Girirāja: "Out of fear they could only cry in agony and stand erect on the banks."
Dr. Patel: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, that is their... That is right.
Girirāja: "...unable to help their beloved Kṛṣṇa. While this scene was taking place on the bank of the Yamunā, there were ill omens manifest. The earth trembled, meteors fell from the sky, and the bodies of men shivered." (break)
Prabhupāda: If a boy has got alone, without his elder brother, you see, there is anxiety also.
Dr. Patel: Even though they have realized the extraordinary quality of the sun, but they have not been able to think that he is God incarnate.
Prabhupāda: This means these things, these sentiments-anxiety, grief, anger, all these things—they are constant companion with the living entity. You cannot give it up. But when they are used for Kṛṣṇa, that is perfection. That is upādhi-śūnya, without any designation.
Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, we are only neophytes. How we can know if our anxiety is still material when we feel anxiety in devotional service?
Prabhupāda: No, no. If you feel anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, then it is not material. That anxiety is not... That is love. That is pure love, that... Why you become anxious for our children? Because there is love. So whole scheme is that you have to transfer your attachment to Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: All bhakti should be directed to the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan. This is called bhakti-yoga. Mayy āsakta. The aśakti, the attachment, is for so many things. Now we have to concentrate it on Kṛṣṇa. This is bhakti-yoga. Mayy āsakta manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Simply by this concentration of an attraction to Kṛṣṇa, you become liberated. This is the process.
Dr. Patel: First you must perfect your thinking of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you think of Kṛṣṇa, you are on the transcendental position. You are not in the material world. Māṁ ca vyabhicāriṇi bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān samatītya etān. He is immediately transcendental to all the qualities of material world.
Dr. Patel: Then he becomes brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20).
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if continuously... That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If you continuously remain yourself, thinking of Kṛṣṇa, smārtavyaḥ satato viṣṇu vismārtavyo na jatucit. This is the process: You have to think of Kṛṣṇa always. The yogis and others, they artificially, for a certain time, fifteen minutes, twenty minutes or half an hour, they think of Kṛṣṇa by meditation, and they engage again in the material activities. But here...
Dr. Patel: The yogis have got difficulty... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...helpful to bhakti.
Dr. Patel: That is why they are... I am getting sidetracked.
Prabhupāda: They think that these are the processes, mechanical process. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti is not mechanical. It is spontaneous. When you spontaneously think of Kṛṣṇa, that is perfection. (break) Abhyabhicāriṇi. (break) Apratihatā. Yena ātmā prasīdati. (break) ...anxiety for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is transcendental.
Dr. Patel: All mana buddhi should be concentrated to the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa. (break).
Prabhupāda: ...Madana-mohan, nobody can be saved from the hands of Madana. Madana-mohana we have to see.
Dr. Patel: That day we talked about these things... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...perfection. They think of Kṛṣṇa that "He is our child. Now He is going to be vanquished."
Dr. Patel: Because it was very late to come back from... (break)
Prabhupāda: Same sentiment, but in relation with Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: These sentiments are not absent in American society these days. That is why these boys are neglected by the parents. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...philosophers, Vedāntists. They were small children, woman, village persons and animals. But they were so much, I mean to say, full with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the perfection. (break) They're so fortunate. (break) Anxiety is also thinking of Kṛṣṇa, nothing else but Kṛṣṇa: "How Kṛṣṇa was smiling with us, how He was playing." That is natural. If you have got love for anyone.
Dr. Patel: "What will happen to us when He is not there?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thinking of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: To think, it surrounds...
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...everything is there, but centered around Kṛṣṇa. (break) Govinda viraheṇa me. Śūnyāyitāṁ jagat sarvam. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. Śūnyāyitāṁ jagat-sarvaṁ govinda viraheṇa me: "By Govinda's separation, whole world is void." You see? These are exhibited in the person of the...
Dr. Patel: That... (break)
Prabhupāda: "...Kṛṣṇa is gone, I shall die." This is govinda viraheṇa me. "Oh, what is the use of living if Kṛṣṇa is gone?"
Dr. Patel: He was just a boy of five, six, seven years. (break)
Girirāja: ...about a hundred hoods, how could Kṛṣṇa manage all of those hoods?
Prabhupāda: Oh, then you do not understand Kṛṣṇa. You are trying to understand Kṛṣṇa from your point of view. Kaliya may have unlimited number of hoods; still, Kṛṣṇa can expand Himself. That is Kṛṣṇa. You are thinking Kṛṣṇa from your standpoint of view.
Girirāja: So He did it, He expanded Himself.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Bhāgavata: But did the residents of Vṛndāvana see the many expansions or did they only see one Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: They may see one. That is not very difficult to understand. Just like Arjuna saw the virāṭa-rupa of Kṛṣṇa, and others saw Kṛṣṇa as chariot driver. Those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, their seeing of Kṛṣṇa and ordinary man's seeing of Kṛṣṇa, there is much difference. They think that "What is this? A boy, a village boy, they are worshiping." One so-called sādhu in Haridvar he has remarked like that, that "Bhaktivedanta Swami is worshiping a rural boy."
Indian Man: That was in the Times.
Bhāgavata: A rural God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughing)
Girirāja: Another thing we were discussing yesterday is that in Goloka there are no demons.
Prabhupāda: No. There cannot be any demons. Then how it is Vaikuṇṭha? Vaikuṇṭha means without any anxiety. So the situation of anxiety is created by the demons. Therefore, when Kṛṣṇa wants to fight, He has to come down here because there is no question of fighting. There is no chance of fighting. Everyone is devotee. A devotee will never agree. But they will agree Kṛṣṇa's fight, but here, in this field.
Girirāja: But the sentiment of anxiety or fear for Kṛṣṇa, is that sentiment in Goloka?
Prabhupāda: No. There is no such thing. That is separation. Just like gopīs, they are full of anxiety: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has gone to the pasturing ground." Their anxiety is there. Just like Rukmiṇī, she was thinking, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa may not give me up. He is talking in this way." She fainted. So anxiety is there. So the anxiety is that one may not be separated from Kṛṣṇa. That is the anxiety. And actually there is no separation, but the feeling of separation out of ecstatic love. Just like one who has got love for the other person, beloved, he always thinks like that, "My beloved may not be separated from me." This is ecstasy of love. Just like a miser man who has got much wealth, he always thinks, "My money may not be lost. My money may not be lost." Out of his too much attachment for the money, he thinks like that. Is it not? "How shall I protect this money? How shall I protect this?" To earn money is also troublesome. To keep money also troublesome. And when it is lost, that is also troublesome. This is the position. But there is no such thing, loss, but the anxiety is there. We shall return from here? (break) ...vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. So both the sādhu and the duṣkṛtina, by Kṛṣṇa's two activities, act differently to the devotees and to the demons. They realize. That is their achievement. By punishment, this Kāliya realized, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord." And devotees, by out of love, they realize. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is Absolute. In either process He is realized. Mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ. If one is sincere, then they gradually make progress. Yes. (break) ...vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām.
Girirāja: "O Lord, You have descended especially for the purpose of annihilating all kinds of disturbing elements within the world, and because You are the Absolute Truth, there is no difference between Your mercy and punishment." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...surgical operation is there, the knife is being used on the body, that means he is getting relief. It is not punishment. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) (break)
Girirāja: Is that benefit coming in all suffering or only when it is given by Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes. When there is suffering given by Kṛṣṇa... Therefore a devotee does not take seriously suffering. Tat te 'nukampāṁ susumīkṣamāṇaḥ (SB 10.14.8). A devotee thinks, "It is the favor of Kṛṣṇa that he has put me into suffering." They never see suffering as suffering. It is favor of Kṛṣṇa. That is devotee's vision. (break) It is exactly like a son who knows his father well. If the father slaps, the son never protests. He knows that "It is good for me." Similarly, a devotee is never disturbed when there is suffering given by Kṛṣṇa. (break)
Girirāja: A karmī is suffering just the laws of...
Prabhupāda: The karmī is different. The karmī is suffering. He is suffering just like criminal is suffering. A criminal is given slap by the police. That slap, and the father is giving slap, that slap is different. Although it looks the same thing, but there is great difference.
Satsvarūpa: So there is no benefit to suffering unless it is connected with Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When Kṛṣṇa... Therefore we shall fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa. As Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, mārobi rākhobi yo icchā tohārā: "Now I surrender. Now if you want to maintain me, that is all right, and if You want to kill me, that is also all right." This is surrender. It is not business, "If You maintain me, then I surrender. If You kill me, then I do not." It is not like that. Mārobi rākhobi yo icchā tanhārā. "As You like. If You want to maintain, that is also good; if You want to kill, that is also good." This is devotee's view.
Satsvarūpa: Someone might say, "But if one is surrendered why should Kṛṣṇa give him trouble?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is because he is always free. Why do you make Kṛṣṇa dependent on your so-called goodwill, that "Kṛṣṇa must give me always pleasure"? This is sense gratification. This is sense gratification that you approach Kṛṣṇa for your comfort, sense gratification. That is not bhakti. That is sense gratification. Prahlāda Mahārāja was given suffering by his father so harshly, but he never said, "Oh, I am devotee and Kṛṣṇa giving me so much trouble? Oh! Give it up." He never said that. Neither he asked Kṛṣṇa to come and save him. That is Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. The Pāṇḍavas. The Pāṇḍavas, they were always with Kṛṣṇa and they were suffering. They never asked Kṛṣṇa that "You are the Supreme, and why we are suffering?" Never said. Never said. That is Kṛṣṇa-bhakti.
Girirāja: "Because You are the Absolute Truth, there is no difference between Your mercy and punishment."
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is to be understood. If we understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Absolute Truth, then this is understanding, that either suffering or enjoying, it is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy. There must be some purpose. When Kṛṣṇa puts me into suffering, there must be some purpose. So we should welcome because it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Tat te 'nukampāṁ susumīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātmā-kṛtaṁ vipākam (SB 10.14.8). (Hindi) (break) "...misdeeds. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He is reforming me, slightly suffering. I would have suffered very greatly on account of my past deeds, but He is kindly accommodating me by giving little suffering. That's all." (break) ...by the wife of Kāliya.
Girirāja: (break) "...that this creature, appearing in the body of a serpent, must have been overburdened with all kinds of sins. Otherwise how could he have the body of a serpent? Your dancing on his hoods reduces all the sinful results of actions caused by his having this body of a serpent." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...to becomes angry by Kṛṣṇa is auspicious, auspicious. It is a very nice verse. "It is very auspicious that you have become angry upon him. He is getting salvation." (break) ...the punishment of Kṛṣṇa, one has to execute many pious activities in his past life, just to get the punishment of Kṛṣṇa. And what to speak of love of Kṛṣṇa, how much pious activities one has to do. If for being punished by Kṛṣṇa, one has to undergo lots of pious activities in the past life, then just see, to be loved by Kṛṣṇa, how much one has to undergo pious activities. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ (SB 10.12.11). That is described. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. Puñja means heaps, volumes, volumes of pious activities. Then one can come to Kṛṣṇa. Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. Nobody can come to Kṛṣṇa unless he has background of pious activities and one who has become freed from all sinful activities. Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. This is the qualification. (break)
Girirāja: ...some of our disciples, it is seems that in this life they did many sinful activities.
Prabhupāda: But because they have surrendered, all sinful activities is counteracted. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Anyone surrenders sincerely to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, immediately he becomes free from all reaction of sinful life. Because he is saved. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: "Don't worry." This is the process. So however one might have done or executed so many sinful activities, if he fully surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, then everything is counteracted immediately. But not that repetition, that "I surrender to Kṛṣṇa; then again I'll do some sinful activities and again I surrender." This business will not be allowed. This is called nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. That is the greatest sin, on the strength of Kṛṣṇa's mercy, to go on repeating sinful activities. That is greatest sin. Kṛṣṇa can excuse you-ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa..., mā śucaḥ—but you don't make it business, that "I commit all sinful activities and surrender to Kṛṣṇa to counteract." No, this is not good. This will not be allowed. (break) ...but you cannot cheat him. Then you'll suffer.
Girirāja: (break) "...been pleased by his undergoing all kinds of penances and austerities, and he must have executed universal welfare activities for all living creatures. The Nāga-patnīs confirmed that one cannot come in contact with Kṛṣṇa without having executed pious activities in devotional service in his previous lives." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...double feature is not understood by the Māyāvādīs. If Kṛṣṇa has created the whole, so why he should be separate? He is not separate, still separate. (break) ...regularly this book Kṛṣṇa, he will be liberated, simply by reading this book.
Girirāja: (break) "...narration of the Kāliya serpent and his punishment will need fear no more the envious activities of snakes. The Lord also declared, 'If one takes a bath in the Kāliya lake where My cowherd boyfriends and I have bathed, or if one, fasting for a day, offers oblations to the forefathers from the water of this lake, he will be relieved from all kinds of sinful reaction.' " (break)
Bhāgavata: ...actually are devotees or how do they become demons? Are they devotees? Obviously Kāliya is... Just like Jaya and Vijaya, they were devotees. And due to some offense, then they became demons and they fought with Kṛṣṇa to satisfy Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Anyone who is living in this material world is a demon. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is your mother?
Indian Lady: She is at home.
Bhāgavata: But only certain demons get to fight with Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is special demon.
Bhāgavata: So those special demons, are they are all like Jaya and Vijaya, are they all in that position?
Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily.
Bhāgavata: But to get to fight with Kṛṣṇa, they must have performed many pious activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhāgavata: Like Kāliya. So then if they have performed so many pious activities, then obviously they have done something very mischievous in order to take this demon's body? There is some falldown?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Without some mischievous activities... (end)