Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then in the second point, under the heading of matter, it is describable to some extent by physical and chemical laws. But on the other hand, life is nonphysical and nonchemical; it is beyond matter; it is transcendental. That is the basic difference.
Prabhupāda: That is explained indirectly. What are those verses? Na chindanti, na dahati. Definition by negation. It is never dried up, it is never cut into pieces, it is never moistened. Why don't you find that verse? Negative way. Physical means this can be cut into particle, pieces, but here, it cannot be cut into pieces. Your physical and chemical, you have got idea. Any physical thing can be cut into pieces. But here the negative description is given. It cannot be cut into pieces. Now we have to see what is that thing which cannot be cut into pieces.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we say nonphysical, nonchemical.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is quite right. Physical, anything physical can be cut into pieces. Read it.
Hari-śauri: This is 2.20. "For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor having once been does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (purport) "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind. This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried."
Prabhupāda: This is nonphysical. This is not physical. Physical, what is that physical thing which cannot be burned, which cannot be cut, which cannot be soaked? There is no such thing to the physical exterior. Is there anything?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.
Prabhupāda: Therefore not physical. This is definition by negation. In the logic, there is a process of definition by negation. The Māyāvādīs, they define this Brahman, neti, neti, neti, neti, negation. "It is not this, it is not this." What is, that they cannot tell. They simply negate. That is a partial definition. Yes, go on.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the third point, lacks—in matter column—lacks specific inherent complex form, and life column has a specific complex form and activity by nature. Now here we are talking about complex form. Normally the matter itself is very simple by nature, but life tends, when the living entity is in a living body, the matter itself is also very complex when it is associated with life. But matter per se is a very simple, simple structure.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can you say, though, that the soul has a complex form?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, we get information that in the spiritual world the spiritual world is full of variegatedness. It is not just one variety. It is full of varieties. So we take that as proof of the complex nature of life.
Prabhupāda: We see that so long the life is there in the material body, he has got varieties of thoughts. That is the proof that life is full of varieties. As soon as the life is not there, no more varieties, only one variety, dead body, that's all, finished. And as long as the life is there, he has got so many ideas, so many arts, so many philosophies, so many... That is the proof that life is full of varieties. That is the proof. As soon as the life is off, there is no variety. So what do you want, more proof that life is full of variety.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this connection, this variegatedness in connection with life, can you take it as some sort of complex structures?
Prabhupāda: You can... Because we, at the present moment, we cannot understand, except physics and chemistry, we cannot understand life. So as we do not understand life, so therefore the definition by negation is there. It is not physical, not chemical. It is something beyond. But by practical experience we can see that when there is life, a living man wants varieties. That's a fact. Varieties. Otherwise, why we disagree? I have got some varieties, you have got some varieties. So the conclusion should be tested that living condition or life is full of varieties, therefore the kingdom of life, the spiritual kingdom, must be full of varieties. That is the conclusion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in the..., from our experience, it is quite clear though that matter, as such... For example, let's take a crystal of diamond or, that will be shown later in the slide, that there are... Actually crystal of diamond is built in very simple structures. It's a hexagon, six carbon atoms, one after another, forms a very simple structure. But on the other hand, now when life is in association with matter, if we take a simple cell, the cell is composed of so many big, big molecules like proteins and DNA's and all these giant molecules. And they are wonderfully complex.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So what this studying of a dead man, the molecules? When a man is dead, what is the condition of the molecules?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The molecules will deteriorate to simple molecules. It will degrade from big, big molecules to small molecules. In other words, it tends to be simple. When the living entity is out of the material body, the body itself becomes very simple.
Prabhupāda: No varieties.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, no variety.
Prabhupāda: That I explained.
Hari-śauri: The complexity is there because the spirit soul is complex.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Rūpānuga: The characteristic here, Śrīla Prabhupāda says, is that life has specific complex form and activity by nature. So that this activity, complex activity...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, axiomatic. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). By nature, ānandamaya. And variety is the mother of enjoyment. Unless... Just like these bunch of flowers... When there are varieties of flowers, it becomes a very enjoyable bunches. If you simply bring rose, although it is very valuable, it is not so enjoyable. But when there are small, insignificant leaf also, which is not valuable than the rose, but rose becomes beautiful. That is life. And who appreciates it? When a man is living. A dead man cannot appreciate this beauty. There is beauty. Combination of varieties is beauty, or blissfulness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Next point says, in the column of matter, it says it has temporary complex forms in association with life. On the other hand, life is immutable. From Bhagavad-gītā, it has neither beginning nor end. Now this is what actually we find when a living entity is in association with matter, now matter tends to the form, into definite specific forms. Like human body has a specific form, like that, other living entities have forms. But this is only due to in association with life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. As he desired, so he got a form. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). The form is offered by the Supreme Absolute Truth, as he desires. Just like the cloth has no form, but as the customer desires, the tailor gives a form suitable to his desire. Similarly, material world means we have got varieties. In the spiritual world also we have got varieties. Because we are originally of varieties of form, we are getting these varieties of body, being influenced by the modes of material nature. So I'm desiring that if I get such body, I can eat even stool. So God gives you, "All right, you take this body. Become a pig and eat stool." This is going on. Why? Your desiring. You eat, actually. So īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's friendly, He's sitting in everyone's heart, and the living entity is desiring. So bhrāmayan. Desiring means he wants to go here and there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni (BG 18.61). He gives a particular type of yantra, machine. This body is machine. Body is machine, everyone accepts. This is a machine. If we want to go to India, we ride on a machine, airplane, and go there. Similarly, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni. We want varieties of life, and God gives us a particular machine to ride on and travel, go to heaven, go to hell, become a dog, become a cat, become a demigod, become a tree. This is going on. Transmigration of the soul. God gives us a particular type of body, and we change from one machine to another. This is transmigration.