To serve one is the business of the dog. That is mentioned in Bhāgavata. So if there is dire necessity, a brāhmaṇa can accept the profession of a kṣatriya or the, even the profession of a vaiśya, but not the profession of a śūdra. But at the present moment, because everyone accepts the profession of śūdra, therefore śāstra says: kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Here is the example, that Sākara Mallika, he was brāhmaṇa, sārasvata brāhmaṇa. But because he accepted... They were learned brāhmaṇas, not fools. Very good scholar in Sanskrit and Arabian language, still because they accepted service in the Muhammadan government, they were rejected. Immediately. No. Punishment. That is punishment. In Hindi it is called hookah panibhyam. In the society, in villages still, if one is ostracized, nobody will smoke with him. Hookah. Hookah means smoking. And pani means not to accept his water. Hookah panibhyam. So that is ostracization. That was taken against Sanātana Gosvāmī. They were not gosvāmī at that time. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted them. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's special grace.
Punishment (Lectures, Others)
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Lectures
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
People suffer out of ignorance. That is called pāpa, sin. Any criminal... Mostly, he does not know the real law. He commits something unknowingly, by ignorance, and he becomes a subject of criminal punishment. Therefore ignorance is sinful life. Ignorance. So people should be enlightened from ignorance. And that is real religion. One should be enlightened himself, and one should enlighten others also. That is the mission of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra. Not the cats and dogs, animals. Manuṣya. On the land of Bhāratavarṣa, one who has taken his birth as a human being... This point is very important.
So those who are sincerely devotee of Vāsudeva, sometimes due to their past habits, may commit something sinful, not knowingly, but habituated; that is excused by Kṛṣṇa. Api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. But not wilfully. Wilfully, if we commit some sinful activities, that can be excused once, twice, but not thrice. then you'll be punished. Therefore a devotee should not commit wilfully any sinful activities in order to keep himself always fit in devotional service. He should try to keep himself steady, without committing any sinful actions. The primary sinful activities are described, and we try to follow. And if we chant sixteen rounds and keep ourself always aloof from the sinful activities, then it is certain, niścayāt, utsāhān dhairyāt, niścayāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati.
So one thing is guaranteed. If you engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and suppose you do not become perfectly mature, some way or other, you fall down... We should not fall down. Because if we have got enthusiasm and patience, we shall not fall down. But suppose we fall down. Śāstra says, tasya abhadra abhūd amuṣya kim. There is nothing inauspicity because whatever you have done sincerely, that is recorded in the book. In the Kṛṣṇa's book. Kṛṣṇa has got accountant. He keeps nice account of the activities of His devotees. That's a fact. Just like the nondevotees' accounts are kept by Yamarāja for punishment. Similarly, devotees' accounts are kept by Kṛṣṇa, personally. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Unless he keeps account, how He says, "I respond to the devotee to the proportionate surrender"? Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. The real business is surrender to Kṛṣṇa. If we surrender immediately, cent percent, then Kṛṣṇa also gives you the result immediately, cent percent.
He thinks himself independent of Kṛṣṇa. But actually, nobody is independent of Kṛṣṇa. I've given this example that the prisoners, the criminals in the jail, they go to jail thinking themselves to be independent of the state laws, outlaws. A criminal thinks, "I don't care for the state laws." But after all, for his activities, criminal activities, he's put into the jail. So at that time he's forced to obey the state laws. Outside the state laws, he's disobeyed. But within the prison, he's forced by punishment. Similarly, those who are defying the authorities of the Supreme Lord, they are all criminals, and they are being punished by Durgā-devī. Chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā (Bs. 5.44).
This man is trying to forget Me, to mislead others. He is misleading himself, others cannot be mislead, for the time being, but he is misled for good. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram eva yoniṣu (BG 16.19). These asuras, on account of their enviousness upon Kṛṣṇa, to prove that there is no Kṛṣṇa, there is no God, so these people are put into andhā yoni. Andhā yoni means in such, just like animals. They cannot understand about Kṛṣṇa. Kṣipāmy andhā yoniṣu. So that is Kṛṣṇa's punishment, that "He wants to forget Me, he wants to kill Me. All right, he, let him be put into such birth that he may not know what is Kṛṣṇa for many, many births." Yes, go on.
Therefore the Avantīpura brāhmaṇa says that kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ: "My dear Lord, I have served my senses so abominably. I should not have served in that way. Still I have done." Just like sometimes we commit so many criminal activities to satisfy our senses, because we want money. So pālitā durnideśāḥ. My conscience says, "You don't do it." But, because I want to enjoy my senses, I must do it. I must do it. A thief knows that "If I steal, I, then I'll be punished." He has heard from śāstra, or he has known the state laws, that, if one commits theft, he's punished. He knows it.
Then your business is successful. Nāmnad balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. If somebody thinks that "I am living in Vṛndāvana. I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So if I do something sinful, what it will do...?" Eka nāma, kṛṣṇa-nāme yata pāpa kare, pāpi haya tata pāpa karite nāraya (?). "So what sinful I am doing? A little sinful..." Yes, little sinful will be excused. But if it is done not willingly, but if you commit sinful activities willingly, daily, then you'll be punished. That is laws of nature. Even if you are bhakta. You'll be given chance, but you'll have to be punished. So therefore we must be very careful. We are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra means dealing with Kṛṣṇa directly. Therefore we must be very careful, cautious, respectful. Then it is nice, it is success.
You cannot approach the Supreme Pure being sinful and make Kṛṣṇa your order-supplier, that you go on committing sinful life and Kṛṣṇa will wash it. Kṛṣṇa washes it—once, twice, thrice. But if you consciously go on, continue the sinful life, then you'll have to be punished. So we should not think pervertedly, like Rāvaṇa and Kaṁsa. Kaṁsa was always absorbed in thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Also he got salvation. But not as associate, but he merged into the Brahman effulgence.
The Vedic version, they give us that "You should work in this way." But if we do not act according to the Vedic injunctions, that is called vikarma. And we become subjected to sufferings, impious activities. But we do it because we are mad after sense gratification. We do not care. Just like a thief, he knows that by stealing he'll be punished, but still, because he's mad after stealing, he'll do it, taking the risk of being arrested and being harassed. Nūnaṁ prammattaḥ vikarma, nūnaṁ prammattaḥ kurute, yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti. And they are mad after doing all this nonsense only for sense gratification. So Ṛṣabhadeva says, na sādhu manye, "This is not good." Yata ātmano 'yam. "As we have got this body, material body miserable..." Because as soon as you get a material body, you are put into the miserable condition of material nature. So we should not create another body so that we shall be put into, under tribulation again. That is intelligence.
Atonement. So the example is given, just like a thief, he knows that stealing is not good. He has got experience that in the past he committed stealing, committed criminal offense by stealing, and he was arrested. Then he was punished. Still, he's stealing again. A man knows that stealing is not good. By ordinary law, stealing is punished, and in the scriptures also, stealing is prohibited because it is sinful. And one has seen that a person who is a thief was arrested and was punished. Everything he knows, but still, he commits stealing. Why? Therefore Bhāgavata says through Śukadeva Gosvāmī that prāyaścittaṁ vimarśanam. Simply official prāyaścitta will not help a man ceasing from sinful activities. Official.
We say, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Why you are claiming yourself, as nation or individual or community? That's not proper. Just like pickpocket and a gang, gangsters, organized rogues, thieves. It does not change the quality. There was some talk, you know, between Alexander the Great and the robber. The robber proved that "You are a greater robber. That's all. Why you are trying to punish me?" Alexander the Great arrested one robber, and he was going to punish him. So the robber explained that "Why you are punishing me? You are also a robber. You are going under the name of conqueror, and because I am not as great as you are, therefore you are trying to punish me. So why you are...?" So Alexander the Great, he was very, mean, highly advanced in... He immediately released him. "Yes. I am also a robber. Why shall I punish you?"
This was spoken by the nāga-patnī when Kāliya was being punished by Lord Kṛṣṇa, kicking over his head. So this prayer was offered, that "For Your dust of Your lotus feet, so many great sages are hankering after, and they do not care for even liberation, simply to get Your, that dust of the lotus feet. We do not know how much this fortunate snake is, that he's automatically getting the dust. You are kicking on his head. We do not know what did he do in his previous life that he's so fortunate."
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
Even in family affairs it is going on. Why? This darkness. Ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu along with His associates, Nityānanda Prabhu, Advaita Prabhu, Gadādhara Prabhu and Śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda, they are trying to dissipate the darkness of this false identification. Kṛṣṇa simply instructed Arjuna about his darkness of identity, and He punished him, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase: (BG 2.11) "You are talking very big, big words, but you are lamenting on a subject matter on which no learned person laments." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. That means "You are fool number one." Paṇḍitāḥ. "No paṇḍita makes like that. Now try to understand what is the position."
So māyā is very strong. Although it is necessary, māyā is always dictating that it is not necessary. The real necessity is materialistic way of life, this is māyā's dictation. Māyā... We are now given a chance of māyā's jurisdiction. So māyā wants to punish us more and more, because we have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. Great punishment.
- kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare
- pāsate māyā tāre jāpaṭīyā dhare
Māyā means to give sufficient punishment to the living entities who have forgotten Kṛṣṇa and wants to enjoy material life independently. They are called conditioned soul. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). This conditioned life means we accept one type of body, we suffer sufficiently. It is simply suffering. There is no enjoyment.
That is our misfortune. But still, as we struggle against misfortune, to become fortunate in the material world, similarly, we have to struggle against misfortune. Māyā is very strong. But the way is also there, how to get out of the clutches of māyā. Pāsate māyā tāre jāpaṭīyā dhare. Māyā has captured by embracing, just like if you capture somebody very tightly, it is very difficult to go out. Hands and legs are all caught up. Similarly, we are under the clutches of māyā in that way. But māyā's business is just to punish, but as soon as we surrender to Kṛṣṇa, immediately māyā lets loose. Yes. Māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). Very easy thing.
Ahaituky apratihatā. That is the point. They are after... Anyone seeking after God, they are very much severely punished. This is their kingdom. But you can take this policy, that you are chanting cinema song, and they will not object. So ahaituky apratihatā. If some black-market means has to be taken for chanting, we have to accept that. What can be done? Our business is to chant, so if there is restriction, śaṭhe śāṭhyam ācaret, we should be also very clever. So, anyway, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and be happy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
That is the, I mean to say, superior position of nandātmaja, Nanda Mahārāja. So this is philosophy. Ordinary men cannot understand. But Vaiṣṇava philosophy is so nice that instead of becoming one with the Supreme, they want to become the father of the Supreme. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Nandātmāja. Rasika-śekhara. This is also a pleasure. Kṛṣṇa wants to be subordinate to His devotee as son so that He may be punished. He is punishing everyone, but He wants to be punished also. That is His pleasure. And who will punish Him? His father and mother, superior. Or superior lover, Rādhārāṇī, can punish Him.
So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific and sublime. Try to understand. Always read the books. Don't try to understand Kṛṣṇa ordinarily.
They want to finish this. But finishing, then what you are accepting? That they do not know. Therefore they are Śūnyavādī, Nirviśeṣavādī. If there is life... Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Simply by committing suicide, how you'll be happy? Because tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You'll have to accept another body. Either you commit suicide or die naturally, you have to accept. But if you accept natural death and natural body, then your karma kṣaya, you annihilate your karma, but if you commit suicide, then you become ghost. Because nature's punishment. You got a body and you neglected it, so you now you become, remain without body. That is ghost. Ghost means who does not possess this material body, but he has got the subtle body. That is ghost.
So without knowledge what is the aim of life, what is the actual life, if something is, somebody is misguided by so-called guides or guru, then his life is spoiled.
Now, just see the behavior of Lord Caitanya. Although He was not in agreement with the other party, still, because they were sannyāsīs, renounced order of life, Caitanya Mahāprabhu offered His respect by bowing down before them. It is the duty of everyone, not only between the sannyāsī and sannyāsī. It is the custom of Vedic system. As soon as one would see a sannyāsī, at once he should offer his respect. If he does not offer his respect, then it is enjoined that he should fast one day as punishment.
A few yards off from this place, there is a tree, and it is standing for thousands of years. Is not that punishment? If I tell Mr. such and such, "You stand up here for five hours," he'll become mad. That is a sort of punishment to the children. Formerly, the punishment was... The teacher, in the class, a naughty boy, he's asked, "Stand up on the bench." Therefore, half an hour to stand up on the bench becomes a very, very intolerable pain for him. So just imagine that the tree, this is punishment, standing in one place. I saw one tree in San Francisco; they say it is seven thousand years old.
I can simply make some spray to kill it, as you do generally, but that killing is another risk. But those who do not know, they kill it. Because you have no right to kill. Suppose a man is disturbing you. So if you kill, you become a murderer and you'll be taken into the court and you'll be punished, and if you say, "This man was disturbing me; therefore I have killed him," that is no excuse. You have killed this man; you must suffer. This is ordinarily we find in our general living condition. So in the state of the Supreme Lord, you cannot kill even a mosquito or even a fly. You'll be punished. Because God says that "Everyone is My child." Just the same example. Suppose I have got so many brothers. One brother is a fool, so he creates me some disturbances. I kill him. So will the father be happy? If you say, "Father, your this child was disturbing me. I have killed him," the father will be sorry, "Why you have killed him?" This is natural. Because one child of the father is a fool, the other intelligent child cannot kill him. Then the father will be angry or sorry.
We are not independent. Just like in the state, in your country, although you have observed the independence ceremony, but you are not independent. If you go... "Keep to the right," you go to the left, immediately your independence finished. You'll be punished. So this so-called independence is conditional. It is not absolute independence. If you want absolute independence then you have to go back home, back to Godhead. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are hankering after independence, but so long we remain in this material world, there is no question of independence. So intelligent man, when he inquires about, when he thinks over, that "I want independence from so many things, but I am not independent.
A servant cannot become master. That is not possible. But as soon as... As long as we shall persist on this wrong conception of life, that "I am not master; I am servant," er, "I am not servant; I am master," then he will suffer. The māyā will give him suffering. Daivī hy eṣā. Just like outlaws, rogues and thieves, they defy government order: "I don't care for government." But that means he voluntarily accepts suffering. He has to take care of government law. If he does not ordinarily take care, outlaw, then he'll be put into the prison house and by force, by beating, by punishment, he has to accept: "Yes, yes, I accept."
Standard of morality is to obey the Supreme. That is standard of morality. Example. Example is, just like this State, the State has law that if you commit murder, then you will be hanged. It is immoral. If you commit theft, then you will be punished. But when the State says that you go and become a spy and become a thief and bring out these documents on the enemy's camp, that is morality. If you kill a man, you will be hanged. But when the State order, if you kill an enemy, hundreds of enemy, you will be awarded gold medal. So if you stick to the principle, theft and murder, and do not follow the State order, you will be considered, what is called, tyrant, or what is that? Traitor. Traitor.
But the conditioned souls are so foolish and so dull, they have accepted, "Oh, these miseries are very palatable." Yes. They have no sense that they are always in three kinds of miseries: adhyātmika, adhibhautika, adhidaivika. This is constantly going on. Just like in the prison house, when the prisoners are there, it is not meant that they should be comfortably situated there. The prison house (is) meant for giving them always some trouble so that they can come to their consciousness that "We have broken. We are lawbreakers. Therefore we are punished here." But if the prisoner becomes so fool that "All right. Don't care for this prison. Let me finish this term and again commit nuisance and again come to the..." That is going on.
So he was received very well, and when the Nawab Shah said... There was some topics, conversation with the minister and the Nawab. The minister wanted to resign, and Nawab Shah did not like that idea. So at last it was... Nawab Shah said that "If you whimsically, whimsically resign your responsible post, then I shall arrest you." At this order, Sanātana Gosvāmī replied that "If you think I shall be punished, I shall accept it, because you are God's representative. You are God's representative." So this was the idea of king and Nawab. Now, although he was Muhammadan and he was brāhmaṇa, but, so far the respect of a king is concerned, Sanātana Gosvāmī rightly told him that "You are Nawab. You are king. You are not ordinary man. Therefore you are empowered by the Supreme Lord. So anything you punish..." Because king's punishment has to be accepted. And in the Manu-saṁhitā it is said that when king punishes a citizen, he is reduced in his sinful actions so that he may not subjected in his next birth for that sinful reaction if he undergoes the punishment of a king.
So on account of this ignorance we are under the control of this material nature. Actually, due to our forgetfulness, due to our averseness to Kṛṣṇa, we are under the condition of this material nature. This is the sum and substance: due to our averseness. We don't like. Sei doṣe māyā-piśāci daṇḍa kare tāre. Daṇḍa kare tāre means "give him punishment." You have not seen... Perhaps... You had been in India. You have seen the Devī picture, picture of Goddess Durgā. She has got a..., what is called? Trisura, like this. Trident? Yes. This trident, she has got in her hand a trident.
Māyā is entrusted by Kṛṣṇa to take the conditioned souls and take charge of them. And māyā has taken charge of all us conditioned souls, and her task is to punish, simply beating. So that is a very thankless task. She is discharging the duty entrusted to her by Kṛṣṇa, but everyone, especially the transcendentalists, oh, they are hating, "Oh, māyā, māyā, māyā." Nobody will like, transcendentalists, māyā. Either personalist or impersonalist. But she's engaged. Just like police. Police is engaged by the state, but nobody likes police. Everyone will criticize police. Thankless task. Because they, unless they become strict, unless they become red-hot iron (?) they cannot execute their duty. That is their way of punishing. But people do not like them. Nobody likes police. You see. Even a police comes all of a sudden here to sit down here to hear us, we'll suspect, "Oh, he has come with some purpose." (laughs) It is such a thankless task. Similarly, māyā is entrusted with thankless task. She cannot approach Kṛṣṇa, neither she is liked by the conditioned souls.
So for them, to establish that there is God, it is very difficult. Therefore he adopted this means that "There is no separate God. We are all God. You are God, I am God." And a demonic person, if he is addressed, "Oh, you are God," oh, he becomes very happy because he does not become responsible to any higher authority. He becomes God. He can do anything. He can perform any nonsense. Nobody is going to punish him. It is very nice theory, that "I have become God. Because I have no more..." Suppose you yourself become the government of United States.
Sri Isopanisad Lectures
Just like good citizens, they are taken care of by the government directly, and the criminals, they are taken care of by the government through the prison department, through the criminal department. They are also taken care of. In the prison house the government takes care that the prisoners not in uncomfortable—they get sufficient food; if they're diseased they give hospital treatment—every care is there, but under punishment. Similarly, we in this material world, there is care certainly, but in, in a punishment way. If you do this, then slap. If you do this, then kick. If you do this, then this... This is going on. This is called threefold miseries. But under the spell of māyā we are thinking that this kicking of māyā, this slapping of māyā, this thrashing of māyā is very nice. You see? This is called māyā. And as soon as you get into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then Kṛṣṇa takes care of you.
Festival Lectures
So Kṛṣṇa says that mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Mṛtyu, death, takes away everything. Your education, title, M.A., Ph.D., D.A.C., your bank balance, millions of dollars, your good name, your house, your family, your friends, your country—all taken away. All taken away. So for atheist, this is God. When He'll take away everything, he'll understand, "Yes, there is God." Yes. Just like a civil disobedient person, when he's arrested and he's put into the bars and given severe punishment, then he understands, "Yes, there is government. There is government." So government is there. For a nice citizen, government is there. He's taking all advantage offered by the government and he's obeying the laws of the government. No trouble. But one who says "I don't care for the government. I am free. I shall become naked..." Just like that John Lennon. (chuckling) He exposed himself naked, and government stopped immediately, that "You cannot do this."
Hiraṇyakaśipu became bitterest enemy of Viṣṇu because his brother Hiranyakṣa, he was killed by Viṣṇu taking the shape of Varāha. You know the story. Since then, Hiraṇyakaśipu was bitterest enemy. "Oh, He has, Viṣṇu has killed my brother. So He is my greatest enemy." So he won't hear anything about Viṣṇu. Any Viṣṇu devotee, he will punish him, even his own son. That was his policy.
So Kṛṣṇa says that He is the proprietor of all planets, sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). Therefore whatever there is, either in the sky or in the water or in the land, they're all Kṛṣṇa's property. And because we are all sons of Kṛṣṇa, therefore every one of us has the right to use (the) father's property. But we should not encroach upon others. This is the formula of peace. Mā gṛdha kasya svidhanam, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God. You are sons of God. You have got the right to use father's property, but do not take more than you need. That is punishable.
So when he came back, his wife became very much disturbed that "You arrested Viṣṇu, and we are all going to die. We have got now high fever." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura replied, "Yes, let us all die, but this rascal must be punished." This is the view of pure devotee. So he was put into the custody. And there was a date fixed for his trial, and all these days Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura himself and his family especially, they were suffering from high fever. Maybe that yogi was planning to kill the whole family. But it was going on as fever. So on the trial day, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Kedāranātha Datta, when he came to the bench the man was presented, the so-called yogi, and he had big, big hairs. So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura ordered that "Bring one barber and cut his hair." So no barber dared. The barbers thought, "Oh, he's a Lord Viṣṇu. If I offend, as he's suffering from fever, so I shall also die." So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura ordered that "Give me the scissor. I'll cut." So he cut his hairs and ordered him to be put into jail for six months, and in the jail that Viṣṇu incarnation managed to take some poison, and he died.
So this is one of the incidents. There are many incidences. He was very strong man. He punished many paṇḍas in the tīrthas who exploit visitors. So, this is the position of devotee.
So suppose he does not know, he drives the car on the left side and incurs some accident, and he is taken by the police custody. And if he says, "Sir, I did not know that here the car is driven from the right side," that does not make him excused. The law will punish him. So ignorance is the cause of breaking the law or sinful activities. And as soon as you commit some sinful activity, you have to suffer the result. So the whole world is in ignorance, and due to ignorance he's complicated in so many actions and reactions, either good or bad. There is nothing good within this material world; everything is bad.
The śāstra says, you should not steal-an example. But I am stealing. Why? Na kāmādīnāṁ katidha na katidhā pālitā durnideśa. I know I should not steal; therefore I go to somebody's house very secretly, or push my hand very secretly in one's pocket. I know that I should not do this, but I am forced to do it. Why? I am dictated by my lusty desire. So I am become servant of my six senses. Manaḥ saṣṭhanīndriyāni prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). This is our position. Na manina kulya... Everyone knows. A thief knows if he commits theft he'll be punished, either by the police or by the laws of God. Everyone knows, but he still commits theft. Why? He is dictated by the lusty desires.
So recently... I am very pleased to say that our Harikeśa, I ordered him to go immediately to Poland, and he thought that he was being punished. That was... No. I was thinking that "Here is a very very intelligent boy. If he is given chance to preach he'll come out very successful." So I see the glimpses that he has got now post. He's a very good organizer. That's a chance. At that time he might have thought that I was separating him. No. My good will was there that he should be given chance for better opportunity. So I am very much happy that he is doing there very nice. So this should be the attitude. My Guru Mahārāja wanted me to preach in the Western countries, although I was at that time a ordinary manager in a chemical firm. I never thought, but I took it seriously.
So similarly, because he has become the horse of his grandchild, he is not horse, he is enjoying. That is enjoyment. Similarly when keśava dhṛta-śūkara-rūpa or kesava dhṛta-varāha-rūpa does not mean that He is varāha, or He is crocodile, or He is something like... No. He's everything. But that is not by karma. When we become crocodile, that is karma, punishment. We are now human being. It may be next life I become a crocodile according to karma, be forced by the laws of nature. Just like in Honolulu, Hawaii, we see so many young boys, they are enjoying, they are surfing in the middle of the ocean, struggling. So our karma, if you are practiced to that way, then at the time of death I shall think of just, in the middle ocean, swimming and struggling, then Kṛṣṇa will give opportunity to become a aquatic. Very easily we can remain within the water. That is the laws of nature. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6).
If you go on the street, you'll find "Keep to the left." There is no question of faith. You must keep on the left; otherwise you are criminal, you'll be punished. That is dharma. The real meaning is this, that dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19), The laws given by God. That is the simple definition of dharma.
So if we don't accept the dharma, then we'll be punished. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Dharmasya asya. Aśraddadhānāḥ. "If I have no faith in the words of God..." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Kṛṣṇa is saying, "If you do not become devotee, if you do not think of Kṛṣṇa, then you will not get Kṛṣṇa."
Arrival Addresses and Talks
That will be right punishment for him. Then he will understand. That will be more than death. Yes. Politicians, if they are refused political seat, that is more than death. Just like Kṛṣṇa was advising Arjuna that "You are known as a great hero, and if you don't fight then they will blaspheme you like anything. So that will be more than death. Better die. When they will say nindanti, 'Oh, the Arjuna has become a coward. He could not fight. He will die.' So that blaspheme will be more than death."
No. Caraṇe sarve varṇe kaye (?). A thief, if you speak to him, "My dear Mr. Thief, it is not very good work. You will be arrested. You will be punished. Why you are taking this risk?" so will he give up stealing? He knows himself, "Yes, I will be arrested and punished, but still I shall do." This is ignorance.
Then everything will come automatically. Kṛṣṇa is supplying already. Just like government. When a man is put into the jail for his criminality, the government takes care of his food, of his shelter; if he's sick, hospital, everything—but he's still punished for correction. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa will give us food, shelter, sex facility and defense everywhere.
So what is your independence? You cannot violate a little portion of the laws of nature. So many. In every step. As soon as you violate, immediately there is punishment. And still, we are declaring independence. Asatyam. What is that? Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Find out. Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad ahur anīśvaram. "There is no God." Why you say there is no...? You are under control. There is a controller; otherwise, how you are under control? So this foolishness must be stopped in order to make them happy, really happy.
Initiation Lectures
Thank you. Come on. Be happy. Bali-mardana dāsa. B-a-l-i m-a-r-d-a-n. Bali-mardana dāsa brahmacārī. Bali-mardana means Kṛṣṇa's name. Kṛṣṇa, as Vāmanadeva, he punished Bali Mahārāja by capturing his whole kingdom. Mardana means punishment. And after all, Bali Mahārāja became an authority because he showed the example of surrendering everything, sarvātma-snapane, even his body. First of all he gave his kingdom. Then, when it was not finished, then Kṛṣṇa demanded Vāmanadeva that "You have finished all your kingdom. Still you are debtor for one step, another. Where shall I keep another step?" So Bali Mahārāja said, "Yes. I have got still place on my head. You can place Your step on my head." So he delivered his kingdom, his everything, at last his body, and Kṛṣṇa became purchased by him. And since then, Bali Mahārāja is one of the twelve authorities.
So Bali is... Bali-mardana does not mean that he was... Because he was punished by Kṛṣṇa, he is not ordinary person; he is authority. So even a person punished by Kṛṣṇa becomes authority. Kṛṣṇa is so nice. What to speak of a person who is directly loved by Kṛṣṇa, even one is punished by Kṛṣṇa, he becomes authority. So therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Bali-mardana. And Bali-mardana dāsa means Kṛṣṇa dāsa, one who is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Is that clear? Yes.
They said that "This tree is standing for seven thousand years." They stand up on the bench for seven thousand years. The boys are sometimes punished by the teachers in the school, "Stand up on the bench." So these trees are punished, "Stand up," by nature's law. So there is chance of becoming a tree, there is chance of becoming a dog, a cat, or even a rat. So many lives there are. Don't miss this opportunity of human form of life. Perfect your love of Kṛṣṇa and be happy in this life and next life.
Just like a man steals. He knows that stealing is not good, but he wants to satisfy some sense; therefore he is committing stealing also. Therefore he is mad. He knows that "If I am arrested for this stealing or committing this offense, I'll be punished. I may be hanged or..." There are so many things. But still, because he is mad after some sense gratification, he commits such sinful activities. This is practical. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Vikarma means the actions which we should not have done. Why? Yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti. Indriya, indriya means sense. Prītaya means satisfaction. Simply for the satisfaction of the senses. If one is philosopher, he can understand, "Why we should be so much busy for sense gratification?" Now we can give one example. Everyone is trying, working hard for his sense gratification. Nobody is trying... Suppose if I say that "I want to satisfy my senses in this way. Will you kindly work for it?" Nobody will... "Oh, why I shall work for you? You can work for your own satisfaction." Nobody will.
So your name is Romaharṣaṇa. Romaharṣaṇa was a great learned scholar for explaining Vedic literature. But once upon a time he committed some offense. In a great meeting he was speaking about Vedic hymns, and Balarāma, He entered that sacrificial arena. So all the sages and brāhmaṇas and everyone stood up. This Romaharṣaṇa did not. So Balarāma punished him, killed him. But although he was killed, but he got salvation and he was recognized. But, he... It was an example that we should be always very careful about offering respects to the Supreme Lord. He was sitting on the vyāsāsana. Vyāsāsana, one who is sitting on the vyāsāsana, if somebody comes, he does not require to offer respect.
Viṣṇugadā. You know Viṣṇu has got the club? Śaṅkha cakra gadā padma. Gadā, the club. So you are that. You have to punish all the demons.
Then you are excused, there is a... "That's all right." But if you are excused and again come back and again do the same sinful activities, criminal activities, and if you are again arrested, then you'll be very, very severely punished. It is a common sense. How people think that "Because I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or I take the holy name of God or I go to church, therefore I can commit so much sins, never mind. It will be counteracted next week or next moment when I shall chant." This is one of the gravest offense in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. You should always remember. By this initiation, by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, your sinful activities will be counteracted, undoubtedly. But don't commit again. Then it will be the gravest offense. There are ten kinds of offenses. You should be careful. You have got those printed papers? Ten kinds of offenses? Yes, you take. This is a fact. Yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ sa bahyābhyantaraḥ śuciḥ. As soon as you chant the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, you become relieved from all reaction of sinful activities.
So instead of loving God, they have learned to love dog. But nature ways is that you have to forget loving dog, you have to come to the position to love God. That is nature's way. Therefore there is no freedom. There is no freedom. Just like a citizen becomes criminal. The criminal department, the prison, just to correct him: "Unless you become a good citizen, you'll have to be punished in this prison house." Similarly, our real position is to love God, to love Kṛṣṇa. Unless we are on that platform of loving God, the nature will give us trouble. There is no freedom. We should try to understand it. There's no question of freedom.
Suppose I have stolen something from your pocket and I become conscious, "Oh, this stealing is not good," so as soon as I return unto you, "Please take this money; I was mistaken," so thing is settled up. But if you hold it, then you are criminal. You will be punished. Similarly, everyone who is holding Kṛṣṇa's money, not returning to Kṛṣṇa, he is a criminal. He will be punished. How they are punished? That you have seen. In India, in recent... Everywhere, the same thing is going on. There was war between Pakistan and India.
General Lectures
You are belonging to an independent state, but that does not mean that you can do anything and everything. You have no such independence. There is state law and order. Similarly, as in the state we are independent citizens, but if we violate law and order, then we shall be punished. It is very simple thing. But the rascal civilization, they say God is dead. How God can be dead? The law of God are acting so nicely. How God can be dead? That means he wanted to forget God, so he has come to the conclusion, "God is dead." He has come to this conclusion. While, on the other hand, who wants God, they are perfectly visioning that "Next life I am going to meet God face to face." This intelligence is given to him by God also. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Yes, certainly. The police force, are they not honest servant of the government? Does it mean the police force tortures you; therefore they're rejected from the government servant? Their task is thankless task, that's all. Similarly, Māyā is also serving Kṛṣṇa, but there is no thanks. That is the difference. She has taken a thankless task to punish persons who are godless, that's all. So Māyā as it is, it is not that she is out of touch of Kṛṣṇa. Vaiṣṇavī. In the Caṇḍī, in the book of Māyā, it is state that "Vaiṣṇavī." The Māyā is described as Vaiṣṇavī. Just like pure devotee is called Vaiṣṇava, she is also described there as Vaiṣṇavī.
Just like the same example that one man is seeing practically that one who has committed something criminal, he is punished. And he has heard it also from authorities, from lawyers or from respectable gentlemen, that "If you commit such and such sinful activities... If you steal, then you will be imprisoned for six months. If you cheat, you'll be imprisoned for such and such period. If you commit murder, then you'll be hanged." These things are taught some way or other. Either in religious scripture or by lawbooks or by morality or ethical principle, they are taught to the human, civilized human society. And he sees also practically that "This man has committed this kind of criminality, and he is punished." And again why does he commit? That is the problem. So kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. Kāma and krodha. Kāma means desire, lust. Kāma. And when the desire or lust is not fulfilled, then there is krodha. Krodha means anger. There are so many cases of criminality, when the lust is not fulfilled, one commits some criminal action and he is punished and so many things happen.
Just like at night we cannot see, but in daytime we see. But seeing is not all. Unless I am convinced of something, even seeing... Just the same example: one man is seeing that a criminal person is punished; still he is committing criminal act.
So Śukadeva Gosvāmī's question is that suppose a man commits some sinful activities and he executes some atonement. In atone... This atonement is prescribed in every religion... (child sounds in background) (aside:) This is disturbing. Attention is diverted. Yes. So just like in the Christian church, they have the atonement process, confession. So suppose if you go weekly in the church and confess your sinful activities and it is excused, but again, next week you again commit the same sinful activities.
Please excuse me. I shall not do it again." "All right. Excused." But if on the third time again he commits the sin, what the father and the teacher will do? He will slap him. Yes. Just to teach him, "Nonsense. I have warned you twice, thrice, and again you are doing that? No more excuse. Now punishment." This is natural. So if I go to God, if I go and confess, "Father, God, Supreme Father, I have done these sinful activities. I am confessing," "All right." The father excuses. If you make it a business, that "I shall do it and confess," then what will be the result? The result will be punishment. That is natural consequence. So people should come to the understanding that "These sinful activities I shall not do." But he is forced to do, impelled by the quality of passion and ignorance. That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā. Why does he so, as if being forced by some agent? That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā that rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. Kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ.
The purport is that those who are vegetarian, they are thinking that "We are better than the nonvegetarian." But it is not the fact. Either you eat vegetables or nonvegetable, you are liable to be punished because you are accepting something without offering to the supplier. That is the law. We must acknowledge at least that "This foodstuff is supplied by the Supreme Lord, and we are obliged to Him." In Christian Bible also, they pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." So one should accept that it is supplied by God. So if one does not even accept this obligation, then he is sinful, certainly. So, yajñarthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ.
The demonic state... Just like a citizen of this state is part and parcel. A citizen expected to render service to the state, but if he refuses, then he's considered a traitor or a criminal and is put into punishment. Similarly, all the living entities who are in this material world, they have rebelled. They are part and parcel, sons of the Lord, but they have refused to give service under certain condition. It may be... And they are all put into this material world. And in this material world there are different varieties of living entities.
So how can you treat others as not your brother? They are also your brother. Even the ant is also your brother. He is in a different class of imprisonment, that's all. A different body. The ant has got also the same punishment—birth, death, old age and disease—as you have got. You are also criminal; he is also criminal. But he is also son of God; you are also son of God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54), as soon as he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he becomes joyful because he has no more enemy. "Everyone is my brothers." Therefore he has no fear. If I become enemy to you, you become my enemy. If I am friendly to you, you are my friend. So a Kṛṣṇa conscious person does not see anyone as something other than son of God. He sees not that only this, this person, is son of God and that person is not son of God.
They have been derived. And śastra. Śastra means weapons, armaments. That is called śastra. Just like sword, guns, they are called śastra. These two things are rulings. The state has got lawbooks, authoritative books, and one who does not obey the lawbooks, then the next word is gun and sword. This, these two words, means to accept authority. So śiṣya means one who accepts the authority of the spiritual master. He voluntarily accepts the rulings or the punishment of the spiritual master. That is called śiṣya. One voluntarily agrees to the spiritual master... This initiation is going on. This is the beginning of voluntary acceptance of the spiritual master. That means he agrees that he will abide by the orders of the spiritual master.
Suicide is killing the body. What is that explanation? Untimely. Untimely. Suicide means that you were given some body to suffer or enjoy for a certain time according to your last fruitive activities. Now, if you commit suicide, that is just like a prisoner is condemned to live in the prisonhouse for six months, but some way or other, if he gets out of the prison, when he is again caught, then he is punished to remain there for one year more. Suicide is like that. You are having a particular type of body that is given to you for enjoyment or suffering according to your last work. If you finish it untimely, then you have to accept such body again, and the duration will be extended.
That means "Whatever disciplinary action You will ask me to follow, I shall do it." This is called śiṣya. The word śiṣya comes from the word, Sanskrit word, sas-dhātu, means to rule over, sas-dhātu. So ruling by instruction, ruling by laws, and ruling by force, weapon. There are three kinds of ruling. If instruction fails, then evidences from lawbooks. And when that also fails, then force. That is the whole arrangement everywhere. The instruction is that you should not kill. But if you violate, then according to law you are arrested. If you still violate, then you are punished in so many ways by force. As this is going on in our ordinary life, the same thing is going on by God's will also. The kingdom of God... Here is also kingdom of God, and there is another, spiritual sky. That is also kingdom of God.
God is giving facility to become one of His associates. (indistinct). So, nobody is seeking after God. When you will seek after God, God is situated within your heart, He will give you all facility. And so long you want to become God, you will be cheated, because you are trying to cheat yourself. How you can become God? First thing is that, you are trying to become God, then how you became a dog? God cannot become a dog. God is always God. The Māyāvādī philosopher says that "I am God, but I am, by māyā, I am thinking I am not God. So by meditation I shall become God." But that means he is under the punishment of māyā. So, God has become under the influence of māyā. How is it that? God is great, and if he is under the influence of māyā, then māyā becomes great.
If you resign, then I shall be in great danger. I cannot accept your resignation." Then he said, "Your majesty, I am sorry. I cannot proceed any more. I shall retire from the service." Then Nawab said that "Then I shall punish you. I shall immediately arrest you. I cannot let you go." The answer of Sanātana Gosvāmī was that "You are king, representative of Nārāyaṇa, so whatever punishment you give, I shall accept." So that was the Hindu culture, that in spite of being punished by the king, he accepts the king as the representative of Nārāyaṇa. And actually, the Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, He is the proprietor of everything. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the proprietor of... Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Therefore, to govern a planet there is representative of Kṛṣṇa. In the heavenly planets there is Indra. In the sun planet there is Vivasvān. In the Brahmaloka there is Lord Brahmā. Similarly, there are different planets and different representative of Kṛṣṇa.
My dear boy, you have brought a scar amongst the brāhmaṇa society by cursing a king like Mahārāja Parīkṣit." So Mahārāja Parīkṣit was protected by Kṛṣṇa. He could counteract it, but still, he tolerated that punishment or the curse given by a brāhmaṇa boy. He immediately resigned from his royal throne, handing over the charge to his son. And he retired on the bank of the Ganges although he had only seven days' time to live. And during those seven days the whole Bhāgavata was recited. So, I mean to say, the royal family has got very intimate relationship with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And as soon as that was broken, because sometimes it breaks, the religious process declined and the royal power also declined. That is the whole history of the world.
The Supreme Personality of Godhead is sitting in your heart along with you as friend and witnessing what you are doing. And if you are desiring unlimited sex life and unlimited eating without any restriction, then Kṛṣṇa gives you... Because the human society, it is not possible. There are so many restrictions even from social laws, political laws. But animal life, there is no restriction. Anyone can have sex life—the dogs and hogs on the street in open place—because they are animals. There is no law. But a human being, if he does so, then he is punishable. So why? Because human being. All the laws, all the books, are meant for human being. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, anādir bahir mukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela, ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karila. Why these Vedas and Purāṇas and the Vedic literature there? It is for human beings, not for the cats and dogs.
He is coming from Vaikuṇṭha, from Vṛndāvana, to teach us how you can become friend of Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana, how you can become mother of Kṛṣṇa, how you can become father of Kṛṣṇa. Here the jñānīs, they try to be equal with Kṛṣṇa, but a devotee can become the father of Kṛṣṇa. What is the value of equality? It is greater than equality. Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He accepts His devotee as father and He accepts his punishment also. Just like Kṛṣṇa accepted the punishment of Mother Yaśodā very willfully. He wants that. He likes that. Because everyone goes to God, Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu, and prays with adoration and respect. But Kṛṣṇa wants that one may think of Him as inferior to him. Just like Nanda Mahārāja was thinking, "He is my child, have to protect." Kṛṣṇa is giving protection to everyone, but Nanda Mahārāja is thinking that "I have to give protection to Kṛṣṇa."
"If anyone surrenders unto Me, then he can get rid of this influence of the material nature." This is the law. You cannot artificially change it. If you do not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, if you do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, God, then the māyā, or the material energy, will always give you trouble. The triṣu, three kinds of miserable conditions. The trident you have seen. The trident in the hand of Goddess Durgā, and she is punishing the demons with the trident on the chest. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has said, viṣaya-viṣānale dibā-niśi hiyā jvale. Our heart is always burning on account of this material condition, threefold miseries of material life: adhyātmika, adhibhautika, and adhidaivika. Viṣaya-viṣānale dibā-niśi hiyā jvale juṛāite nā koinu upāya. "I did not make any attempt how to get out of it." Golokera prema-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana rati nā janmila kene tāya. "Unfortunately, I could not develop my attachment for Kṛṣṇa or His name, which is the only process to get out of this anxieties of material existence."
That is called austerity, penance. The human life is meant for austerity and penance, not for increasing the items of our sense gratification. That is animal life. Human life is meant for restraint. Laws are for the human being. When you go to the street—"Keep to the left"—this law is meant for human being, not for the dog. The dogs can go from left to right; he has no punishment. But if you go from left to right, violating the rules or violating the color, symbol, signal, then you will be immediately arrested because you are human being. So all the laws or injunctions are for human being. So human being, human life, is very responsible life. As you cannot violate the state law, similarly, you cannot violate the laws given by God. That is called dharma. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the laws of God. If you violate, then you are punished. That's all. All right.
Just like here also, if we say, "I don't care for the government." Then what will be? So treason act. I'll be arrested, I'll be punished. Similarly, living entities are originally part and parcel of God. Just like father and son. The Christian people also understand, God is Supreme Father and we are all His sons. You go to church and pray, "God, give us our daily bread." Father. So that is conception in Bhagavad-gītā also. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am father of all living entities." Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.
God inspiration comes for every work. That's a fact. But we deny... Just like... You take this simple exam, example. Just like a thief. From within, he's forbidden: "Don't commit theft." But he does it. He does it. You have got all experience about these things. God says from within, "Don't do it," but we do it. That is the defect of without being Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like a thief. He knows that for his criminal activities he'll be punished.
Ghost means he has got no gross body, but he's working with the subtle body. We have got two kinds of bodies. The gross body is made of five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky. And the subtle body is made of intelligence, mind and ego. So when a soul does not get a gross body, he has to work with the subtle body, that is ghostly life. So ghostly life is not false. Those who are too, too much sinful, sometimes they are condemned not to get a gross body. Just like if a man commits suicide. So nature gave him this gross body. He misused it. Therefore he's punished sometimes not to get again gross body. He becomes ghost.
So... Or the supreme authority. Supreme means the greatest authority. As in a state the greatest authority is the government, similarly, throughout the cosmic manifestation, throughout the whole creation, there must be some supreme authority. So that supreme authority is God, and whatever He gives, the rules and regulation, that is called religion. You cannot change it. That the law whimsically, you cannot change. Then you will be punishable. Similarly, the laws or the words (are) of the regulative principles given by God. That is religion. And if you do not follow it, then you'll be punished.
The cats and dogs or other animals, big, big animals, they have no sense what is the law of God, what is God, how to execute that. That is not expected there. Take, for example, in your country, the law is "Keep to the left" while you drive your car. That is the order of the state. But if you do not obey the state order, instead of driving on the left side, if you drive on the right side, you immediately become a criminal, punishable. But the same right and left consideration, if a dog or a cat or a cow violates, instead of going on the left side, if he passes—he has no fault. He's animal. He's animal.
So you cannot be godless. If you become godless, if you become without religion, if you become without any intentions to abide by the orders of God, then you will be punished. This is nature's law. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā we learn that daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Every one of us is serving under the order of māyā, illusory energy, material energy, and we are becoming tired, sometimes very much fatigued, every one of us. Nobody is satisfied, cannot be satisfaction. Because in the prison house you cannot expect any comfortable life. That is not possible because it is meant for reformation, and there is punishment, and there is injunction. You have to abide by that. Similarly, in this material world also, all of us, we are prisoners because actually we have disobeyed the orders of God. That is our position.
Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is dharma. We have created so many dharmas or duties, so-called duties, social duty, political duty, humanitarian duty, so many. But we are violating God. So many humanitarians, philanthropists, they are thinking of good welfare for the human being, but they are not thinking any welfare for the poor animals. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse under some plea. So they are all punishable because every living being is the son of the Supreme Person. Bhagavad-gītā says. We also address the Supreme Being, God, as "Father."
Then according to the God's law, you become criminal, you are punishable. That is God's law. (break) It is a common sense. You eat; I eat. It is a common philosophy. So I must eat what I need and you must eat what you need. That's not a very big philosophical problem. Everyone knows what you eat. But don't eat more. Suppose I can eat so much. And if I eat more, then I get indigestion. That is the punishment of the laws of nature. I get dysentery. Then I'll have to starve for three days because I've eaten more. So yuktāhāra-vihārasya yoga bhavati siddhitaḥ. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said if you want to be a yogi or spiritualist, you should not take more than what you can digest, what can you eat. Yuktāhāra. You can satisfy your hunger, but according to yogic principle. Or from health point of view, even if you can eat so much, you can understand that "I can eat so much," you should not eat the whole thing. You should eat half. And one fourth you shall fill up with water, and one fourth you should leave vacant so that there may be ventilation, your digestion will be easily done. This is Āyurvedic law. Even if you think that you can eat so much, you should not voluntarily eat so much. You should eat half, and one-fourth you should fill up with water, and one-fourth you keep vacant for air ventilation. Then there will be no disease. It is hygienic principle. And as soon as you eat more than what you can digest, you become diseased. That means you are punished. Similarly, in every action you can have your portion as you need, but don't take more. Then it is helpful to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yuktāhāra vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhi.
Vedic knowledge means perfect knowledge. There is no (indistinct) who can calculate how many forms of life are within the ocean. But from the Vedic literature you get just exact conclusion—900,000 species of life. The botanists, they cannot say how many forms of trees and plants are there. But in the Vedas you'll find sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati—2,000,000's forms of life, of trees and plants. Sthāvara. Sthāvara means the living entities which cannot move, stand in one place. This is a punishment, those who are too much dull. Means..., dull means cannot understand what is God. That is dullness. Otherwise for eating, sleeping, sex life and defense there is no need of university education. Nobody goes to the university to learn how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy sex life and how to defend. There is no education required, because these four kinds of bodily necessities of life are known even to the animals. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhir narāṇām.
You may not like, sir, but if you do not follow you will be punished. (boos and yells) Anyway, if you do not follow the codes and laws of the state or God, then certainly you will be punished. (yelling) You may declare independence, but there is no, I mean, the possibility of such independence. That requires knowledge.
This is knowledge. Similarly, there are three kinds of infection, modes of material nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. So ignorance is no excuse. If in the law court you say, "My lord, I did not know that by stealing one is punished," that, the magistrate or the judge, will not excuse you. The law, even this material law, is so strict, and you can imagine how much strict are stringent laws of the nature. So this is the material life, that knowingly or unknowingly we are infecting a particular type of modes of material nature, and our next body is being created. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Sad-asad life, there are different varieties of life, 8,400,000 varieties of forms. So why there are different forms of life, different standard of life? Why? The answer is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kāraṇam, the reason, is guṇa-saṅgaḥ, his particular infection with a particular quality of material nature.
The same fault. Either you kill animal or plant, the same sin is there just like if you kill an uncivilized and if you kill a big man, the punishment is the same, hanging. You cannot say that "I have killed one uncivilized man." No. That you cannot do. Similarly, you cannot kill even plant. But we have to live. Therefore we can kill plant under the order of the Supreme. Just like I have already explained. Kṛṣṇa said, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Patraṁ means plant. So Kṛṣṇa wants it. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we can do that. Just like Arjuna did. Arjuna did not like to kill his brothers, but Kṛṣṇa said that "This is My desire." "All right, I shall kill." This is Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. When Kṛṣṇa says, we can do everything, not for our personal self.
So people do not know. They manufacture religion. So how you can manufacture religion? Law can be given by the king, by the state, by the government. If you manufacture some law at your home, consulting your wife or father and mother, who will accept it? Nobody will accept. You may be puffed up that you have manufactured a law, but nobody will care for it. The law given by the state will have to be accepted, either you like it or don't like it. The law will not depend on your liking and disliking. You must accept. If you don't accept, then you are a law breaker; you will be punished. Similarly, the religion means, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad..., sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is religion, that "You have manufactured so many types of religion.
First of all, we have to know what is pāpa. Just like in ordinary way, in ignorance we commit something unlawful. Just like in this country it is said, "Keep to the left," and some other country it is said that "Keep to the right." Say, Americans, they "Keep to the right." Now, in this country, if instead of keeping to the left, if he keeps to the right, then he becomes punishable. So this is due to ignorance. So pāpa means in ignorance. So if you become in knowledge, there is no more pāpa. So if you understand what is God, what you are, what is your relationship with God, and if you act accordingly, there is no pāpa. This is pāpa-nirvāṇa, no more pāpa.
So we can see practically that these things are there, so many different varieties of life. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ. They are all living entities. Aquatics, nine hundred thousand forms of life within the water, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, everything accurate. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati, the trees, plants, they are standing, sthavara. That is very great punishment. Those who are very, very sinful, they have to take birth as trees and plants and stand up for thousands of years. Material nature's punishment. A small ant, it can move, but a big tree cannot move. That is punishment. Just like in our childhood we were being punished by the teachers, "Stand up on the bench." So it is like that.
Duṣkṛtina means one who has got brain, but the brain is utilized for mischievous activities. And one becomes sinful, mischievous, on account of his foolishness. He does not know by mischievous activities he would be punished. This is going on by the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Māyā is very strong. For all our mischievous activities we are being punished. Māyā is punishing us by giving different forms of body.
Philosophy Discussions
Prabhupāda: This is called durgā. And the superintendent is called Durgā. From durgā it has come to Durgā. She is also confidential maidservant of Kṛṣṇa, but she has got (indistinct) to punish these demons. Demon is (indistinct), that I worship his mother, but mother is engaged to punish him because (indistinct). She is giving whatever the demon wants. "Give me money. Give me good wife. Give me reputation. Give me strength." "All right," but at the same time everything is frustrated with this (indistinct). Two things are going on. One thing, that whatever he wants he is given: "I will get it." On the other side, punishment. This is nature's flow, and she is doing this under the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. "This living entity, he has, or he wants immediately to become an enjoyer, so give him all sources of material enjoyment, but at the same time go on punishing him."
Prabhupāda: So one man is thinking that animal killing is good, and another man is thinking animal killing is immorality. Then who is correct? Unless you know morality means this—it is coming from authority—that you have to follow it, otherwise you will be punished, then morality. Otherwise, if there is no background of forcing, that morality can be degraded into immorality at any moment.
Śyāmasundara: He says that there are three basic rights. The first is property rights; the second is the right of contract; the third right is the right of redress of wrongs; in the sense that crimes should be punished.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is not crime to kill an animal? The animal has no right to live independently?
Śyāmasundara: They say that the standard of what is right is the universal or the rational will...
Prabhupāda: Is that rational, that another living entity like me should be killed for my benefit, for satisfying my tongue?
Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that the animal is not in the same category as myself because it has no...
Prabhupāda: So that's alright; then might is right? Hitler is right? When Hitler, Hitler kills the Jews, he's right? He thinks that they are not in my category.
Śyāmasundara: He says that punishment for crime is justified because it vindicates justice and restores rights.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore when one is killing an animal, he should be prepared for being killed. That will be justice. That is Manu's... Manu-saṁhitā says that when a man, murderer is hanged, that is complete justice, complete justice. That is to save him, because without being hanged in this life, he if he escapes justice, then he will have to suffer next life very severely. So to save him from so many troubles in the next life, if he is killed, I mean to say, hanged, in this life, then he is saved. Therefore the king who is hanging him is doing him justice. Life for life. If this is the justice, then why one should not be prepared of being killed because he is killing an animal? That is justice. That is Vedic philosophy. In Vedic philosophy, when an animal is killed, it is said that "You are animal, you are being sacrificed before goddess Kālī, so you get next chance to become a human being." That means he is given a lift from the evolutionary process to come to the human being because he is giving his life innocent, and one man wants to kill him, he will be killed. So because you are being killed before the deity, you get next chance human being and you have got the right to kill him. This is kālī-da, mantra. So any sane man will understand that "I am going to be killed by him so why shall I take the risk."
Śyāmasundara: But we can't predict that the process of punishment will have permanent effect, can we? Can we predict that? Many prisoners leave the prison, but some come back.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing as permanent. You can misuse your independence at any time.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He is the supreme power. He can do that. So if somebody wants to forget Kṛṣṇa persistently—in spite of Kṛṣṇa's instruction, devotee's instruction, one does not care, he persists to become a demon—Kṛṣṇa is within the heart of everyone, so He gives him chance to become more and more so that he completely forgets his relationship with God. That is explained in another place, kṣipāmy ajasram anta yoniṣu. In the Sixteenth Chapter. (aside:) You can find out. So that this rascal, life after life, remains a rascal. That is Kṛṣṇa's punishment, that he is kept in perpetual darkness. But it is the mercy of Kṛṣṇa's devotee, a Vaiṣṇava, he is more compassionate, that "This rascal, he is in perpetual darkness.
Prabhupāda: They will be punished to forget God, forget. He wants to forget, so apohanaṁ ca, mattaḥ... The brain is there, but Kṛṣṇa wants that this rascal should be punished to forget God. Then he will be punished more by the material nature, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī (BG 7.14). Māyā's business is to punish the demon, so māyā keeps him in demonic life so that he may be punished more and more. And Kṛṣṇa gives intelligence to a devotee, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). One who is engaged in devotional service, trying sincerely, from within He is giving instruction, "Do like this. Do like this."
Prabhupāda: But then how long it will stay? To come to the test, that it will not stay. Suppose one has decided that I have learned how to cheat others so you can cheat for some time to all men or all men or some men for some time but you cannot... You'll be caught, you'll be captured as a cheater. Then you will be punished. So the duration is not permanent. The test is duration.
Śyāmasundara: Someone might raise the point, "Well, the man is hungry and he has no food, therefore in order to feel pleasure he must steal it and cause displeasure to someone else." But this Bentham says that there are four natural curves or preventions, preventative forces to keep people from egoistic over-indulgence. One is the physical consequences of over-indulgence. If I eat too much, I get sick. One is political, that I will be imprisoned if I transgress. I will be punished. One is moral, or popular opinion, the public will think badly of me if I over-indulge. And the fourth one is religious, that God will punish me if I am an evil-doer. These four preventions he says, keep us from over-indulging in pleasure.
Prabhupāda: But if there is some happiness, why there is no prevention. That is real happiness. There is no prevention, simply go on increasing.
Śyāmasundara: Indulging.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa's happiness, there was no prevention. So that is real happiness. Prevention means material, limited. Just like drinking liquor. There is prevention also. There are no-alcoholic beer. You have seen the signboard? That is prevention.
Prabhupāda: No some signboard, you cannot drink even, sitting on their bench. I have seen in New York so many places. So alcohol is very nice happiness, but there is prevention. In your country, the prevention is not so strong. In our country it is very... If one is caught in drunken state, immediately he is taken to the police. Immediately. He is punished. You cannot come on the road in a drunken state. No. You are found in drunken state on the road, you are liable to be arrested. You do everything in your home. Well, in most cities drinking is private.
Prabhupāda: In Bombay. It was prohibited area. So Gandhi made this prohibition as far as possible. Now they are lifting. Because simply prohibition will not help you. Unless you have got a better engagement, this prohibition will not help you. By law you can say, "Don't do this," but if you have no better engagement, this order of the law, "Don't do this," will not act. Will not act. Just like government, your government is trying to stop this intoxication. They could not. It is increasing. But so far our society is concerned, anyone who is coming here, immediately there is no intoxication. That means he gets something better. Therefore he voluntarily checks himself. And it is possible to check. So unless you give better thing, simply by prohibition you cannot check. That is not possible. The same example again, just like a thief, he knows the prohibitive order that you shall not steal. He knows the prohibitive order even in śāstra, that if a man is a thief he will suffer this kind of hellish condition. So he has heard it from the lawyer and from the śāstra that stealing is not good and he has seen it that a thief is arrested and is punished but still he does it. But a Kṛṣṇa conscious person will not do it. That is the difference. So by law or by pressure you cannot make anyone moral. That's not possible. He has to be given something which is better than morality, then he will stop committing all kinds of sins.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Providence desires only good. The man, the living being, is in this material world on account of his imperfect will. God is very kind that even though he is willing imperfectly to enjoy this material world God is giving him a directed facilities. Just like a child wants to play in certain way, still the child is guided by some nurse, or some servant by, engaged by the parent. So our position is like that. We have come to this material world to enjoy, giving up the company of God. So God has allowed him, "All right, you enjoy and experience. When you will experience that this material enjoyment is not good, then you will again come back." So He is guiding the enjoyment of the living being, especially of the human being so that he may again come back to home, back to Godhead. And nature is the via media agent, under the instruction of God. So if he (is) too much addicted to misuse the freedom, then he is punished, and that is also according to his desire. It is not God's desire that a human being become a pig, but he develops such mentality to eat everything.
Prabhupāda: No. God, evil is created by God undoubtedly, but the, it was necessary on account of the human being as, misuse of his free will. God gives him good direction but when he is disobedient, then naturally the evil power is there to punish him. Therefore the evil is not created by God but still it is created. It is necessary. Just like the government constructs the prison house. So this prison house creation is not the government's intention. Government wants that university is sufficient, people may be educated and highly enlightened, but because some, not all, misuses the independence, little independence, he creates evil circumstances, and he is compulsorily put into the prison house. Similarly, we suffer on account of our own evil activities but God, being Supreme, He punishes us for our evil activities. For God there isn't... When we are under the protection of God, there is nothing evil, only good thing. There is no evil. So God does not create evil but man's evil activities obliges God to create an evil situation.
Prabhupāda: So disease, when you are in diseased condition, it means increasing suffering. Disease increases. Without treatment disease increases, as fire, without being extinguished, without attempt of extinguishing the fire, it increases. Debt, compound interest, increases. So therefore the instruction is that disease, fire, and debt should not be kept as it is without any attention. The attention must be there to see that it is not increasing, it is being completely extinguished. That is intelligence. So therefore we must know our suffering is on account of disobedience to the orders of God, or on account of becoming irreligious. So we must find out the real system of religion, and we, there is already, but on account of our ignorance it is now covered by material contamination. Otherwise our relationship with God is a fact. We are thinking independently. That is foolishness. The demons, or the atheist class, they falsely think independent of the orders of God; therefore they are forced to accept which they do not want. Ultimately they are forced to accept the punishment—birth, death, old age, and disease—but still, atheist class, they deny existence of God. That is their foolishness. Actually God is there, His order is there, and if we are deficient in carrying out the order, we should take the instruction of bona fide spiritual master, the representative of God, and we should execute it, and then we become happy.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of human choice. Can you say that death is my choice? Huh? It is forced. So the, wherefrom the force is coming, that is God. Nobody wants to die, but there is force. You must die. Nobody wants to become old man. You must become old man. The sanity is to find out wherefrom this enforcement is coming. That is Supreme. Just like the government. If you disobey the orders of government, immediately you will be punished. So we can understand there is supreme authority. Similarly, I do not want to die. I am enforced to die. So there must be some supreme authority. That supreme authority is God. Either call nature or God, whatever you call, there is something supreme which is controlling you. How you can philosophize and imagine that man can imagine God, man can imagine this and...? That is insanity.
Hayagrīva: "It is the grace of God that He wishes to be personal in relation to you. If you throw away His grace, He punishes you by behaving objectively, or impersonally, towards you."
Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's right. That is very good. Impersonal conception of God is a troublesome business. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: kleśaḥ adhikataras teṣām avyakta āsakta cetasām. Find out this verse.
Hayagrīva: He says, "If you throw away His grace, He punishes you by behaving objectively toward you, and in that sense one may say that the world has not got a personal God in spite of all the proofs. But while dons and parsons," that is priests, "drivel on," talk on, "about the millions of truths about God's personality, the truth is that there are no longer the men living who could bear the pressure and weight of having a personal God." Because he feels that a personal God would make demands on man, and so therefore men reject the idea of a personal God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Personal God means He is demanding, as Kṛṣṇa is demanding, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: (BG 18.65) "Always think of Me, or offer Me worship, offer Me obeisances, and become My devotee. And give up all other engagement. Simply be engaged in My service." This is the demand of God, and if we carry out His demand, then we are perfect. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). If you simply carry out the orders of God then you become qualified, fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. This is clearly stated. Tyaktvā deham. We have to give up this body, but a devotee, a pure devotee, after giving up this body, he doesn't accept another material body, but in his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: That will never take place. Just like in a prison house, if the prisoners desire something, no, it will never furnish it. It is meant for punishment. So he'll have to abide by the desires of the jail superintendent. He cannot. Similarly, here every living entity is a prisoner. The superintendent of prisons is Durgā Devī. Durgā means fort: you cannot go out, conditioned. So therefore frustration is the law here.
Prabhupāda: So that's all right, there must be somebody who punishes him for his crime. Is it not? The greatest crime, he is suffering, then there must be somebody who is judge that "You are criminal, you must suffer."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, janme jana rage jana (Bengali). That a man is destined to be punished, he is put within the water. When he is almost on the point of suffocation, he is taken out. He feels how happy. He does not, "Oh, again I am down. Again I will be down." If I have happiness here, it is temporary relief. But if he is intelligent enough, then he will not do something which may put him into that unhappiness condition.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. He is putting himself in more. By suicide he becomes a ghost. That is more troublesome. Yes. Because the body given by God, he is killing. So from this body he has to accept another body. So unless that point comes, he has to remain a ghost. No body. Suppose I have to live in this body eighty years. I'll make suicide. So up to five years I have to remain a ghost, no body. Then it may be chance to get another body. This is wrong. Killing of any body, because na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So one can put this argument, that the soul is everlasting, so what if the body is killed? But that's all right, body is killed, but you cannot kill the body to hamper its progress. One living entity is destined to live in a certain body. If you destroy that body, then he has to wait for the next body. That means you are interfering with his progress. Therefore you are sinful. Just like I am living in this apartment. If somebody by force drives me away, it is criminal. If I go to the police, that "I was living in this apartment and this man by force has driven me," is it not criminal? So I am not lost because I am driven out of this body. But you will be liable for criminal punishment because you have forced me to leave this body.
Prabhupāda: That is brahmacārī. That is recommended in the Vedic culture, that from the very beginning of his life, divert his attention for spiritual activities, he, he will forget about sex life. That is the experience. Not only a trained-up child, even a grown-up person, if he takes Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, he also forgets sex life. So that is possible by training, one can forget sex life. That, that is experience of Yamunacārya. He expressing, yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde. He says that "Since my, my mind and attention has been diverted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness activities, as soon as I thing of sex life, I spite on it." That is possible. It is simply question of training. And if one indulges in sex life without any restriction, the physical problem is there. He will be impotent. He will not be able to, even though he has got sex organs, he will not be able to use it. That is nature's way of punishing.
Prabhupāda: Then what you can do? If you say that you are being tossed by some superior power, how you can become a hero? If you become a hero, then you will be more kicked, because you are under superior power. Therefore a man who is culprit, he is under police custody, so if he becomes hero he will be simply beaten and punished, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Alexander. Alexander and the robber. There is a story that a robber was arrested by Alexander and there was talk between Alexander and the robber: "You proved that you are big robber, that's all. Why you are going to punish me?" And he was released: "Yes. I'm a big robber. I have no difference between you and me."
Prabhupāda: It's quite clear. Just like if you make a decision to do something criminal, the plan is already there—you will be arrested and punished. If you make a choice that "I must do it. This is my decision. I must kill that person," you can do that, but there is already a plan that you will be hanged. That is less intelligent. They are not intelligent.
Śyāmasundara: No. But he says you can train a man to accept certain values by reinforcing, rewarding them when they are right and punishing them when they are wrong.
Prabhupāda: That means there are living conditions, he wants to make them further conditioned.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is the idea.
Śyāmasundara: He shows scientifically that you can train a rat to push..., of many buttons, he will push the one that gives him food. If he pushes one button and the food comes, then he will continually press that button. So he says you can condition a man by rewarding him when he is right and punishing him when he is wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the whole Vedic literature—the heaven and hell. If you do like this, then you go to heaven, and if you do like this, you go to hell. If you do like this, you go to Godhead. That is the Vedic literature. It is already there. (Sanskrit). (Sanskrit), therefore if one chants like this, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. And this morning I was speaking, "If you want to be naked, then you become tree." (indistinct) servant, and if he wants to serve Kṛṣṇa, (indistinct). These things are there the Vedic literature. They are controlled. That is real conditioning. Real controlling means there is no mistake. If these rats and cats are controlling, then maybe you take rats' and cats' authority, and others may take tigers' and others' authority. This is stated already.
Śyāmasundara: By punishment and reward. By punishing them when they are wrong...
Devotee: Say he had a house, and he was doing that, and all of a sudden there was a flood came and the house... How could he control the environment?
Śyāmasundara: Of a person, not of a house.
Devotee: That is what I mean. How can you control the environment if that person is going to be punished and rewarded when he wants...
Prabhupāda: He says from childhood.
Śyāmasundara: He is talking about child. Infant.
Prabhupāda: Infant. Yes. That is possible. That is possible. Just like our children, from childhood they are dancing.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that ideally, if our environment was conditioned in such a way that they were rewarded for doing good things and punished for doing bad things, that they would not go away.
Prabhupāda: They would be punished, but they don't care for punishment. Just like it says in the lawbook that if you steal, you'll be arrested, but they don't care for your lawbook, the thief. What can you do? That independence is already there. The lawbook says that if you commit theft you will be punished, and he is actually punished. But if he doesn't care for punishment, then what can you do? Punishment is already there.
Śyāmasundara: For instance, he gives an example that, let's say that in an institution there is lunch served for one hour between twelve and one, and at one o'clock the door is closed and locked, sharply. So automatically everyone who wants to come must come before one o'clock, otherwise they will be punished.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. If anyone prefers to starve, they may not come. That law will be not be obligatory to a person who prefers to starve.
Devotee: Just like the child he was training, that if he ever missed a meal he would be severely punished. Then he may never want to miss a meal.
Devotee: Or he may never want to take a meal out of (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: Actually, his idea is not to let them be punished but to reward.
Prabhupāda: This is the (indistinct), that the thief has learned from the lawbooks, from the religious books, that stealing is bad. If one steals he'll be punished. Because in the human society the scriptures that they have got. No scripture will say that you should steal, for example, neither the lawbook will say that you steal. So if you have heard from scriptures and from lawbooks that stealing is criminal, and by committing this sinful activity I shall be punished, and if you have seen also that anyone who has violated this law and stolen others' property has been arrested and policeman has taken him to the jail, he has seen, he has heard, he has completely experienced, but still, why does he steal? What is the answer?
Devotee: Impelled. Because (indistinct) as a human being. He has a tendency because of the four defects of a human being.
Prabhupāda: The social environment is already there, but still you will be punished.
Śyāmasundara: But his idea is that if you reward them for not stealing that they will not steal. If you reward them sufficiently.
Prabhupāda: First of all let him come to the point of not stealing. Then you will be all right. (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: But if you pay him more, then he won't steal.
Prabhupāda: That you cannot. That you cannot. That is not possible.
Atreya Ṛṣi: The reward and punishment system, Prabhupāda, is motivational. It's not that you pay him more and you pay him less or you punish him. The thing is, he says that...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Who pays? Suppose I am going to steal and get one dollar. And if you pay me three dollars, then I may not steal. Then next point will be when there will be four dollars, I'm going to steal.
Devotee: That is their whole thing. All their philosophy tries to have good sex life so that they don't have to think that they will be punished. So if I can have this freedom then I am right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The real point is sense gratification. Freedom of sense gratification. That is their point. But these fools, they do not know that by sense gratification you are entangling yourself in repetition of birth and death.
Śyāmasundara: But that's what happens in Russia. The managers, they don't get much more than the workers, so that everyone only can have a certain income. Just like Himavati's relatives,they sent their relatives in Russia some gifts for Christmas. The relatives sold the gifts and used the money to buy wood to add a room to their house, and because of that they were greatly punished, severely punished, by the state. But they should have given that money to others, they should have distributed it equally, that was the state's theory because anything that I use for my own benefit is wrong.
Prabhupāda: So my tendency is to (consider) everything as my own, but by the taking of the state I am forced to avoid(?). So how long will this work? By force how you can change one's mind? It is not possible. Therefore we say these things are only nonsense proposition. It will never happen because anyone who is in this material world, he has the prime tendency that I shall become the Lord. (indistinct) pratiṣṭhā. The material world means everyone is seeking after some profit, everyone is seeking after some adoration, and everyone is seeking, I mean to say, some position. This is the material world.
Devotee: In Russia when they find someone who is deviating like that they send them to Siberia. So their process of checking them is to punish them.
Prabhupāda: But there... Everything is going on simply on threatening. You see there is no heart to heart cooperation(?). Therefore everyone we saw, they were morose.
Prabhupāda: This is described in Bhāgavata: punah punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), "chewing the chewed." Once it is chewed, it is thrown away, and then again, "Let me see if there is any juice." (laughter) Chewing the chewed. Or in plain words, mental concoction. The mind's business is acceptance and rejection. First of all, reject American capitalists; then again accept for consulting. That means they are hovering on the mental plane. They have no intelligence. In big scale, accepting and rejecting. That's all. It is the business of the mind. As in your personal mind you see, you accept something immediately and again reject, "No, no, it is not good." The same thing is going on in a bigger scale. That's all. They are not... Just like a pickpocket and a big scientific thief. Huh? They are trying to... Modern, scientifically, they want to rob the bank. They set the bomb. And pickpocket is satisfied by taking one paisa from your pocket. But the principle is stealing. Because you are very organized thief, it does not mean from the eyes of the law you are honest. You cannot say in the court that "I am organized thief. I am scientific thief, and he is a pickpocket." In the eyes of the law you are also punishable, he is also punishable. That's all. So they are, I mean to say, large-scale speculators. That's all. But it is, after all, speculation. It has no fact.
Prabhupāda: That two cooperation, two kinds of cooperation is going on. Just like in a state a citizen is cooperating as a free citizen. The same citizen is cooperating in the prison by force. The jail superintendent says, "Now you break these bricks." He has to do; otherwise he'll be punished. He is cooperating by force. But this cooperation is inferior cooperation. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). By constitutional position, a living entity is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. In the Vaikuṇṭha jagat, the cooperation, the service is voluntary. And here in this material world the service is forced because it is māyā. Just like in the jail the service is there. One who declares that "I don't care for the government. I break all the laws." But he is put into jail. There is no question of breaking the laws, but by law he has to work forcibly. He has to do it. So here in this material world we are working under force of māyā. That is called daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). That force you cannot avoid. You cannot avoid. Only you can avoid when you voluntarily cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te.
Prabhupāda: So that means he wants to listen somebody's dictation. That is, as soon as you say "listen," then somebody is speaking, you listen. So that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is situated in everyone's heart, and He is dictating. Even He is dictating to the thief that "You are going to steal. It is not good. If you are arrested you will be punished." That dictation is there, but he disobeys the dictation and he steals, commits sin. That is sin. So the dictator is there, we admit that. Kṛṣṇa, or God, is there within the heart, and He is giving dictation, but you disobey. But if we accept that dictation, then you become devotee. Dictation is already there; otherwise this thief is going to steal at night? Dictation is there that "You don't go at the daytime. You will be captured and be punished." "All right, I shall go at night, when everyone is sleep." So dictation is there. Dictation is there in two ways—from the heart and from the representative. God's representative, saintly person, spiritual master, is dictating, "My dear boy, do not do this; you do this." Outside dictation. And inside dictation. But he is disobeying. Regularly he is disobeying.
Hayagrīva: He believes that the cosmic order awards and punishes everyone according to merit, according to one's merit. So this is a form of belief in karma also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are discussing Ajāmila's, this Ajāmila is going to be punished. The Yamarāja is there, the officer is there. He has sent his men to arrest. So just like it is the father's duty if the son goes astray, in wrong way, the father is always affectionate. He tries to bring him back again home by, either by punishing or some way or some means. That is father's duty. So this is going on. Those who are in this material world, they are simply suffering on account of foolishness. So they are punished. This punishment means to correct him, to correct him to the proper position, and this is going on. So without being corrected, if one is intelligent enough, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa and revives his old constitutional position, and that is the platform of spiritual life of bliss and knowledge.
Hayagrīva: Augustine disagrees with Origen, who looked on the body as a prison. He says, "If the opinion of Origen and his followers where true, that matter was created, that souls might be enclosed in bodies as in penitentiaries for the punishment of sin, then the higher and lighter bodies should have been for those whose sins were slight, and the lower and heavier ones for those whose crimes were great." So...
Prabhupāda: That is Vedic conception. The soul, he, as he is, he is part and parcel of God, but he is imprisoned in different types of body. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that "I am the seed-giving father of all different forms of life, and the mother, material nature is the mother." That is actually very logical. Through the matter different varieties of living entities are coming out. From water, from earth, from air, even from fire, ether, everywhere, sarva-gataḥ, life, living entities are visible. Therefore the combination of five elements—earth, water, fire, air—that is the body of the living entities.
Hayagrīva: The belief in the creation of the soul. The soul is created, and that the body is a gift. And he also rejects, on the basis of this, he rejects reincarnation. He writes, "Let these Platonists..." Because Plato believed in it, reincarnation. "Let these Platonists stop threatening us with reincarnation as a punishment for our souls. Reincarnation is ridiculous. There is no such thing as a return to this life for the punishment of souls. If our creation, even as mortals, is due to God..."
Prabhupāda: Punishment of the soul? What is that return?
Hayagrīva: He says, "There is no such thing as a return to this life for the punishment of souls." And the reason he gives, he says, "If our..."
Prabhupāda: Soul is life. What does it mean, "returning to the life"?
Hayagrīva: He believes there is no reincarnation as punishment. Reincarnation is envisioned as a kind of a punishment. To have to take birth again is a type of punishment, and Augustine rejects this, saying that how can the return to bodies, which are gifts of God, be punishment? He doesn't see how that this is a form of...
Prabhupāda: But does he think that the body of a hog and the body of similar lower creatures eating stool and living in filthy place, is it not punishment? Does he think like that? Why one gets the body of King Indra or Lord Brahmā and why one gets the body of a pig and hog, and living in filthy place and eating stool? Is it not punishment and reward?
Prabhupāda: Why, why he will not agree? If a body is a gift by God, then body can be a punishment also by God.
Hayagrīva: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is reasonable. When he is punished, he gets the body of a pig. When he is rewarded, he gets the body of King Indra. So that is punishment and reward.
Hayagrīva: What about the body of a man? Is that punishment or gift?
Prabhupāda: Man, man, there are many men who are very well situated and there are many men who are suffering. So two things are there according, suffering and enjoyment, according to the body. So this has been explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ (BG 2.14). According to the body the heat and, what is called, cold? Heat or cold?
Hayagrīva: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Sītā uṣṇa. That is perceived. An old man perceives very much cold, and a young child, he does not perceive—according to the body. An animal, naked body, he can walk on the street in severe cold, but a man cannot. So this body is the source of suffering and enjoying. So why not take it as punishment and reward?
Hayagrīva: Well, Augustine believes that each individual man, or each individual soul within man, is not necessarily condemned to earth due to his own personal desire or sin but due to the original sin of Adam, the first man. He writes, "When the first couple," that's Adam and Eve, "were punished by the judgment of God, the whole human race, which was to become Adam's posterity through the first woman, was present in the first man." So that was the origin of sin and death. So man's sin is not personal. The reason I'm in..., conditioned in this human body is not because I personally committed a mistake...
Prabhupāda: Your becoming conditioned is punishment. Why you should be conditioned?
Hayagrīva: For my..., as punishment for my own desire.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: For my personal desire.
Prabhupāda: Then why does he say there is not punishment?
Hayagrīva: But here he says it's because not for anything I did, but because of the original man, the sin of the original man, that everyone coming from the original man is...
Prabhupāda: Original man was punished. So the next man, he, why he comes to such father, unless he is punished? Sometimes father's disease is inherited by the son. Is it not punishment?
Hayagrīva: ...the race is a punishment in itself.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: He says this on the one hand, and on the other hand he says it's a gift, not a punishment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, gift you can take. If you take it that it is given by God, so it is gift. "God has given me this body for punishment. It is His mercy that undergoing punishment I am becoming purified, making progress towards God." The devotees, they think like that. Although it is punishment, they take it as reward, because by undergoing the punishment he is making progress towards God-realization. In that sense it is a gift. Gift actually means something given by somebody. So when it is given by God for our correction, it can be taken as gift.
Hayagrīva: Augustine believes that the physical body comes first, and then the spiritual. "What is so in a natural body arises a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. But it is not the spiritual which comes first, but the physical and then the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, earthy. The second man is from heaven, heavenly. But the body which, by the life-giving spirit will become spiritual and immortal, will under no conditions be able to die." So that man must first come as a, as man, as a mortal, physical being first, in order to attain immortality.
Prabhupāda: Why man? Every living entity has a mortal body. So to enter into the mortal body, that is a kind of punishment. And then there is evolutionary process from lower grade of body to higher grade of body. That is quite reasonable, that every living entity or soul is part and parcel of God, but on account of some sinful activities or disobedience to God, as they believe Adam on account of disobedience to God they lost Paradise and came to this material world, similarly, the soul belongs to the Paradise, or heaven, or Kṛṣṇa, but somehow or other he falls down within this material world, and he gets first a body like Adam. But again, on account of his further, low-grade activities, he goes down, sometimes as human being or sometimes as more than human being—the demigod—and sometimes as animal, trees, plants. In this way he goes down, degradation, or goes up by elevation. But he is always aloof from the material body, but according to his desires and activity he gets different body. This is quite reasonable and confirmed by the Vedic literature. But his actual life is when he is freed from this material contamination, getting different bodies life after life.
Prabhupāda: So anyway, we also have similar passage, that kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare. This is mortal sins, when the living entity disobeys the order of God, he is put into this material world, and that is his punishment. And he either rectifies himself by good association or he continues this transmigration one body after another and suffers this tribulations of material existence.
Prabhupāda: But that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison—everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will.
Prabhupāda: Anything you take, that is perfection of knowledge in God. Which thing is not related with God? Everything is related with God. In the material world anything you will take it is made of the five elements, but these five elements, they are expansion of God's energy. So intelligent person sees in everything with reference to God's expansion of energy. That is the position of devotee. He does not think anything separate from God. And as he is lover of God, devotee of God, he wants to engage everything, because if everything is God's property, that should be used for God's benefit. This is devotee's conception. The asuras, they have no conception of God. Neither they are obedient to God, neither lover of God. He thinks the material world is for his enjoyment. He cannot see the material world is expansion of God's energy. Therefore anyone who uses the material product for his personal benefit, he is called a thief. Just like I have created something. If somebody use up that something and does not think of the proprietor, he is a thief. Thief means, in our childhood we got a definition of thief, that anything taken without the permission the property is theft. That is very nice. So anything in this world has reference to the expansion of energy of God. So if you do not take everything as prasādam, then you are thief and you are punishable. A thief is always punished. So therefore those who are enjoying things without reference to the God, they are all demons and they are punishable. They are thieves.
Hayagrīva: Skinner believes in what he calls reinforcement, reinforcing people's behavior. He doesn't believe in punishing people when they do wrong, but he believes more in a system of rewards. He writes, "A government may prevent defection by making life more interesting, by providing bread and circuses, and by encouraging sports, gambling, the use of alcohol and other drugs, and various kinds of sexual behavior, where the effect is to keep people within reach of aversive sanctions." So he...
Prabhupāda: He recommends these things?
Hayagrīva: So he believes that through..., by providing the people with sense gratification the government can keep people from acting in an antisocial way.
Prabhupāda: That means he is also of the same category. No, that will not help. Just like, the example is given in this connection, that when there is fire, if you think that putting more and more ghee the fire will extinguish, that is not possible. To keep the society in order they must be educated according to his capacity, and they should be engaged for common benefit. That is required. Not that to encourage them in their bad habits things will be done nicely. No. That is not possible.
Purports to Songs
The enactment or state laws cannot make a man, a thief, an honest man because he cannot be tamed. His heart is polluted. Every man sees that a person committing criminal offense is punished by the government. And in scriptural injunction there is mention that "If you do this, you will be punished in the hell." He has heard from the scripture, and he has practically seen by the punishment of state laws. Still, he is not tamed. He cannot be tamed. So why? Because he hasn't got his relationship with Nityānanda. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, durācāra. Durācāra means very much misbehaved. He cannot be tamed. Sei paśu boro durācār. And what they are doing? Nitāi nā bolilo mukhe. They do not know who is Nityānanda, so never says "Lord Nityānanda," or "Lord Caitanya." So nitāi nā bolilo mukhe, majilo saṁsāra-sukhe. Majilo means becomes absorbed, dipped into the so-called material enjoyment. They don't care who is Nityānanda or Caitanya. So nitāi nā bolilo mukhe. Because his life is animalistic, sei paśu boro durācār, very difficult to be tamed, so he is going down, deep into this material existence.
It is a punishment on me by the Yamaraja, the superintendent of death." Actually, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, saṅkīrtana movement, is so nice and attractive, every simple, I mean to say, unsophisticated person shall be attracted. But if one is not attracted it is to be understood that he is being punished by the laws of the superintendent of death. Anyway, if we stick to this principle of chanting, then even Yamarāja, the superintendent of death, he'll also fail to punish. That is the verdict of Brahma-saṁhitā. Brahma-saṁhitā says, one who takes to this devotional life, his reaction of past deeds are adjusted immediately. so every one of us should take part in this movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare.
| Page Title: | Punishment (Lectures, Others) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 11 of May, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=138, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 138 |