Prabhupāda: So Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī deprecated, "Oh! This is a nonsense! Why a sannyāsī should chant and dance? He should concentrate his mind in studying Vedānta. He is a fool." In this way Caitanya Mahāprabhu was criticized. So one Maharastrian brāhmaṇa, he was devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He said that "This incident gave us much pain, sir. If You kindly meet this sannyāsī and talk with him about Vedānta-sūtra, that would be a nice thing." In the meantime one brāhmaṇa came and invited Lord Caitanya that "I have invited all the sannyāsīns of Benares, but I know You do not meet these Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, but still I have come to invite You. You kindly accept my invitation." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw this opportunity of meeting Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. He accepted his invitation, and there was a meeting, and there was discussion of Vedānta-sūtra with Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, and He converted him to be a Vaisnava. That is another incident.
Pain (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"pain"
|"pained"
|"painful"
|"painfully"
|"painfulness"
|"paining"
|"painless"
|"pains"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: He knows the Lord, how He is playing, how He is bewildering the atheistic class of men. The atheistic class of men did not believe in God. Lord Buddha says, "Yes, you don't require to believe in God. There is no God. But you feel yourself that when you are attacked with violence you feel pain. Why should you offer to others?" Because his mission was to stop animal killing. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darṣita-paśu-ghātam. The Supreme Lord became too much compassionate when he saw that people are unnecessarily killing animals, as it is going on still. Instead of... At least those who are claiming Buddhist, they are killing animals. Bruce, is it not? Yes. But in the Buddhist religion there is no sanction for killing animals. Yes?
Prabhupāda: Now we are with Sambhu in Bombay. As soon as the aeroplane would come on top of the house it is just like thunderbolt. Yes. At least I was feeling like that. Vajrapa. You see? So this is called illusion. We are creating a civilization which is so much painful, but we are thinking that we are advanced. This is illusion. We are creating simply problems, and still, we are thinking that we are advanced.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we try to avoid getting injections as much as possible?
Prabhupāda: That is my opinion. But as soon as you go to a medical man, especially in your country, first of all, you have to give blood, immediately. (laughter) One ounce of blood immediately. First business. And then other injection. Because I underwent so many medical examination, I have got experience. For my immigration. I think, three or four times I was under health examination, and blood-taking, and injection. Of course, it is not very painful. That arrangement is there. But the business is like that, "First of all give your blood; then talk of other things." Better to die without a doctor. (laughter) That's the best principle. Don't call any doctor. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and die peacefully.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But what about when you're not going to die... What about when you have some problems that's not fatal. Then who would we call?
Prabhupāda: Then go take injection. What can be done? (laughter) There is no alternative.
Revatīnandana: Do you follow the question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? His question is do we concern ourselves with particular problems in the world, there's the war in Vietnam, there's racial discrimination? Do we make statements to condemn this war or to condemn that discrimination?
Prabhupāda: No. Thing is that there are so many problems. Our proposition is, when you become God conscious, then all problems automatically solved. We don't take the problems. We take the... Just like disease. There are many symptoms. A man is suffering from a particular disease. He has a headache, he has this pain, this pain, that pain.
Sister Mary: You go down to the heart of the matter.
Devotee: To the root cause.
Sister Mary: They're only symptoms.
Prabhupāda: Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. The business of the finger is to serve the body. So long it is in normal condition, the finger is meant for serving the body. When the finger is painful or in abnormal condition it cannot serve the body. Similarly, the living entity, being part and parcel of God, when we cannot serve God that is his abnormal condition. And when he serves God that is his normal condition. That is designation-less position. That is our program.
Dr. Weir: That's very interesting. To my mind the nearest approach in the Christian religion is the Unitarian position, which I don't know if you studied.
Mensa Member: Well, is that absolutely (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: The Buddhist thinks that everyone is God.
Prabhupāda: In Buddhist theory there is no acceptance of God. There is simply to diminish, or to nullify the sense of pains and pleasures. That is called nirvāṇa.
Dr. Weir: The atheist is the person who worries most about God. I mean, he really... God must exist but he tries to deny it all. Rather like, I had a lecturer at Oxford who wasn't interested in women. He was a misogynist. He talked, you know (indistinct) and he spent all his time telling you he wasn't interested in women. He thought about nothing but women and the fact that he wasn't interested in them. His lectures were full of it. It was pathetic.
Śyāmasundara: Just like Kaṁsa!
Prabhupāda: Hiraṇyakaśipu. Gold and women.
Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa says, "I will save you." Therefore let us go to Kṛṣṇa. Why (indistinct)?
Reporter: Changing, because he is disturbing, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Disturbing... Your mind is also disturbing always.
Reporter: Yes, yes. You are...
Prabhupāda: That is always with you. Your body disease always with you. Are you not suffering from bodily pains—"Oh, I'll (indistinct)"? Why don't you go to (indistinct) to cure your (indistinct)? (laughter). So why you do? You are already in danger. If you... Why don't you realize that point?
Reporter: That I... Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore...
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So make imperson. That's all. Negation. Personality is giving us trouble, so make imperson. God must be imperson, because as soon as we have person, there is trouble. They have got experience. (indistinct) as soon as they (indistinct), make it zero, then there is no pains and pleasure. The body, because Buddha philosophy does not give any idea of soul-bodily concept. The body is combination of matter, so dismantle this combination. Just like you have got a skyscraper building, so you have to pay tax. Break it, make it zero, so no tax. This is philosophy. Do you follow? You have got a very big building, so you have to pay tax. To save tax, break the building. No more taxes. No more pains and pleasure. No more anxiety. That is Buddha philosophy. That means these philosophers are called fools and rascal, less intelligent. Would you like this advice, that you have got a big building, just like in London there is a big building, and he has got a policy anyway that he does not allow any tenant. Largest building in London, to save tax.
Prabhupāda: Not imitate the best devotee.
Bob: Not, what is that word?
Prabhupāda: Imitate.
Devotees: Imitate, imitate.
Bob: Oh, ācchā, ācchā, I see. Imitate. (pause) (break)
Śyāmasundara: ...you said that sometimes you feel pain, some sickness, due to the sinful activities of your devotees. Is that... Couldn't sometimes disease be that, due to that? Caused by that?
Prabhupāda: You see, Kṛṣṇa says that ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). So Kṛṣṇa's so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others and immediately make it gone. But when a living entity plays the part on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he also takes the responsibility of these sinful activities of his devotee. So to become a guru is not an easy task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb. So sometimes, because he's not Kṛṣṇa, so sometimes there is some trouble.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is sure to happen because we are accepting so many men. But it is the duty of the disciple to be cautious. That "My spiritual master saved me. I may not put him again into these sufferings." (break) When the spiritual master is in suffering, Kṛṣṇa saves him. Kṛṣṇa thinks, "Oh, he has taken so much responsibility for delivering a fallen person." So Kṛṣṇa is there. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). Because the spiritual master takes the risk on account of Kṛṣṇa.
Bob: So your suffering is not the same kind of pain that an impure person...
Prabhupāda: No, it is not due to karma. The pain is there sometimes so that the disciples may know that "Due to our sinful activities my spiritual master is suffering." (break)
Bob: ...very well now.
Prabhupāda: I'm always well. (break) ...well in this sense, even there is suffering, I know Kṛṣṇa will protect me. But this suffering is not due to my sinful activities.
Dr. Kapoor: That's all right.
Prabhupāda: And if our movement is supported in that way, that will be nice.
Dr. Kapoor: I was out from Vṛndāvana for about a month-and-a-half, that I told you. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was also painful.
Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct) hell. Although I was with my children, you see, small kiddies, lovely people, you see. And still, you see, I didn't like to stay with them.
Prabhupāda: That I can understand.
Prabhupāda: So Lord Buddha appeared, just being compassionate to the poor animals. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghātam. Sadaya. He became very compassionate, that "All these poor animals are being killed unnecessarily." So he promulgamated a new type of religion-ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. "Don't commit violence. If I pinch your body, you feel pain. You should not pinch others." That is his religion. So, but, he... Because others, they will argue, "Oh, in the Vedas..." As I told you, that Vedas is the evidence, so "Here is... Animal killing is ordered. How you are stopping it?" Therefore he said, "I don't care for your Vedas." And because he did not care for the Vedas, therefore in India, later on, nobody accepted Buddha philosophy.
Prabhupāda: So Lord Buddha appeared, just being compassionate to the poor animals. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghātam. Sadaya. He became very compassionate, that "All these poor animals are being killed unnecessarily." So he promulgamated a new type of religion-ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. "Don't commit violence. If I pinch your body, you feel pain. You should not pinch others." That is his religion. So, but, he... Because others, they will argue, "Oh, in the Vedas..." As I told you, that Vedas is the evidence, so "Here is... Animal killing is ordered. How you are stopping it?" Therefore he said, "I don't care for your Vedas." And because he did not care for the Vedas, therefore in India, later on, nobody accepted Buddha philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (exits car)
Devotee (1): Someday by Kṛṣṇa's grace we'll put a big festival right here. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. When there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is no longer material. That is spiritual.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Those of us who have been blessed by your teachings, we still are conditioned to forget Kṛṣṇa. It's very painful when we forget. I know myself, I am still a rascal. It's very difficult when I forget. (break)
Prabhupāda: It is your duty to give protection.
Devotee (1): When he was very small, he came back from the temple one Sunday chanting and dancing, and finally we went to see what it was.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all we have to know ourselves. To know ourselves means self-realization: "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." Then what is this spirit soul? Naturally, part and parcel of God. Therefore as spirit soul my duty is to serve God. That is religion, plain thing. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. It is serving me. That is healthy condition. If there is any pain—"Oh, this finger cannot scratch. I'm feeling pain"—that is irreligion. So long the part and parcel of my body, the finger, cannot serve me, it is not normal condition. So every living being is part and parcel of God. So long he's unable to serve God, that is his material condition. But as soon as he's engaged actually in the service of God, that is his real liberated position. Same example: If the finger is diseased, it cannot serve.
Prabhupāda: The same example: The finger in diseased condition cannot serve me. It has to be treated when there is some pain. Suppose this, the nail, I apply some medicine, cure it so that it can serve me. So the whole world is suffering because he's not fit to serve God. So if he becomes fit to serve God, then all the suffering will be gone. The same example again: When the finger is fit to serve, that means it has no disease. And so long it is diseased, there is pain, it cannot serve.
Devotee: It suffers.
Prabhupāda: That's all. The finger, so long it is serving my body like this, like this, it is in real condition, real, healthy condition. And if it is painful—it cannot serve—then it is not in healthy condition. So therefore any living entity who is not serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not in healthy condition. He is in māyā. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is in māyā.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then why don't they search for real knowledge?
Prabhupāda: Therefore, they are rascal. Why they are rascal? They will not take real knowledge. Just like children: obstinate. The father says, "Don't touch, don't touch this." But he says, "No, touch," and he touches. As soon as he touches it, he (makes noise like one in pain).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Burned.
Dr. Kapoor: You have the background.
Prabhupāda: I can give them. They are asking me about my pain liniment and the eczema ointment. (laughter) I can give them. I can give them.
Dr. Kapoor: You can tell them you are now selling Kṛṣṇa-bhakti.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: ...about animals not willing to die. Why? What is the psychology? Nobody wants to die.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will ask: "How do I know that animals do not want to die?"
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. As soon as you want to kill, it cries. Man or animal, anyone. Even the trees, they feel pain. That is also... You do not know that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: No. They feel pain. You know Jagadisha Bose's pulsitation...? What is called?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Pulsation?
Prabhupāda: The trees feel when you cut, they feel. There is machine. They, he discovered this. You have not been in Calcutta, Sir Jagadish Institute?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Probably not.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Probably not.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He, he discovered this wireless, Marconi's. Marconi took advantage from him. They were talking together and when Marconi got the hint from him, he immediately published. it was his invention, Sir Jagadish. Therefore he invented this pulsation of the trees. and started the Sir Jagadish Institution in Calcutta. So there is painful feeling even of the trees, what to speak of others.
Brahmānanda: Even a small insect...
Prabhupāda: Anyone.
Brahmānanda: Fire...?
Prabhupāda: Fire, disease and debt. How he instructed us. If you take loan from somewhere, interest compounded, one day it will become so big, unmanageable by you. Similarly fire may be very, a spark, but gradually it will so increase, oh, blazing fire. Disease also. Now there is little pain. Now, if it increases, it becomes tuberculosis. So therefore he has said: Never neglect these things: fire, or smaller or higher." They're always dangerous. (pause) There is a, in India, there is a proverb, hīrā and khīrā. Hīrā means diamond and khīrā means cucumber. It has no value, a few cents. And diamond is very valuable. But if some, somebody steals khīrā, he's also criminal, and one steals hīrā, he's also criminal. The punishment is equal. If he says: "I have stolen one khīrā. What is the value of it?" But by law, he's criminal. Never mind. (pause) (break) ...that he'll be happy in that way.
Brahmānanda: Yeah.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I can understand that matter is a part of life.
Prabhupāda: This matter... You can understand by the finger. This matter, this nail, is production of this part. This part is life and this part is not life. But it is a production of this life. When you have cut your nails, you don't feel pain. But same instrument you touch your little, half inch down, immediately you feel pain. So therefore although qualitatively... This is also produced of matter, as produced of this part. But where there is feeling, that is spiritual, and where there is no feeling, that is matter. What is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? The human being is the same. But as soon as he feels that "There is Kṛṣṇa," he is spiritualist. As soon as he does not feel, he is materialist. That is the difference. It is the question of feeling. Matter means where there is absence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Just see. He is paid for that killing.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They lost the mercifulness, the quality...
Prabhupāda: What merciful? Animal has mercifulness. They are animals only. This modern civilization is producing animals. That's it. Who was speaking that slaughterhouse they are giving some injection that the animal may not feel pain? Rascal, he is killing him, and he is humanitarian work, he may not feel killed. If I say, "I shall kill you, but you will not feel any pain. Come on." This is their philosophy. They are killing, and they are saying, "Oh, may not be feeling any pain." Such rascaldom is going on. I therefore do not talk with any rascal except my disciples. I know they are all rascals. Waste of time. All this rascaldom is coming out of that wrong notion that life is from matter, that wrong notion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why they say, "So long as I am alive, enjoy as much as you can."
Prabhupāda: One kind of suffering is called pertaining to the body and mind. I don't want to be diseased, but there is, all of a sudden, there is disease. Diarrhea. I don't want it, but it is imposed. This is suffering. Due to the body. Some discrepancies. Mind... Body's sound, but mind is not sound. Mind is "Oh, I don't feel today very nice." You see. This is one kind of suffering. Another suffering: other living creature gives you some pains. There are so many. Some of your friends, he turns to become your enemy. He puts you in difficulty. Or there are so many animals, so many insects. They give us trouble. This is one kind of suffering. Another kind of suffering: by nature's... All of sudden, there is drought.
Prabhupāda: Because you are meant for that purpose.
Father Tanner: Do I lose that little bit of freedom?
Prabhupāda: No, that is real freedom. Just like this, my finger, is part and parcel of my body. So long the finger serves the body, it is healthy. If it is painful, it cannot serve, then it is unhealthy. Similarly, a living entity, when he cannot serve God, that is his material condition, or unhealthy condition. When he serves God, that is his natural condition. Because he's part and parcel of God.
Father Tanner: Where did we lose the contact with God?
Prabhupāda: When you misused your freedom. You have got little freedom.
Prabhupāda: Come. (People coming in.) This greediness... That is a good suggestion, that you reduce your greediness, but unless they get a substitute, they cannot. That is the difficulty.
Buddhist Monk (1): Yes. The substitute is, according to us... We point out the difference between the sensual, fleeting pleasures, which is not quite a proper word... It's no pleasure, in that (it) brings pain and suffering. In the renunciation of greed is prīti, delight. And when a man enjoys delight, that's incomparably better and lasting, more...
Prabhupāda: According to Vedānta philosophy, every living entity is searching after delight. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). By nature, a living entity is delightful, but he has been covered by this temporary material covering, and therefore his delightness is perverted. So our philosophy, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy, is that paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). If you give him better delight, then he can give up this inferior delight of material enjoyment. Otherwise, simply by instructing that "You give up this," it is difficult.
Mother: ...but you're not mature yet.
Revatīnandana: But the culture that he has, he's giving to us.
Mother: Yes, but you're not mature. It takes years to become mature. Hurt, pain, happiness, everything together... You find God? Yes, I've found God. We all... I feel very close to God, and I feel very happy. But I would also still wish to be educated. And fortunately, I was given the chance to have an education.
Prabhupāda: Education means to know God.
Bhagavān: It's not that one class is feeling exploited by another class.
Prabhupāda: No. No. Helping. Just like when there is some pain in my leg. My brain is working how to cure it. It is helping. It is not exploiting. Similarly, my brain wants to go somewhere to see something. My leg is helping to carry me there. Just like you wanted to see me. Your brain said that: "I must see this man." Your leg carried you. This is cooperation. You have got some capacity. You do it for the benefit of the society so that he may become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This, this plan is perfect socialism. Socialism, socialism means everyone is working for elevation of everyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because that is the highest perfection of life.
Bhagavān: Another question?
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. Sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
- mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya
- śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
- āgamāpāyino 'nityās
- tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
- (BG 2.14)
If one is engaged in his cultivation of spiritual life, then he should tolerate all these bodily pains and pleasure. Because they come and go. Just like you are medical man, you treat, some patient. Suppose he's attacked with fever. Everyone knows that fever has come; after some time, it will go away. So the one who is cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's not very much disturbed with fever. He knows that it has come, it will go automatically. If we fast for few days. There is a Bengali proverb, jvaranpar ketanadali palab...(?) If you receive one unwanted guest and fever, you don't give him eat. Then it will go away. Unwanted guest, if you do not give him food, he'll go away. Even a fever also, if you don't eat, it will go automatically. So after all, these things come and go. The example is given, śīta-uṣṇa. Śīta means winter and uṣṇa means summer. As the summer comes and go, winter comes and go, so these kinds of sufferings, they come and go. So Kṛṣṇa is advising, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Therefore a brāhmaṇa's qualification is titikṣa. Śamo damaḥ śaucaṁ titikṣa, toleration. They're not very much bothered with the bodily pains and pleasure. They come and go. They're engaged in real business, how to realize Brahman. So if one is engaged in the prime business of life, Brahman understanding, athāto brahma jijñāsā, for him these bodily pains and pleasure becomes minor things. Therefore, we see such examples, that one saintly person is living in the Himalayan mountain. There is snowfall, there is no proper place, still they live. Still, there are many. But nowadays it is not possible. Voluntarily, they used to go to the forest, to the Himalaya, just to tolerate these pains and pleasure of the body equally and engage in their own business of spiritual understanding. That is human civilization. Human civilization, that is described, tapo divyam. For the supreme spiritual realization one should undergo tapasya. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). It is the instruction of Rṣabhadeva that this body... Everyone has got body, cats and dogs and hogs, they have got body. We have also body. The kings and demigods, they have got body. Everyone has got body. But especially the body of... Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. In the human society.
Devotee: Janma karma...
Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Tattvataḥ, if you can understand, then your business is done. Then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Then, after giving up this body, you are not going to accept any more this material body. My problem is acceptance of this material body. That is my problem. Because these pains and pleasure, feeling of pains and pleasure, is due to my this body. Therefore Buddha philosophy is nirvāṇa, "Make this body zero." That is his philosophy. Nirvāṇa. Because people are bothered due to these pains and pleasures. Here everything is painful. But we take something pain, as pleasure.
Guest (1): Something, some devotees want the body again and again for doing service also.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest (1): Some devotees want the body again and again...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee... Because people want perfection. But their perfection is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Their perfection is not to stop this body. But the... Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he's not living in this material world. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Anyone who's engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he's transcendental to these material qualities. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). (break) ...and then, after leaving this body, you are not going to accept any material body. And as soon as you accept a material body, you are under pains and pleasure. No pleasure, simply pains. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We are trying to avoid pains. But it is not possible. The real pain, birth, death, old age and disease, that remains. What is the use of temporary getting some so-called pleasure?
Guest (3): At what stage could one say that a person is Kṛṣṇa conscious? There must be a beginning stage...
Prabhupāda: He has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Anyone lives in that way, that "Kṛṣṇa has put me in this distressed condition of life. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. I would have been put into more severe condition of life, but He is a little, giving me little pain. So I must be very much obliged to Kṛṣṇa that He's so kind upon me." So if one lives like that, mukti-pade sa dāya-bhāk, he has got the claim to become liberated. Just like a son has got the right to claim the property of father, similarly, one who lives like this, he has the claim to become liberated. Mukti-pade sa dāya-bhāk. That is... This is Bhāgavata's statement. And similarly, in the Bhagavad-gītā, also it is stated... Sit down. Yes. Why you are late? We have talked so many things.
Woman: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. That I have already explained.
Prabhupāda: All these things are, they are simply māyā. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). "These rascals, they are working so hard, making gorgeous arrangement. For what? For illusory sense gratification." That sense gratification is also false. Real sense gratification is in Kṛṣṇa and kṛṣṇa-dhāma. Hlādinī, sandhinī, saṁvit. Perverted in this material life. Āhlāda-tapa-kārī miśrayate tair na guṇa-varjite (?). Here āhlāda, pleasure and tapa-kārī, pain, and mixture of āhlāda. This is the position. Tair na guṇa-varjite (?). This kind of pleasure is not in Kṛṣṇa, guṇa-varjite, because He is free from the material condition. So anyway, the human life is only meant for... This is our mission, to teach that "You are simply wasting your time. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is his only business. And next business is, those who cannot directly take to, then those, they should be helping this movement. Therefore we go door-to-door, to connect them, to be linked up with this movement, life member, this member, that member... They are misunderstanding, "They have no other good business. Transcendental fraud, giving us some book and taking money and eating and sleeping. They have got..." They are thinking like that.
Prabhupāda: That is the injunction of the Vedas. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva... (MU 1.2.12). Therefore these rascals should go to a bona fide guru.
Devotee (2): So how we can get them to willingly come...
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Devotee (2): ...to the guru?
Prabhupāda: Just like if you are diseased, you are suffering the pains, so naturally you shall be inclined how to reduce the pain, how to get out of...
Devotee (2): But the scientists...
Prabhupāda: But these rascals, even though are suffering three kinds of pains, tri-tāpa-yatna. Just like why you are covered? Because there is pain. Severe cold, similarly severe heat. So we are suffering, either summer season or winter season. We are suffering, tri-tāpa-yatna. There is suffering from our mind, from our body—this is natural suffering. There is bodily suffering, mental suffering, then suffering caused by other living entities. So we are always suffering. But still they're thinking that "We are happy." The disease is already there. Ah? Just like the Arabian do not want to give you petrol. That means there's suffering caused by other nations. So this is going on.
Prabhupāda: They must be jealous because if simply by taking birth in a brāhmaṇa family he can become brāhmaṇa and if somebody protests then he, he becomes jealous... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Dr. Wolfe: ...quite an invalid today.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) I do not...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He had rheumatic pain, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Passerby: ...arthritic pain and I was bad in my leg today and I thought better not to go.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Dr. Wolfe: Thank you.
Yaśomatīnandana: It's so nice to be with you in the morning. The whole day is very nice.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So they have got different dresses only. But because they have got different dresses, they are not different from me. This is God consciousness. So therefore, when one is God conscious, how he can kill another animal? He knows that "If I am killed, I feel pains and pleasure, pains, then why shall I kill him? And he's also son of God. I am also son of God. So God, how He can allow to kill another son?" Suppose a father has got ten sons. One is useless, cannot earn anything. If the earning son says, "Father, he is useless, let him... Let me kill him," the father will agree? No. Father is kind to everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thoughts actually made by spirit, but it is covered by matter. Therefore in the material condition you can think only of matter. Just like this body is covered by so many material things, but actually, the spirit is covered. So the soul being spirit, so long it is covered by matter, it cannot act spiritually. It is obstructed. Not obstructed. Covered. It cannot be obstructed. If you like, you can get out of the covering of the matter. So matter cannot obstruct. But it is the will of the soul. Therefore it is called taṭastha, marginal.
Prajāpati: When we feel pain or discomfort, that is covering also?
Prabhupāda: That is to the material. Soul has no pain. It is the material covering. Just like this chilliness. We are affected by the body, material body, not the soul. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ (BG 2.14). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. This pleasure and pain is due to the material covering. Otherwise soul is unaffected. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ: "This puruṣa, the soul, is unaffected by any material condition." The same example as I give, that you have a good car. You are identifying yourself. But you are not the car. You are affected if the car is smashed, because you have got absorption in the car that "This is my car." The other man is not affected. Similarly, due to our absorption, ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8), "It is my, it is mine," we are suffering.
Rūpānuga: The False ego.
Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ mameti janasya moho 'yam (SB 5.5.8). This is illusion. He is not that, but he is thinking, "I am this." That is animalism. The animal is always thinking that "I am this body."
Girirāja: So if somebody no longer identifies with the body, what is his perception of a painful condition?
Prabhupāda: He tolerates. He knows. Just like the same example. You are not the car . If your car is smashed, although you feel sorry, but you know that "I am not a car." That is the position.
Rūpānuga: So the pain is experienced by the consciousness that is spread all over the body?
Prabhupāda: That is false. That is called illusion. You are not painful, but you are thinking that "I am painful." But that is illusion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are conditioned.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why we experience from very, our childhood that I feel pain when somebody hits me.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. When reproduce, the last body is gone.
Prajāpati: They say that the chromosomes that are transferred from father to son...
Prabhupāda: Still, the father's body is not the son's body. It is different body.
Prajāpati: It has come from father's body.
Prabhupāda: That all right, but the father's body is different. The father's pains and pleasure and the son's pains and pleasure are not the same. It may be that the father has given the ingredient of the body, but that does not mean the father's body and the son's body the same. Neither the mind is same, neither intelligence is same. It is all different. Otherwise why a son becomes disobedient to the father, "I don't agree with you"? That means, "Your intelligence, your mind, is different from my mind. I cannot agree with you." Therefore everything is different.
Devotee: They can accept that our bodies are changing now, but in the next life they have no experience of this.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Candanācārya: No, I mean. Instead of praying to demigods to give me something, saying, "Whatever you decide Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. No. A devotee never prays to Kṛṣṇa. They have to undergo so much trouble; still they never pray to Kṛṣṇa. They know that "Kṛṣṇa will give us ultimately protection. Let us do our duty." Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇaḥ (SB 10.14.8). When a devotee is in difficulty, he is not disturbed. He thinks, It is Kṛṣṇa's wish that I should suffer like like this. It is not suffering; it is my pleasure." Just like when a patient is undergoing surgical operation, there is pain, but he knows, "It is better for me." Therefore agrees, "Yes sir. You go on with your knife." So when you are surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa says that "I shall give you protection," so even in our distressed condition we must know that we are being protected by Kṛṣṇa. We should not be disturbed. Because we create so-called distress and happiness. Actually this world is distress. Here the so-called happiness is also distress. So why a devotee should be disturbed by distressed condition? Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). (break)
Candanācārya: One time you said that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not difficult, but to remain determined, that is difficult. Determination is difficult.
Chandobhai: Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata.
Prabhupāda: Ah! Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Kṣetra-kṣetrajña-jñānam. Kṣetra means this body, and kṣetrajña means one who knows. Kṣetrajña. Now, you know the pains and pleasure of your body. I know the pains and pleasure of my body. But I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body.
Chandobhai: And the Lord knows the pains and pleasures of everybody.
Prabhupāda: Therefore He says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. That is the difference. But the Māyāvādī will not accept this.
Dr. Patel: Those two birds are living on the same tree.
Prabhupāda: That is the difference. That is the difference. Paramātmā and jīvātmā, what is the difference? Kṛṣṇa says that sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. I... This is very practical, that I am the jīvātmā. I am living in this body. I know the business of my body, pains and pleasures, but I do not know what is the pains and pleasures of your body. You also do not know what is the pains and pleasures... Therefore we are individual. But Paramātmā, because He's there, He knows what is your pains and pleasure, what is my pains and pleasure. Not only you, but all living entities. That is Paramātmā. So those who are falsely claiming that "I am Paramātmā," this is the test: whether you are cognizant of everything?
Dr. Patel: Right.
Dr. Patel: ...avyayaḥ, śarīra-stho 'pi kaunteya na karoti na lipyate.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the... Śarīra-stho 'pi. Because it is said Paramātmā and jīvātmā, they are, both of them are in this body, that does not mean the Paramātmā has become like jīvātmā. Or jīvātmā has become Paramātmā. This is nonsense. Although śarīra-stha, he doesn't, he's not affected by the pains and pleasures of this body. That, that is, that is the defect of this daridra-nārāyaṇa philosophy, that although He has entered the body of a daridra, it does not mean He's affected by the quality of the daridra. But they are thinking, "Oh, Nārāyaṇa has come as daridra. Let me give something." This is their philosophy. That means Nārāyaṇa is now affected with this daridrata. (break)
Dr. Patel: Annakūṭa (Gujarati) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...we do not feed anybody.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was speaking with Kṛṣṇa. Still, he said that "I cannot see You." That is a fact. (break) Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). If you have got qualified eyes, you can see Kṛṣṇa always, twenty-four hours. So we have to qualify, purify. Sarvopādhi-vinir... You are seeing. You are trying to see God as American, as Indian, as this and that. With that eyes you cannot see. When you are neither American nor Indian nor brāhmaṇa nor śūdra, you are pure spirit, then you can see. They want to remain with this designation-body and want to see God. That is not possible. To enter fire you have to become fire. Otherwise, it will be not possible to enter fire. So without Brahman realization, you cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). (break) ...is the same. Quality, it is same. It is salt, salty. And the whole ocean is also salty. That is tat tvam asi. "You are also salty," if I say. If the drop of the water, I say that "This is also salty," that is tat tvam asi. Not that he has become the whole sea. This is rascaldom. (break) ...God create another ocean in the sky. Then you are God. When there is some tooth pain, you go to the doctor, and you are God. Just see how much nonsense they are. As soon as there is tooth pain, "Oh, oh. Just now I am not God, I am patient." So these things are going on. I have seen so many gods. I have seen one that Dr. Misra. When he had a toothache, "Ohhh, oh." You see? (break) ...cheap philosophy, by misunderstanding the whole world has become atheists, all rascals. Atheist means rascal number one, mūḍhāḥ, āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. As soon as one becomes atheist, he is rascal number one.
Prabhupāda: Everything, there are three qualities, everywhere.
Dr. Patel: More rajas is in monkeys because they are more active. (break)
Prabhupāda: They are researching for something which is useless. Therefore tamas. Rajas-tamo-bhavaḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). This is the effect of rajas tamas: kāma and lobha, greedy and always hankering after.
Dr. Patel: But sometimes real scientists speak out the truth. (break)
Prabhupāda: Don't give pain to others. Others, painful condition. If you feel pain by certain condition, that is...
Dr. Patel: Ātmavat sarva bhūteṣu.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. Animals cannot make (break) ...any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva-yoniṣu... Just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." That is not... If actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I insist on the first question I asked for. Your aim, your most important aim, if I understood it well, is to bring the faith and love for God to man. No? This is your first aim, to encourage man to be a...
Prabhupāda: Lover of God.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). As soon as you become a unalloyed devotee of God, all the good qualities will manifest in you. If the good qualities does not manifest in you, that means you are not yet perfect in God consciousness. Just like you European boys, American boys, why you have given... (break) ...one of the item is that good quality that "Why shall I give trouble, pain, to other animals?" This is within the God consciousness. Just like poor-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement. In the U.S.A also, Los Angeles, New York, we invite anyone, "Come and take food." We don't want to see that anyone is hungry. We don't want to see. So God consciousness means all the good ideas we are manufacturing, they will be manifested in God consciousness automatically. Therefore our duty should be, if we want to make all human being well-behaved, then we must try to make every one of them God conscious.
Prabhupāda: It must be zero: no eating, no sleeping, no bedding, nothing." He's thinking like that. Because he has got bad experience of his diseased condition, he thinks, "Again if there is eating, again if there is walking, then how it can be cured?" He cannot think of. These rascals, because they have no idea what is spiritual thinking, they want to make this thinking zero only. That's all. Śūnyavādī. They are called Śūnyavādī, nirvāṇa, Buddhist philosophy. "Your body is subjected to pains and pleasure; so dismantle this body." This is Buddha philosophy. "Make it zero. There will be no more pains and pleasure." "You have got some trouble in the eyes? Pluck it out." He does not know how to cure it. He simply knows, "Pluck it out." This is their philosophy. Asatyere satya kari māni. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's song.
Prabhupāda: So that is insanity. We are actually the living force, soul, but we are identifying at the present moment with the material body. Everyone is thinking, "I am Japanese, I am Englishman, I am German, I am Indian, I am white, I am black," but that is his insanity. So this insanity should be cured, that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And when he understand that he is spirit soul, he should be engaged in the business of the spirit soul. And because he is misidentifying himself with this body he is engaged with the bodily activities. So when he stops his bodily activities and he begins his spiritual activities, then he will be cured. So far bodily, I mean to say, pains and pleasure, that will be automatically cured when he understands that he is not body. Just like I feel heat and cold on account of this body. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: They believe that the soul and the body is one thing.
Prabhupāda: How it is one?
Karandhara: Well, they come to the point of trying to give up all material desires. But at that point they say there's nothing, there's no self...
Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance, or they do not understand, or they do not try to explain because the followers will not understand. That is our also point, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167), to become desireless. But after becoming desireless, what is it? Just like you become painless from the disease. That means painless means everything finished? Then let me enjoy this pain. After being painless means everything is finished. No. Painless means no material pain but spiritual life. That is painless. (French)
Karandhara: Their point is they come... Zen Buddhism or Buddhism goes as far as trying to obliterate the material ego.
Pṛthu Putra: He says for him, spiritual and material, they are going together. In spiritual is something material, and in material is something spiritual. And they are... Together they form harmony, and this harmony is the goal.
Prabhupāda: But he has no knowledge that although... Just like here is my leg, and here is my nail. Now when I cut the nail I don't feel, and as soon as you come little later, the skin, you feel pain. So they are one. But why there is no sensation, and why there is sensation? (French)
Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the analogy. He doesn't understand the example, how that explains spiritual life as compared to material life.
Prabhupāda: Then why... How he will understand? Let me know. I will tell him. Let me know how he will understand.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, being disgusted, he wanted to make everything zero. But if he hears that again sleeping, again eating, again evacuating is healthy life, he thinks it is something like his diseased condition. But healthy life is different from diseased life. So some philosophers, they are trying to negate this diseased condition only, without any realization of healthy life. So I think Buddha philosophy is called nirvāṇa, negation of this diseased condition of life, pains and pleasure. Am I right or wrong?
Professor Durckheim: You are certainly right. We see the... It is a big... In our work, as I see it, to realize that what from one point of view seems too bad, bad, for instance, illness or dying, what the natural ego does not like, if you goes through, it's also the threshold to quite a different reality.
Prabhupāda: Yes, different it is. The same example, as I gave you: In diseased condition the reality is something, and healthy condition, the reality is something else. But if we compare the reality of healthy life with the realities of diseased life, that will be a misconception.
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. And it is proved by science. Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he has got institute. A machine records how a tree feeling. You cut one tree. How it is feeling pain, that is recorded in the machine.
Haṁsadūta: They also hear sound. They made some experiment that when they grow plants with music, they grow more.
Prabhupāda: Oh, just see.
Prabhupāda: So the God, He is also with me always as friend. So one, it is said in the Upaniṣad, there are two birds in one tree. The two birds means I, individual soul, and God, the Supreme Soul. The individual soul is limited within this body. And God is everywhere, in every body, in every atomic particle, everywhere. Because I am individual soul, I can understand my bodily pains and pleasure. But I cannot understand your bodily pains and pleasure. But God, being all-pervading, He can understand my pains and pleasure, He can understand your pains and pleasure, He can understand cats' and dogs' pains and..., everyone. This is the difference between me and God. Sometimes they mistake, because God is also within this body, I am also within this body, therefore they think that there is no other individual soul than God, therefore I am God. So if I am God, then you are also God.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: They are pleasing and miserable in circumstances. Cold is very pleasing in the summer, and heat is very pleasing in winter. But same heat in summer is not pleasing, and same cold in winter, it is not pleasing. So what is the actual position of cold and heat? It is simply transforming as pleasure and pain according to circumstances. Otherwise it is neither painful, neither pleasing. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma iva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) ...has given me hundreds of such places but His order is "You cannot stay." (laughter) I'll tell you one humorous story in this connection. It is a little long. I don't wish to divert your attention. Very interesting story. That is also mentioned in the Bhagavad..., aniketa. One may have many nice places to live; still, he should think that "I have no place to live." That is one of the spiritual items.
Haṁsadūta: What is that story, Prabhupāda?
individuality? And if God expands Himself in everything, then He must be inside all of His creation.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difference, that God is situated in everywhere, but you are not situated everywhere. You are situated within your body. I am situated within my body. The pains and pleasure of my body, you cannot feel; neither I can feel the pains and pleasure... But God is everywhere. Therefore He can understand what is your pains and pleasure, what is my pains and pleasure, his pains and pleasure. That is unlimited. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, Find out, what is that verse? Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Kṣetra-jñam cāpi māṁ viddhi.
Hṛdayānanda:
- kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi
- sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata
- kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ
- yat taj jñānaṁ mataṁ mama
Prabhupāda: Read the purport. (break) Alma and Superalma. (laughter) God is Superalma. (laughter)
Guest (Hṛdayānanda): You have mentioned pain within the body. What is the origin of pain and the origin of imperfection?
Prabhupāda: Origin of pain means as soon as you come to the material world, is the origin of pain. Just like the... It can be appreciated very nicely. Just like water. Water is sometimes painful, and sometimes pleasing. Is it not? Do you agree or not? No, I just try to... Water is the same thing, but sometimes it is painful and sometimes it is pleasing, is it not? So how the same thing becomes pleasing and painful? This is circumstantial. The same thing is pleasing and the same thing is painful under different circumstances. Similarly, fire. Fire is sometimes pleasing and sometimes painful. The fire is the same, but circumstantially, it becomes painful and pleasing. Just like in winter season the fire is pleasing. And in summer season the same fire is painful. Now, these feelings of pains and pleasure is due to this material body. Therefore the material body is the cause of pains and pleasure. So if you do not get this material body—you remain in your spiritual body—then there is no more pains and pleasure. So that means the origin of pains and pleasure is to our attachment to this material body. If we can somehow or other get out of this material body, then there is no more pains and pleasure or it is simply pleasure. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, ānandamāyaḥ abhyāsāt. "By nature the spirit soul is joyful." In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati: (BG 18.54) "As soon as you become spiritually self-realized, then there is no more pains and pleasure." So pleasure means absence of pain. So in your spiritual identity there is no pain, therefore it is simply pleasure. Therefore our endeavor should be how to get our again original spiritual body. Spiritual body is there already. It is covered by the material body, but some way or other, if we stop the covering of the material body, then we are simply in pleasure. Therefore our only attempt in this human body should be how to revive our spiritual body. And that process is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That... Open that verse, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9).
Guest (Lady) (Hṛdayānanda): How can we relieve ourselves of material pain and live in spiritual pleasure?
Prabhupāda: Yes, as soon as you do not accept this material body, you have no connection with material pains and pleasure. (aside:) Get this light down.
Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He has understood from Bhagavad-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says that "As you approach Me, I present Myself." So in that sense can this movement be compared to also the consciousness of Christ, Christ consciousness.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have read in his Gītā.
Guest: Five thousand years ago it must have been true but now...
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is the verse, kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktā-sakta-cetasām (BG 12.5). So in explaining that śloka he said, "It was painful five thousand years ago, but it is not now painful. It has become easy." That means the version of Gītā can be changed after five thousand years. Then what is the importance of speaking by Kṛṣṇa if it is changeable like material things? then what is the authority of Kṛṣṇa? Is it changeable?
Guest: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Guest: It is the interpretation of the...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Amogha: Sometimes they claim that we should not claim that our choice is the true choice, but they don't understand that any of those meanings can be true at the same time.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this body is true. We have got body. We don't say it is false. It is true. Bodily pains and pleasures we feel, so how can I say that the body is false? The body means bodily pains and pleasures, then we are affected, so how you can say it is false? Similarly the mind, and soul is absolute thing. Factually. So any item you take, you can understand by thorough study.
Paramahaṁsa: In some cases, in a more controversial case, the word chosen, or the meaning chosen for a particular Sanskrit word, may change the whole meaning of the verse, but because...
Paramahaṁsa: And if they receive some cigarettes they'll smoke them.
Amogha: Yes, and if they receive-they'll take anything, they are so renounced. So isn't that more spiritual?
Prabhupāda: They have no idea what is spiritual. Buddhist religion is not a spiritual. It is material. If you kill me then I feel pain; therefore I shall not kill you. This is.
Amogha: Recently we received a letter from a Chinese man in Singapore. He wants all of your books. He wants to know how much.
Prabhupāda: Oh? You have supplied?
Amogha: Well I just received it. I will answer him and tell him the cost. I will supply him, yes.
Prabhupāda: Chinese man from?
Amogha: Singapore.
Prabhupāda: No.
Kim: ...an ātman without consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Consciousness is the symptom of ātmā. Because the ātmā is within your body, therefore your consciousness is there. Now, because the ātmā is within the body, if I pinch or if you pinch my body, I feel pains and pleasures. As soon as the ātmā is not there, it will be cut with a chopper, there is no protest. So, that ātmā is present within this body, that is understood by the presence of consciousness. Just like we are here in this room, but this light is the reflection of the sunshine. We understand there is sun in the sky. The light and heat we are feeling, that means the sun is in the sky. Similarly, our consciousness and knowledge, etc., are there, that means that the ātmā is there. The same ātmā, when it will go out of this body, there will be no more consciousness, no more knowledge, no more feelings of pains and pleasures.
Kim: Can one say what qualities the ātman has?
Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Eternity, knowledge and blissfulness.
Kim: And does Hindu philosophy say anything about...
Prabhupāda: Nature will force you that after forty years of age you must become old, and you must not remain so beautiful. This is forced. But no one wants that. No woman wants that "I shall look not beautiful and my flesh should be flabby and no more luster. I don't want all these things." Why it is forced?
Carol: Suffering and pain leads people to God, doesn't it?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Amogha: She says doesn't the suffering and pain lead people towards God?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the law, but we are so dull-headed that we do not enquire. That is my statement, that you should enquire "Who is forcing these things?" Then there is enquiry of God. First of all we must be... Just like a dog. He cannot understand. He's under chain. He's leading a life most dependent. And he is jolly. He is jumping here and there. That is dog's life. If the master kills him, he cannot do anything. But he is very jolly. He is jumping. That is dog's life. But not human life. Human life is that I am dependent in every step, still I am declaring independent. What is this nonsense? This enquiry should be there. He is dependent in every step, exactly like the cats and dogs, but he is claiming, "I am independent."
Śrutakīrti: That is in London. (pause)
Prabhupāda: (break) How they will serve? The proposal...(break) that how... (break) ...they have disco... (break) They have discovered so many machine, so many factories, so many... So how they will relieve the mankind? This proposal Vivekananda used, to serve the mankind. How they will serve? In spite of all arrangement there are so many suffering humanity, so many unemployment, so much disease, so much death. So what is the meaning of this serving? Huh? You cannot stop it. That is the nature's way. How you can stop by so-called bluffing that "We are serving the humanity"? You are opening hospital. Does it mean that the suffering is reduced? Because the suffering has increased therefore your number of hospitals have increased. Where is the mitigation? Nature's way, we are feeling pain, this cold wind. Who can stop it? And where is the question of decreasing human's suffering or stopping?
Amogha: By our technological inventions we can make a heater that makes the coldness...
Prabhupāda: But the heater is not curing the suffering.
Guest (2): Do they suffer withdrawal symptoms?
Paramahaṁsa: He says, "Do they suffer withdrawal symptoms?" Sometimes when a patient is giving up alcohol or drugs, he goes through various symptoms which are painful.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That should be... But unless... Find out this, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Rasa-varjaṁ raso 'py asya paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59).
Devotee (2): "The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness."
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Prabhupāda: Ātmā, yes, soul is ātmā. And the soul of the soul is God, Paramātmā.
Guest (2): Is it possible for us to communicate with plants?
Prabhupāda: With...?
Paramahaṁsa: With plants. Is it possible for us to communicate with plants?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they have done. Sir Jagadish Candra Bose in Calcutta, Bose Institute, he has proved—he has got machine—that they feel pains and pleasure, which is recorded in the machine. If you pluck one leaf, they feel. Immediately it is recorded in the machine.
Guest (2): Could I come back to that eating of meat? Related to this alive, soul, matter. Aren't you in a sense eating another soul too if you're eating vegetables? Not only if you're eating meat?
Prabhupāda: No, they will come and they will go away, that's all.
Yogi Bhajan: No, understand...
Prabhupāda: There will be... There will be no understanding. I know that. There will be no understanding. You can write it down in your notebook. They will come, and they will say, and they will go away, that's all. I have dealt with all these men very nicely. You see?
Yogi Bhajan: I understand the pain, but still...
Prabhupāda: And still you may go on, taking this pain.
Yogi Bhajan: Effort, effort. There is nothing wrong to put that honest effort. Because lot things you can say which I cannot say.
Prabhupāda: No, I do not say anything.
Yogi Bhajan: You have seen this.
Devotee (1): ...it's easier to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in sattva-guṇa one can see, one can understand his position. (break)
Devotee (2): Does he experience the miseries of the gross body when he's in sattva-guṇa, in the mode of goodness? Does he experience hunger and thirst, those things like that?
Prabhupāda: Gross body means no hunger?
Devotee (2): When a person's in sattva-guṇa, he's not so much feeling the pain...
Prabhupāda: He is not disturbed by the rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. That is sattva-guṇa. Naṣṭa-prayeṣv abhadreṣu (SB 1.2.18). He can be disturbed by rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa, but when he is in sattva-guṇa, he is not so much disturbed. And if he increase and go to the pure sattva-guṇa, suddha-sattva, then he is no more disturbed. At that time he can understand what is God. (break) ...you are strongly situated in sattva-guṇa, the other base qualities cannot disturb you. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). Other guṇa means lusty desires and greediness. This thing will be finished when you are strongly situated in sattva-guṇa. Then you go advance more and more. (break) ...hear about Kṛṣṇa, to chant about Kṛṣṇa, means cleansing, cleansing the dirty things of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa. (break) ...world is going on on rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa. Very minute quantity of population are by sattva-guṇa.
Brahmānanda: That is the one thing they cannot avoid. They cannot escape.
Prabhupāda: Why this arrangement is by nature? How they can change it?
Brahmānanda: Someone was telling me that there have been many instances that when women are being taken to the hospital to give birth to their children—they're in the ambulance, and they are experiencing the pains—that they are cursing their husbands, "Why you have given me this pain?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, because birth pain is very severe.
Brahmānanda: They vow never to have sex again at that time. But...
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That śloka I was... Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). To... The sex life and the aftereffects are full of miserable condition, so once they have sex life, they become, woman becomes pregnant, and the painful conditions are passed. But still, he or she is not satisfied, again takes the same thing, entailed by so many sufferings. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana. Because he has no knowledge, he commits means the same thing again.
Jagadīśa: Chewing the chewed.
Prabhupāda: Both of them suffer. But irresponsible father avoids, then the both suffering comes on the woman. She suffers the pain, birth pain, and suffers to raise the children. And the man goes away. How they are going to solve this problem? What is their answer? They become dependent on the man during sex life and purchases the pain, birth pain, and accuses the husband. And then, when the child is born she has to take care. The father may go away. The mother cannot give up the care of the children. Out of affection, she is carrying two child. So these are the aftereffects. So can the woman avoid sex, which is entailed with so much sufferings? She submits. Where is the independent woman? Therefore, if one is spiritually advanced, then she becomes.
Prabhupāda: There is no disease? Why you are anxious about the cancer, the big disease? India may be suffering from small disease, and because you are suffering from big disease, therefore you are big. "We... I am suffering from big disease." First of all become diseaseless, then talk of that India is suffering and you are not suffering. You are big, and you are suffering from big disease, that's all. (break)
Brahmānanda: The wife of the president Ford, she has gotten cancer, and she had to have operation, very painful.
Prabhupāda: Big man, big disease, big pain.
Brahmānanda: Yes. The president could not protect his own wife.
Jayādvaita: The vice-president's also.
Prabhupāda: Vice-president?
Jayādvaita: His wife also.
Jagannātha-suta: Rockefeller.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Dhṛṣṭaketu: I put myself in this condition of illusion so that I can enjoy being liberated.
Prabhupāda: And so you put yourself to be kicked by me and enjoy. Just test what is the enjoyment of being kicked.
Dhanañjaya: But without pain how can you experience pleasure?
Prabhupāda: You get this experience, how it is pleasure? I kick and you enjoy?
Dhṛṣṭaketu: The idea is that after experiencing the suffering of this material world then liberation will be very...
Prabhupāda: Why there is suffering, material? You are supreme; why it is suffering for you?
Dhṛṣṭaketu: Well, so that when I...
Prabhupāda: Now these rascal Westerners, there the women claiming equal rights. Change that the man will give birth to a child and not the woman.
Kartikeya: Equal right.
Prabhupāda: Equal rights. Make agreement. "Once you beget; once I shall." (laughs) Make this contract. Then it is equal right. If the woman has to give birth of a child and she has to suffer all the pains thereof, then where is the equal right? Where is equal right? Nature has said, "You must suffer." The husband, the so-called husband, will give birth, er, will utilize you for sex satisfaction, and you will be pregnant, and he will go away and you will suffer the whole life to maintain the child, welfare—"Give me some money"—or this or that. Where is equal right? He is free. He has gone away. Huh? This is general experience in the Western countries.
Brahmānanda: "Unwed mothers."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And she cannot also check that "I shall not become mother." For sex appetite she will agree, and the man will go away and she will suffer. Is that civilization?
Cyavana: To the park, straight.
Prabhupāda: Comfort, where is your comfort? Why you have so many medical men if you are comfortable? Why there are so many drugs, medicine, if you are comfortable? This is māyā. He is not in comfort; still, he will say that "I am in comfort." This is called māyā, illusion.
Brahmānanda: So these drugs, even though one may be feeling pain, he can take the drugs and he won't feel pain.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He will take injection. It is comfort. Daily he will take injection, and it is comfort. (laughter) Just see the fools and rascals. Mūḍha. (break) ...met so many medical men, doctors and quack. "Die comfortably." What is the use of this medical man, medicine? What is the use? If your comfort and death is comfortable, then why spend so much money? Die comfortably. Because you cannot check death, then why you are trying to check death? "Let me live some years more. Let me take this medicine." Why? Why this struggle? Die comfortably. Suffer disease comfortably.
Prabhupāda: This is going on. Still, even the opposite party, they are not disgusted—"This material life is not very peaceful." They are not disgusted.
Brahmānanda: Now they are thinking, "We'll be independent..."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That... They are trying to be independent. And India... Just like India has got independent, and now the position is "emergency." They do not think in this way, that "Independence or dependence, we are actually dependent under the laws of nature." That they do not think. They are thinking... The same example as I gave, that "This boil is here. Why not here? It is very painful," like that. They have no sense that so-called dependence or independence, he has to suffer. That he does not know. Mūḍha nābhijānāti.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains, vāsudeva sarvam iti, that He is everything and that He is everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, if every moment we are killing in breathing and walking and doing so many things, and then it says, "Thou shalt not kill," so then hasn't God given us an instruction which is impossible?
Prabhupāda: No. Conscientiously you should not. But unconsciously, if you do, that is excused. (break) ...na punar baddhyate(?). Āhlādinī-śakti, it is pleasure potency. So pleasure potency is not painful to Kṛṣṇa. But it is painful. It is painful to us, conditioned souls. This Golden Moon (name of a bar?), everyone comes there for pleasure, but he is becoming implicated in sinful activities. Therefore it is not pleasure. It will give him pain, so many aftereffects. Sex life, even it is not illicit, still, it is painful, aftereffects. You'll have to take care of the children. You have to bear children. That is painful. You have to pay to the hospital for delivery, then education, then doctor's bill—so many painful. So this pleasure, sex pleasure, is followed by so many painful things. Tāpa-karī. The same pleasure potency is there in the living being in little quantity, and as soon as they utilize it, it becomes painful. And the same pleasure potency in the spiritual world, Kṛṣṇa's dancing with gopīs, that is not painful. That is pleasing. (break) ...man, if he takes nice foodstuff it is painful. If a diseased man, if he takes...
Cyavana: He becomes more sick.
Prahupada: So why it is not reflecting to other planets, only to the moon? Why special advantage to the moon? They have no reason. All rascals' philosophy. Why particularly to the moon? Why not others? Simply theories and mental speculation. They have no scientific. And the śāstra definitely gives the distance of the moon from the sun planet-1,600,000 miles. Then similarly (sic:) 1,600 million up, the Mars, then Venus, then..., everything. And moon is specifically mentioned that "It is so brilliant because there is fire, blazing fire. And the blazing fire is so illuminating that even at night it looks white, bright." This is reasonable because... Not that it is being reflected by the sun. The sun can reflect other planets, but it is there, fire. Just like sun there is fire, similarly, moon there is fire. The sun is not covered by cool atmosphere, but the moon is covered by cool atmosphere. Therefore it is pleasing. When there is sunshine and breeze, it is very pleasing. And no sunshine, simply breezing—it is not pleasing. And only sunshine, there is no cool atmo... That is also painful. But sunshine and breezing is very pleasing. So there is, like sunshine, blazing fire and surrounded by cool atmosphere. Therefore the moon is so pleasing.
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara dāsa?
Harikeśa: Yes. He was saying... And when he got out of the Army he had so much pain in his teeth he went to a dentist, and he took out all of his teeth. That's why he has no teeth, because all of his teeth had these little things inside them. And one...
Prabhupāda: He is in Bombay now?
Harikeśa: Yes, he's the gardener, you know, the one who gives you the flower every morning.
Prabhupāda: So he was troubled.
Prabhupāda: Any woman should be looked upon as mother. This is culture. Except his married wife, all women should be treated as mother. The brahmacārīs were taught like that, "Mother." This is culture. Simply they are trying to elope other's wife, other's woman, exploit them. And they're cultured. There is no culture at the present moment. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: "And others' money should be treated just like pebbles in the street." Nobody cares for it. So they are simply making plans how to grab others' money. And Ātmavat sarva bhūteṣu: "And if you feel pains and pleasure, you should consider for others also." If your throat is cut, then do you feel very happy? Why you are cutting the throats of the poor animals? Where is culture? There is no culture. Simply rogues and thieves and rascals and fools. Where is culture? They do not know what is the meaning of culture.
Harikeśa: The rhinoceros or hippopotamus or some... You're trying to shoot some big animal, and if you can't do it everybody will say, "Oh, he could never do it anyway." And if he does it they all praise?
Prabhupāda: No, no, to kill animal is not very heroic. Nonsense. Innocent animal wandering and you kill. "Oh, very great hero." Again he deserves to be kicked on the face. All action, they are simply rewarded with kicking on the face. Why should you kill animal? Ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. If you are killed, you feel pain. Why should you kill others unnecessarily? (break) ...here?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not here, I don't think. A golf course is not a private place.
Prabhupāda: So we shall return? No?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If you like.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we see that how they have invented various ways of wasting time, which is so valuable. That is our view.
Indian: To them time is nothing because time is eternity after all.
Prabhupāda: Time is eternity, but your formation is not eternity. Your formation is temporary. Time is eternity. (aside:) Thank you. No. Time is eternity, that's a fact, but your formation... Asann api klesada asa deha. It is temporary. That's all right. You know, I know, everyone. But it will simply give you pains, although it is asat. That you do not know. Time is... Body is temporary, but so long the body is there, you have to suffer. That body may be a ant's body or Brahma's body.
Prabhupāda: Sukhaṁ jivet.
Dr. Patel: enaṁ kṛtva ghṛtaṁ pibet.
Prabhupāda: Kutaḥ punar agamano abhavet.
Nanda-kumara: Harikeśa, he is feeling sick. He has a bad headache. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...you have come? As soon as he has come, he is feeling headache. (laughter) (break) ...and pain in the stomach is very good disease. Nobody can see. (laughter) If I say, "I am feeling headache," you cannot see. I can sleep very nicely. And pain in the stomach, you cannot see. These two diseases are beyond the physician's limit.
Indian man (3): And these are common disease.
Prabhupāda: Why the other day you told me, "I am now not... I cannot see. My brain is..."? Is it not beating with shoes? (laughter) Eh? Don't you agree?
Indian man (5): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Huh? Everyone, but they are so rascal.
Harikeśa: One famous psychologist, psychiatrist, said there is a pleasure and pain principle, that everyone wants as much pleasure as possible and as little pain as possible. So because we have to suffer and enjoy, why not make enjoyment as much as possible and reduce the suffering? (break)
Prabhupāda: They are vacant?
Haṁsadūta: No, they look occupied.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That adjustment is not solution.
Akṣayānanda Swami: You said once, putting the weight from your head to your shoulder.
Prabhupāda: Ha?
Akṣayānanda Swami: You are carrying a heavy weight I remember you said once. You're carrying heavy weight here, to take the pain you put it here. Then again back here. But still the weight is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no education. Real education is not there. Just like Cānakya Paṇḍita, he was not a spiritual man, but he was a prime minister. Still, he gave the standard of becoming educated. He said,
- mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
- para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
- ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu
- yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ
Here is paṇḍita. What is he? Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: he sees every woman as mother, except his own wife. And para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: and other's property, possessions, just like garbage. And atmavat-sarva bhūteṣu: and feeling for everyone as he himself is feeling the pains and pleasures. If one has attained this stage, then he is considered educated. He never says these degrees. No.
Dr. Patel: These degrees are artifacts.
Prabhupāda: That we shall do conveniently. It is not very urgent. When there is spare room-then. Medical service is to cure the material disease, not this temporary headache and stomachache. There are so many medical services for these things, but where is the medical service for curing bhava-roga, material disease? That is wanted. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Medical service does not give any guarantee that there will be no more disease. Our service is guarantee, there will be no more birth, death, old age and disease. That is the difference. (pause) Mauritius, I was suffering so much from dental pain, I never went to the dentist; I invented my medicine, and it cured. (laughter)
Harikeśa: Now everyone else is using it here.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: I taught them all, and they're all using it now. Or they will all be using it.
Prabhupāda: They like it?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: ...I have to find out...
Prabhupāda: Then the aim is to enjoy life.
Harikeśa: Yes. So I have to find out the means to enjoy, and to negate the pain and to make the pleasure more.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's very nice proposal, but whether, at the present moment, or in the history, whether a man is enjoying life or suffering?
Harikeśa: Well, men, men have actually never really enjoyed because they never understood enough about themselves. They were never able to overcome their difficulties due to ignorance.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee (1): Yes, "of others." So who can see like loṣṭravat...
Prabhupāda: That is para-drav...
Devotee (1): ...rubbish, or like rubbish, cannot take, cannot pick up. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu: "Every living entity," ātmavat, "like he himself."
Prabhupāda: Yes, as we feel pains and pleasures...
Devotee (1): Sa yaḥ paśyati: "Who can see like that..."
Prabhupāda: ...they should know the others also will feel. If my throat is cut, I feel, and "Why shall I cut the throat of another, poor animal?" This is learned man. And this rascal, maintaining slaughterhouse, and learned man? And they cannot understand. And big, big priests, they'll defend: "Oh, this 'Thou shalt not kill' means it is meant for the men, not for the ani..." They'll put arguments. Christ says clearly, "Thou shall not kill" and they will defend.
Trivikrama: Even abortion they are defending.
Prabhupāda: So do you mean a fly coming and crow passing stool is the same thing? Very good sense.
Guest (3): Well, flies leave mess.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually, it was painful to see the flies.
Devotee (4): That's why they have the whisk you see. We try to whisk the flies away.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You can try as much as possible...
Guru-kṛpā: Happiness of the fool.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Sometimes they say that pain is part of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them say, because they will have to suffer. Unless they think like that, how they will suffer?
Devotee (2): When one takes to spiritual life, is it the result of material exhaustion, or is it simply the guru's mercy on him, and nothing else?
Prabhupāda: Two ways. One is called sādhana-siddhi. One is called kṛpā-siddhi. What is your question?
Devotee (2): If when one comes to spiritual life, is he coming because of material exhaustion, so much pain in the material world, so therefore he's searching?
Prabhupāda: Voluntary.
Devotee (2): Voluntary.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2): Ah.
Prabhupāda: (to Rāmeśvara) That is the purpose you can explain.
Rāmeśvara: The purpose of our, of our seeking the growth is so that people all over the world can become happy again. People who are suffering due to lack of knowledge about who they are and what their relationship is with God, and as a result of that ignorance, they're performing so many activities which cause them pain and misery, so that they can become happy again.
Reporter: Ah. How is..., how will this be achieved?
Rāmeśvara: Oh. It is actually Kṛṣṇa's mercy...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: ...that He allows Him to feel the pain.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: Purifies his desires.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But he doesn't have to feel the pain if he's obedient.
Rāmeśvara: If he insists.
Prabhupāda: He gives instruction. Just like I said, "Don't touch. It will hurt your finger. It is not good." "No, no." "So all right, touch."
Rādhāvallabha: Yes, two, one girl here got it. Another girl was suspected of having it.
Prabhupāda: What is the symptom?
Rādhāvallabha: Generally, with women, they get some lump...
Rāmeśvara: Pain, the symptom is lump and great pain. Cancer is said to be some bacteria or virus cells that are inside the body, eating the body organs.
Rādhāvallabha: The cells increase, the cancer cells increase, and they take the place of the regular bodily cells, but they themselves are worthless.
Rāmeśvara: And the only idea they have for curing cancer is to cut out the diseased area from the body, remove that part of the body.
Devotee: Kill it with X-ray.
Richard: Umhm. Okay.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we are not afraid of death. That is another thing. But generally, people, they are actually. Are you not afraid of disease?
Richard: I would not wish to be in great pain or agony, no.
Prabhupāda: But there is pain, as soon as you are in disease, there is great pain.
Richard: Uh, yes, but there are quick deaths and there are slow deaths.
Prabhupāda: No. Everyone is afraid of this. Are you not afraid of old age and invalidity?
Richard: Not particularly. I mean, it's a part of life.
Prabhupāda: You are liberated. (devotees laugh)
Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said you are liberated.
Prabhupāda: No, we are not irresponsible to the death. Death, although we have to meet death, we are making provision that after death we become happy. Happy, of course, for us, even in living condition or dead condition, there is happiness, but it will take time to understand. But taking superficially, death is not very pleasing, so after death, that is mentioned in the Bha.... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9), we do not get again a material body. This is final. The material body is the cause of pains and pleasure. So if you don't get the material body, if you remain in your spiritual body, that is real enjoyment.
Richard: But then why do you fear this death of the physical body?
Hari-śauri: And the daughter?
Prabhupāda: Daughter is also son. Son and daughter are the same position. If they are not educated, they become burden. Apaṇḍita, means not educated. Then they become burden, simply eyesore. That is another place he states: varam eko guṇī putro na ca mūrkha-śatair api. Ko 'rthaḥ putreṇa jātena yo na vidvān na bhaktimān. What is the use of such children, of son, who is neither a devotee nor a learned man? So, kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ vā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam. Just like blind eyes. What is the use of it? It is simply pains giving. You have got eyes, but if it is diseased, cataract or something, so what is the use of possessing these eyes? Sometimes it becomes so painful that the doctors, they pluck out. You know that? They get out the eyes completely, and decorate with a false eye. This is very delicate place. Even a small grain enters, it gives so much trouble. So if the eye itself is diseased, it is very, very painful. Therefore sometimes he plucks out. Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ vā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam.
Hari-śauri: One of the peacocks has opened its tail.
Prabhupāda: The real problem of life is birth, death, old age and disease. They do not understand this. They are so.... Just like animals. Animal does not understand what is birth, death, old age and disease. Real problem is there, but they are so dull-headed that their attention is diverted from the real problem. Temporary problems, they are busy. Just like, one major disease, one is suffering from a major disease. On account of that, he has sometimes headache, sometimes pain here, sometimes so many, minor. So, because we are subjected to meet death, so these minor conditions are there. The real problem is after suffering, suffering, suffering, suffering, when the body is no more able to bear suffering, it dies. Just like one man commits suicide. When he cannot control himself from the suffering, he voluntarily commits suicide. So death is the ultimate suffering. But we do not want suffering. Therefore problem is death. But who is anxious to solve this problem? They are not intelligent even. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). They do not know even what are the problems. Hmm?
Jayādvaita: They say that's life. They say that's what life is.
Prabhupāda: Just like pains and pleasure. You know your bodily pains and pleasure, I know my body. But I do not know your bodily pains, neither you know mine. But God knows everyone's pains and pleasures. That is the difference between God and individual soul.
Hari-śauri: "This body is called kṣetra, and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities, and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and weight was so much. (pause) The time was not so bad. If you take some cash, thousand, two thousand rupees with you, you can safely walk on the street. Now if somebody knows that he has got thousand rupees cash with him, maybe he will be killed. The bank, they are so much afraid, they keep police in bank, police guard, always.
Hari-śauri: They have so much security systems and TV cameras. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...not working?
Hari-śauri: Is there any kind of a pain killer or anything?
Prabhupāda: No.
Hari-śauri: Nothing we can get from India or anything like that?
Prabhupāda: No, don't worry. It will be....
Jagadīśa: You feeling headache?
Prabhupāda: No, there is some pain. My teeth are now useless. So it is all rotten now. Sometimes it becomes acute. There is no strength in the teeth. Some of them, fifty percent, have already fallen. Therefore I cannot eat.
Jagadīśa: I think that a very nutritious diet can be made just from liquids.
Prabhupāda: Liquids, yes. Milk is the best food. Children, when there is no teeth, milk is the food. In Western country also, I think old men, they take milk and puffed rice. Is it?
Hari-śauri: Yes, soft foods anyway.
Prabhupāda: When they heard in the hell there is no newspaper, then came to the idea, "Oh, it is horrible." Otherwise, cold, dark, "Oh, this is our custom. We are already accustomed to these habits, we are working in the mine. So don't make any distinction between hell and our present residential quarters. But if there is no newspaper, certainly that is hell."
Pradyumna:
- naiṣkarmyam apy acyuta-bhāva-varjitaṁ
- na śobhate jñānam alaṁ nirañjanam
- kutaḥ punaḥ śaśvad abhadram īśvare
- na cārpitaṁ karma yad apy akāraṇam
"Knowledge of self-realization, even though freed from all material affinity, does not look well if devoid of a conception of the infallible God. What then is the use of fruitive activities, which are naturally painful from the very beginning and transient by nature if they are not utilized for the devotional service of the Lord?" Purport. "As referred to above, not only ordinary literatures devoid of the transcendental glorification of the Lord are condemned, but also Vedic literatures and speculation on the subject of impersonal Brahman when they are devoid of devotional service. When speculation on the impersonal Brahman is condemned on the above ground, then what to speak of ordinary fruitive work, which is not meant to fulfill the aim of devotional service. Such speculative knowledge and fruitive work cannot lead one to the goal of perfection. Fruitive work, in which almost all people in general are engaged, is always painful, either in the beginning or at the end. It can only be fruitful when made subservient to the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is confirmed that the result of such fruitive work may be offered for the service of the Lord, otherwise it leads to material bondage. The bona fide enjoyer of the fruitive work is the Personality of Godhead. And thus when it is engaged for the sense gratification of the living entities, it becomes an acute source of trouble."
Prabhupāda: Certainly.
- tapasā brahmacaryeṇa
- śamena damena va
- tyāgena sattva-śaucābhyāṁ
- yamena niyamena vā
- (SB 6.1.13)
To advance in spiritual life these things are essential, tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily accepting something which may be painful. Just like we are recommending no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating. So those who are accustomed to these bad habits, for them, in he beginning it may be a little difficult. But in spite of becoming difficult, one has to do it. That is called tapasya. To rise early in the morning, those who are not practiced, it is a little painful, but one has to do it. So this is called tapasya. So according to the Vedic injunction, there are some tapasyas that must be done. It is not, "I may do it or not do it." It must be done.
Devotee: "I've succeeded not on account of my painful effort, but by the grace of God. Like a sudden flash of lightning, the riddle happened to be solved. I myself cannot say but when the conducting thread which connected what I previously knew with what made my success possible."
Prabhupāda: So the chance theory is the grace of God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Grace of God?
Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya, that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain.
Prabhupāda: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest.
Prabhupāda: Not for beauty rest. (laughter)
Devotee (4): There's a kind of pain also, like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something, you know, dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be angry...
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help.
Devotee (4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but... Everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We take bitter medicine just to cure our existence.
Prabhupāda: Just explain.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Too fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajña vai viṣṇu. Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is perishable. When we come to the understanding of ātmā, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, then we understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles. As Prabhupāda said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more and more ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), when the heart becomes cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable (indistinct). Kṛṣṇa says, "Be happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupāda gives the example of someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for someone who is irregular. For.... Engaged in bodily identification of life. But gradually it becomes more and more pleasing.
Prabhupāda: Practical.
Prabhupāda: Therefore He says kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. God is present along with the living entity, I or you, in everything. I know the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body, but God knows the pains and pleasure of your body, my body, his body, this body, that body. That is the difference between God and you. These things are explained. Go on, read it.
Prabhupāda: So what is the duty of the finger? To serve the whole body. I order the finger "Please come here," immediately it does like this. So the finger, being part and parcel of the body, it is the duty of the finger to serve the whole body. When the finger is unable to give any service, then it is diseased. If there is some pain in the finger, I want to use this finger for some purpose, to pick up this flower, I cannot do it, that means it is diseased. Similarly, we living entities, part and parcel of God, when we are unable to give service to the Supreme, that is our diseased condition. That is not normal condition. And when we are actually able to give service to God, that is our healthy condition. So in the materialistic way of life we are diseased.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Isn't it in the sense the material concept?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Devotee (2): ...have to cultivate this tolerance, not only a physical pain, but sometimes other pains.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) tṛṇād api sunīcena. Tolerance when they (indistinct), everyone is (indistinct), he doesn't (indistinct). Taror api sahiṣṇunā. You have to learn these things.
Rūpānuga: Lord Caitanya says if we are tolerant then we can chant the holy name of the Lord purely.
Prabhupāda: And we laugh at us, so what is the wrong? We laugh at them. We tell them. So that struggle will go on.
Rūpānuga: But we will laugh last.
Devotee (1): No, they'll say, "You're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, but I can give you this pill and I'll take away your pain," or, "I can give you this medicine and correct your disease. You're chanting, but I am not seeing a practical result."
Prabhupāda: No, I will say, "because I'm chanting you, you are my servant, you have brought the pill. (laughter) Because I am chanting, therefore Kṛṣṇa has sent the pill through you."
Prabhupāda: So people presented that "Here is animal killing recommended in the yajña." Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. So this Buddha incarnation is cheating the atheist class of men. He said that "Don't kill animals. If you are killed you feel pain. Why you should kill animals?" That was his mission, to stop animal killing, sinful activities. So what was your question?
Indian man (4): I just asked why he has preached impersonal form of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So long the soul is there, the consciousness is there.
Bali-mardana: Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Not Kṛṣṇa cons..., immediately Kṛṣṇa conscious. Consciousness is there. Just like so long the soul is there, you pinch any part of your body—you'll feel pain. That is consciousness. And when the soul is gone out of the body, If you cut the hand, there will be no consciousness.
Rāmeśvara: Did you mean to ask whether the ultimate state of consciousness is within us that has to be brought out?
Interviewer: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Why negative? It is the fact. That is the positive understanding. Why do you take negative? If you are suffering and if you say, if I say, "Don't suffer," is that negative or that is positive?
Bali-mardana: In other words, if you are suffering and I tell you "Don't suffer," it may sound negative but actually it's positive.
Prabhupāda: Yes, positive. But they are rascals, they are taking as negative.
Interviewer: Why is work in the world necessarily suffering? It is, it has, a mixture of pain and joy but it's negative to look on it as useless work. Huh?
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are envious of the Kṛṣṇa conscious men. They do not see that "These people, they are not hammering like us." So therefore they are thinking that there is no contribution of hammering. They think the hammering is the real business.
Interviewer: That's pretty good. (laughter) I think people understand the analogy, they think hammering is the business. What do you think is the business?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Prabhupāda: So let there be one child, but he must be like Prahlāda, like Dhruva Mahārāja, and then child production is beneficial. Otherwise, if we beget children like cats and dogs, what is the use? That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. Another example is given: ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā-sahasrasaḥ. If there is one moon in the sky, it is sufficient to give light to the whole sky. What is the use of millions of stars? So, it is very good that you can take care of one child and make him a great devotee and learned scholar. Then it is successful. So Dr. Bhagat, I get some pain. It is...
Prabhupāda: The problem that "I do not want to die, but I'll be enforced to die," so what is the advancement in this connection? They might have, so big, big scientists, they have discovered many, many things, but where is that thing that "Take a pill and you'll never die. Take a pill, you'll never become diseased"? They can offer me... I had some abdominal pain, so they have given me dozens of medicine. But still they are not sure whether the pain will be cured. This is their science. So in this way things are going on, in ignorance, mūḍha. Therefore they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā as mūḍha.
Prabhupāda: One, you are, and another, I am. So what is the difference between you and me?" That you know simply everything, not everything, but to some extent, about your body, but I know everything of everyone's body. That is the difference. I know the pleasure and pains of my body, you know the pleasure and pains of your body, but Kṛṣṇa knows the pleasure and pains of your body and pleasure and pains of my body. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is situated... Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped in one place. Kṛṣṇa, He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (Bs. 5.37). That is Kṛṣṇa. I am sitting here; you are sitting here.
Prabhupāda: I did not take anything, tablet. Rather, what one I was taking, I have stopped that also.
Jayatīrtha: You do not put very much faith in these doctors.
Prabhupāda: What this medicine will help?
Hari-śauri: Most of the medicine he gave was to dull your senses so much that you wouldn't feel any pain, or would make you sleep for six hours at a time or, like this.
Prabhupāda: So in the village how many devotees are there?
Bhagavān: At the farm? Almost two hundred.
Prabhupāda: Oh, very good.
Bhagavān: They are waiting for you. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: That is neophyte stage. Just like a small child, he simply wants to take supply from the father. But when the child is grown up and he's educated, he wants to see "How I can supply the order of parents." That is good stage. "My parents have taken so much pain to raise me, now I am educated, now they are old man..." Sentiment, I am speaking, this family sentiment. "I must see my..." (someone enters) Come on. The whole day. That is the stage of love, that "I have taken supplies from my father so long, now I must supply the order of the father." That is the stage of love. I'll not take. I have taken so much, sufficient. Now I'll not take anything from my parents, I shall simply supply what they want. That is good son, loving son. That is perfection of spiritual or religious life, when we love God and we are prepared to sacrifice anything for God. That is perfection. So, whole day you were engaged?
Atreya Ṛṣi: Kṛṣṇa's mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Hari-śauri: In Bombay we made the last one.
Harikeśa: No, that big batch last I made in Sanand. When you went to that Sanand above Ahmedabad, where that king had his palace, we stayed in that palace. That's when I made that big batch. But first it was developed in Durban.
Prabhupāda: Durban, yes. Because there was no possibility of using (indistinct-word for stick toothbrush). My teeth broken, and it became painful, it was not working. Therefore I invented. But it is effective.
Harikeśa: You said on account of this toothpaste... Your teeth were so rotten they want to fall out, but the toothpaste won't allow them.
Prabhupāda: Kleśa. Material body means kleśa, suffering. Why you are using this fan? Because without fan the body will be in pain, painful condition. So we are adjusting, trying to counteract. But the position is miserable. Therefore whole plan of Vedic civilization—how to avoid this material body. That is called mokṣa. That is the plan. So Ṛṣabhadeva is advising that nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). People have become mad, and they're doing everything which is not sanctioned by the śāstra. Pramatta. Pramatta means mad. And why they have become mad? Indriya-prītaye, for sense gratification.
Indian man (3): But dress is the body. Dress is the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: We have to put up with so much pain for it. You see, we're not this body and to forget that we're not this body, but still every minute we're given pain to remember that this body is there.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Devotee: You stub your toe and it gives so much pain just for something so small.
Prabhupāda: That you are eating? (pause) So water is wasted.
Hari-śauri: Yes, it's dripping still.
Prabhupāda: So because He is breathing and I am breathing, therefore equal. No. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ. He sees, but not like us. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He's seeing every particular thing, anywhere. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu. I can see within my limit, or I can feel pains and pleasure within my... But He knows everything, everywhere. Sarva-kṣetreṣu. And because I cannot become like Him, therefore Māyāvādīs say kalpana, "This is imagination." He wants to make God like himself, and he wants to become like God. Therefore all description about God he thinks imagination, kalpana. Kalpana. Dr. Frog. Huh? More than this water, the...? How it is possible? Atlantic Ocean, very very big. What is that big? Maybe four feet, five, yes. Otherwise kalpana. It it is not within his "feet" estimation, then he's kalpana, imagination.
Prabhupāda: Universal soul is spirit, and you are also spirit. That sense, you are one. But universal soul is different from you. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that there are two souls within the body. One soul is the individual soul, and the other soul is the Supersoul. That Supersoul is universal soul, and the individual soul, you are individual soul. As soul, the quality is the same, but you are individual soul, and Lord is universal soul. There, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated clearly, kṣetra-kṣetrajña. Kṣetrajña is the soul; kṣetra is this body. So kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "I am also kṣetrajña, soul, but sarva-kṣetreṣu. You individual soul, you know the pleasure, pains, of your body, but you do not know what are the pleasure and pains of my body." Do you know?
Indian man (2): No, sir.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are individual. You know the pleasure and pains of your body. I know the pleasure and pains of my body. But there is another soul; that is Supersoul. Sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He knows your pleasure, pains. He knows my pleasure and pains. He knows everyone's pleasure and pains. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Therefore, as soul they are one in quality, but in consciousness they're different. He knows everyone's pleasure and pains; I know my pleasure and pain.
Indian man (2): My humble prayer was that by doing japa, by doing meditation, by doing bhakti-mārga, need we go to jñāna-mārga also, or bhakti-mārga is enough by itself? That was my humble supplication.
Indian man (4): Does the soul which passes from body to body, does it or he experience the pains and pleasures of my body?
Prabhupāda: Certainly. You just strike one dog—"Ka! Ka! Ka!" Why? Does not feel pain? And Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved even the trees, they feel pains and pleasure.
Indian man (4): It may be the soul which...
Prabhupāda: It is the stage. It is stage. Just like the tree. If you cut, it does not feel so much pains and pleasure as a human being. It is the development of consciousness. So in human form of body the consciousness is developed. Therefore he can understand what is his position. And therefore for human being there are śāstras—the Vedas, the Purāṇas—to understand his position. The tree cannot take advantage of the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. A cat cannot take advantage.
Indian man (4): Even an animal cannot.
Prabhupāda: That is Supersoul. That Supersoul is—the distinction between soul and the Supersoul is this, that we are individual soul.... I know about the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body, but I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body, you do not know the pains or pleasure of my body. The Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of all bodies. That is the distinction. Ātmā, Paramātmā. So these things can be understood in the human form of life. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. If we want to educate the cats and dogs that "My dear dog, you are not this body.
Prabhupāda: This blood pressure is troubling. (break) They are chanting, "Say Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) They're taking, "Mind control."
Haṁsadūta: Yeah, mind control.
Prabhupāda: Ordinarily they cannot charge anything, mind control brainwashing, subtle thing. Just like I, "I am sick." "How you are feeling?" "I am feeling some pain." (indistinct) Who is going to see? (laughter) Who can say? It is like that.
Haṁsadūta: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: If you say that, I am feeling some pain in this brain or in there, who is going to see?
Haṁsadūta: Yeah, who can prove it?
Prabhupāda: So one can say that "Even though it is a fact that my brother is not this body, but still, I see that I am killing the body of my brother. That is painful. How can I kill my brother? That is very painful." So that is, answer is there, that this kind of pain will continue. This is on the body. It is not on the soul. That He's explaining. The point is one, that "Your brother, whom you are calling brother, that you mistakenly you are taking the body of your brother as your brother." So everything is explained. But the point is one. There cannot be many. The same point is being explained in so many varieties of ways. But the point is there.
Prabhupāda: No, who says, they are rascals. They are rascals. We take them as rascals, that's all. How you can say that you are all-pervading? Can you say that? Even if you are very highly elevated, can you say what I am thinking? Then how do you claim God? God is all-pervading. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). You have read Bhagavad-gītā. There are two kṣetras-jñas. One kṣetra-jña, just like I am, you are. They are kṣetra-jña. I know about my pains and pleasures of my body. You know. But I do not know what is pains and pleasure of your body. You do not know what is pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore there is difference. But God knows. That is the difference between you and God. How you claim God? You do not know what is the pains and pleasures of my body. You know the pains and pleasure of your body. I know the pains and pleasure of my body. But either you or me, we do not know the pains and pleasures of all bodies. And Kṛṣṇa says kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He knows everyone's pains and pleasure. That is the difference between you and Him.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda;: Yes. Just like this finger is the part and parcel of my body. So this finger, I say, "Finger come here. Itch here," so it is doing that. And if it is... If it cannot do, then it is diseased. If there is some painless, painfulness or some sore, then immediately I cannot do it. So that means I am part and parcel of God. If I cannot serve God, then I am diseased. That is material condition. So material condition... Suppose this finger is diseased. So you poke up, applying some ointment and going to the doctor. This is one business. And when it is cured, when it is actually engaged in service, that is healthy state. So this social work without serving God is just like applying ointment to the diseased part of the... It has no value, practical value.
Prabhupāda: Well, physical, mental... That's right. You are so intelligent that you make distinction between physical and mental. They're all manifestation(?). You are so intelligent. Without mental, is there any physical? Then why you engage psychologist? There may be physical madman. Why you take him at psychologist? Why? Now you're discriminating mental and physical. If mental has nothing to do with physical, then why you employ psychologist to cure a madman from physical violence? You are so fool. Without mental pain, there is no physical pain. Without mental derangement, there is no physical disturbance. Who commits suicide? Who commits murder unless he's mentally deranged? You are very intelligent, that you want to make differentiation between physical and mental. There is differentiation. But cure physically.(?) Naturally they'll become sound. Otherwise why so many psychologists, psychiatrists, are employed in your country?
Prabhupāda: Dog fighting.
Rāmeśvara: And even the most popular sport in America now is football. It is more popular than baseball, and it's based on men jumping on each other. While one team is carrying the ball, every... A very violent sport.
Hari-śauri: And boxing also. So many different sports.
Rāmeśvara: They are fascinated by pain and fighting.
Prabhupāda: Torture. They like to see that somebody is tortured by another.
Hari-śauri: All the movies are becoming increasingly more violent. And on TV.
Gargamuni: On the ship twice? Oh.
Prabhupāda: Consecutively two days, attack. Actually I would have died on the ship before reaching your country. I could not understand that was heart attack. The pain was so severe, I thought, "I am now dying." And it was done two nights. And I was very much afraid whether on the third night, that "If this night also again some pain like that comes, then I'll die." But third night did not pain. It was suspended. It came in New York. And you know it, left side was paralyzed.
Gargamuni: Yes. Left side. We had to massage constantly.
Prabhupāda: No, they were arranging for some operation.
Prabhupāda: I told Kīrtanānanda, "Give me massage."
Gargamuni: I can remember. I wheeled you down for test.
Prabhupāda: The heart was also very painful still.
Gargamuni: They wanted to take some blood, and I had to stop them.
Prabhupāda: They were examining my brain. Then I thought, "I must go away." I told, "Doctor, I am all right. I can go."
Gargamuni: They wanted to do so many tests. They wanted to take also from spine.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that is natural. If my sons dies, I will not be agitated? What is the wrong there?
Pṛthu-putra: Well, one advocate asked me this in Allahabad.
Prabhupāda: That is temporary. That is temporary, but it is natural. Suppose if I prick you, you feel some pain, but that is temporary. Āgamāpāyinaḥ anityāḥ. They come and go.
Hari-śauri: Well, you may say that I'm unhappy with the authority I've got now, but if you force me to accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness when I don't want it, then that will also make me unhappy.
Prabhupāda: No, if it is right thing, then I am right to force you.
Satsvarūpa: This is against our democratic spirit in the West. It...
Prabhupāda: And therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. They're thinking wrongly. It is not possible for you. Actual suffering, I am. You are scientist. But can you give me relief from my old age?
Yogeśvara: No, that's what they want. They want to make it less painful. They want to make old age less painful, less debilitating, so that old people can be more productive and engage in more activity.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is another side. I mean to say so far the body is concerned, I am suffering due to old age. You are scientist. You are European. You are American. Can you give me any relief? You have the idea, "To keep our spiritual master in perfect comfort," but you cannot do it because due to my old age. You may try your best, but it is impossible for you.
Prabhupāda: "...prefer that I do not see the face of nondevotee."
Hari-śauri: You quote that in the Nectar of Devotion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually yes. This society, modern, it is very painful to see even their face. They have fallen so much down that by seeing their face you become polluted. Last night they disturbed so much. And they are happy.
Hari-śauri: Actually they're not happy, but they make a show of happiness.
Prabhupāda: No, they think they're happy. They think they are very happy. They're enjoying life.
Jayapatākā: They'll influence him not to come.
Bhavānanda: Yes. They are always there, around, around, around.
Prabhupāda: No, whatever they like, they do, but I think we shall not insist on this point because we cannot stop the association.
Jayapatākā: And if we hear anything against your Divine Grace it is more painful than death for us.
Prabhupāda: They are very envious.
Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varṇāśrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the śūdra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?
Prabhupāda: Cruel they must be. They're eating meat, rākṣasas.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She was describing that one time they were all looking at this x-ray of one of the patients who had had severe pain. And inside the x-ray they saw that during the operation they had left the scissors and scalpel in the man's body. And all the doctors were standing there laughing, as if it was a big joke. They thought it was a big joke. For a long time the patient had had much pain in the side, and he did not know why. Then they took x-ray, and they found a scissors and a scalpel left inside, and the doctors thought it was a big joke.
Prabhupāda: Then again operated.
Prabhupāda: Some contribution.
Dr. Sharma: Contribution. And there was a real rich life in Indian village. Now, after independence, that life has been really destroyed. Because the grants have been taken away and here, it's really a pain to see such beautiful temples having no maintenance now. Plus this so-called secular education, you know godless education they have introduced, that has further harmed, because the temple-going public has also dwindled in number. And it looks like there has been a systematic plan to undermine our...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, by this Congress. Their opinion is that India is too much religious; they spoiled.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we say that the soul is in the heart. So how can we convince the other doctors, for example, of the presence of the soul within the body and especially within the heart?
Prabhupāda: They do not know that the soul is there. Because they have misunderstood. So when the soul goes away, they think their heart has pain. Material cause. They do not know because the soul has left, the heart is not working. They take it on the other way, that because the heart is not working, therefore he's lying down.
Dr. Sharma: Some of the ancient Indian medical texts, they do describe that heart is the seed of consciousness. (Hindi) The Suśruta Saṁhitā says that the heart is considered the consciousness. But the modern medical texts, they are actually...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The article ends by saying, "Let harijanas be their own pathfinders and let them lead themselves from darkness to light, from pain to pleasure."
Prabhupāda: That you do not know. Otherwise you would have done it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "And from a living hell to tranquillity and joy of life."
Prabhupāda: Hm. If I lie down straight... Lie down means spasm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you lie down, then it's staying. And if you sit up?
Prabhupāda: Sit up, not so painful.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe some gentle massaging on the heart would be good.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Morning he gave me a little massage. So there was little relief.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gave you massage on the chest?
Prabhupāda: No, no, head, here...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember, in Los Angeles a long time ago you were having some pain in the heart. At that time we massaged your heart gently and you felt relief.
Upendra: Some workmen have come.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Prabhupāda: So that requires training.
Indian woman (5): Then also compassion will come in, yeah?
Prabhupāda: Everything requires training.
Indian woman (5): But if you are compassionate, you feel the pain. Then how does that go with even-mindedness?
Prabhupāda: Compassion... That is little advanced. That's all. But that is not the stage of perfection. That animal has also, compassion. That is not a very big thing.
Indian man (1): You mean from human point of view.
Indian woman (5): No.
Indian woman (5): But it seems to come...
Prabhupāda: That first of all you understand. You have to die. If I think, "Oh, you should not die," so what my, this compassion will help you? You have to die. Then what is the use of this compassion? If you give him something that he will not die, that is real compassion. Suppose if there is a boil here, I am suffering, and you come, "Oh, you are suffering?" is that compassion?
Indian woman (5): But you feel a pain also in your...
Prabhupāda: You feel, but what is the meaning of that feeling? You cannot do anything.
Indian woman (5): No. It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (kīrtana starts-Govindam prayers)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think you're feeling any pain. No. Are you thirsty at all? So today, tomorrow, those are critical days. And then one day lapse, and then another critical day. Generally the whole month is not very good, this month, next month, and one after, not very good. Of course, the best place to be is Vṛndāvana, and the best association is Kṛṣṇa's devotees, and you're under the protection of Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. So there can't really be anything inauspicious in such a situation. Śrīla Prabhupāda? We were noticing that your bed is facing... Your bed is facing more or less north. So we were wondering whether we should turn it to face east, which would be in the direction of the Deities, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. We could turn your bed just like this, as if we were turning you. We would keep you in the bed. We can pick up the bed and make it to face with your head towards Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, which would be east. You have any objection? This is north.
Prabhupāda: There is no objection, but which is north?
Prabhupāda: There is some strain here. Why not make big or...? (soft kīrtana in Prabhupāda's room)
Upendra: You have some pain.
Prabhupāda: Not pain, but veins straining.
Upendra: Veins. Just here, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Where is Bhakti-caru?
Devotees: Right here, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Where is Upendra?
Upendra: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Upendra? If I sit down like this, between the two loins, I... It gives me pain.
Upendra: In the lower spine?
Abhirāma: That's that sore.
Upendra: What about that pillow, that round pillow?
Abhirāma: The bigger one is...
Upendra: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Do you remember that little round pillow with the hole in the center? Do you think that would help? No. It's... You put it... Or if you lean.
Prabhupāda: That part, if I sit down too long, that part gives me pain.
Upendra: Then you can lay..., sit up for maybe five minutes sometime, and again in the afternoon for five minutes, little time, and then we can lay you down now if you like. We don't have to keep you up for real long. But just the sitting up helps a little bit, and then, when there is some discomfort, too much, then we can lay down again.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Upendra: (to Tamāla:) He just wanted to know where you were.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I've been in this building all day. It's nice weather now. In the evenings it's very comfortable. You can feel. Not too hot or humid. Bhavānanda's a little... He has a little stomach pain. That's why he's not here tonight. But he said if there's any urgent thing, we should wake him up or immediately bring him. I mean if there's anything that you want him for at any time, he can immediately be called.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prabhupāda: But don't give much.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. You should drink simply like a half a cup. Is that too much? In Bombay we used to give you a full cup. But we can give you a half a cup here. And you try and drink a half a cup. It's only about a 100 cc's. You do that few times in a day, four or five times. Then there'll be no problem. I don't think it's very painful to drink, is it?
Prabhupāda: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is using the same idea as that brahmacārī, putting hot on different places.
Upendra: Leg. Tell him the leg.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have to explain to him about massaging.
Upendra: We did already.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. You have pain in that hip, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Strong eye, but looking third class. (Bharadvāja laughs)
Bharadvāja: We're also showing that human life means responsibility. Even on an ordinary level we are showing that a man may break a law and he's punished, but a dog, he's not punished for breaking man's law. He may cross the street in the wrong place, he is not punished by the law, but the man is. Animals are walking without clothes, but if a man goes out in the street without clothes, he's arrested. So we are making the point here that man is held responsible for his actions, whereas animal is not. And then we show... The conclusion of this is "Therefore human life has responsibility to engage in the pursuit of knowledge and advancing, not degrading himself." Then we want to show that misuse of this human form of life, or giving up that responsibility, has created a chaos in the world, that the world has become full of madness and fear and pain, and the whole civilization is misguided. We want to show on film, side by side, U.N. politicians barking in U.N. and cats and dogs barking in the street.
Prabhupāda: That is explained by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Māyār bośe, jāccho bese.
Prabhupāda: And he was being treated as tuberculosis.
Ādi-keśava: Sometimes they make the operations, and they leave the knife in, and they sew the knife up inside after they make an operation. Or the scissors. They take some clamps and they sew them inside the wound. And then the man says, "Oh, I have a pain in my side." And they say, "Oh, new disease," and they make another operation and take out the clamps or the knife.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes they only depend on machines, these medical doctors. That's why he's mentioning about x-ray. Through these machines you cannot tell the correct diagnosis.
Prabhupāda: I have got many experiences in my family life. One servant, Kashiram.
Prabhupāda: Hm. If you can make some resting place, then I can sit down more.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean with pillows in the back? Shall we do just now? Okay.
Prabhupāda: It is giving pain.(?)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're just getting some round pillows from upstairs. That will be very good. They'll be here in a minute, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali) (break)
Prabhupāda: The sanctity of Jagannātha Purī-lost.
Bhavānanda: Is there any pain this side, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Any pain this side? (break)
Prabhupāda: Jagannātha Purī's sanctity they are killing. Thousands of years. Hm? Gaura-govinda? The sanctity is being...
Gaura-govinda: Sanctity is lost now.
Prabhupāda: That I do not know.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, according to every physician that we've consulted, Ayurvedic and allopathic, they say that that's very much required. Is it painful to pass urine?
Prabhupāda: Sometimes.
Prabhupāda: The same medicine?
Bhakti-caru: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This same medicine will continue till kavirāja comes back and gives new medicine. They are all the same medicine, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There are two different types of medicines. One, I'm supposed to give once in the morning, once in the evening. And another one is in the noontime and late in the evening. And there's one medicine, that's sometime in the afternoon.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not very painful to take the medicine, is it?
Bhakti-caru: Does it taste bad, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the medicine? Does it taste very bad?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: If there is no appetite, how there will be strength?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, unless there is appetite, there cannot be any genuine strength. Let us see what this kavirāja finally says, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We have to say that he seems to have at least given medicine which has done what he said it would do. That much we have to admit. He did not promise that the medicine would give strength yet. Let him come and let us see. He's a very honest man. He admitted that he cannot guarantee that he can save Śrīla Prabhupāda. He said, "But if anyone can, I promise you that my medicine is effective. I make it myself, and I do it according to the Vedas. So if Kṛṣṇa desires, then medicine will have effect of saving Prabhupāda." So that's honest, at least. He's not claiming to be some magician, neither his medicine causes any pain, I think. Sometimes not so tasty, but not painful.
Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Upendra wanted to clean you a little bit. Is that all right? Then after about a half hour or so we'll come back. He's going to clean you now.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Prabhupāda: That should be stopped. (pause)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are you feeling any pain, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No. (pause) Urine bottle.
Prabhupāda: Call one week early.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One week. Very grand event. There is no such project like that anywhere else in India, or in the world. Would you like to hear kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (break) (kavirāja arrives—Hindi discussions; Bhagatji arrives)
Bhakti-cāru: It's less now, this restlessness and the pain.
Kavirāja: (Hindi conversation)
Bhakti-cāru: He didn't pass urine after that. Last one is at five past twelve.
Bhavānanda: That's all. He hasn't passed any.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Prabhupāda: So make arrangement.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali)
Jayapatākā: ...that if you feel any pain or experience any difficulty, then we can bring you back.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I'm not obstinate. (laughter)
Kṛṣṇa dāsa Bābājī: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll put a little oil on? It's against aching. This is all right.
Prabhupāda: Brisk.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is that oil you liked for pains.
Upendra: On the back.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Upendra said. "Should I put a little?"
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...the bullock cart to Vṛndāvana. You were thinking to travel again, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Not now.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some pain? Oh, here he is. Here's Lokanātha, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Lokanātha?
Lokanātha: Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: You are coming back?
Prabhupāda: Where is Jayādvaita?(?)
Bhakti-caru: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali)
Bhakti-caru: He's feeling the pain only in his leg.
Kavirāja: (Hindi)
Bhakti-caru: (Hindi)
Bhavānanda: It's fixed up, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (long pause) (Hindi—kavirāja attends Prabhupāda) Finished passing urine, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: I never passed.
Bhavānanda: Do you have to now? No. (break) Prabhupāda was saying he is heavy all over his body. Just before all this pain, he was feeling heavy.
Bhakti-caru: (Hindi)
Kavirāja: (Hindi)
Indian devotee: Which side? The left side of the body?
Bhavānanda: He said all over.
| Page Title: | Pain (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, JayaNitaiGaura |
| Created: | 25 of Jun, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=170, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 170 |