Devotee: One thing they (indistinct) Prabhupāda, that we are thinking in terms of Vedic culture, and they say well, if this Vedic culture was previously existing, then why did it dissolve? Why did it fall apart and now we have to make a new one?
Prabhupāda: That is not (indistinct). A new way we cannot. If you want perfection, you must take to Vedic culture, because it is not with the four defects of human beings. Anything introduced for... Just like we are pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and some of the students are falling back. How (indistinct)? That is not the defect of the institution. That is some other power. So people might have fallen from the standard of Vedic culture, but they cannot invent any new one. That is it.
Devotee: That is the same thing we say about the scientific process. The scientific process isn't imperfect, it is just the masters who are imperfect. They claim that the empiric process is perfect. We have not developed it to perfection.
Devotee (2): For instance, they would say if our students are falling back, that is because of the environment.
Prabhupāda: They are not falling back. Some of them (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: Some of them...
Prabhupāda: That is (indistinct) anyway.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that ideally, if our environment was conditioned in such a way that they were rewarded for doing good things and punished for doing bad things, that they would not go away.
Prabhupāda: They would be punished, but they don't care for punishment. Just like it says in the lawbook that if you steal, you'll be arrested, but they don't care for your lawbook, the thief. What can you do? That independence is already there. The lawbook says that if you commit theft you will be punished, and he is actually punished. But if he doesn't care for punishment, then what can you do? Punishment is already there.
Śyāmasundara: For instance, he gives an example that, let's say that in an institution there is lunch served for one hour between twelve and one, and at one o'clock the door is closed and locked, sharply. So automatically everyone who wants to come must come before one o'clock, otherwise they will be punished.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. If anyone prefers to starve, they may not come. That law will be not be obligatory to a person who prefers to starve.
Devotee: That isn't the point. The critics make difference. He says that free will can be essentially eliminated. He says you no longer have the choice to be agreeable or not agreeable.
Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. That is another foolishness.
Devotee: Just like the child he was training, that if he ever missed a meal he would be severely punished. Then he may never want to miss a meal.
Devotee: Or he may never want to take a meal out of (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: Actually, his idea is not to let them be punished but to reward.
Prabhupāda: This is the (indistinct), that the thief has learned from the lawbooks, from the religious books, that stealing is bad. If one steals he'll be punished. Because in the human society the scriptures that they have got. No scripture will say that you should steal, for example, neither the lawbook will say that you steal. So if you have heard from scriptures and from lawbooks that stealing is criminal, and by committing this sinful activity I shall be punished, and if you have seen also that anyone who has violated this law and stolen others' property has been arrested and policeman has taken him to the jail, he has seen, he has heard, he has completely experienced, but still, why does he steal? What is the answer?
Devotee: Impelled. Because (indistinct) as a human being. He has a tendency because of the four defects of a human being.
Prabhupāda: Then the question arises, how to rectify these defects?
Śyāmasundara: He says by changing the social environment. By changing the social environment.
Prabhupāda: But he cannot do.
Devotee: But in my experience changing the social environment...
Prabhupāda: The social environment is already there, but still you will be punished.
Śyāmasundara: But his idea is that if you reward them for not stealing that they will not steal. If you reward them sufficiently.
Prabhupāda: First of all let him come to the point of not stealing. Then you will be all right. (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: But if you pay him more, then he won't steal.
Prabhupāda: That you cannot. That you cannot. That is not possible.
Atreya Ṛṣi: The reward and punishment system, Prabhupāda, is motivational. It's not that you pay him more and you pay him less or you punish him. The thing is, he says that...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Who pays? Suppose I am going to steal and get one dollar. And if you pay me three dollars, then I may not steal. Then next point will be when there will be four dollars, I'm going to steal.
Atreya Ṛṣi: No. He is not going to pay you three and four dollars. What he is suggesting is that the reason one steals is not so much that... There are other reasons, like he likes to break the law because he is angry at the law.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the person, why he likes to break the law? That is the question.
Atreya Ṛṣi: That is a good question. Because he is angry or he thinks that his friends would appreciate him more, and he thinks that his friends are more important. That is why he thinks that if you change the social environment then the reward would come...
Prabhupāda: How you can change the social environment?
Śyāmasundara: Those rewards are quantitative. Just like the pigeon gets a certain number of kernels of corn.
Atreya Ṛṣi: (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: But how do you know? You don't know what he said. Listen to what he said. He said that each time that a criminal avoids doing bad, he is given some advantage, some material advantage.
Devotee: So we understand that material advantage isn't satisfying.
Śyāmasundara: That is the difference between the pigeons and the man. The pigeons are satisfied with a few kernels of corn. They don't want more than they can eat. But a man wants more and more and more.
Devotee: In the Bhagavad-gītā Arjuna asks the same question.
Prabhupāda: So this is the important point, that what you are thinking rewarding, that is not. He will think it is insignificant. So what (indistinct). If you give me five dollars, if I steal I will get twenty-five dollars. Why shall I accept your reward?
Śyāmasundara: So what about if I don't steal, my friends will like me. If I do steal, my friends will hate me.
Prabhupāda: But if you have got for friends only thieves, then who will object? "Oh, you are very nice, you are very expert." Why should you mix with such friends? (indistinct) Birds of the same feather flock together.
Śyāmasundara: He says there are three things that this society has that keeps people from disobeying, that is God...
Prabhupāda: This is all speculation. It has no meaning.
Śyāmasundara: ...God, the police, and what other people will think.
Prabhupāda: But if you have no idea of God, what is God, and why am I expecting that you will fear God? You do not know what is God, and you are talking of God.