Stool (Conversations 1968 - 1974)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Expert means whatever he is doing, he must do it very nicely That's all. Suppose you are sweeping this room. You can do it very nicely, to your best knowledge. That is expert. The people will say, "Oh, you have very nicely done." Any work you do, do it very nicely. That is expert. Don't do it haphazardly. To your best talent, to your best capacity, try to finish it very nicely, whatever it may be. You are entrusted with some work. Do it nicely. That is expert. If you think that you are unable to do that work, then whatever work you can do, you take. But do it nicely. That is expert. Don't imitate. "Oh, I have no capacity to work in that way, but I want to imitate. Oh, he is doing that. I shall do that." Don't do that. That is not expert. You take up what you can do very nicely and do it nicely. We have so many works. Kṛṣṇa is not that He is static. He is dynamic force. Just like Arjuna, he was not a Vedantist, he was not a brāhmaṇa, he was not a sannyāsī. He was householder. He was military man. But he knew his business, how to do it nicely. So you do your business nicely. That is expert. And when it is dovetailed in Kṛṣṇa, there is no gradation that this business is better and that business is lower because everything is for Kṛṣṇa. So that business becomes Kṛṣṇa. Do it nicely and Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And that is your success. Avyāpare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa-mulo hanyate 'khila pārthiva vānaraḥ.(?) Expert. There is a very nice story in Sanskrit. A monkey. A monkey... You might have some experience, that sawmen, who cut wood? Sawmen. So a sawman was cutting wood by the saw. So at the end of business it was half cut so he pulled down a, I mean to say, a plug so that next day he will come and he'll again begin sawing. So went away. So one monkey came. So monkey sat down there and began to pull on the plug because monkey's business is simply mischievous. So he did not know that his plough (?) and some portion of his thigh was within the hole and when he took out this plug it was, (claps) I mean to say, clipped, and he could not get out and died. So the instruction is that... 'Khila pārthiva vānaraḥ, vyāpare suvyaparam. Avyāpara means a occupation, an occupation which is not fit for you. That is avyāpara. Avyāpara-suvyaparam. And one occupation which is not exactly fitting you, you do not know how to do it, so avyāpare suvyaparam yo kartu... If one wants to act in a business in which he is unable to do, then he is killed just like this fool monkey. Avyāpare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa-mulo hanyate. That foolish person is killed just like this monkey. The monkey's business was not to imitate the sawman, but he wanted to imitate. The result was that he was killed. So that is not expertness. Expertness is you just try to do which is easily performed by you. You don't accept anything heavy task because Kṛṣṇa does not want that you have to do this heavy task. Whatever you know, you just apply it. You dovetail it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa does not say that you have to become like this, like that, like that, then you can serve Him. Does not say. Just like this cow. Just see. What does it know? He's an animal. You see? But the calf knows to brush his head and tongue like this, in love. It is doing and Kṛṣṇa accepting, "Yes." That is expert. First of all find out what is easily done by you. Don't take anything which is not easily done by you. You find out what is your occupation, what you can very nicely and easily perform, and do it for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is that clear? Expert? This is expert. Expert does not mean that I do not know how to drive motor car, and I will have to imitate somebody, "Oh, I shall become driver." Why? If you do not know driving, why should you attempt driving? Whatever you know, you just try it, that business, and try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. If you know driving, that's all right. But don't take... My Guru Mahārāja explained that you haven't got to learn anything extra for Kṛṣṇa's service. Whatever you know, you just apply it... Then you become successful. Because our time is very short. We do not know when I am going to die. As soon as I am out of this body, I am completely under the grip of nature, and I do not know what kind of body I am getting next. Of course, Kṛṣṇa assures that His devotee will never be vanquished. He will get good body. But I do not know what kind of body I am going to... Therefore before finishing this body I will have to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness very nicely. That is my success. Śabdhvā sudurlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte. After many, many of evolutionary process, I have got this nice human form of body in America or India, in civilized nation, or rich family, I have no economic problem. That's all right. So it is to be understood they are simply wasting. Oh, how miserable it is. They get the opportunity, and they are simply wasting for sense gratification just like cats and dogs. Whole day working, whole day laboring. Why? Sense gratification. That is also in the hog society. Eating stool, living in nasty place, and they have got very good facility for sex. Is that the end of life? So Bhāgavata says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājaṁ nṛloke kāṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You are working so hard and the end should not be simply sense gratification. Sense gratification you can get in hog society, dog society, without any, I mean to say, extra qualification. That is... Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. Viṣaya means this sense gratificatory business, you will have in any life. In bird's life, in dog's life, in cat's life.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (9): No, believe Him as a you are a servant and serve Him. Or you believe that you are mother to Him.
Prabhupāda: No, that is second. First of all surrender. Then what way you shall surrender, that is different thing, another stage, more confidential. First of all there is surrender. First of all you enter this house or this room. Then you ask, "How can I serve you?" That is different. First of all there is no surrender, or without surrender, full surrender, there is no entrance in Kṛṣṇa. No entry. Because those who revolted against Kṛṣṇa, those who wanted to become Kṛṣṇa by imitating Him, they are here in this material world. Icchā-dveṣa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa (BG 7.27). (Hindi) Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19), creation, that all the living entities who have come into this created world, they have revolted. They wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they have given the chance, "All right, you become Kṛṣṇa. You do whatever you like. I will give you facilities. You want to become Brahmā? All right, you become Brahmā. And you want to become the worm of stool? I will give you the facility." So these living entities are rotating. Sometimes he is becoming Brahmā, sometimes becoming the worm of stool, sometimes this, sometimes that. In this way he is changing body. This is material world. Or when he comes back again, back to Godhead, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). Then you'll haven't got to come back. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). So we have to prepare for that position, how to go back to home, how to go back to Kṛṣṇa and engage ourself in His service. Then the question of either as mother or friend or... That will be considered later on. First of all let us try how to enter kingdom of God. That is condition, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66), that "You surrender unto Me fully, giving up all your other engagements. Then I take charge of you." Ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi. Mokṣa is there. For a Kṛṣṇa-bhakta is nothing, mokṣa, or liberation. He'll do it. He'll look after it.
Haṁsadūta: Oh yeah, I've heard that.
Prabhupāda: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person: "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me?" "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of the... And when he became a tiger, he was... (snarling sound-laughter) Just like our Brahmānanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become mouse." You see? So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you again become stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of the cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take—these are the statements in Padma Purāṇa—then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating, talking nonsense, "I am God. Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man." How much low-graded people have become. They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God. I am this. I am that. I am free. I am..." And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahmā are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahmā and another has become the stool worm. Now we begin. (break) It is not difficult. Simply the layout should be sent to different parts, and they will make immediately plate, and that will be paper. Daily you have to send it.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is the stool of an animal. Now, the Vedic statement there is: "As soon as you touch the stool of any animal, you are impure. You have to purify yourself by taking bath." Even in your own stool... According to Hindu system, if you go to evacuate, after coming you have to take bath.
Prof. Kotovsky: This is quite intact with modern medicine knowledge...
Guest: ...that you must clean yourself.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, that's right.
Prabhupāda: But another place it is stated that "Cow dung, although it is the stool of an animal, it is pure." Even if you apply in an impure place, you become purified. Now, this is superficially contradicting. In one place it is said that "The stool of an animal is impure. As soon as you touch, you have to be purified," and another place it is said that "Cow dung is pure." So according to our knowledge, it is contradictory.
Prof. Kotovsky: But maybe...
Prabhupāda: There may be some exceptions, but, I mean to say, just like the cow dung is stool—this is an exception—but why this exception is accepted, that if you scientifically examine, analyze, you find it is correct?
Prof. Kotovsky: That is due to analyze. That's right. That's from common sense point of view.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, another, another instance is there. Just like conchshell. Conchshell is the bone of an animal. So according to Vedic instruction, if you touch the bone of an animal, you become impure. You have to take bath. You become impure. But this conchshell is kept in the deity room because it's accepted as pure by the Vedas. So my point is that we accept Vedic laws in such a way, without argument, accept because it is stated in the Vedas, and that is the principle followed by scholars. If you can substantiate your statement by quoting from the Vedas, then it is accepted. You do not require to substantiate in other ways if you prove by Vedic quotation. Śruti-pramāṇa. It is called śruti-pramāṇa. There are different kinds of pramāṇa, evidences. Just like in the legal court if you can give quotation from the law books, your statement is accepted, similarly, all statements which you give, if they are supported by śruti-pramāṇa... I think you know. The Vedas are known as Śrutis.
Śyāmasundara: Materialistic life is so bothersome. All the time some trouble.
Prabhupāda: Just like in hog civilization. That's all. They are thinking that "We are very happy eating stool." But others know that what kind of happiness he is enjoying. Similarly these rascal karmis, materialists, they are thinking by... What is called? Kini...What is called? Naked skirt?
Prabhupāda: Miniskirt, trying to show the private part and people will be attracted and she will be happy. This is regular prostitution. Regular prostitution. Still they are not getting husband. Even they walk naked... That will come. Say after fifty years it will come like that.
Śyāmasundara:They are starting already some places, walking naked.
Prabhupāda: And the law is you cannot marry more than one wife. The rascal lawgiver. So many women, there must be... One husband, at the present moment, must marry at least one dozen wives, otherwise they're going to hell. At least, she will know that "I have got a husband." Maybe the husband of twelve wives, but they are anxious to have a husband. That facility should be given to them. They are anxious.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī, Kṛṣṇa's consort.
Prabhupāda: Anyone approaches Rādhārāṇī, She recommends to Kṛṣṇa, "Here is the best devotee. He's better than me." And Kṛṣṇa cannot refuse. That is best devotee. But it is not to be imitated, "I have become best devotee. Therefore I have stopped." That is... Actually, that is a different stage. So even the best devotee... Without (being) best devotee, he cannot preach actually, ācārya, but he comes to the second stage. Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca. He has the vision of dviṣat, somebody envious of God. But it is not the vision of the best devotee. Best devotee sees, "Nobody is envious to God. Everyone is better than me." Just like Caitanya-caritāmṛta author, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja. He says that "I am lowest than the worm in the stool."
Sudāmā: So better to become and hog and dog.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The hog... The hog has no restriction, mother, sister or anyone. You have seen? The child hog is raising on the body of the mother, although a child. They are so sexually inclined. Sometimes they are having sexual intercourse with the mother. So you take this facility. If you want better facility for sex life, just become hog. So nature is giving the facility. "All right, come on. You eat anything without discrimination. Here is stool. And you can have sex life without any discrimination, your mother or sister. Come on."
Śyāmasundara: So the hippies have adopted that philosophy, hog philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: They have sex life anywhere, anytime, anyone.
Prabhupāda: Why? There are so many books. They are advocating that "You can have sex life. It doesn't matter whether it is mother or sister or daughter. Why should be restriction there? It is bodily necessity. That's all." They are advocating. There are so many books. You do not know? Huh?
Sudāmā: Yes, there are.
Prabhupāda: Because it is the thing required. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstra. Because it is recommended that... What is recommended in the śāstra, spoken in the śāstra, that is perfect. There is no mistake. Therefore it is being accepted. Anywhere we are going, beginning from old man to child, everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is recommended. Our intelligence should be applied there, that what is recommended in the Vedas, that is perfect. There are so many instances. Just like cow dung. You know cow dung? Stool of the cow? So according to Vedic principle, if you touch stool of an animal you become impure. Even my stool, I pass in the WC, and immediately I wash and become purified. Oh, this is my stool, personal, and what to speak of other stool? So stool is impure. But the Vedas say that the stool of cow is pure. So if you argue that "Cow is an animal. So animal stool is impure. How the cow stool can become pure?" that is puzzling, but because it is said by the..., ordered by the Vedas, it is fact. You analyze cow stool; you find all antiseptic matter. So therefore we accept the Vedic injunction as truth. We haven't got to make research. We save time. So according to Vedic civilization, whatever is stated in the Vedas, we take it-fact. That's all. Śruti. Śruti-pramāṇam. Śruti means Vedas. Pramāṇam means evidence. According to Indian system... There are two persons talking, arguing, but the person who can give Vedic evidence, he is victorious. That's all.
Devotee: The advantage of the van is that they can sleep in it.
Devotee: The advantage of a van is that it can be used for sleeping purposes also.
Prabhupāda: Sleeping purposes in India, tropical country, if you carry camp, if you want to sleep somewhere you just immediately set up a camp and pass night very comfortable. And you go on the field passing stool. Just catch up some watery place. (laughter) You can cook, you can take bath, you can wash your dishes, then put up on the trailer and go on.
Devotee: Mostly we'll be going to big...
Prabhupāda: I'll agree if you can send one van also, two cars and one van.
Devotee: Mostly we'll be going to bigger cities anyway. The roads between big cities are all right. But if we go places...
Prabhupāda: Work sincerely and everything will be supplied by Kṛṣṇa. Now take... (end)
Satsvarūpa: Prajāpati, the president of Boston temple. He's a Dallas boy. He's from Dallas.
Lucille: His name was Chandra but (indistinct)
Guest (2): Is he in Dallas? (several people talking, prasāda being served)
Prabhupāda: What is that? Milk? So many nice preparations given by Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I eat meat? Where is the necessity? Human being must discriminate what he shall eat. If you say, "Everything is food," then stool is also food for the hog. But the food for the human being must be different from the hog.
Guest (2): Is it our duty to convince everybody and to argue with people and say, "Now..." Because most of the people would argue for, "Where is your protein?" "Needs his protein," and you know, when they talk in terms of body consciousness rather than Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It's very hard to argue with that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I have argued. All these European boys, I had to argue with them. (laughter)
Lucille: (indistinct) in Bombay and the first thing he did was argue with me.
Prabhupāda: Big, big swamis, they are advocating, "Eat meat."
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: These are some small earth, mound of earth taken out from the inside to make room for oxygen for the plants to breath.
Prabhupāda: No, no. These are stools.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, these are not stools, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's a machine. They go around like this. And that makes a little earth taken out.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they'll be doing in the future.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Future, that is not science. Trust no future, however pleasant. This is the word. What is this? Everyone will say future. Trust no future, however pleasant. You may think it is very pleasurable. Why future? If you say that the biology, chemistry is the beginning of this life, so you are now so much advanced. Why don't you create? Then what is the meaning of your advancement? You're talking nonsense.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When somebody does like that, people will give him Nobel prize.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhāgavata: śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). A big animal is being praised by dogs, and hogs, camel, monkeys. So they're getting Nobel Prize from dogs, hogs, camels. They're not getting Nobel Prize from any sane man. That is stated. Śva-viḍ. Śva means dog. Viḍ-varāha means the stool-eater, hog. Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra. Uṣṭra means camel. And kharaḥ means ass. So they're being praised by these classes of animal. They're not human being. If anyone gives Nobel Prize to such rascals, that means the man, the committee, who is giving the Nobel Prize to him, they are composition of these animals, dogs, hogs, camel and ass. They are not human being. According to Bhāgavata. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I think I have explained it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are very benevolent. You take Kṛṣṇa prasādam for others.
Brahmānanda: Welfare work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do without taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Because you have got stool and urine within your body, and there are many germs. They're eating that. You need not make a separate endeavor to feed them. (pause) The individual soul is never lost. That is our philosophy. Dehino 'smin. He's simply changing different body under different circumstances. That's all. The soul, individual soul, is never lost. Neither he takes birth, neither he dies. He's simply changing the garments. This is perfect theory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when they think nicely, there's no reason why they don't accept it.
Prabhupāda: But they are not nice men. They are rascals. They're not even gentlemen. A gentleman will have some shyness, some shame. But they're shameless. They cannot answer properly, still, shamelessly, they claim they're scientists.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they know how to go forward and come back. Who has taught them this discipline? Kṛṣṇa is there, within. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Kṛṣṇa is dictating: "Now you go forward. Now you come back. Here is your food." He's giving intelligence. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). He's giving direction in every living entity, but when a human being, He gives direction, if he surrenders, that: "Go this way. You'll come to Me." Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ yena mām upayānti te. And that is human intelligence. So far these lower animals are concerned, they are given, being given intelligence how to eat, how to sleep, how to mate, how to defend. But a human being, if he engages himself in the service of the Lord, then Lord will give intelligence how to come back to home, back to Godhead. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is the condition. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). "Only to those who are engaged in devotional service with love and faith, I give him intelligence how to come back to home, back to Godhead." Therefore, after coming to human form of body, we must awaken our intelligence about understanding the Supreme Lord. And if we take up the process sincerely, with love, then Lord within will give you dictation: "You come this way, come this way, come this way." Otherwise, not. The first condition is: teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām. Therefore we are trying to engage all our disciples to be engaged twenty-four hours in devotional service. Then his life will be successful. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Satata. Satata means always, constantly. Just like we are walking, but we are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Others are walking. They're wasting time. But we are, we are walking, but, at the same time, we are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are eating. We are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are sleeping. We are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are working... Always. Then Kṛṣṇa will see: "Now he's serious. Let him have some intelligence, how he can come back to home." This is the process. And the pleasure of sense gratification, oh, that is also known how to do it by the hogs and dogs. They know. The hogs are eating everything, up to stool, for sense gratification. So the human being, if they have no discrimination, they can eat anything and everything for sense grati..., they are no better than hogs. What is the difference between hog and human being? The hog has no discrimination of eating. Anything it will eat, up to stool. So if a human being becomes like hog, without any discrimination, he will eat anything, that is advancement of civilization? Advancement of becoming hog. That's all. And they like, actually. The hippies, they like hogs.
Brahmānanda: We have to expose these rascals.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our business. (pause) Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhama (BG 7.15), always engaged in sinful activities. And because they are sinful, they have been given food by nature: "Eat dog. Eat the snail. Eat stool." Are these things eatables? And those who are intelligent, Kṛṣṇa conscious? For them, fruits, flowers, cāpāṭīs, nice things.
Brahmānanda: The swans and the crows.
Prabhupāda: The swans and the crows. So expose them as crows. (pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The leaders in our society, nowadays, seems that they forget their own present moment, but they're thinking for their children, future.
Prabhupāda: So how they are thinking? He does not know, what is the use of thinking rascally? One can think properly if he knows things. If he does not know, then what is the use of thinking? The madman also thinks. What is the use of such thinking? Now our thinking begins from the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As the body's changing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, similarly the proprietor of the body will change this body. At the last moment. Death means changing of the body.
Prabhupāda: Why not? Taste. Everyone is tasting sex.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is, the food.
Prabhupāda: I think I..., Germany, in the war, they extracted fat from stool because stool is full of fat and hypophosphytes. Stool. So there was scarcity of fat. So they were extracting fat from stool. By scientific method. There was no fat available in wartime. That my Godbrother, Sadānanda, when he came India, so I asked him that: "Your German people, I've heard that German people are very stout and strong. Why you are lean and thin?" So he replied that: "During the war days, there was control. So I was getting fat, butter, simply because we were children." He showed his wrist watch, "to this, this much. Only for children, this much butter, weekly, once." That means under, under-nourished. So therefore they are finding out fat from stool. And in the concentration camp, Kīrtanānanda told me, actually they ate their own stools. And who was telling me...? Śrutakīrti, you were telling me that in the, what is called? Capsule? They turn their stool into food.
Śrutakīrti: Oh, that wasn't me. No.
Karandhara: No, they turn the urine, they turn the urine into water.
Śrutakīrti: But someone was saying they also turn their stool into food.
Karandhara: I don't know about that. I know they change the urine into water.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The urine, you just distill. Then uh... No urine, if it is, if one distills, turns to water. So the salt is deposited in the flask, and the water, pure water will come out.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you invent this "New food"? New aerated water, manufactured from urine. Advertise. You'll get more customer. Māyā will give him intelligence to waste his time.
Karandhara: For all the six opulences, they'll choose someone, someone very beautiful...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is none complete. Except Kṛṣṇa. Nobody's complete. Our pro, philosophy is that we have to select if we... That we must have to. Otherwise, there is no life. Just like you scientists, you quote so many leaders, scientific leaders. Without this, there is no life. So... Just like in the Bengali there is a proverb that if I to, if I have to steal and become a thief, why not plunder the government treasury? Why pickpocketing? If I have to be punished as criminal, as thief, let me plunder the government treasury and then let me go to jail. So this is our policy. So if we have to submit to somebody, why not the best and perfect? That is our philosophy. You cannot avoid submission. That is not possible. Who is there who does not submit to anyone? Find out anyone. If you, if a man has nobody to submit, he brings a dog and submits to him. The dog is passing stool. He's standing. He's submitted to the dog. The dog is passing urine, he's submitting: "Yes sir, you pass your urine. I take care of you." This is the nature. If you do not submit to God, then ultimately you have to submit to the dog. This is nature. You cannot avoid it. You have to submit. There is no other way. Because your position is like that. Without submitting to one, you cannot live. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). This is the philosophy given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Prabhupāda: No, there is superior energy. The same example. Just like because I am now living, I am eating something, going to the stomach, the chemical action is going on. If I am dead, it will not. Therefore life is superior. On account of presence of life, the foodstuff which we are taking, that is being divided into different chemicals, some urine, some stool, some blood, and they are being utilized differently. So how can you say? But without life, such distinction will not act. Therefore life is superior. Even accepting life is also matter.
Karandhara: They say there is no evidences that that life is eternal.
Prabhupāda: Life is eternal? That is another question. That we shall see. First of all, you accept that life is superior. Make solution one after another.
Karandhara: Well so long as they do not see that life as eternal or significantly different...
Prabhupāda: No eternal, that can be understood by any child. First you have to accept that life is superior.
Prabhupāda: Yes. All animals, they eat their children.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have seen the eggs of snakes. They are small, this big, the eggs.
Kṛṣṇa-Kāntī: As the Kali-yuga advances, the human beings will eat their children too. Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like in the last war, they ate stool, their own stool, out of hunger. So when there will be no foodstuff, they will kill their own children. Already they are killing, abortion. Not only abortion, children grows... By surgical instrument, they kill and they take out the child... They are already killing.
Kṛṣṇa-Kāntī: When they take the pill, the birth control pill, are they killing their children too?
Prabhupāda: Killing means killing, what is that? What he is asking? I do not...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He is asking that they take the pill, birth control pill.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is one kind of killing. But directly killing. They, through some instrument, through the vagina, they kill, cut into pieces and get out. Living children. He is a scientist. That surgeon, he is a scientist, and doing this business.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say, nature supplies the chemicals.
Prabhupāda: So therefore that nature's potency is acintya. That is beyond your calculation. That is our point. How nature is supplying, that you do not know. How there is very common thing. Just like from my body there are so many worms and germs will come out from the stool, there are so many worms. I am also producing life. I am not going to add some chemical. But the chemical is being supplied by me, by my potency. Otherwise, why so many worms are there in the stool? Hookworm and this worm and that worm? Sometimes from wood, what is called, termite? They come. And who is going to supply there chemical? And not from all wood. At a certain stage, it will come, without your adding chemicals.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The chemicals are already there.
Prabhupāda: Already there. Everywhere chemicals are there. When the suitable circumstance is complete, then there is life. Svedaja. They are called svedaja. By fermentation, by perspiration, life will come. Aṇḍaja. Aṇḍaja means coming from the egg. (end)
Prabhupāda: You are carried always by nature under different conditions. You're simply being carried by the nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). You are under the grip of material nature. Just like pulling the ear.
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: By our desires we are pulled?
Prabhupāda: No. You desire. There it is. That's how. It is not willingly because you are willing desires against Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore she's giving chance, "Come on here. Take stool. Become hog. You wanted to eat stool. Come on." This is going on.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This also shows the eternal nature of the spirit soul?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not eternal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because I'm conscious.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore your consciousness is being revived. Come to the standard of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll be happy. That is our business. His consciousness is being misled by so many ways. Therefore we are trying to give him the standard consciousness, "Come to this point, you'll be happy."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want some more.
Prabhupāda: What is that more? It is a simple fact. Just like yesterday, day before yesterday, day before that we saw that stool. We therefore criticize. You are seeing for the last three days the stool, it is not cleansed. But day before yesterday's body, yesterday's body is not this body. And my body has changed, but I remember. Therefore I'm eternal. This is the proof. Eternity means I'm so... my body's changing, but I'm not changing. Just like, I'm old man. I sometimes think, "Oh, I was jumping like this and now I cannot jump." So my body has changed. But I want to jump. But I cannot do it. So that jumping propensity is my eternal propensity. But due to this body, I cannot do it. This is (indistinct).
Karandhara: They would say that, according to their observations, that nature of eternity only lasts one body.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness because, as this body... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As this body's changing in my experience, similarly, there's another change.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Transmigration. Bhramadbhiḥ. Bhramadbhiḥ means transmigration, wandering from one body to another. Just like I am here. I have got my this body, a dress, covering. And when I go India, this is not required. So they are taking that the body has evolved like that. But no. Here, under certain condition, I accept this dress. In another place, under certain condition, I accept another dress. So I am the important, not this dress. But these rascals are studying the dress only. That is called ātmābhimānām, considering of the dress, body. Bālakānām. Just see. They bring here dogs for passing stool. Dog stool is so very much infectious. The diphtheria and other germs, they are grown. But these rascals they do not know. They distribute dog stool everywhere. But cow dung, there is no cow dung. Vedas says cow dung is pure. That is neglected. Dog stool is pure. This is their intelligence. They give signboard: "Littering illegal"?
Prabhupāda: But dog stool is not illegal. Just see how foolish they are. If you drop a paper on this grass, that is illegal. But you can get your dogs pass stool, it doesn't matter. This is their intelligence. They will not allow if you are bringing one mango from other part of the country, but they will allow dog also bringing so many germs. They do not know. Dog also brings so many germs, infectious germs.
Revatīnandana: For their pleasure they're going home to drink beer and eat steak. That's all they're really interested in. They're just working to make money. I could see it and I didn't want to follow their footsteps.
Prabhupāda: Just like a śūdra, he cleans in the road for money. They are going as professor but the category is the same. You don't make any distinction between that sweeper and this professor. Or a hog and cat and dog. The hog is also working hard, whole day and night for stool, eating. So this man is also working like that. Beyond that he has no other knowledge.
Revatīnandana: The scientists, they have a term. Psychologists, they call it the idiot savant. The idiot savant means he's an idiot but he has one particular talent and because of that talent he can get along. Just like sometimes you find an idiot, he can look at a column of figures and he can compute the sum in his head very easily but he can't even understand how to tie his shoes. And I think these scholars are like that, they're actually idiots but they have one talent for Sanskrit or for history and because of that they can get along. They can support their body but otherwise they have no qualifications.
Prabhupāda: Śūdra. Unless he gets that post, he'll starve. He has got some talent in some particular subject but he must get some service. By serving others, he'll be able to utilize his talent and get some money, then he'll eat. This is śūdra's business. Dog's business. Just like a dog unless he has got a nice master, his position is very precarious. A street dog. Nobody will care neither it is (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: No. Knowingly means that every Indian knows that Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At least... The every Indian, at least Hindus, they perform Janmāṣṭamī, accepting Kṛṣṇa. But still, they will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality. They'll bring many other competitors. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be...? I have got Durgā. I have got this, Śiva. I have got that. I have got that. I have got that." This is going on as Hinduism. So many gods. So many gods. Although the Vedic literature says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). In Bhagavad-gītā... Everyone reads Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā it says, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: (BG 10.8) "Everything is emanation from Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). These things are there, but they'll not accept. Therefore they are offenders. Otherwise where is the difficulty? God is one. That is accepted. Eko brahma. God cannot be two. God is one. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām ekaḥ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One nitya, one eternal, one living being..., that is Supreme. We are living being. We are also nitya, eternal. But he is nityo nityānām. He is the chief of the nityas. He's the chief of the living entities. So that is chief. Kṛṣṇa personally says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is no more superior living being than Me." So these things are there in the Vedas. And they are supposed to be Vedic scholars, but they do not know the simple thing. So in that way they are ignorant. They read the Vedic literatures, but they do not understand, or they misinterpret in a different way for their own purpose. So they are, they're offender. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this situation, that "God is impersonal, and, everyone can become God, or everyone is God." This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this havoc. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi. "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore they cannot make any progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That difficulty is there—offenders. And later on, there are so many institutions. They say that "You can create your God. You can become God." That is going on. "Whatever you think as God, that is God." So how one can make progress under these circumstances? One gentleman was arguing with me... He was supporting Rama-Krishna Mission. He said, "Even stool I consider God. It is God." (laughter) He came to this point. "If I worship stool as God, then it is also God."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) No big man thinks like that. He thinks always small.
Prabhupāda: So that is natu... That is good. Big, big man. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was lear... "I am fool number one." And the author of Caitanya-caritāmṛta, he says that "I am lower than the, a worm in the stool." So this is good attitude. Nobody... Sir Isaac Newton also used to say that "What knowledge I have got. I have simply collected..." They're... Every, every big man thinks like that. That is good attitude. But there is comparative study, that "Here is a big man, here is a common man." So our proposition is that it is a great science, great philosophy. So western countries, they are intelligent, especially the Britain, British people. They had very good opportunity. Still they have got opportunity. So my request is that let us study this philosophy and science and if possible introduce it in the human society. That is our proposal.
Mother: Yes, well, father...
Prabhupāda: Because there are eight million, four hundred thousand forms of life. The trees are also life, the cats and dogs, they are also life. And there are higher, intelligent persons in the higher planetary systems. They are also life. The worm in the stool, that is also life. So, calculating all of them, there are 8,400,000 species of life. So if I am going to have next life... Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to change this body to another body. So our concern should be "What kind of body I am going to get next?"
Mother: I agree for some people to, you especially, to think of this because you are a leader of your Vedic religion. But for everybody to do that, where would we be? We couldn't all sit down and think all the time.
Prabhupāda: But where is that education?
Mother: But we... You can also work and think.
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, where is that education in the university to prepare the student for the next life?
Mother: Oh, but he must fit it in.
Prabhupāda: His name was Gopāla Banh. Gopāla Banh ...And there was a king, Kṛṣṇacandra. So the kings would relax by joking words by the jokers. That was system formerly. So Gopāla Banh was constructing a house. So the king advised another friend that: "If you go to his new house and evacuate..." Because the house is not yet opened, not yet established, "Then I'll give you one thousand rupees." So this man said: "Yes, I'll go and do it." So he was, he came to Gopāla Banh's house and began to say: "Gopāla Banh! Oh! I am called by nature. Kindly show me where is your privy. I have to pass." So he could understand that: "Why this man has come here to evacuate?" So he: "Yes, yes. Come in, come in, come in." So he opened the new lavatory and brought a big stick. So he said: "Why you have brought the stick?" So he said: "Yes, you can pass, you can pass stool, but if you urine one drop, I'll kill you." So "How it is possible?" "If it is not possible, I cannot allow." So these, these foolish scientific men, "You can speak, but if you use microphone, then I'll kill you." Yes. The Gopāla Banh's policy. They would not say: "Not allow." But in a different way. (break) For political diplomacy. Not directly: "No." But creating such position, it is not. You are chanting also? Sixteen rounds? Eh?
Prabhupāda: Give up your material activities and engage yourself in spiritual activities. That is mukti. Just like a man in diseased condition, he is acting. He is also acting. He is also passing stool, passing urine, eating something, lying down, talking. He has got activities. But that activities and when he is free from the disease, that activity is different. Similarly, if you change your activity, you can become mukta even in this life. That is mukti, real mukti. Muktir hitvānyathā-rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). If you give up your diseased conditional activities... Just like these boys who are in Kṛṣṇa, they are muktas, because they are not interested with any material activities. They are not interested to read in the morning any newspaper. No. They cannot waste their time in that way or take part in politics. No. They are simply interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading these books. Therefore they are muktas. They are all liberated. Because hitvānyathā-rūpam. Other people, they are reading newspaper, doing all nonsense, but they are not interested. The anyathā-rūpam. That is material business. Svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Svarūpa means jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). Every living entity is eternally Kṛṣṇa dāsa. So if you give up these material activities and engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa's service, you are mukta. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: With this background before, then that is why they start saying that before Darwin's theory there should be one. That is called chemical evolution. That is called pre-biotic-chemistry. Means before biological evolution started there should be chemical evolution.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that chemical evolution is part of life demonstration. That I have already explained. Just like the chemical, citric acid, coming from lemon tree, a life. It is coming. So all chemicals are being produced... Just like in your body, in my body, there are so many chemicals. Because the body is there, the chemicals are coming. In my urine you will find so much, so many chemicals. In my stool you will find so many chemicals. Wherefrom the chemicals coming? Daily, enzymes, so many other chemicals are coming. Simply the medical man analyzes the urine, and so many chemicals are there. Wherefrom it came? Because I am living entity, the chemicals are coming in my urine, in my stool, in my cough, in my secretion. It is coming. Therefore it is concluded that chemicals are produced by life, not life is produced by chemicals.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍha mūḍha mūḍha mūḍha. Defective means mūḍha.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they seem to be quite satisfied.
Prabhupāda: That, ass is also satisfied. By unnecessarily carrying the load of the washerman, he is satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. Even the worms of the stool, he is satisfied. (laughs) That is nature's law. He is satisfied. So this satisfaction
Karandhara: The saying is "Even the pauper is proud of his penny."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is also... You see... In Vṛndāvana I showed you? The dogs were starving, but as soon as he gets another female dog, oh, he is satisfied. To have sex. Oh. You see. So is that satisfaction? He is starving. The belly has gone down, and still, he is satisfied with sex. You see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's called illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is illusion. Actually, he is not satisfied.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like Govinda Khorana, he got Nobel Prize about two years ago.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So whenever he works, he never cares about anything, but he carries his only piece of paper and pen so that he can write molecules. So his consciousness is only on molecules, and he is very happy.
Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is māyā. That is māyā. Even the pig is happy eating stool. That is māyā. Āvaraṇātmika-śakti (?). Covering energy of māyā. Unless he's covered, he cannot eat and enjoy.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these are all guided by māyā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Prakṛti is conducting everything, as you are associating with qualities of prakṛti. That I have already explained.
Devotees: Jaya! All glories to... (end)
Karandhara: Yes. Moral atheists.
Prajāpati: In the West, there's what's known as Protestant Ethic, which means you work hard like a dog and a cat.
Karandhara: And enjoy, enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is done by the pigs. Whole day, finding out "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he eats some stool, gets some fat, "Where is sex? Never mind, mother, sister, or daughter. Come on, sex." This is pig life, pig civilization. It is not human civilization. This kind of behavior is found amongst the pigs, amongst the dogs. Do you think we have to create a human society like the pigs' society? At the present moment, they're eating anything and everything like pigs, and they're having sex with anyone, never mind. So it is a pig society. There is no discrimination. (break) ...the most popular thing is this drinking, eating meat and drinking wine. Is that to be accepted because it is very popular?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they use transcendental meditation...
Prabhupāda: What is this transcendental meditation? They do not know. The another cheater, and he's big amongst the cheated. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still, they don't want to come to their senses.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal means that however kick him on his face, still, he'll insist. That is rascal. Rascal means that. They'll never take good lesson. That is rascal. And sensible means he takes good lesson. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). And why they remain rascal? Because they are duṣkṛtinaḥ, very, very sinful. Very, very sinful. Don't you see? They are maintaining slaughterhouse. They are maintaining brothel. They are ruining everyone's life by sense gratification. These are all sinful activities. Therefore they remain rascal forever. They cannot improve. Because they are so sinful, they have to suffer, go to the darkest region. They'll have to become worms of the stool. That is awaiting them. But they do not know how things are going on. They are thinking, "We are now safe. We are safe." That is foolishness. That is rascaldom. So you are now feeling all right?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, our speculative knowledge, intellectual platform, is not helpful. We must receive knowledge from superior source, perfect source. That knowledge is perfect. Just like we give, generally this example, that to find out who is my father, my search out, research, will not help me, but if my mother says, "Here is your father," that is perfect knowledge because she's authority. Therefore, for perfect knowledge, we have to take it from the perfect authority, not by our speculative intellectual gymnasium. No, that will not help. Because our intellectual jurisdiction is very limited. That is Vedic process. Vedic process is not to acquire knowledge by ascending process, inductive process. Vedic knowledge is to receive knowledge by descending process, knowledge coming from authority. That, that you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter: evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Knowledge has to be received... Just like a child receives knowledge... He is inquisitive: "Mother, what is this? Father, what is this?" And mother informs him, "My dear child, this is is. This is this." So he is acquiring knowledge by descending process. And if the child wants to get knowledge independently, that is not knowledge. He'll touch the fire. Mother: "Don't touch, don't touch, my dear child!" But he does not know. He's thinking the fire as something eatable. So by the Vedic process, this experimental knowledge is no useful. Yes. The Vedic injunction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) "In order to receive perfect knowledge, you must have approach the guru." Guru means who has the perfect knowledge. So you cannot independently get perfect knowledge, intellectual. That will remain always imperfect. So intellectually, how you can conceive about God, who is unlimited, beyond your sense perception? We cannot know even ordinary material things, how great the sun is, how this universe is. We have imperfect knowledge. So our process is to receive knowledge from the perfect. Therefore, we are receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect. I am not perfect, but because I am receiving knowledge from the supreme perfect, therefore whatever I say, it is perfect. And that is guru. Guru does not say anything of his own manufacture or research. He says only what he has heard from the Supreme. That's all. So it is easier. It is easier. If the child says, "A watch, a watch," the child may be imperfect, but he has heard from his father, Here is a watch." That knowledge is perfect. This is our process. And Veda, Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. Veda, this word, Sanskrit word, it means perfect knowledge. Otherwise, there is no way to have perfect knowledge. There must be some source of perfect knowledge. That is Veda. For example, we... Just like cow dung. Cow dung is the stool of an animal. So in the Vedic principle, if you touch the stool of an animal, even your own stool, you become impure, you have to take bath. But the Vedas says, "The stool of cow is pure." And we accept that because Vedic injunction. And if you analyze, it is full of antiseptic properties, although it is stool. So by argument, one will say, "How is that? Sometimes you say that stool is impure, and again you say this stool is pure." But that is fact. Similarly, if we accept Vedic injunction, we save so much time for so-called research work. That is the standard knowledge. So every knowledge is there in the Vedas. There are so many Vedas. Even for our ordinary dealings, just like Āyur-veda. Āyur-veda means medical science. Similarly, Dhanur-veda, military science.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to stop spread of communism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, now America has to do the same thing to stop demonism. Then your nation will be leader. You understand; you have trust in God. Now it is your business to trust in real God and work for Him. You cannot... I have explained already. You cannot stop communism. You have to stop demonism. That is your real business. Communism is another type of demonism. So if you remain a demon, so what is the use of stopping another demonism? The same example: stool, the upside is dried up. You cannot say, "Because it is upside of stool, it is better side." Stool is stool. Guer ei pita en opita. (?) (dog barking loudly) Come on. That's all right. He cannot make the condition of the world better by... Just like Professor Kotofsky. He was saying that there must be revolution. I was talking of authority. So the authority you must have to accept. So he said that authority is accepted upon revolution.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the condition of the soul, innumerable souls, within the body? Like the cells. All are living cells. These all contain individual souls.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So what these individual souls are doing to support the bigger soul?
Prabhupāda: No, they are living individually. Just like there are many germs in your stool. Because the stool is there, they are living. That is their perfect condition of living. That's all. But that germs has nothing to do with this individual soul, Mr. John. Just like I am living, you are living, but we are all independent different souls. They are living in their own condition, you are living in your own condition. But when you go to office to work, you find so many others are also working. But that does not mean they are dependent on your working or you are dependent on their work. But the condition is like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that proprietor stage is relative.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is relative. Relative means you are servant. You must satisfy by your service to the proprietor and get your nice salary and be happy. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Whatever He gives, you accept and be happy. That is Īśopaniṣad. You don't try to encroach upon others. You receive from the proprietor your emolution (emolument?) or your reward and be happy. That is Īśopaniṣad. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything is God's property. You take your share. You have got right. Just like a father and the son. There are ten sons. Everyone has got the right to share the property of the father, but as the father gives, not that I take away the whole property and others, brothers, may starve. That is not allowed. That is criminal. Here in the material world everyone has come to get the best profit, without considering profit for others. Others may go to hell. "Others, let them go to the slaughterhouse. I must satisfy my tongue." That is material world. "No, why you are slaughtering other living entities?" "I don't care. I want to eat. That's all." So you have to pay for that. You cannot put others into difficulty because God is equally merciful to everyone. But you don't care for God. Therefore you do whimsically whatever you like. So you are putting yourself in difficulty. This is the position. (break) ...mahad-guṇāḥ. Therefore without God consciousness, nobody is qualified. Nobody is qualified. Everyone is damned, condemned. (break) ...asato dhāvato bahiḥ. By mental speculation he will simply prolong his material existence, that's all. And that is troublesome. Material existence means just this. The dog is material existence. It is a standard of suffering. But he does not know. Under illusion he is thinking that "I am very happy." So everyone is thinking that "I am very happy," but he's in condemned condition. The pig. He is eating stool, living in a filthy place, but he is getting fat because he is thinking he is very happy. This is called illusion. You are thinking, "Oh, what a nasty condition. This animal is eating stool and living in a filthy place." But he is thinking that he is very happy. Unless he thinks like that, he cannot live in that condition. That is called illusion. He does not know what is the actual high standard of happiness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we don't experience, we may not know that we are suffering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got little freedom. Therefore this freedom is given, "All right..." So by freedom, sometimes we are becoming Lord Brahmā and sometimes the germ in the stool. This is going on. Otherwise, why there are so many different types of living entities? That freedom is acting under three modes: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, and tamo-guṇa. And when they are multiplied, three into three equals nine, nine into eighty-one; therefore 8,400,000 species. They experience everything. That is evolution, coming down, again going up, coming down again. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So when they become exasperated, "No more." They want to become merging into the Supreme. When they are fatigued. After being karmī, then jñānī: "This is not good. What is actually our aim of life, let us search out." But because they make research in their teeny brain, they come to the conclusion, voidism and impersonalism, that "Make it zero, this botheration." That is also imperfect. So when they come to Bhagavān and engage himself in the service, then it is perfect, original.
Karandhara: Just like there they build big buildings for them and let them...
Prabhupāda: But they do not go. In Bombay also, municipality has constructed big buildings, but they do not go. They hire it, yes, they get, to some gentleman. They get some fifty rupees and "All right, you take." And he lives in a hut. Yes. This is practical. They don't like. Just like a worm in the stool. You take it away. He will again, again go. (laughter) Again go there. You are very philanthropist: "Oh, my dear friend, why you are in the stool? Come on, here." "No, no, sir, I will go there again." How can you check it? Nature's law.
Karandhara: Well, they say it can be checked by time and education.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that time, you wait for time. By that time you will die.
Karandhara: Well, just like a hundred years ago in the United States...
Prabhupāda: No. These discrepancies will go on because this whole material world is being conducted by three qualities. You will have three qualitative persons.
Karandhara: Well, they think they are making progress...
Prabhupāda: That they are making progress everyone knows, what kind of progress they are making.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes the drunkards say also like that. They get inspiration by drinking.
Karandhara: There is one very famous philosopher named Dubrown(?). He said that he had a saying that "Some men say that you become intoxicated by wine, but I become sobered by wine."
Prabhupāda: That can be accepted. "One man's food, another man's poison." That is going on everywhere. But for that reason one cannot accept poison as food. Is it not? Just like stool is food for the pigs. But that does not mean stool is food. It may be food for a certain class of animals. (break) No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't think so.
Prajāpati: Food for somebody.
Karandhara: It is very hard.
Prajāpati: Harder than a bullet? (break)
Prabhupāda: Oh, you have not covered?
Child: That's all right. (break)
Prajāpati: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Karandhara: Trivikrama Svāmī went to their monastery in Laguna Beach. So they were serving meat. Trivikrama said, "Why do you eat meat?" And they said, "That doesn't matter. What does it matter what you eat ?"
Prabhupāda: Why don't you eat stool? This question was raised by Mālatī. One man said like that. She said, "Why don't you eat stool? Why you discriminate?" (break) Ramakrishna Mission has done the greatest harm to the Vedic culture. (break) ...said, "Why you are afraid of God?" He said like that. "Why you are afraid of God?" One Christian padre, priest, he said, "You are coming from India? How you are speaking like this?" He was astonished. But this rascal spoke like that. "Why do you believe that you are sinners? There is no sin." (break)
Prajāpati: The greatest sin is to think of ourselves as sinners. (break) Yogananda.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Because he was a rascal number one sinner.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is just like Śrīla Prabhupāda's example that the rabbits closing their eyes thinking that the danger is over.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Bahulāśva: Sense perception?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Mental speculation. When it is dry... So dryness also, sometimes it is, "Oh, it is very dry, bad." And again, say dry, we shall say, "Oh, today is very good." It is simply mental speculation.
Devotee: It is like wet stool and dry stool. It is still stool.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. (Chuckles) Yes, that is the example. The dry part of the stool, they say, "Oh, this part is very nice." He forgets that, after all, it is stool. So what is the dry or moist? Just like they are making scientific advancement. But the death is there. So what is the use of your advancement or no advancement? One who has not advanced in science, he'll also die. And you'll also die, advanced. Then what is the good? You cannot protect yourself from death. Then what is the meaning of this "good"? "This is good. This is advancement, and this is not advancement."
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that a sensible man is that "I am controlled. I am controlled by some other agent of Kṛṣṇa. So why not be controlled directly by Kṛṣṇa." This is sense. I cannot be independent. Just like the government. If somebody says, "I don't agree to be controlled by you," then government will kick with police, with military. That is our position. We are being kicked by the agent of government, material nature. We are desiring in different way to become controller or enjoyer, and we are being offered different facilities, means different types of body, birth and death. So because they have no sense, they have accepted this process. So by the force of nature... "You wanted to desire. You desired this thing. All right, take this body. You wanted to eat without discrimination. All right, take this body of a pig and eat up to stool." That is nature's gift. So therefore he's changing. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kono bhāgyavān jīva. He's going on changing, this dress that dress, that dress, that dress, that dress. But he's not in sense that "How I can stop this change?" That he doesn't know. Now, as Americans, they have so many nice facilities, but you cannot enjoy them. By nature's force, you'll have to change. What you can do? Today you are living on the twenty-fourth floor of this skyscraper, and tomorrow you may become a rat in that room. How you can change it? It is not in your power. The rat is also in the same room and you are also in the same room. Who has made this arrangement?
Nitāi: Well, they think that instead of being beaten that they're having fun, that it's pleasurable.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless he's...
Nitāi: They think, "Let us have all the pleasure we can."
Prabhupāda: That is another māyā's illusion. Unless he thinks it is pleasurable, how he can tolerate? Just like the pig, eating stool. Everyone is thinking, "Aoww", but unless he thinks pleasurable, how he can eat? That is another concession of māyā. Praksepātmikā, āvaraṇātmikā. He's covered by illusion. He is accepting the most abominable thing, but he's thinking, "I'm enjoying." This is called māyā.
Nitāi: Sometimes we tell them that this life is only full of miseries, and they say, "What do you mean?"
Prabhupāda: No, that is their foolishness. That is their foolishness. They do not know, they do not distinguish what is misery and what is happiness. They have no sense, no brain. That is their foolishness.
Nitāi: So we can convince them by pointing out...?
Prabhupāda: They cannot convince them because they are so rascal, so foolish, that they have no brain to understand what is the distinction. They have no brain. Just like cats and dogs. That is their fallen condition. Yes.
Sudāmā: They believe that this misery is good.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have explained. Unless they believe it is good, how they can be put in to miserable condition? Just like some of the thieves. They go to jail. They think, "It is very nice. We haven't got to earn. We are getting food here, free of charge. Yes, it is very nice place. It is my father-in-law's house." (laughs) So unless they believe, how they can tolerate such tribulations? The worm in the stool, he believes, "This is enjoyment." You take it from the stool, put it here, no, it will go again. It thinks it is pleasurable. That is their position. Therefore they have been described as mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). When they believe it, "Oh, it is not good," that is their good fortune. Then they are fortunate. That is explained by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kono bhāgyavān jīva. When they come to that fortunate position, that is first-class.
Nitāi: How does one become "bhāgyavān"?
Prabhupāda: Bhāgyavān, opulent... If you earn money, you become bhāgyavān. Bhāgyavān means... The word has come from bhagavān, and bhaga means opulence, six kinds of opulence: riches... Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). So one who possess all these things not exactly like Bhagavān, but partially, according to his position, he's called bhāgyavān.
Satsvarūpa: We say sense gratification is available for everyone, but they don't agree. They think, "If I don't have this nice apartment it's not the same as sleeping in a bad condition."
Prabhupāda: Bad condition, good condition, that is another thing. But you get it. You get it. Bad condition, good condition, that is my consideration, but things are available. Even the best apartment in India, that is not a good apartment for America. This is simply my mental concoction: "This is good; that is bad." I am thinking, "It is the best;" another may think, "Oh, it is lowest." The hog is thinking stool is very nice food, and I am thinking, "What is this nonsense thing?" So "best" and "good", it is simply mental concoction, it has no value. Just like these western people, what is their ultimate standard of best, nobody knows. Nobody knows. Just like hundred years before, there was no skyscraper building, but now even best skyscraper building is not best. So where is the standard of best and... It is all mental concoction.
Girirāja: So by that, there's a emblem of the theosophical colony.
Prabhupāda: I see. Oh, yes, yes. (break) One old lady... You know, in the villages there is fair, or market. So in the morning she saw that so many hundreds of men have assembled. So one lady of that village, she thought that "They have become my guests." So she began to cry and was asking his son, her son, "Oh, how I can accommodate so many people? How can I receive them as guests?" So the son said, "My dear mother, don't be agitated. In the evening you come." So in the evening when she come, there was nobody. There was nobody, because a marketplace. So this botheration is just like the old lady. After seeing so many men, she is agitated. And in the evening there is none. So it requires intelligence, that "They are coming and going. Why I should be bothered about that? Let me do my duty as human being." That is required. (Hindi:) Ek sat me dekhila. (break) ...unlimited number of living entities. Ananta. Ananta means you cannot count. Within your body, within your stool, there are millions of living entities. They are provided, maintained, by your stool, by your urine. So why do you bother? If your stool and urine can provide so many living entities, why you bother yourself? (Hindi) You do your duty as human being. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ sa... Don't become animal. That is required. (Hindi) (break) ...the essence of knowledge. People are diverted in so many ways. Human duty is... (Hindi) (break) That is human duty. Be surrendered to God. That is your duty. Then everything will come automatically. Everything will come. And without knowledge, how you can take care? That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: They are... So far as the custom hygiene is concerned, I mean, the... We have actually been teaching personal hygiene through religion. This is the only country that... Prabhupāda: But that is also hygienic. After passing stool, they are taking bath in the river. That is good hygiene. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That is good hygiene. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The river is moving water, clean. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have seen. They are taking bath in the morning. (break) ...Jakarta people. Dr. Patel: They are better Muslims than these Punjabi Muslims. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Bengalis are very good. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: That is rational. One who has got reason. "So this man wants to check me." So he stops. For eating, he has rational, what is his eatable. Dog does not like preparation made with too much ghee. They will like meat, rotten meat, and dried bones. That is rational. "This is my food."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And similarly, hog also, he likes to eat stool than halavā. He has got rationality. As you will not eat stool, you will like halavā, you have got rationality, then hog has got rationality. He'll not eat halavā, he'll eat stool. So where is the want of rationality? Why don't you eat stool? That is rationality. So similarly, he does not eat halavā. So where is the difference between you in the matter of rationality? You deny something, he denies something. Where is want of rationality?
Jayapatākā: Bhavānanda has said that in his previous life he had a pet pig, and he used to offer the pig sweet, but the pig would take the sweet and... He would not eat it. He would roll it in dirt. And when it is filled with dirt, then only he would eat.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Śyāmasundara: Something like that. It's called a "think-tank". She's named it. It's presided over by Lord, Lord Goodman.
Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is, unless the people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, either this board or that board, that will not help. First of all, people should know what is the aim of life, what is culture, how the human activity should be directed. The people should know first of all this. Otherwise, changing from frying pan to the fire, it is useless. That is going on. That change, revolution, is going on. Just like the Russian people, they changed the Czarist government into communist government, revolution, but still, they're unhappy. They're trying to change by another revolution. This is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). This is described in the śāstra as "chewing the chewed." Or the same simple philosophy: "This side of stool is better than that side." So he keeps the whole thing, stool. "This side, the dry side, is better and the moist side, wet side, is bad." This is no philosophy. It, it must not be stool. It must be gold. Then it is all right, this side or that side. That philosophy, that the dry side of stool is better than the wet side, this will not help. So first, first of all, human society must know what is the aim of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). We are part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu. We are suffering on account of our relationship with God. This is the cause of our suffering. Then we have to make plan how to revive our lost relationship with God. Then the... Everything is there in the Vedic literature. All directions are there. So we have to... Just like when we are in danger, we consult some learned man or physician or a lawyer, similarly we have to consult the Vedic culture, how perfect it is. This way?
Dr. Patel: It is not nonsense, and I'll...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: I am giving you the argument.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is nonsense.
Bhāgavata: Stool and sweet rice is the same.
Dr. Patel: As you are scientist, I'll tell you.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Scientist...
Dr. Patel: Please...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I cannot hear this nonsense.
Dr. Patel: If you don't hear, then there will be no...
Prabhupāda: No, no! No, no! There cannot be. If you say the sea and the land is the same, this is completely nonsense.
Yaśomatīnandana: What about hell? How does the jīva soul go to hell?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They go. Those who are going to hell, that is fixed up very quickly. It doesn't take much time. Hell means he is getting the next body, hellish body. That's all. Suppose he is going to get the hellish body to become the worm of stool, so in that way he enters the worm, mother worm, to get the body and enjoy the hell. That's all.
Satsvarūpa: Don't they sometimes have to go to Yamarāja first for practice?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is daiva-netreṇa. These things are finished very quickly. And if it takes little time, then this man who is dying, he remains in coma and does not die. Because the judgement is going on, the decision waiting, coma. You have seen sometimes a man is in coma for seven days, eight days? Yes. That means his judgement is going on, that... Such kind of death means very sinful death. Not yet settled up, very complicated case. Therefore it takes time.
Prabhupāda: Others also, followers. These ordinary, so-called Gosvāmīs in Vṛndāvana, in the outwardly, in religious dress, and inwardly they are committing so many sinful activities, they will become the dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana. So one Gosvāmī, he has taken very much objection to this writing, and he is making propaganda against me like anything. There was arrangement of reception. He stopped it. (break) That I have also written, that now, after finishing the sinful reaction, these monkeys and dogs will be liberated. That I have also written. (break) ...one has passed stool, during daytime, due to the sunshine, the upper side is dry. So if somebody says, "This side is better than the other side. The moist side is not so good. The dry side is good." (break) ...nation, you'll find (indistinct) gentlemen, but they do not know that these things are criminals. They think it is ordinary thing, illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication.
Dr. Patel: I think Abraham Lincoln was the best of the whole presidents. What is your opinion, Abraham Lincoln?
Girirāja: Well, moist stool or dry...
Prabhupāda: He gave the negroes freedom, Abraham Lincoln?
Girirāja: Yes, emancipation.
Dr. Patel: The Americans say he acted with negroes just we have acted with the aboriginals, the Āryans. What have we done with the poor aboriginals of India?
Prabhupāda: We have... (break) "...one sect. Because we are sitting in Haridvar, and people will come here. And A.C. Bhaktivedanta, he is going." So...
Dr. Patel: Bhaktivedanta has formed a canal to take the spiritual India.
Prabhupāda: So they are now envious. (break) Abaddha karuṇā sindhu, katiya mohan, abaddha karuṇā sindhu, katiya mohan... That "All men, you take..." "Nityānanda has cut open the stagnant water, and now it is overflooded." Like that.
- yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā
- sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ
- harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā
- mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ
- (SB 5.18.12)
yasya—anyone; asti—one, anyone who has; bhagavati—in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; akiñcanā-bhakti—unalloyed devotion, faith; sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ—with all the good qualities of the demigods, he is bestowed upon.
Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ: If one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He cannot possess any good qualification. Why? Mano-rathena. He is simply hovering on the mental plane. Therefore mind's business is to accept and reject. There cannot be any permanent thing. So one has to transcend above the plane of mind and fixed up in the spiritual platform. Then he can have all the good qualities.
So at the present moment, the godless civilization... Therefore the leaders, they do not know how to lead people so that they may become happy. It is the duty of the leader, government, father, teacher, gurus, to see that the subordinates are very, very happy. We find in the history of Mahābhārata that during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira people were not suffering even from excessive heat or cold or any anxiety. So it is the duty of the leaders of the people and the government to see that the citizens are perfectly happy in their occupational duties and they are advancing in spiritual knowledge, because human life is not to live a polished animal life. That is not human life.
In the śāstras we see that Ṛṣabhadeva, the father of Mahārāja Bharata, under whose name this planet is called Bhārata-varṣa, He taught His one hundred sons, "My dear boys, this human form of life is not meant for working hard like cats and dogs for sense gratification." Ultimate end is sense gratification, satisfying the senses. This is the business of the cats and hogs, or dogs and hogs. The hog is whole day working to find out stool: "Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he gets some stool, little strength, immediately sex life, without any discrimination whether she is mother or sister or daughter. This kind of life is described in the śāstras as hog civilization. So at the present moment, without any reference to God consciousness, people are being taught to satisfy the senses, work very hard, and ruin the chance of human life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, dog or hog, but the same. There is no much difference. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ (SB 2.3.19). These animals have been especially mentioned. Śva means dog, and viḍ-varāha means hog. Śva viḍ-varā...
Dr. Patel: Viḍ-varāha: "dirty eating hog."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vit. Vit means stool. Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra. Uṣṭra means camel, and khara means ass. So these gṛhamedhīs they have been described as the śva, viḍ-varāha, uṣṭra, khara. Bhāgavata is very strong (laughs) in criticizing. Therefore in the beginning it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra: (SB 1.1.2) "All types of cheating religion is rejected." Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra. Kaitava means cheating. Śrīdhara Swāmī, he has... Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ: "This Bhāgavata is meant for paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ, those who are above this material existence, paramahaṁsas." Bhāgavata is not meant for ordinary men.
Dr. Patel: Who can make a distinction between milk and water.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no, means he accepts only the milk, not the water. Similarly, this whole world is mixture of spirit and matter, so he rejects matter; he takes only spirit. That is paramahaṁsa. Go on.
Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, there was a French philosopher, Voltaire. He said you should not simply criticize negatively, because this is the best of all the possible worlds there is. This is all we have. So they would criticize that our hope in the spiritual world is utopian. Better turn to cultivate the material world as best you can.
Prabhupāda: No, material world we can see that it is useless. Everyone sees. That I am giving, this example. Before, the Romans, they constructed this big, big building. Now what is the value of that? It has no value. Simply it is kept as sentiment, relics. That's all. So this will be also the same thing. So where is the utility? Spiritual, apart from spiritual, what is the value of your material activity? It is practical. Everyone can see. If one comes to Rome, they can see that these big, big buildings, they were very nice building at that time, very wonderful building, but what is the value of it now? Anyone can see. Any sane man can see. So why should we waste our energy in that way? If there is any valuable work, let us see. That is intelligence. To make another heaps of relics, is that very good sense? Nobody will go there even to urine or pass stool.
Prabhupāda: Therefore cow is specially recommended, go-rakṣya, because very important animal to the society. If those who are meat-eaters, they can eat the hogs and dogs, they can eat. The Vedic injunction is not prohibiting them. If you actually... Actually, a human being does not require to eat meat. He has got many other substitutes. But still, if he wants to eat, let him eat the less important animals. Just like dog, hog. From the social point of view it has no utility. But why killing cows? It is delivering such a nice nutritious food, milk. Not only milk. According to Vedic system, the cow is so important, even the urine, even the stool, of cow is important.
C. Hennis: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So such an important... And besides that, from moral point of view, you are drinking the milk of cow, and after that you are sending to the slaughterhouse. Do you like to send your mother to the slaughterhouse? And the bull is giving you, producing your food. Nowadays they have invented tractor or engaging sometimes horse. But in India still, the bulls are engaged for tilling the ground, the field, and produces. So from moral sense, the bull is producing your food and the cow is giving milk to you; therefore father and mother. Just like father produces food for the children and the mother gives the milk. So if the human society has not this simple brain of understanding, then where is brain?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: And the bodies were already dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies, his fiance or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies they would eat them last. It's true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister-in-law, cousin. They said, "If we're going to eat the bodies, then we'll eat them the last." So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that.
Prabhupāda: No, in last war they ate stool also.
Yogeśvara: Concentration camps.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Really? What is the Vaiṣṇava point of view?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is a Vaiṣṇava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa even if he has to break regulative principles—if it is necessary?
Prabhupāda: If it is necessary.
Yogeśvara: What's the name of that yogi who meditated for sixty thousand years?
Nitāi: Saubhari? Viśvāmitra.
Prabhupāda: Generally, people are mixed, rajas-tamas. So human life, also, they're animals like. They cannot understand anything. Just like when we speak of "Don't eat meat," they become angry. So what is this human life? It is simply in the form of human life. They give example that "There are many animals; they eat flesh. Therefore why we shall not eat?" The other day, the man... I, "You are not animal." Then he was stopped. He thinks that he's human being, but he wants to eat like animal. So what kind of human being he is? Just see. He is proud to become human being, but he wants to behave like animal. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has taken all these people as paśu. Sei paśu baḍo durācāra. He has not said that he's human being.
nitāi nā bolilo mukhe, majilo saṁsāra-sukhe,
- vidyā-kule ki koribe tāra
Vidyā-kule ki koribe tāra. Sei paśu baḍo durācāra. Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra. Bhāgavata says, "They're not human beings." Śva, dog, viḍ-varāha, hogs, stool-eating hogs; śva-viḍ-varāha, uṣṭra, camel. Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. Anyone who is accepting this body as self, he's animal.
Prabhupāda: Because he has no information what is spiritual desire, he thinks material desire is as good as spiritual desire. (French)
Karandhara: They don't have a conception of spiritual. To them everything is material.
Prabhupāda: No, it is ignorance. Just like a man is suffering from disease. He is also lying down. He is also eating. He is also passing stool. And if he is informed that "After your disease is cured, you will also nicely sleep, you will also nicely walk, you will also nicely eat," but he is thinking, "Again eating? Again sleeping? Again...?" This is something like this. "So I don't want to be cured."
Karandhara: Yes, that's actually the psychology behind Zen philosophy.
Prabhupāda: That is the trouble, yes. He does not know what is the sleeping in healthy condition and what is the eating in healthy condition. He thinks this eating and that eating the same.
Prabhupāda: That is independence. That is independence. If you don't surrender... That you can do also. But if you surrender, you are saved. And if you do not surrender, if you want to go to hell, Kṛṣṇa does not check you, "All right, go to hell." Kṛṣṇa comes to save you. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: "I shall save you from all sinful reaction of life. You have done so many lives simple sinful activities. Now you stop it. You surrender to Me, and I give you assurance that I'll save you." This is Kṛṣṇa's mission. And if you think that you don't want to be saved, all right, you can go to hell, again. You become again the worms of stool. That's your choice.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa:. So it's a very responsible position, to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Therefore those who do not do that, they have been described, mūḍhāḥ. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). One who does not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, they're all rascals. That is our test. A man may be very nicely dressed, running fast in the motor car. Ask him, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" "No, sir." "You are a rascal." That's all. Finish all business. We don't give any respect. We can give respect as a formality, but we can understand immediately, "Here is a rascal." That's all. Is that correct? Yes. To find out a rascal is very difficult job? Simply see that he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious. He's a rascal. That's all. That they may say, "You are very sectarian." Just like a criminal, he's punished, and he may say to high-court judge, "You are very sectarian. You are punishing me, and the other man, you awarded one million dollars. What is this?" Because he gave before a judgement that "This man must get this one million dollars," and next moment, he punishes one man, "Go to jail for six years." So the criminal may say, "Oh, you are so partial. You are giving, sending me to cell, and the other man, you are giving one million dollar. How is this?" But he does not know that he judging according to his work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have problem. They are killing only. The human society, they should be advanced so much that even the birds, they have nothing to kill for their eating. They have got sufficient food. And we are advanced human being. We are killing for eating instead of God giving us so much food, enough food. And they are still puffed up with advanced civilization. They have not even human feeling. These poor cows, they are giving us milk, the most nutritious food, and we can prepare so many nice nutritious foodstuff. So let them live. And if I want to eat at all, let it die. Then we shall eat. Why kill it? So they have no common sense. And they are leading the sinful life; still, they are very much proud of their civilization. And they are suffering periodical wars, war number one, war number two, war number three. This number will increase. Not only... Without war, thousands of children are being killed within the womb. This is going on. If you kill, then you be killed. This is nature's reaction. You will be killed within the womb. You will never see the sunlight. Again you die, again enter another womb, and again be killed. This has increased in modern society. Even the father, mother does not want to see the child living: "Kill him." And a few days, few years after, we shall kill each other. So they are not afraid of any sinful life. You see? The nature will not tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will not tolerate. God will not tolerate, because God claims, "I am the father of everyone." So suppose if a very intelligent son kills another son of the father, he is not intelligent, will the father be very happy? A father is father for the intelligent son and the fool son. But if the intelligent son thinks that "The fool son is useless. Let me kill him," the father will not be satisfied. So God is the supreme father, and He will never tolerate that "Because you are intelligent, you are allowed to kill another unintelligent living being." No. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā: (ISO 1) "Whatever foodstuff I have given to you, you eat then, live and be God conscious." The animals, they are not coming to eat your foodstuff, your fruits. They are, rather, producing milk not for drinking themselves. They are giving you, and you have no obligation? The milk produced by the cows, it is taken by the human being. They do not drink it. So they are giving milk. And after death, you are taking their skin. So every way they are serving. The stool, cowdung, we have stacked here. I have seen. There also fertilizer. In so many ways they are giving you service, and you are killing the poor animal. What is the human civilization? Therefore Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal killing first. When there was too much animal killing, the incarnation of Lord Buddha was there to stop animal killing. In Buddhism there is no animal killing. Although they are now killing animals, but originally Buddha religion means non-violence. Also Lord Christ also said, "Thou shalt not kill." And Kṛṣṇa says, ahiṁsā. So in no religion unnecessary killing of animals is allowed. Even in Mohammedans, they are also... Kurvāni. Kurvāni means they can kill animals once in a year in the Mosque. So everywhere animal killing is restricted.
Prabhupāda: Fish is not sufficient?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, fish is not enough.
Kṛṣṇa-kānti: They're never satisfied with the foods they take.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Investigation is going on about the availability of food in the ocean.
Jayatīrtha: Also. They want to recycle the stool. There's one big plan to make a big city, and then the stool is recycled, and sixty percent can be again re-eaten.
Umāpati: I heard that in Russia they're already making butter from stool.
Jayatīrtha: Because the body doesn't efficiently take all the nutrients.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They can make butter. This market butter is sometimes coming from stool. (laughter)
Jayatīrtha: We have to get our own cows very quickly.
Umāpati: Here too, in this country also, they're making butter from stool?
Umāpati: In this country also they're doing that?
Prabhupāda: The... I... No. During wartime the German people did it, at least.
Bahulāśva: Now they're making artificial milk also, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are propagating that milk is not good for the (indistinct) natural milk.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Some scientist came to see me in Melbourne. He was speaking like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was saying that milk is not good.
Jayatīrtha: Stool is good, but milk is not good. (laughter)
Umāpati: That's all right if you're a pig.
Prabhupāda: Stool is good... We see the pigs. They eat stool. They become very fatty.
Bali Mardana: Stout.
Bahulāśva: They have no brain for understanding Kṛṣṇa. That only comes from milk?
Bahulāśva: To have a good brain for understanding Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Not eating so much.
Prabhupāda: No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave, artificially he thinks that "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money (indistinct) ...lot of money, so who is better than me?" (indistinct) She has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology. The human psychology, animal psychology, that you have seen on the road, the sex. The animal does not require any education. The animal knows how to use sex; the man knows how to use sex. Where is the difference? Simply she is animal, she does the sex intercourse in a public street, animal (indistinct) an apartment, very nice apartment (indistinct). It is (indistinct), either you are dog or a human being, the fact is. He also sleeps. He sleeps on the street anywhere, and we sleep in a nice apartment. He also eats, and the human being also eats. He eats the stool and we eat very nice, palatable foodstuff. That sleeping propensity is there, sex life is there, and he is also afraid of enemies. Where is the difference? Difference is that dog cannot be taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness but a man can be taught. That is the difference. So if man does not take advantage of this human life, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is no better than a dog. He has no (indistinct)
Devotee (1): So her poetry is just like the braying of the ass.