly following. They would not accept... In the śāstras it is said that the brāhmaṇa in bad time may become a kṣatriya. Just like Dronācārya. He was brāhmaṇa, but he became a kṣatriya for certain reason, and acting like kṣatriya, although he was respected as brāhmaṇa, but he was acting as a kṣatriya. So it is advised that brāhmaṇa may take the profession of a kṣatriya and up to the vaiśya. But if he takes the profession of a śūdra, then he is fallen. Then he is fallen. So this cultural institution should now be introduced. And the other countries, they are still respectful to the Indian culture. That's a fact. I have studied. So if we keep ourself in our, what he has mentioned, samsriti?
Paramahaṁsa: That's not as easy.
Prabhupāda: No, it is very easy. It is simply, as we are teaching our students, just become a devotee, offer namaskār, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, always think of Him, and you will go to Him. It is not at all difficult. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Bahavo, many, did come to Me. How? Jñāna-tapasā, by knowledge and tapasya, being purified, they come to Me. Kṛṣṇa says. Why you are disappointed? You can go. Kṛṣṇa is open. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Striya śūdra tathā vaiśya, even the women, less intelligent, the śūdra, vaiśya, they can come. Where is the difficulty? Even if you are born very lowest, you can go. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. Simply you become qualified. That's all. And what is the qualification? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), just always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your respects to Me, and man-manā, worship Me. Four things. That... We are opening this temple (in Melbourne) for this purpose, that you always think of Him, you worship Him, you offer obeisances to Him, and become His devotee. And then? Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68), without a doubt you will come to Him. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Even in your body there is class. The head class, the arm class, the belly class, the leg class. They are working differently for benefit of the whole body. That is natural. If you avoid and if you simply keep the leg, then it will be chaotic condition. Or even if you keep the head only, that will not stand. There must be four. That is natural. That is the Vedic mantra it is said—you are reading the other day—the brāhmaṇas, they came out of the mouth. The kṣatriyas, they came out of the arms. The vaiśyas, they came out of the belt. And the śūdras, they came out of the legs. This is mantra. How you can avoid it? Kṛṣṇa says, "It is My creation. How you can avoid it?" You cannot avoid anything which is created by Kṛṣṇa. Just like sunshine. It is created by Kṛṣṇa. You cannot say, "No, no. I don't want sunshine." That is foolishness. If you want to avoid, then you'll suffer. The sunshine is there, and if you go into the dark place, and cover yourself, then the sunshine is outside, that's all. The sun may not suffer—you'll suffer. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that "This caste system is created by Me." If you don't accept it, then you'll suffer. Kṛṣṇa will not suffer. (leaves car) ...introducing the caste system, we are introducing a system which, you follow, you'll be happy. Not caste system. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: (laughing lightly) You cannot say that I have introduced it. It is already there. As it is there in India, it is also everywhere. It may be under different names. The four classes are already there, everywhere. The... Even in Muslim, they have also got the (indistinct), what is called, mohallas, priestly class. They have got. We are introducing the systematic caste system, but caste system is already there, everywhere. Maybe under different names. And it is necessary. The caste system is there as a matter of necessity. You cannot abolish it. But it is now existing in a deformed manner. People should be systematic and organized. That we are trying to. Not that a new thing we are trying to introduce. It is already there. Our proposition is that "You priestly class, you must act exactly as a priest-ideal priest. You are a drunkard, you are woman-hunter, you are doing everything nonsense, and at the same time you are passing on as priest—this should be stopped." This should be stopped. The priestly class, or the brāhmaṇas, they should be trained up to become truthful, how to control mind, how to control senses, and tolerant, and very learned, knowing God also—these things are required. They should be the first-class, ideal men. Similarly, the kṣatriyas, they must be fearless; they must be very boldly, face fighting the enemies; they must have the capacity to govern nicely so that people will not have any complaint against the government. In this way they should be trained up. And the mercantile class of man, they should produce enough food grains, not motor tires. That is śūdra's business—artisans—that is śūdra. The vaiśyas' business is first to see that in the country there is enough food for eating—both for the human being and the animals. The human being should not complain that there is no sufficient food grains, therefore they're eating flesh.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Devotee (1): For instance, a man who is in the mode of passion like a kṣatriya, he only finds satisfaction when he's engaged in warfare or administrative work. Similarly so with a vaiśya or a śūdra...
Prabhupāda: Yes. I think it is... Maybe it is described in Seventeenth Chapter. According to our free will, we are associating with certain type of the modes of material nature, and then we become subjected to that material modes. The same example: you infect some disease, contamination, and you gain the result of it. So our endeavor should be how to raise ourself to the first, to the sattva-guṇa. That we can do. And then transcend sattva-guṇa and reach the spiritual platform. Everyone is trying to improve his position, but they do not know what is meant by improvement. Improvement means mostly they are in tamo-guṇa, ignorance. So rise from tamo-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to sattva-guṇa, and then sattva-guṇa to transcendence. That is improvement. So generally, people are suffering on account of association with tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, whole material world, mostly tamo-guṇa and few of them in rajo-guṇa. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa are lust and greediness. Just like yesterday you told me the students are talking about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, that the education-students, they are discussing about homosex.
Śrutakīrti: And no mango for breakfast.
Prabhupāda: No. You said that the man will not like this kind of job. Eh? Therefore there must be division of job. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). He is a śūdra. He does not want to produce his own food. If you give him some salary, then he will be satisfied. And then he will work with plow also. If you give him salary, he will accept that.
Paramahaṁsa: Actually in the West, more or less, that system, the division system, is accepted because we have businessmen, we have labor men, we have politicians, we have teachers and professors.
Prabhupāda: It is changed?
Śrutakīrti: Changed?
Prabhupāda: My wrapper?
Śrutakīrti: Yeah, this is the new wrapper.
Prabhupāda: Motor buses were floating. Is that law of gravity? Air, different adjustment of air. If Kṛṣṇa desires, simply by air this whole city will be devastated. The other day we saw so many trees fell from (New?) Kurukṣetra. All trees and houses will be smashed within half an hour if some hurricane is sent. Poking nose in the affairs of God. They'll simply try to prove that there is no God. This is their attempt. And they say "nature." What is this nature? Nature is an instrument, machine. The authority is God, Kṛṣṇa. So I have given the right name, fourth-class men, not even third class. All fourth class. Śūdra. Śūdra and less than śūdra. This is the whole pack of population at the present moment. First-class man, his definition is there: śama, dama, tapa, śaucam, titikṣā, ārjavam, jñāna, vijñāna, āstikyam. That is first-class. They are snatching a motorcar mechanic as first class. Because he knows some mechanical arrangement how to do it, he is first class. Such things are being done by the demons. Machine or wonderful building, these are done by the demons. Now to begin? Time will come(?)?
Śrutakīrti: You wanted to shave your head? Yeah?
Prabhupāda: Ah, there is time?
Śrutakīrti: Yeah, we are leaving at twelve-thirty. So we have two hours. That is sufficient.
Prabhupāda: Huh? There is no loss, still they will not do it. We don't say that don't live in the... We are living in nice building; you also live in nice building. But see, do, see what we are doing there. Everyone can do it. Everyone can... That is Vedic culture, and everywhere Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa-śilā is worshiped. At least the higher castes, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—not the śūdras. Don't eat meat, don't have intoxication, no illicit sex, have Kṛṣṇa's picture, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, make nice preparation, where is the difficulty? Take this civilization.
Devotee: Many karmīs think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you are born and then you die and that is the finish.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: Many karmīs think that you are born and then you die and then finish.
Prabhupāda: No. That is not the fact. You are born a child, then you get a youthful body, where you are finished? Does it mean that when the childish body is finished, the soul is also finished? Why he remembers, "Oh I was a child like this." This is simple argument. Where you are finished?
Dr. Copeland: Ah, that's why. Ah! Pretty! Are you a brāhmaṇa? By birth you're a brāhmaṇa, right?
Prabhupāda: No. I am brāhmaṇa yes. Yes. But we are not... We do not recognize brāhmaṇa by birth. Brāhmaṇa by these qualities. Anyone who has got... This is the shastric injunction, that if the qualities are found somewhere else—that means one who is not born in a brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the brāhmaṇa—then he should be accepted as a brāhmaṇa. That is shastric injunction. Yasya hi yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi. Anyatra means elsewhere. Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). "He should be accepted as such." Similarly, if a man, born in brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the śūdras... Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Paricarya means service. To accept... (break) So therefore, according to Bhagavad-gītā, nobody is brāhmaṇa. A brāhmaṇa should remain independent. He should live by his qualities. People will honor him. Just like we are training. We do not serve anyone, but we are maintaining big establishment.
Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous law to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be neglected. According to Cāṇakya Paṇḍita... He was great politician. He has said that dampatya kalahe caiva bahvārambhe laghu kriyā. The husband and wife's quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Ajā yuddhe (More quote by Cāṇakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say "Hut!" they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, "Yes, come to the court." This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law. Another defect is that there is no method how to train a man to become first class. That is there in the Vedic civilization. Now of course in India that is also now abolished by degradation.
Otherwise the society was divided into four classes—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas were first-class men, ideal. But in the society there is no ideal men. One should have some example, living example, to see "Oh, here is an ideal man." So the ideal man is described here in our Bhagavad-gītā. What is the ideal? Any man can be trained up. Not cent percent, but even one percent man becomes ideal, the ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But there is no ideal man. That is the defect. So just like we are training them as ideal man, by character, by religion, by behavior, by education. That is the purpose of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And you can see practically what was their previous life and what they are now. So government should establish an institution to create ideal men. We can help. We can help.
Gurukṛpa: It's cheaper. (Prabhupāda chuckles) People, even if they're offered a job, they won't take it because they would like to get the free check.
Prabhupāda: Śūdra. Śūdra. So long he has got money to eat, he will sleep on the beach. He will not work. That is śūdra. And if he has got enough money, then he will spend it for wine and women. That's all. So long he has got money, he will not work. And as soon as he has got money, he will spend it for wine and woman. This is called śūdra.
Bali-mardana: There are over eleven million people in the United States just living on welfare. (break)
Gurukṛpa: ...big calamity such as a big earthquake, like that, then...
Prabhupāda: We shall return now?
Śrutakīrti: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The Vedic civilization, therefore, teaches the student, brahmacārī, how to remain without sex life. Those who are unable to continue that, they are allowed, "All right, be married life." And that is also for twenty-five years. A student remains brahmacārī up to twenty-five years, and if we wants to take this sex license-household life means sex life—so he can get the license for twenty-five years more. So at the age of fifty years, fiftieth year, he gives up voluntarily. He keeps his wife with him just to assist him to advance in spiritual life, and they go from one holy place to another. And then when they are practiced, then the woman is sent to his elderly sons to take care and the man takes sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra... And the sannyāsa is especially meant for the brāhmaṇas, not the kṣatriyas or the vaiśyas because they are not very much advanced. But the brāhmaṇa is advanced from the very beginning. Therefore sannyāsa is for the brāhmaṇa. The system that without being a brāhmaṇa nobody can take sannyāsa. So I am criticized by others in India that I am giving sannyāsa to them. Of course, according to the principle, they are not fit for sannyāsa, but because Caitanya Mahāprabhu also took sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four years... Śaṅkarācārya took sannyāsa at the age of eight years. He lived only for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. So for ordinary man, sannyāsa is difficult. But for preaching work, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's footprints we are trying to follow.
Prabhupāda: Well, dried up, but they must agree to follow. Otherwise, it is dead. (break) ...kārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformation, that makes a twice-born. (break) ...na jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ, vedo-pathad bhaved vipro brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. Everyone is born śūdra, and by undergoing the reformation process, he becomes twice-born. The father is the spiritual master, and the mother is Vedic knowledge. First birth is ordinary father and mother. That even cats and dogs gets. Everyone gets father and mother. Without father and mother, there is no question of birth. That janma is śūdra janma. Then, when he gets second birth by the spiritual father, then he becomes a dvija, twice-born. Again birth. Then he is allowed to study the Vedic literatures. Vedo-pathad bhaved vipraḥ. And when, by studying, he understand the Brahman, then he becomes brāhmaṇa. This is the process. Brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And then, after becoming a brāhmaṇa, when he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes Vaiṣṇava. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Siddha means to understand Brahman, and yatatām api siddhānām, and after becoming siddha, one who drives further ahead, out of many of them, one can understand Kṛṣṇa. So we are aiming to that destination, to understand Kṛṣṇa. And then it will be perfect. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead.
Dharmādhyakṣa: In other words, Śrīla Prabhupāda, without practice of the method, it's very difficult to understand the philosophical concepts.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Therefore it is said that without becoming a brāhmaṇa, nobody should touch Vedas. That is a... Without becoming brāhmaṇa...
- janmana jāyate śūdraḥ
- saṅskarād bhaved dvijaḥ
- veda-pathad bhaved vipro
- brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ
These are the different stages. Everyone is born śūdra. Śūdra means the life of lamentation. He does something and laments. This is śūdra. He does not know how to perform, but by whims he does something and laments later on. This is śūdra. And brāhmaṇa means na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He never laments, neither hankers. That is brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). Find out this verse, brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati.
Prabhupāda: So we can see on equal level when (sic:) you become a brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ, not in the United Nation, passing resolution and fight is going on outside, because they have no vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So the politicians should be guided by the brāhmaṇas. That is social structure. Those who are first-class men in the spiritual understanding... Or the politicians, the administrators, they should take instruction from the brāhmaṇas and take part in politics. Then they will be also first-class men. You haven't got to drag him down again. First of all elect, and drag him down. This is mistake. Just like you elected Nixon president; again you dragged him down, because there was mistake. You do not know who to elect because you are not guided by brāhmaṇas. This is the fault. The whole society is being guided by the mle..., śūdras and some portion vaiśyas. Mostly śūdras and some certain percentage, mercantile. And no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa. Therefore, for the peaceful life in human society, there must be four divisions. Find out this verse, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Jayatīrtha: 4.13.
- cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ
- guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ
- tasya kartāram api māṁ
- viddhy akartāram avyayam
- (BG 4.13)
"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa created these four division, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, but He does not belong to any one of them. He is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya nor śūdra. He is transcendental. Similarly, our philosophy—just to make the human society very peaceful and making progress we wish to establish this system. A first-class man, group of men, brāhmaṇas, they will guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas, the administrators, they will guide the vaiśya. Vaiśya means agriculture and cow protection and trade. And śūdra means those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśyas. They are simply worker, assistant. So there must be division like this. The brāhmaṇas should guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas will administer the state, and the vaiśyas will produce foodstuff, and śūdras will help. Cooperation for common benefit. But the aim is spiritual realization. That is perfect society. If everyone is śūdra, without any aim of life, then there will be chaos. Just like in your country, in spite of so much facility for education, the students are produced hippies, useless for all purposes.
Prabhupāda: That is my question. (break) Just like in India, for higher technological knowledge, they come to foreign countries. So for knowledge, we can take it from anywhere. There should not be sectarianism, "Oh, why shall I take knowledge from here and there?" Wherever knowledge is available, we should take it. That is the real position of seeker of knowledge. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, nīcād apy uttamā vidyā strī-ratnaṁ duṣkulād api. He says, viṣād apy amṛtaṁ grāhyam. Viṣa, viṣa means poison. "In the pot of poison, if there is little nectar in, take it." Viṣād apy amṛtaṁ grāhyam. Poison is not to be touched, but if there is little nectar in, take it. And amedhyād api kāñcanam: "And in a filthy place there is gold. Take it." Not that gold has been polluted because it is in the filthy place. If there is gold in the filthy place, don't hesitate. Take it. And nīcād apy uttamā vidyā. Generally, people used to take education from brāhmaṇa. So Cāṇakya Paṇḍita advises that "If there is education, actual education, even he is a lower class man, śūdra or caṇḍāla, take it. Accept him as master." And nīcād apy uttamā vidyā. Nīcād apy uttamā vidyā strī-ratnaṁ duṣkulād api. And in India, according to Vedic civilization, the marriage is done after seeing the family tradition very scrutinizingly. So here it is advised that duṣkulād api, "In a abominable family, if there is nice girl, educated, beautiful, accept her. Accept her." Nīcād apy uttamā vidyā strī-ratnam. Ratnam means jewel. Wife, she is like jewel although born of a low family, accept. So anything very good, even it is available from a place which is not desirable, one should accept it. So if you are actually seeking after God, so here is God available from Vedic literature. Why don't you take it? Why you should refuse it? That is not very good sign.
Prabhupāda: ...of God means first of all we must know who is God. This is the first. Then, what is this material world and what is my relationship with this material world and God. This is science of God. (break)
Bahulāśva: ...you wanted the colleges named the Vedic Theological College?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hm. Don't come very near. (break) ...that the college teachers and students must be brāhmaṇa, not śūdras. Śūdras will not be able to understand the science of God. What was the... Now, Dr... What is his name?
Bahulāśva: Last night?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: Dr. Mize.
Prabhupāda: Dr. Mize? So what does he say?
Bahulāśva: He said that he could give up the greed, but the lust was a very hard one for him to give up.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupāda: And to serve under somebody, that is śūdra. So at the present moment people are being educated to serve under somebody. Technology, one is very expert in some particular line of technology, say, computer machine... You know how to operate. It is a big qualification. But unless he gets a job under some big establishment, he is useless. He cannot live independently. The first-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men. So fourth-class men, they are prone to be degraded. If you don't raise them to become first-class, they must degrade. So that is the position of the present civilization. They are creating all fourth-class men, and gradually they are degrading. So now you should take up very seriously how you can create some first-class men. First-class, second-class, third-class also. If you simply remain in the fourth grade, technology... Technology means he has to serve under somebody. This industry, that is also the same thing. Hundreds and thousands of men are working. They are fourth-class men. And śūdra. Just like formerly in Indian village... Still there are. They are self-supported. Suppose there is a blacksmith. If you require some black iron instrument, you go there and he will prepare immediately. Say, an oil crusher, extracting oil. So weaver, self-supported. Now these things have been taken in larger scale. That is called industry. But actually these things are meant for the śūdras, fourth-class men.
Prabhupāda: How they can be? They are not trained up. They are not trained up from the very beginning. For being trained up, there is another four divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. These are the training divisions. So for the first-class, second-class, third-class, all the students, they are trained up as brahmacārī, student life. Brahmacārī means celibacy, live under the direction of the teacher and accept all kinds of hardship under the teacher's or spiritual master direction. Children, they can easily take it. If a child, a small child, I ask him, "My dear child, you take my shoes and keep it there," he will immediately agree. He has no sense, "Oh, he is asking me to take his shoes." He will immediately agree. Even he is very rich man's son. So this life is advised that a student live just like a menial servant of the teacher or the spiritual master. And they agree. We have got good instances. And he is coming from the first-class family, brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family or vaiśya family, first, second, third. So even śūdra family, he can learn also. So brahmacārī. Then he is, if he can remain without wife or without opposite sex, then he continues to remain as brahmacārī. He is encouraged. This process encourages to remain brahmacārī, that "Don't take to sex life, it is entailed with so many difficulties. Practice to remain a brahmacārī. You'll save so much trouble." But if he is unable—the teacher sees-Then he is allowed to marry, marriage. If he is trained up brahmacārī, when he marries, he lives with wife under rules and regulation, not like cats and dogs.
Prabhupāda: No, social reform will automatically come. The first-class reform, the brāhmaṇas, if their advice is taken, then the other classes the kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdras, they become automatically.
Mayor: We're aware that a religious approach is more successful and our mental health society here is funding the Reverend Perry who is a black ordained, I think, a Baptist protestant minister, formerly a drug addict. And he's been working out with, especially with the blacks who have drug addiction and he achieves much more success than other agencies.
Prabhupāda: Which process? Drug addiction has been helped by somebody?
Brahmānanda: No, the mayor's saying that the administration is not against supporting religious organizations.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So you can write that spiritually, there is no such distinction. Spiritually, Kṛṣṇa says that "Although there is distinction in the material field, low and high, but one who takes shelter of Me..." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. Find out this verse.
Brahmānanda:
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ
- (BG 9.32)
"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas, merchants, as well as śūdras, workers—can approach the supreme destination. Purport. It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material... (break) ...than great jñānīs and yogis."
Prabhupāda: Let people be engaged. Machine means one man or two man working... That will mean unemployment. Machine means unemployment. The principle should be that everyone is employed. Either brāhmaṇa, either kṣatriya, either vaiśya or śūdra. Nobody should become idle and gossiping, and sleeping, then utilize... This should be principle. Everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then life is successful. And self-sufficient. If we have got spoiling living program, these are necessities. Growing, cultivating, producing, there will be not possibility of, and we don't want more than the necessity. If by God's grace we get more then you can make sale, we are not going to work for selling purpose. Then money will be there. How to get money, how to get money? And as soon as you get money, more than necessity, then sense gratification, then this, that, this, that, then you become implicated. Ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta... ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). As soon as you become implicated with material want, gṛha, kṣetra, vittair, ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta, children, wife, friendship, then the false ego, "I am this body and this is my property," will increase. For that is material world. People do not know the end of life, or the aim of life. They are misguided, hence the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to give them an ideal way of life. So this is very nice place. We have got small lakes also. Natural we have?
Brahmānanda: This varṇāśrama college...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama means everyone should be engaged. There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct).
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what exactly do the... Do the vaiśyas cultivate the fields or the śūdras cultivate the fields?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jagadīśa: Is it the duty of the vaiśyas to cultivate the fields or...?
Prabhupāda: Actually it is the duty of the vaiśyas, but the śūdras can help everyone, the helpers. The śūdras will help the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, as well as the vaiśyas. Those who have no brain—simply they can carry out order—they are śūdras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying śāstras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brāhmaṇa. They haven't got to work as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brāhmaṇa, with good character.
Prabhupāda: They, śūdras are there. Give him his eating, and some hand, pocket expense, hand expense, regular. If one can eat, then he has no demand. So the laborer has to be given to eat sumptuously. "Eat and work, take some pocket..." They will be (indistinct). Not that you call professional laborer and you have to pay twenty-five dollars per hour. That is nuisance. They'll drink. That's all. And not that everyone should have nice house. Why? What is the use? Go in the village, live simple, produce food. That's all. Eat. Why this electricity and three-hundred story building and...? And then you don't produce anything, eat fish. "And let me eat..." Artificial. It is very easy to take the animals in the city and slaughter. A little vegetable and milk, they are satisfied.
Satsvarūpa: In order to evidence this, should we consider that we have to act as kṣatriyas or shall we just preach and try to get others...
Prabhupāda: No... Kṣatriyas, I have already explained who is brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya according to guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), as you work, as you are fit for. If you are fit to become brāhmaṇa, become brāhmaṇa. If you are fit to become kṣatriya, become kṣatriya. If you are fit to become śūdra, do it. Three... Then... And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is śūdra. That's all. "Help. Help the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and take your food and little pocket expense. That's all." Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don't require, but even if it is required we can give.
Brahmānanda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members...
Prabhupāda: Yes, just to show people how to... The first-class men, brāhmaṇa, second-class, kṣatriya, third-class, vaiśya, fourth-class...
Satsvarūpa: But all in our society are Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: That is our real position. This is for management.
Nityānanda: You can have more than one?
Prabhupāda: No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule. As according to the work, if people are interested to work as vaiśya, let them become vaiśya. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as brāhmaṇa, let him work as brāhmaṇa. Let him work as kṣatriya. And the fourth-class, let him work as śūdra. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women. Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And śūdras can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things.
Jagadīśa: Cobbler?
Prabhupāda: Cobbler is less than śūdra. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare... He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he'll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class... Not that "Professor such-and-such," and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a brāhmaṇa—teacher means brāhmaṇa—and eating meat-Oh, horrible! Śyāmasundara? So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I'll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole... Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change.
Prabhupāda: So therefore must be the real center. Nobody is paying us any salary, superficially. But why we are working? (break) Therefore the slavery was there—"You must work." Those who are śūdras will not work. Therefore the slavery was there. (break)
Ādi-keśava: In this country, when they had the slavery, the masters were not qualified either.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the defect. That is the defect. Either the master is defective or the servant is defective or the system is defective. That is material world. Doṣa-catuḥsthānī, four faults: mistake, illusion, cheating, and imperfectness. (break) ...the struggle for existence—one mistake after one mistake, one illusion after one, one imperfectness after another. Like that, it is going on.
Prabhupāda: That is yajña. To work for Kṛṣṇa means yajña. Yajñarthe karma: "For yajña, performing yajña, one has to work." To work for Kṛṣṇa means yajña. That is performance of yajña. (break) ...Communistic idea is borrowing this idea from... But because they are imperfect, they have made center, state. And because it is imperfect, it is not successful. They have made center the state. (break) Tamo-guṇa means laziness and sleep. The śūdras, they are in laziness and sleep. So if they have got something to eat, they will not work. Laziness. Or eat more and sleep. This is tamo-guṇa. And rajo-guṇa means they are working for sense gratification. That is also useless. Tamo-guṇa is laziness and sleeping, and rajo-guṇa means working foolishly or for sense gratification. And sattva-guṇa means they know how to work. And therefore above this sattva-guṇa they become devotee, work for Kṛṣṇa. So without working for Kṛṣṇa, everyone is under the spell of these modes of material nature. And there is no training how to work for Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect of modern civilization.
Prabhupāda: Society has lost this saṁskāra process; therefore they remain in the animal platform. Janman jāyate śūdra saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. When a person is born even in human society, he remains a śūdra. Śūdra means almost like animal. Now he has to be reformed. That is called saṁskāra. Then twice-born. The first-class twice-born is brāhmaṇa. Second-class twice-born is kṣatriya. And third-class twice-born is the vaiśya. And remaining, who cannot be reformed, they remain śūdra. But there is cooperation between brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and the society makes progress simultaneously for everyone. That is human society. At the present moment mostly all of them remain śūdras or less..., caṇḍālas. So how there can be any peace? It is not possible. There is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, maybe a few vaiśyas only. They are also half-reformed. And European culture, that is caṇḍāla culture, yavana culture. There is no reformation, no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, simply śūdras and caṇḍālas mostly caṇḍālas. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is means for thoroughly overhauling the whole human society. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Rascal, where is your freedom? You are kicked out like football from one life to another. Where is your freedom, rascal? That they do not know. Therefore they are śūdras. He is being kicked out like football from this pole to that pole, and still he is thinking, "I am free."
Brahmānanda: They think reformation is a restriction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Reformation means restriction. Civilized means restriction. Aryan means restriction. That is civilized life. Unrestricted life means cats and dogs. Laws are meant for restriction, and they are meant for the human society, not for the cats and dogs. Why the legislative assembly is there? Why the cars are going right or left? It is meant for the civilized person, not for the cats and dogs. So civilization means restriction. A dog can have sex life on the street, but you cannot have. That is restriction because you are civilized. Civilized means restriction. The more you restrict, more you become civilized. Otherwise you remain animal.
Prabhupāda: That is real scientist. These are false scientists.
- idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
- sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
- avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
- yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam
- (SB 1.5.22)
Actually the Supreme Lord is the source of everything. So if one is actually scientist, by his scientific explanation he will point out, "Here is the cause of all causes." By scientific knowledge he will point out that God is the origin of everything. Then his scientific study is perfect. But these rascals, they are doing the opposite, that "There is no need of God. Science is everything," although it is imperfect. That is their fault. Therefore they are rogues. They cannot prove; still, they will insist, "Yes, we shall do. We are trying," like that, and misleading people. General people, they are rascal and fools. If you mislead them, they will be misled. Śūdra, mūḍhas. They are to be educated. Instead of educating them, they are making them more and more fools and rascals. (break) There is utility, but they have no utility. There is some service; they carry some passengers. They are carried nowhere. Simply they mislead.
Prabhupāda: ...for the kṣatriya? Kṣatriya means one who gives protection from being hurt, kṣat. Kṣat means hurting. So suppose if I unnecessarily hurt you, then it is the duty of the government to give you protection. So unless I am also punished by violence, I cannot..., He cannot give you protection. So this is also necessary. Therefore in the society there must be kṣatriya. The brāhmaṇas should be learned; they should give instruction, advice. The kṣatriyas should give protection; the vaiśyas should produce, economic development; and rest, they should assist-śūdras, that's all. This is the program of Aryan society.
Guest (5) (Indian man): How long do you expect to stay in Mauritius?
Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda is leaving Sunday for Durban and Johannesburg.
Guest (5): And the others?
Brahmānanda: They will stay here. We're making a center here.
Guest (1): Have you any program of Swamiji for the common mass?
Brahmānanda: Here in the evenings.
Prabhupāda: Actually I want to speak only to the intelligent... (break) ...the common mass, they will not understand. But we can perform kīrtana for the common men, so that they may be purified.
Guest (3): Yes, but don't you think that it would be impossible for you to come mostly?
Prabhupāda: No, no. So long it is not available, we must take the best advantage. That is another thing. But gradually we shall develop a society that all these unnecessary rubbish things should be rejected. That is the idea. Or those who are interested, let them manufacture car; we take advantage. We don't bother ourself how to manufacture car. Ajāgara-vṛtti. Ajāgara-vṛtti, the idea is... Ajāgara means the snake. So a mouse makes a hole in the field to live very peacefully. So, and he enters the hole, and a snake gets the information and he comes, enters the hole. He eats the snake... The snake eats the mouse and lives peacefully. So let this rascal manufacture motorcar. When we require, we take from them and ride away. We are not going to manufacture. There will be some rascals. Let them do that, mouse. We enter as snake. (laughter) That's all. We are doing that. We are doing that. I did not manufacture this house, but somebody, some mouse, has done. (laughter) And we have entered it, that's all. That's all. This is going on all over the world. You know George Harrison? He has earned money with so great hard labor, and he has given us a house in London, fifty-five lakhs' worth. Another boy, Alfred Ford, he's the great grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. He has given. He is giving still money. He is prepared with all his money. So those who are after money, material things, we have to induce them that "Spend for me," that's all, and let him earn. So far we are concerned, we shall live very simple life, simply in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not go to construct big, big house. He simply constructs his character, and the other kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they offer him, "Please come here and sit down." Therefore the division is... One who is unable to become a brāhmaṇa, let him become kṣatriya. If he cannot become kṣatriya, let him become a vaiśya. Otherwise let him remain a śūdra. But there should be ideal class. So we are trying to create an ideal society of brāhmaṇas. Then people will be benefited. And if everyone is śūdra, rascal, then what people will be benefited? They do not know how to live. The brāhmaṇas will give idea, "Live like this. You will be happy."
Prabhupāda: Shoot.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kill them.
Prabhupāda: Hm. They are keeping them in control. That is the way they should be kept in control, śūdras. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...very anti-Communist. They have an anti-Communist terrorism act. Anyone who is too much leading in their Communist ideas, they put them away. They have an island called Robert's Island. They simply detain them there indefinitely. (break) Very stable. Very stable.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. That is nice.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't have a welfare state here.
Prabhupāda: Why? That is not good. People will be lazy. In special cases the government may give some help, not that the bachelor daddies, and getting welfare, all the girls, and going to be prostitutes. In America they have created purposefully prostitutes. They know they will get money, and they have illicit sex. That's all. The social condition is not good.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Radio, and things like this.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you want to make mass communication, you can do anything. (break) Due to industrialization, all intelligent men, they came in the city. In the village it was deserted. So there was no improvement in the village, and people preferred to come to the city, means industry, business. So India's basic principle was village life. Now that is lost. The intelligent class men, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they left villages for earning more money in the cities, and only the śūdras, less intelligent class of men, less than śūdras, they remained. So what they will do? So village became deserted. Still you’ll go and see in Indian villages, especially in Bengal, so many big, big palatial buildings, they are lying vacant.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the villages?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the proprietor left and the poor cultivators, śūdras, they are accustomed to live in cottages. India's civilization was based on village residence. They would live very peacefully in the villages. In the evening there would be bhagavata-kathā. They will hear. That was Indian culture. They had no artificial way of living, drinking tea, and meat-eating and wine and illicit sex. No. Everyone was religious and satisfied by hearing—what we are just introducing—Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, Purāṇas, and live simple life, keeping cows, village life as it is exhibited by Kṛṣṇa, Vṛndāvana. Kṛṣṇa, if He liked, He could have lived in the cities. (pause) So the education was meant for teaching people to hate everything Indian.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: What about lazy people?
Prabhupāda: Let them become śūdra. Let them become servant. After all, unless he works, he cannot get his food. So let him become servant. He has to work to get food. No property. He should not be given any property. If you work, you can get food. Just like animal.
Harikeśa: How in the beginning is it decided that somebody is working and he should be given or not given?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: How in the beginning... Let's say you have a king...
Prabhupāda: Beginning Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: No, no. Let's say you have a king, and he is deciding this person is worthy of...
Prabhupāda: No, no, beginning, Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you read Bhagavad-gītā? You do not know?
Harikeśa: No, no. Yes.
Harikeśa: And that kṣatriya would engage everyone basically as śūdra and then pick from them.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: He would initially pick...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You pick up... You take the whole mass of people as śūdra. Then...
Harikeśa: Pick out.
Prabhupāda: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya, then he is śūdra. That's all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Śūdra is also required.
Prabhupāda: Well, gold plates, that is not a necessary thing. He can eat on plantain leaf, natural production. That is luxury. So when people live simple life, the luxuries will no more be required.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say the government is building some wells or some roads. They could feed the people who are doing that, śūdras who are doing that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śūdras, that "You dig this well and take your food." That's all. Work will go on. At the present moment I require one scissor. I can go to the blacksmith and pay him some grain. He will give me. Now they are producing, Krupp Company in Germany, millions of razor, millions of scissors. Now they will have to find market, where to sell. And as soon as goes to sell in India, the British government—"No, no. You cannot sell." Then he becomes angry: "Oh, all right." He declares war.
Prabhupāda: (break)...they have to manage, and the vaiśyas will produce, and brāhmaṇa will give the brain. Then the society will be peace... And at the present moment these śūdras, they are, by artificial votes, they are becoming the brain of the society. How it can be happy? The rascals, they are voted to the legislative assembly, and they are passing every day law which is never perfect. This is going on.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Stopgap measures.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They create problem, then they try to solve it.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Prabhupāda: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brāhmaṇa, and busy intelligent means kṣatriya. So the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). The society should be divided into four classes. The śūdras, they are busy fools. Therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool. So the whole world is full of busy fools. That's all. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find that for brāhmaṇa, śamo damaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣa ārjavam, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma sva... (BG 18.42). There is no recommendation that "You work hard day and night." The brahminical qualification is controlling the senses, controlling the mind, truthful, clean, knows everything nicely, practical application of the knowledge, full faith in śāstra and Bhagavān. Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. These things are recommended, not that a brāhmaṇa should become very busy whole day and night for getting food. So śāstra says, "There is no use of becoming busy for your food. Food is there already." Food is already there. He'll get his food. That is arrangement by God.
Indian man (1): So they got to order everybody. That's what I believe.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has to tax his brain. Kṛṣṇa has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra." And then the brāhmaṇas should give nice advice, teacher. The kṣatriyas should govern, and the vaiśyas should produce food and give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, then trade. And śūdras should help, worker. Here I see the Europeans, they are working as the kṣatriyas, government, and the Indians they are working as vaiśya, and the Africans, they are as śūdras. But where is brāhmaṇa? There is no brāhmaṇa; therefore it is not good. It will suffer. And if they accept, the government men accept our advice and do accordingly—we don't want government post, but we can give good advice how to govern—then everyone will be happy. That they are losing. There is no good head. They are simply thinking in their animal way, "Why the Indians should come here?" And the Indians are, "Why whites are neglecting us?" This is going on because there is no good engagement. So this is essential, that the society should be divided into four classes of men: the first-class men-lazy intelligent; second-class men-busy intelligent; and third-class men-lazy fool; and fourth-class men-busy fool.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we find śūdras even amongst the European class here, even though they are in the governing position.
Prabhupāda: No, we are not speaking "Europeans, Americans, Indians." We are speaking "human being." We never say... Bhagavad-gītā never says that the Europeans should be the first-class men and Indian should be the last... It never says. That is training. Just like engineering college. The European also can become engineer, and the Indian also can become engineer. There is no discrimination. Similarly, this division of society, that the whole human society, it should be recruited and trained up... Then society will be all right. Otherwise not.
Indian man (1): Is this still possible, Swamiji? Is there still possibility that that can happen?
Prabhupāda: At any moment, provided you agree. But you do not agree. Nobody is prepared to become a brāhmaṇa. Everyone wants to become a śūdra. This is the modern civilization.
Prabhupāda: There was no economic problem. Every time... Always this system is followed: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). And it is the duty of the government to see that this classification is properly being executed. That is the duty of the government. Secular state means that as you like, you can become. But if you claim to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa, not that you act as a śūdra, bangi, and also you are brāhmaṇa. No. That will not be allowed by the government.
Indian man (1): The purity must be there.
Prabhupāda: (break) Yes. In the whole world you won't find qualified brāhmaṇas. And they are required for guiding the human society. So therefore the human society is in chaotic condition. There is no guidance. The śūdras, they make things by vote. And what they'll vote? They're all rascals. What is the value of their votes? So that is going on all over the world. Fools and rascals they vote, and another rascal is selected. And after some time—"Oh, he is not suitable. Get him down," Nixon, and replace another fool, rascal. That's all.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...the government accept you as guide, then everything will be all right. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Tell them that "We are not going to take any salary. You simply take our advice, and govern." The modern legislative assembly, they should be composed of first-class brāhmaṇas, no salary. Then the government will be first-class. All of them are after money; therefore they are trying to capture the power. They have no idea, no desire for the well-being of the citizens. (break) ...this tree? Dates?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Called palmetto tree. Palmetto tree. Not fruit-bearing. Not fruit-bearing.
Prabhupāda: (Break)...beyond the sun.
Indian man: Beyond the sun. How would you explain about eclipse which we get?
Prabhupāda: That you ask some astronomer. I am not astronomer. But I understand from Vedic scripture that moon is beyond the sun.
Prabhupāda: Ladies, not lords. (laughter)
Indian lady (3): No. Yes, only ladies
Prabhupāda: They are better. It doesn't matter ladies or lord. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious is good. Striyo śūdras tathā vaiśyas te 'pi yānti param. It doesn't matter whether woman, śūdra or vaiśya. If he is... If she is or he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone.
Lilāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We were thinking that unless the African people can see an example of a devotee, they won't continuously chant. They will chant while we are there and then they will forget.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you become an example yourself?
Lilāvatī: So to live amongst them, we were thinking, is very important.
Prabhupāda: You become an example by your behavior. Example is better than precept.
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa's qualification is there—śama, dama, titikṣa, ārjavam and jñānam, vijñānam, āstikyam, brahma-karma... (BG 18.42). Everything is there, the symptoms. So you are doing business, the occupation of the vaiśyas or śūdras, and how you are claiming to become brāhmaṇa? The... Who is a brāhmaṇa, that symptoms is there in the śāstra. And not only the symptoms, Nārada Muni has said, "If these symptoms are found elsewhere, then he should be accepted according to the symptom." There is no question of birth. Yasya hi yaḻ lakṣanām proktaṁ varṇābhivyanjakaṁ yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta tat tenaiva viniriset. This is Nārada's vision. So it is the symptom. Just like a doctor, medical man. He diagnoses according to the symptom. He finds out the cause. So symptom is required, not that a man has become diseased or healthy by birth. No. By birth he is born. Then again, when he develops certain types of symptom, so one has to take him in that way. That is śāstra. We are accepting, or giving them sacred thread, brāhmaṇa, after seeing that they are actually acting as a brāhmaṇa, not superficially.
Prabhupāda: Nobody is advanced. Everyone is student. He must follow. There is no question of advanced.
Devotee (7): I mean, they call śūdras...
Prabhupāda: Śūdras? Śūdra, how he can be devotee? Śūdras are never devotee.
Indian man (4): No, he says sometimes the devotees, they call the other devotee that "You are śūdra."
Prabhupāda: That is jokingly. (laughter)
Indian man (4): Prabhupāda, sometimes you have said that this Gāyatrī was first spoken by the Lord, and this is a sound vibration of the Kṛṣṇa's flute, and it was heard by Brahma. Right? And these brāhmaṇas, so-called brāhmaṇas...
Prabhupāda: There is no question of "so-called." We want real brāhmaṇa. That's all. It was heard by the real brāhmaṇa, Brahma. Brahma, Brahma.
Prabhupāda: Stri-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām (SB 1.4.25). It is meant for less intelligent class of men: stri, woman; śūdra; and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means persons who are born in high family but they have no education. Just like a man born in brāhmaṇa family...
Dr. Patel: Brahma-bandhu.
Prabhupāda: ...but without education, without qualification, he wants to become a brāhmaṇa. They are called brahma-bandhu or dvija-bandhu. So Mahābhārata is meant for the, these persons: stri-śūdra-dvija-bandhunam. They cannot understand directly the Vedic injunctions; therefore it is simplified in a history. Mahābhārata is the history. History and stories, ordinary people, they can read with interest. But those who are advanced, they want higher philosophical thoughts. That is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ vāstava-vastu vedyam atra (SB 1.1.2). Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam idam (SB 1.1.3). It is meant for higher class. So there are different literatures for different persons. Why there are eighteen Purāṇas, sattvic, rajasic, tamasic? Those who are tamasic, for them it is advised...
Dr. Patel: Devī Purāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you get it sacrificed before Goddess Kali." But this is not meant for the high-class brāhmaṇa. This is meant for the third-class dvija. But still, he is induced to accept some authority. In this way there are Purāṇas. Somebody is recommended to worship Lord Śiva, somebody is recommended to worship Kali, Durga, Sarasvatī, many demigods.
Prabhupāda: So long he thinks himself as the body, he is jīva-bhutaḥ.
Dr. Patel: You said very well yesterday.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Jīva-bhūtaḥ. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). They are thinking, "Indian, American, brāhmaṇa, śūdra, man, dog, cat, tree." This is jīva-bhutaḥ. And when he understands that "I am not these things, I am Brahman," that is brahma... Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu begins from this brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. His teaching is completely on the spiritual platform. Therefore people misunderstand us. Because we are speaking from the spiritual platform everything, they cannot understand. It requires practice. Abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā (BG 8.8). Hm? What is that?
Dr. Patel: Cetasā nānya-gāminā, that you must have continuous fixing of your mind.
Prabhupāda: No, that... No, I know that. But second line, abhyāsa yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya gāminā (BG 8.8), that "One can understand the param puruṣa."
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Yes. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. (Hindi) Stri, śūdra or vaiśya, they are not advanced in knowledge, but Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). (Hindi) Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7). When he applies bhakti-yoga at the lotus feet of Vāsudeva, janayaty āśu vairāgyam. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Jñāna means only God is right, Kṛṣṇa is right, and all this is wrong.
Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means... Real jñāna means "We don't want this material world." That is jñāna. That is vairāgya because people are attached to this material world, and jñāna means completely detached. But he's suffering. On account of this attachment, he's taking repeatedly birth, birth, birth, death, birth, death, birth. So jñāna means to get release from this repetition of birth and death.
Yaśomatīnandana: That's the Second Canto.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The modern education means to create dogs. The dog goes door to door and moves the tail, "Please give me if you have anything." So this educated person with application goes, and they say, "No vacancy. Get out." Therefore they are dogs. Educated means dogs. They are creating dogs. In Vedic culture no brāhmaṇa will accept any job. No kṣatriya will accept any job. No vaiśya will accept any... Only śūdras. Only śūdras.
Dr. Patel: Now they are keeping dogs in their kitchens.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Doggish mentality is there.
Dr. Patel: You see, the people are spending more than thirty, forty rupees on a dog every day. But they won't pay two rupees to a servant, domestic servant in their home.
Prabhupāda: They are keeping servants also. But educated dogs. After passing so many examinations, they are seeking after master. And without master they will starve. This is doggish mentality. A big technologist, unless he gets a good job, he is nothing but dog.
Prabhupāda: There cannot be many ways.
Dr. Patel: You see, our sad-darśana. The Vaiśeṣika śāstra is nothing but the modern science. The Vaiśeṣikas also wanted, were going in search of God by their own way, were they not? The Vaiśeṣika śāstra is nothing but the physics and chemistry and mathematics, in true sense. (Hindi) Sad-darśana. Vaiśeṣika is one of the recognized darśanas of our ancient, glorious past. I think I am not wrong, sir, in that way. You will pardon me if I say, and I mean, press my point further.
Prabhupāda: No, you will say it is in your own way, even if it is wrong...
Dr. Patel: No, no. These are Vaiśeṣikas. They are Vaisesikas. Sudras you may call them, but Vaiśeṣika-śāstra was also found out by ancient civilized Indians in search of God.
Prabhupāda: No...
Dr. Patel: And the physics, chemistry, biology, science...
Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa was the greatest civilized man, but he is considered as rākṣasa.
Dr. Patel: But we are not Rāvaṇas, are we? We are Vaiśeṣikas.
Prabhupāda: No, anyone.
Prabhupāda: And the Patel was subordinate to Nehru. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: No, no. Patel, for the sake of the country he accepted the subordination. Otherwise whole India, all provinces, selected him as the prime minister. But because this man would have spoiled the whole thing he said, "I don't mind if my country is getting weak." He had a greatness of vision and a big heart. These are all petty-hearted people.
Prabhupāda: (break) Now in this age there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. All śūdras.
Dr. Patel: They're very arrogant community. Very arrogant community.
Prabhupāda: Which?
Dr. Patel: The Kāśmīrī brāhmaṇas. They had no guts to go against the Muslims there, but they showed their arrogance. Fools they are.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...Caitanya Mahāprabhu was sixteen years old, He defeated one great Kāśmīrī paṇḍita, Keśava Kāśmīrī.
Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. I have read it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...Digvijayi. And when he came to Nabadwip, then he was defeated by a boy, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nimāi Paṇḍita.
Prabhupāda: This is śūdra. If anyone depends on the master's mercy, he's a śūdra. Here in New Delhi, these big, big buildings, big, big officers, as soon as the government will fail, they will be street dogs, that's all. Now they are plundering, by official instrument. Now when the government will be finished, they will be street dog. That's all. This is your civilization. Immediately if all of a sudden there is attack in New Delhi, all the people will starve. There is no food at all, and they'll die.
Harikeśa: That's a really important point that the government takes more and more, and everybody gets poorer and poorer.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The government is also poor because they do not know how to govern. Buddhi yasya balaṁ tasya. If one has got intelligence he has got strength.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct), kṣatriyas, there is no (indistinct) kṣatriya...
Dr. Patel: No, what I mean to say...
Prabhupāda: ...everyone is śūdra.
Dr. Patel: No, no, really sir, but they are in business. They don't consider that they are this soul; they consider the body comforts and body...
Prabhupāda: That is śūdra. One has to become a brāhmaṇa, jñānam. But they have no knowledge; therefore they are śūdra. Brahmana means jñānam, vijñānam and āstikya: "Yes, there is God, and He is the original cause of everything." That is brahma-jña. Brahma jñānārthī brāhmaṇa. So where is brāhmaṇa? All śūdras. Kalau śūdra sambhava—especially in this age of Kali, everyone is śūdra, or less than śūdra. But still Kṛṣṇa gives the opportunity striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. How? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32), he may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even the śūdras, they also.
| Page Title: | Sudra (Conv. 1974 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 22 of Nov, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=162, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 162 |