Akṣayānanda: So why should we accept that the living entity will not die.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is authority. If you do not accept, then this is the example, argument. That the factory surrounded by fire, it does not mean there is no life. From distance, you are seeing the sun from a very, very, 95 or 93 million miles away. Fiery it is undoubtedly, but it is exactly like that: that you see from a distant place, the iron factory, it is simply fiery. Your experience is from distance. You have not gone there. So the distance experience is like this, that you see there is fire, big fire, but still there are life. You have to accept this argument.
Harikeśa: Actually it is perfectly reasonable.
Harikeśa: In the fire there's fiery bodies.
Harikeśa: But then that must mean in the water there's watery bodies.
Harikeśa: And earth, earthy bodies.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is God's creation. Take, take out one fish, within five minutes, he'll die. And you put yourself in the water, within five minutes you will die. But you are living entity, he is also living entity. His external body is different, your external body is different.
Harikeśa: But my body is ninety percent water.
Harikeśa: My body is ninety per cent water. The scientists say that this material body is ninety percent water.
Harikeśa: Human body. So I've got a watery body...
Prabhupāda: Ninety percent water?
Harikeśa: That's what they say.
Prabhupāda: They say. They are rascals. (laughter) So much bones and flesh and so many things, others. And ninety percent water.
Harikeśa: Well, they take a cell and they say in the cell...
Prabhupāda: "They take," they... Don't quote them, they are all rascals. You come to your own reason. They say, then you accept them as authority. Then why don't you accept authority of Bhagavad-gītā, rascal? You are quoting some rascals and fools, and I am quoting from Bhagavad-gītā. Then whose quotation is favorable? "They say." And when we say, "Kṛṣṇa says," that is nothing! Just see, how foolish. "They say." These rascals, meat eaters, huh? Bachelor daddies, (laughter) they say something, that is authority. And (if) Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead says, (then) "Oh, that we cannot accept." Just see nonsense. That I... This argument I put forward with Professor Kotovsky that, "After all, we have to follow leader. So your leader is Lenin. And my leader is Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difference between the process? You have to accept some authority. Now it is to be seen whether Lenin is perfect or Kṛṣṇa is perfect. That is another thing, but you have to follow some authority. So you are stopped."
Harikeśa: But in science...
Prabhupāda: Again science.
Harikeśa: No, as far as the process goes, they are very proud of the fact that there's no authority.
Prabhupāda: But why you are following? Why you are quoting Newton? You are quoting this scientist, that scientist, why you are quoting?
Harikeśa: Well, Newton sat there, and saw the apple falling... Prabhupāda: If you don't follow authority, then why you quote so many previous scientists? What is the use of quoting if there is no authority?
Harikeśa: But the trend is, because Newton speculated the law of gravity...
Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all you settle up. Don't go away from the point. (laughter) The point is that there is no need of authority. Then why you quote this scientist, that scientist? You stop this nonsense. There is no authority. Hm?
Prabhupāda: If there is no authority, why do you quote so many rascals? Then come to reason, argument, that's all. If you quote authority, I have got my authority.
Harikeśa: So this fire... That makes sense.
Harikeśa: This fire, it makes sense. That there's life in fire.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is argument. When you do not accept authority, there must be reason and argument.
Harikeśa: But this ether thing is very troublesome.
Prabhupāda: Troublesome for you! (laughter)
Harikeśa: Yes. You said sound is in the ether.
Harikeśa: But I couldn't understand how air...
Prabhupāda: You have to gain that intelligence.
Prabhupāda: Sound is the proof that there is ether. Śabda. Now, I am talking, you are hearing. How you are hearing? Ethereal transportation. Otherwise how you can hear? I am talking here, and why you are hearing? This is ethereal. The sound is being produced, somehow or other the ether is passing, just (like) tele... What is called? Radio.
Harikeśa: They heard, people on the earth, talking on the moon.
Harikeśa: So it went through the air, it went through the space, sounds.
Prabhupāda: The moon (astronaut) says that "There is no life." Then who is speaking? Nonsense. (laughter) They talk in the moon, and they hear from here, and "There is no life." And we have to take these authorities. (laughter)
Akṣayānanda: I remember once you said that we may not live in the water but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a fish.
Akṣayānanda: So that is also a very good argument. I remember you gave that one.
Harikeśa: So the air is coming from the ether, so...
Prabhupāda: Because in the air there is sound. Therefore ether is there. It is a production of the ether.
Harikeśa: So would it be beneficial to try to understand the process of production? Like the example of the earth coming from the water. Because the water evaporates, there is left over minerals and salts and all these things...
Harikeśa: And the fire producing the water from excess heat. Like in the summer season and then the monsoon comes. And fire from air, from the friction generating electric current. But the air from the ether needs an example.
Prabhupāda: Air from the ether because when the air blows, you find the sound, sshhhh. That is ether.
Hari-śauri: Yeah, like some...
Harikeśa: But the example's got to go the other way. From the ether comes the air.
Prabhupāda: That you found out, example. But this is the proof there is ether within the air. That example is given many times in Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa!
Haṁsadūta: Does it mean beyond the ether there's no sound?
Prabhupāda: Beyond the ether there is mind, there is mind.
Haṁsadūta: There's no sound?
Prabhupāda: No, what is the sound of the mind? Everyone knows you have mind, I have mind, but where is the sound of the mind?
Harikeśa: There's subtle and the gross has no realm in the subtle?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is finer.
Harikeśa: So is that example of the space, then the thinner air, and the air, and the water, and the earth, and in between electricity...
Prabhupāda: The grosser, grosser...
Harikeśa: Is that a good example?
Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from the subtle form, finer. Finer than the ether is the mind, and finer than the mind is intelligence.
Harikeśa: Oh, and in the Bhāgavatam it also says that because the universal form desired to hear, that sound was created and then the organ for hearing. Like that.
Prabhupāda: That is also created.
Prabhupāda: Just like from ether, sound is created. Śabda, sparśa. Śabda, sparśa, rūpa, rasa, gandhaḥ, these are the five parmatra (?), object of sense perception. Budh, pañca parmatra, ten senses, the mind, and three modes, the material nature. This is the ingredient of the whole creation.
Harikeśa: So the basic element is the soul's...
Prabhupāda: Basic element is Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: And then the spirit soul's desire.
Haṁsadūta: And Kṛṣṇa fulfills everyone's desire.
Haṁsadūta: By manipulating the energy.
Harikeśa: So the most subtle form...
Prabhupāda: He is also... The living entity is creating different body for different enjoyment.
Haṁsadūta: The living entity?
Haṁsadūta: But he can't do it without Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is, he is subordinate.
Haṁsadūta: Just like our hair grows, but we don't know how it's happening.
Prabhupāda: It is sanctioned. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Everything from Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: Is the most subtle form of creation the desire of the living entity to enjoy this material world?
Harikeśa: And then Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: Supplies ingredients. Yes.
Harikeśa: So that desire, that is equivalent, or is that the...
Prabhupāda: A child wants to play, and the father and mother gives the toys for that play. So without getting help from the father and mother, the child cannot enjoy. Similarly, we may desire but unless Kṛṣṇa helps us we cannot fulfill our desire.
Harikeśa: Is desire a function of consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is desire, how it is living? It is dead body. Stone, stone has no desire.
Harikeśa: The spirit soul is...
Prabhupāda: Therefore, spirit soul is described as superior energy. He desires and he manipulates the matter. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5).
Harikeśa: It's very logical, step by step by step by step. Actually when it's seen from the point of view of the desire of the living entity, it makes perfect sense because he's got these senses and the sound, and then in order to hear, there has to be a vehicle for the sound, and then there has to be an instrument. And then in order to touch there has to be the vehicle and the...
Harikeśa: So therefore, from that point of view, it's very logical.
Prabhupāda: This is the point, you have to...
Harikeśa: Trying to do it the other way is impossible. From the...
Harikeśa: Empirical process?
Devotee: I don't know if that's the right word.
Harikeśa: Inductive reasoning? Deductive reasoning. Impossible.
Prabhupāda: Deductive reason is possible. Kṛṣṇa says that na jāyate na mriyate vā. This is deductive: you hear from Kṛṣṇa, and this is fact. And if you want to make research, how that living entity never takes birth, then it will take time and at the same it may not be perfect.
Harikeśa: I finally understood why you were always talking to Svarūpa Dāmodara about inductive and deductive reasoning.
Harikeśa: Because it's just not possible to go the other way.
Prabhupāda: By inductive reason you cannot reach the truth perfectly.
Harikeśa: Because it's beyond the material creation and you have to use the material senses and mind to understand. It's not possible.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, our point is deductive. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is perfect.
Harikeśa: So first prove the existence of God and the existence of the spirit soul...
Harikeśa: ...and then, they'll just have to explain...
Prabhupāda: And then it's creation.
Harikeśa: And that it's creation. They'll just have to accept they have desires.
Prabhupāda: Aham evāsam evāgre. This is the Bhāgavata's first instruction to Brahma. Aham evāsam agre. Agre means in the beginning. So in the beginning Kṛṣṇa was there, then creation took place. Similarly in the beginning of this body, "I am spirit soul," was there. Then the body comes out. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is there, therefore the whole cosmic manifestation has come about. Aham evāsam agre. And at the end of the creation, Kṛṣṇa is there. Similarly at the end of this body, I am there. Again I'll create another body. This is going on.
Harikeśa: It's Kṛṣṇa's trick just to give us this facility.
Harikeśa: This is Kṛṣṇa's trick just to give us facility.
Prabhupāda: And because I wanted it. Kṛṣṇa doesn't want it. But because you are rascals we wanted it. Kṛṣṇa (says,) "Alright, do it."
Harikeśa: So therefore, in the beginning Kṛṣṇa gives you the big post, Brahmā.
Harikeśa: Now you're in charge of creating a whole universe.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you want lord it over, "Alright you become Brahma." He gives so much facility.
Harikeśa: And then this Brahmā creates so many different desires, and then he goes through all the different bodies.
Akṣayānanda: Everyone becomes Brahmā first?
Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Or if you want to be a cat you can become.
Harikeśa: How can they say this isn't science? This is so incredible.
Prabhupāda: Desire is there. Desire is there. Just like in your country, the nudism going on. The desire is, "Ah, I shall remain free, naked." So Kṛṣṇa is giving you facility, "Alright, you stand here for thousands of years as tree, naked, nobody will criticize. You want to remain naked on the public street and you want to enjoy in that way, alright you become tree."
Harikeśa: Because desire is a function of consciousness, which is a symptom of the spirit soul, it's very powerful.
Harikeśa: Because it's spiritual actually.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Abhilāṣ means desire. Anya means "except service of Kṛṣṇa." That is beginning of bhakti. As soon as he desires something material for enjoyment he has to come to Me. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). The mind and the senses; with these things he is struggling for existence. Otherwise he is part and parcel of Krs..., mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhutaḥ jīva-loka sanātana (BG 15.7). He is eternal but because he is influenced by the mind, desires, and the senses, sense enjoyment, he is struggling. This is it, a struggle. So when he is too much fatigued, Kṛṣṇa comes and gives you good counsel. "You rascal give up these all desires. Surrender to Me, I give you protection." But he'll not do that. And if he agrees then anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11), all material desires, zero. Then bhakti begins. And if you have got a little pinch of material desires, then you have to accept different types of body. It will create, naturally. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). He is desiring under the influence of particular modes of nature, and he's getting body.
Harikeśa: One has to be very careful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise even a devotee like Bhārata Mahārāja, he had to accept the body of a deer. A little careless. Then nature's law will act. Hm? If you do not become cautious and if you infect the smallpox disease, you have to suffer. Therefore a civilized man takes process, caution, "Oh there is smallpox disease, I shall not go there. Or if I go there, I must take vaccine." This is human civilization, caution. And if you are animal, you do not know. So human life means not animal life. Very reasonable, very cautious, educated, cultured, that is human life. Not animal life. Drink like animal, or eat like animal, have sex life like animal. Freedom, animal has got all freedom. So that freedom is not allowed to the human beings. That is civilization. The same example. The animal has got freedom and you'll see in Indian market, vegetable market, some cow comes and eats, takes so many vegetables and eats, but he's not going to the court. But if you take one small piece of chili without, then you'll go to the court. So therefore, law is meant for human beings, not for the animals. Those who want to be free, they are animals. So-called freedom means animalism. That is not humanism. Humanism means to follow the rules and regulations and the laws, and then he is human being. Because law is meant for the human being, not for the animals. And when you come out from your home, immediately the law is keep to the right. And if you violate, immediately you go to the law. But a dog, he doesn't care. If you say, "A dog does not obey this law," that is no excuse. You are human being. If you don't obey then you go to jail. So many animals are on the street naked, they're having sex life, naked. You do, immediately you'll be prosecuted. Why? Because you are a human being. You have to restrain. Even if you like. Just like the Hawaii University students, "What is the wrong to become a dog?" So if you think like that then you become a dog, nature is ready to give you a dog's body. That is (Sanskrit). He's thinking, "The dog's life is very nice. This liberation of sex life on the street." "Alright, you take dog's body." Yaṁ yaṁ vā... Bhāvam... ah, what is that?
Harikeśa: Smaran bhāvam.
Prabhupāda: Ha. Tyajanty ante kalevaram.
Caitya-guru: Taṁ tam evaiti kaunteya.
Prabhupāda: Ha. "So you are thinking like dog, alright you take the body of a dog." And finished. Your human life is finished. And again wait for millions of years to come to the human form of life. Nature's law you cannot check. Daivī hi eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). The law is there. The same example, if you contaminate some disease, the law is you must suffer from that disease. So they are thinking "free." That is their gross ignorance.
Hari-śauri: It's very important then to accept some tapasya.
Hari-śauri: It's very important to accept some tapasya to purify your desires.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is, that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). Tapasya means to purify the desire. Tat paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Therefore if you simply keep your desires to the service of Kṛṣṇa, you become purified.