Śyāmasundara: He describes ultimate reality as space-time. Space and time. He says that time is an infinity of instants, single instants, and that the basis of infinity is a point, and that these two are combined and this is called reality.
Prabhupāda: Infinity of?
Prabhupāda: Points and?
Śyāmasundara: Infinity of instants.
Śyāmasundara: Instant. Like a moment is an instant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hm.
Śyāmasundara: So he calls this ultimate reality. Time and space.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Time is... We take it reality, time. That we accept also. Time is eternal. Reality. And therefore we take time as another feature of God.
Śyāmasundara: And space?
Prabhupāda: Space is later created.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, after time. Oh. And it creates the ultimate reality?
Prabhupāda: No. No. Space is also reality. Space is prakṛti. Prakṛti, kāla, jīva, and Bhagavān. They are all reality.
Śyāmasundara: Oh. Those four things.
Śyāmasundara: Oh. He leaves out entity and Bhagavān. He only has time and space in the ultimate reality.
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy... We see that one ultimate creator, Bhagavān. And jīvātmā, subsequent creator. God has created wood; I create a table and chair. I am subsequent. I am not ultimate creator. So jīvātmā is subsequent creator. Both the creators are eternal. And because the creation has got time connection, past, present, and future, so time is eternal. Time is eternal and jīva is eternal and prakṛti.
Śyāmasundara: Prakṛti means space?
Prabhupāda: Prakṛti means elements. Space is sky. Space is sky. So sky is one of the fundamental factors of prakṛti, space.
Śyāmasundara: Anything which occupies space.
Śyāmasundara: So there is even spiritual space?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Otherwise, how there is spiritual world? The ingredient is different. Otherwise, they're exactly the same. Just like you create plastic tree like this. The plastic tree and this tree, ingredients are the same. The same, that earth, water, air. What is this plastic? It is also a kind of earth. Is it not? You mix with water and put a shape and heat it, it becomes glass and this and that, so many things. Similarly, the whole material creation is also combination and permutation... What is called?
Prabhupāda: Of these five elements. Especially earth, water and fire. Just like this brick What is this brick? Earth, water, mix and put it into fire. It is brick.
Śyāmasundara: (aside:) Should I turn it off? (?)
Prabhupāda: And you crush this brick, it becomes mortar. And mix with lime and water. Then it becomes cementing plaster, and put the bricks after bricks with that cement and it becomes house. So ultimately earth, water, and fire. Tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayam, exchange of earth, water, and fire.
Śyāmasundara: And he says that nothing remains at rest, that everything is in perpetual transition.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is accepted. That is called jagat. Gacchati. Everything is going on, forward. That is called jagat.
Śyāmasundara: Even the activities of the spiritual world are like that?
Prabhupāda: No. Spiritual world is different. We are speaking of material world. In spiritual world the activity is eternal. In material world activity is not eternal.
Śyāmasundara: But motion, the motion is eternal because everything is moving.
Prabhupāda: Motion is interaction of the three qualities. Just like you put soda and alkali, alkali and acid together, there is a reaction, effervescence. So both of them are material, but in due course of time it reacts, and then creation takes place.
Śyāmasundara: What about activities in the spiritual sky, beyond...?
Prabhupāda: Activities of the spiritual sky, that is eternal. Everything is eternal there.
Śyāmasundara: But... Isn't there motion?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not motion? Because there is living entities. Living entities means life force. There must be motion.
Śyāmasundara: This is his idea: all of creation means motion. There is motion everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Without motion, how there can be creation? This is called kṣobha. Nothing is created without motion.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that he wants to find some categories which define the characteristics of everything, that everything possesses these things in common.
Prabhupāda: That five elements: earth, water, fire, air... Anything you take, these things are there. And subtler things: mind, intelligence, and ego. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that these eight kinds of material elements are differentiated energy of Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: His categories are a little more abstract. He says that the primary category is motion.
Prabhupāda: But wherefrom the motion comes? That is insufficient knowledge. When you... Motion means somebody must move, push on. That is accepted by Professor Einstein. If somebody has pushed, the motion has begun. Now it is going on. Just like in the billiard table, push one ball, "Hut!" And it goes.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. So he says that there are four major categories besides the primary category of motion and they are 1) identity or diversity. Each thing has a personal identity, an individuality, and each thing is different from every other thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called sajātīya-vijātīya bheda in Sanskrit. Different... Sajātīya. Just like two trees, two mango trees, but still there is difference. They are one as mango tree, but this tree is different from that tree. Similarly, the fingers. As finger they are one, but this finger is different from this finger. Although sajātī. Sajātī means of the same category, but there is difference. Although the same category, finger, but this finger is bigger than this finger. The whole body. It's a part of the body. Hand is different from leg. Leg is different from his head. Head is different from palm. Palm is different from sole. There are so many differences. They are called sajātī vijātī.
Śyāmasundara: So the one characteristic that they all have is that they are individuals, that they are individual.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One characteris... One is substance, another is character, character.
Prabhupāda: Category, yes.