Prabhupāda: So dhīra, one who is dhīra, sober, philosopher, he knows that "I am not going to be finished. I shall have to accept another body." Now, whether that body will be ānanda? That is the consideration. I'll get another body, just like I have got this body, after changing so many bodies. Moment after moment, we are changing body. That is the medical science, changing of blood corpuscles. So this body will be changed again. Then I will have to enter the mother's womb and packed up for at least ten months in suffocated condition. This is scientific, all. Then again I'll come out when the body is prepared nicely to come out and exist. So that period of formation of body is not ānanda. To remain compact in this way for ten months, it is not ānanda. It is not ānanda, just opposite ānanda. Then when we die... Die, death, means the miserable condition is so great that we cannot live. We have to go out. There is no ānanda. Then, when we have got this body, changing, there is no ānanda because we are sometimes diseased, and to become old man, that is also not ānanda. Therefore I am eternal. I am seeking after something which is eternal ānanda. Therefore next consideration should be that "Whether this condition of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease can be changed?" That is next question. And if there is possibility, then we shall try for it.
Medical (Conversations 1975 - 1976)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: The medical science knows the construction of the body, anatomy, physiology, the bone, this muscle, the blood and everything, but he does not know what is the active principle. When the active principle gone, they cannot repair it. So there may be vast advancement of medical science, but if the medical science cannot check birth, death, old age and disease, then what is the use of it? It may have some temporary use, but actually it is not science. Nobody wants to die. Is there medical science which can stop death? So that knowledge may be temporary, beneficial, but ultimately, it is not the knowledge. I am anxious for not dying. Nobody wants to die. This is my anxiety. And where is that science, medical science? So we are satisfied with some temporary knowledge. We have no ultimate knowledge. And because it is very difficult subject matter, we have avoided it very carefully.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. There are different medical men and difficult diagnoses, but the urgent case is: cure the driver, and then car will go on nicely. Unfortunately, modern civilization, they do not know what is the driver. And how he will keep him sane? He does not know what is the driver? He thinks the car is automatically going on. Just like child. A child sees the car is going automatically, but that's not a fact. There is a driver. So if our vision is childish, how we can solve the problems of life? I talked with big, big professor, Kotovsky, in Moscow. He said, "There is no driver." This is a big professor, and he is teaching others. So if the leading men of the world, they think there is no driver, the body is automatically going, then what is the fate of the civilization? (break) No, there are, similarly, capitalists, communists, "this-ists," "that-ists." Full of these rascals. So how the human civilization can be without problems? The leaders are rascals. How we can expect that it will go on without problem?
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that solution we are preaching, we are trying to preach. At least one section of people should know the science of the soul. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like medical necessity is there, does not mean that everyone should become medical man, similarly, the science of soul is necessity; it does not mean that everyone will be the transcendentalist or the scientist about soul. But at least one section of people must be there who knows perfectly well about the science of soul. As much as there is medical man—he knows perfectly well what is physiology, anatomy—there is engineer—he knows how to construct—similarly, a section must be there who knows perfectly well about the science of soul. So as there is need of medical man, engineer or lawyers or other, similarly, there is need of one section of expert who knows the science of soul. The medical man, the engineer, the archeologist or this or that, they are all meant for the body. Similarly, there must be one expert section who are meant for the soul. But all the universities, they have got these departments, medical department, engineering department, law department, but there is no department which is teaching perfectly well about the science of soul.
Prabhupāda: That's all. All these medical men, psychiatrists, they are simply painting the body of the car. That's all. What is that?
Vīra-lakṣmaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists, they've reported in one journal of theirs that by taking some chemicals of methane, ammonia and carbon and injecting it with electricity, that equation or that formula equates them to an energy that is called amino acid in due course of time. That is, they say, the building blocks of life, of protein.
Prabhupāda: So why do they not do that?
Vīra-lakṣmaṇa: They've made an experiment...
Prabhupāda: That means they are not in knowledge. That I am speaking, the barking dog. First of all make experiment, produce life. Then come and say. Otherwise don't bark like a dog, imitation. Simply big, big words. Produce. Our theory is that... In the śāstra it is said harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nās... (CC Adi 17.21). That practical proof we are giving, that these Europeans, Americans, they are simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and how they are coming out, this practical proof. They did not know five or six years ago what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa's name. But we are taking the conclusion of the śāstra: in this age, if one chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, he becomes spiritualized. That is becoming, practically. It is not theory. How so many devotees are in this Atlanta, here? Anywhere, wherever we have started, how they have become devotee? Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You follow this formula and you will become God conscious." That is being practically proved. It is not theory. So that is Vedic knowledge. You adopt Vedic knowledge and get the result, not that "This ammonia, this chemical, that chemical, but I cannot do anything." The rascal said, "That I cannot say."
Prabhupāda: That is medical science.
Guest (1): Because all over the developing world there are millions of mothers who would not get any great quantities of protein while they are pregnant. In the first instance before they are pregnant, they are not nutritionally prepared for having another burden of a baby inside their body, and without that adequate preparation when they become pregnant, this is a double stress on their physiological systems. And we would like to see how the baby gets affected.
Prabhupāda: So if by chance there is baby, killing. Is that the conclusion?
Guest (1): No, our conclusions just say that there is a critical period in the development of the baby that if it does not get any good nutrition at that time, then he's likely to be retarded in many respects.
Devotee: But they are making different cures for critical diseases that are causing deaths...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that does not mean there will be no disease. That is already being done by many medical practitioners. Better medicine. But where is the medicine that will not be disease.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually we are eliminating one by one all the diseases.
Prabhupāda: No, that you have not done. No disease... You have increased diseases. You have stopped one disease and increased another. Not stopped! But you have increased another disease.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may argue that the knowledge which you say you have, it doesn't stop all of these things from happening to you. You're also suffering from symptoms of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But I'm trying because I have got this material body like you, so I have to suffer like you. But I'm making treatment. You are not making treatment.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the effects appear to be the same on everyone.
Prabhupāda: No. We are not so much after doctors or medical...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your students also suffer from diseases and all...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. So long the body's there, one has to suffer. That we tolerate. That is advised in the Bhagavad-gītā,
- mātrā sparśās tu kaunteya
- śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
- āgamāpāyino nityās
- tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
- (BG 2.14)
Titikṣa, we know how to tolerate. We are not mad after curing. We know these things will happen so long I have got this body.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. Secular means government's duty is that "You call yourself a Hindu. Whether you are acting as Hindu? You call yourself as Muslim. Whether you are acting as Muslim?" This is government's duty. Government does not say or prefer that "You are Christian. It is not good. You become Hindu." No, that is not government's... You remain your Christian, but government's duty is that whether he is acting as Christian. This is government's duty. Not that you are acting like a something else, and you are calling yourself Christian. You are acting like a śūdra, and you are advertising yourself as a brāhmaṇa. So just like a, what is called, quack. If he writes, "Dr. something," that is punishable. But you are quack. That's all right. You can take a certificate that you have got some experience. The registered medical practitioner, I think that is... But what is this, that you are proclaiming yourself as a... (chuckles) So character means a class of men there must be, maybe very few, but they are actually men of character. Just like I am teaching them no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. This is basic principle. Otherwise, where is his character? You are doing all nonsense, and still, you are proclaiming yourself as brāhmaṇa. This should be stopped. And a training college should be there how to make a real brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Vānaprastha college, yes. That is the very essential thing at the present moment, that a class of men... Just like the same example: If one wants to become an engineer he must be properly trained up. If he wants to become a medical man he must be properly trained up. Similarly, if one wants to become a brāhmaṇa, then he must be properly trained up, or even if one does not want, the state should maintain a college where a real brāhmaṇa is trained up. Just like Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, when he opened some higher studies of academic qualification, so there was one or two students, and there were three professors drawing at least twelve hundred rupees per month. So twelve hundred rupees per month, that means thirty-six hundred, expenditure, and the income is thirty-six rupees. It is not the question of money, but it is the question of culture. So even though at the present moment people are not inclined to become a brāhmaṇa, I tried it. I tried it before starting this movement. I tried to some friends that "You have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall train him how to become a perfect brāhmaṇa." Nobody agreed. They said, "Swamiji, (Hindi)," But if there is not a ideal class of brāhmaṇa, then how you can say that you become moralist? If there is no example of moralist, how you can ask people, "Become moralist"?
Prabhupāda: Not it is same. Medically, it is not the same.
Justin Murphy: The functions are different, but it's the same heart that's beating, the same veins...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, it is not the same body. Just like in your childhood, when you were a boy, you had no sex impulse. Now you have got sex impulse. The body of a child, the body of a boy, they cannot understand sex life because the body is different. And now, because you have got different body, you can feel what is sex life. So it is imperceptibly changing. Therefore we think that it is growing. But it is changing. It is changing swiftly. Just like in the cinema spool. The picture is changing, but because it is changing so swiftly, you are seeing that one man is moving. That is the fact. There are hundreds and thousands of pictures passed on. When you see that "This man is taking the stick and bringing this way," this means there are many pictures. So similarly, it is like a spool. Your body is changing every moment. That is medical science.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no, no. But that's all right. Just like we have got different institution—this is for educating engineers, this is for educating medical man, this is for educating geographer—as there are different departments.
Justin Murphy: Oh, sure, to begin with, and so there must be.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, there must be a department to train first-class men. That is required.
Prabhupāda: No, you should work for the result. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. But do not think that because you working very nicely, the result will come. That is the... Because it is not in your hand. Therefore, karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana: "Your duty is to go on working, but don't expect the result as you desire." That will never happen unless it is sanctioned. Just like a man is suffering. Your duty is to appoint nice physician, nice medicine. But is there any guarantee that he will live? Why does he die? You can say that "I have given the best medicine and best medical treatment." Still, he dies. What is the cause? What do they say? What is the cause?
Amogha: Perhaps they didn't know the right...
Prabhupāda: (break) Wherefrom the force comes? Why don't you inquire? Why do you say that sometimes you are forced to commit mistake. So why don't you inquire wherefrom the force coming? Did you inquire that?
Devotee (2): I tried to, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: The force means there is Supreme, He is forcing. Without His sanction, you will be forced to commit mistake.
Madhudviṣa: ...cannot become a medical practitioner by simply reading the books. He must study under a medical practitioner. So in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?
Prabhupāda: No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you have to contact with the author always.
Devotee: Just like the textbooks are not written by the teachers; they're written by other professors.
Devotee: Usually you don't even meet the author.
Prabhupāda: Simply one who knows the subject matter, he can explain.
Madhudviṣa: But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides...
Prabhupāda: No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. Not necessarily the author is required to be present there. (break) ...to study from a medical man, I never said you have to study from the author. Or one who understood the author's purpose. Just like we are explaining Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Not that one has to learn directly from Kṛṣṇa. One who has understood Kṛṣṇa, from him. That is paramparā system.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Because there are different grades. But at least one class of men should remain in the society as ideal, God conscious. Just like for our usual life we require lawyers, we require engineer, we require medical practitioner, we require so many, similarly, in the society there must be a class of men who are fully God conscious and ideal. That is necessary. Just like in your body you have got hands, legs, belly, but the head must be there. If your head is cut off, then, despite you have got hands, legs, and belly, it is useless. So this attempt, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is an attempt to keep at least one class of men, ideal devotee, ideal character. At least, people will see, "Oh, here is an ideal character." That is required. That is described in the Śrīmad-..., Bhagavad-gītā, how to create a first-class man. Just like we have got educational institution for giving instruction on law or medical science or engineering, similarly, there must be an institution to make first-class devotee, ideal man.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not ideal and neither it is possible. Not that everyone is going to be lawyer. Even though everyone has got the ambition to become a first-class lawyer and earn like anything, but that is not possible. So therefore it requires selection, who will become a lawyer, who will become a scientist, who will become a medical man...
Guest 2: In our society you are taught in school that if you try hard enough, you can become prime minister.
Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no harm. You become prime minister. But I say that not everyone is capable to become prime minister. That has to be. If one man is not capable and if he takes education to become, he will waste his time.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So as you are training lawyer, as you are training medical man, you can train some men like that. It is possible. If you train from the childhood, it is possible. It doesn't matter from which family he is coming, but it will require, trained up. Just like you have been trained up as lawyer, it doesn't matter from which family you have... It may be lawyer's family or engineer's family. It doesn't matter. But training. So at the present moment, to make the society perfect, a class of men should be trained as it is described here. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And if the first-class men are there, people will consult them, people will follow them, the whole society will be nice.
Prabhupāda: Heroism. Therefore the kṣatriyas are allowed to hunt in the forest to become hero because he has to fight. Just like in medical laboratory they first of all dissect some poor animal before touching human being. Therefore kṣatriyas are allowed to hunt to become hero. Facing the tiger, "Come on." And still, say, about twenty-five years ago, there was a native prince in Jaipur. Every year he would go to the forest and face the tiger, without any weapon. So that is required.
Prabhupāda: Why? You cannot see your death? So why you are making medical science to stop death? You do not see death, but it is sure that you will die. So why don't you wish to die? (dog barking in background) There, the scientists' barking. (laughter) So many cars, all our? No.
Śrutakīrti: No.
Prabhupāda: So how this chunk came here? Hmm? The scientists say...
Gurukṛpa: There is only one answer.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Gurukṛpa: Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, that is your answer. What the scientists will say?
Gurukṛpa: Well, it came from a volcano in the earth.
Prabhupāda: It is stone. (so?) It is not separate piece.
Prabhupāda: Well, then, therefore you are a rascal. Then why you are struggling to live? Why, when you are sick, why do you call doctor, physician? Why this tendency? Why you are making research in medical science, opening hospital? Die. Why you are not willing to die? Then what is the answer? He says, "There is no such thing as eternity," but why you are struggling for eternity? Then what is the answer? Hmm?
Bahulāśva: Well, when we tell them your philosophy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, he became silent. The one... We were having a debate, and the one chairman of the debate, he then he turned to Mr. Stahl. He said, "So what do you think of this answer, Mr. Philosopher?" And Mr. Stahl just sat there very quiet. He couldn't say anything.
Prabhupāda: So first of all learn it. Otherwise you will be cheating. If you do not know the art and if you want to do some benefit to the others, then that is cheating. Suppose a physician, he does not know what is the medical science and if he wants to become a physician, that is cheating. Quack. (laughter)
Dr. Gerson: I hope through the study that I'm doing with the devotees and the book that comes out of it that it will help them not be cheated any longer and show them the right way.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is not dependent on any personality.
Dr. Gerson: I understand that. But what I'm trying to do is explain to the medical and psychological community in terms that they will understand, and so I'm using the tests that they understand and read.
Prabhupāda: You give him one book, that Scientific Basis of...
Jayatīrtha: ...of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Have you read that book by Svarūpa Dāmodara.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can give him one book. You read it.
Prabhupāda: When you can give life. There is sometimes cow sacrifice yajña. The cow sacrifice yajña means an old cow, he is sacrificed in the fire, and by Vedic hymns he is given again new life. To test the potency of the Vedic mantra, an old cow is sacrificed and by mantra he is given again new life. Not for killing and eating. That was discussed between Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Chand Kazi, Mohammedan magistrate. Those who have read Caitanya-caritāmṛta will find. So the Kazi was challenged by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "You are killing cow and bulls. What is your religion? You are killing your father and mother." Then, he also was learned man, he said it that "In your Vedas the cow sacrifice yajña is there." Then He explained, "This sacrifice is not for eating. It is giving a new life. To test the Vedic mantra." That is discussed in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. That is a different case. For meat-eating a cow should not be killed. This is not very good civilization. If you are..., you must eat meat, then you can kill other animals. They, those who are the kṣatriyas, they were sometimes going to the forest, killing the deer. They are allowed. Because they have to learn how to kill. So by killing animals, they used to practice. Just like doctors, medical practitioners, they first of all ply their knife on the dead body and find out where are the nerves, where are the..., not a living man.
Prabhupāda: Not seven years. A medical man says every moment the blood corpuscles are changing.
Ambarīṣa: Are different?
Prabhupāda: Yes. New blood cells are coming into being. So you cannot say machine growing. That is fallacious. A machine, new machine. (Everyone gets out of car)
Ambarīṣa: New machine, jaya.
Prabhupāda: As soon as I want a smaller car, not smaller car, I want bigger car, smaller car also. That is change. Whatever you deserve. You desire; at the same time, you deserve. First deserve, then desire. Just like these rascals, "I desire to become God." That kind of desire will never be fulfilled.
Prabhupāda: So one barrister, Mr. Allston, he was pacifying, "Don't worry, I shall appeal and get you released. Don't worry." (laughter) I heard it. I was passing, and Mr. Allston was advising his client. He was morose. "Don't worry, I shall appeal and get you released." (break) ...condemned person was a medical man, and he killed his servant in the surgical room because the servant was implicated with his wife. This is the story. (break)
Brahmānanda: ...English?
Prabhupāda: No, no, Indian.
Brahmānanda: And the man was also Indian?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He was a medical man. Yes, rich, rich. (break) ...they have arranged to have the meeting with this Professor Dimmock?
Brahmānanda: I didn't ask. They were supposed to do it.
Prabhupāda: It is not difficult, very simple task. To ask them "Please come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, and take sumptuously prasādam, go home"—where is the difficulty? And they are coming; we are doing that. But we are doing—because we have no money—we are doing on a small scale. But if the government gives us facility we can expand this scale. That's all. We are collecting money... Of course we are doing our business by selling these books. We have got many books. And we are inviting men; they are coming, and gradually increasing. There is no dearth of men or devotees. But the government is faced with these difficulties, "Crime, why and what to do?" So we are suggesting this: because they are unclean in their heart, therefore there is crime and take this process, it will be successful. This is our... They are faced with the problem, "Why crime and what to do?" And we are giving the answer. So you take advantage of it. Why? We are saying, "Because they are godless." And what to do? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam. Now, if you like, you can take. Otherwise, we are doing our own business. Just like a poor medical man. He is also giving medicine. But if he is given facility, he can open a big hospital. So that is our proposition. We are already doing that business. But if we get facility from the authorities then we can open a big place, a big hospital. And the problem is already big. Otherwise, why they are saying, "What to do?"
Lt. Mozee: Well, there are...
Prabhupāda: That has to be trained up. Just like in your country there are medical, professional men, the engineering class of men, the lawyers class of men, similarly, you can train how to become a first-class man. The training process is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Bring it. Śamo damaḥ titikṣa satyaṁ śaucam ārjavam. The... Just like you have got formula how to train medical man, how to train in the mechanical man, or different department of knowledge, similarly, you can train how to become first-class man. How to become second-class man. The direction are already there. You can take advantage of the direction and train people as first-class, second-class, third-class.
Prabhupāda: Oh. You are medical practitioner? (break) Cooler, cooler nowadays? (break) Then other big, big telescope, how many miles it can see?
Jayatīrtha: You can see millions of miles.
Prabhupāda: How many million? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda. Who has said that this is caste system? This is not caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and according to work, there are four divisions of men. Just like you can understand there are engineers and there are medical practitioners. So do you take them as caste? "Oh, he is engineer caste. He is medical caste." Do you say like that?
Sandy Nixon: I don't want to say what I feel because I'm recording you. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: I'm asking you, I'm asking you...
Sandy Nixon: Well, I think there's always been castes. It's just that we don't recognize the fact that they're there.
Prabhupāda: No, recognize means if a man is qualified medical man we accept him as medical man. And if a man is qualified engineer, we accept him as engineer. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā suggests—not suggest, it is there—there are four classes of men, the most intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and ordinary worker. That is already there. Bhagavad-gītā says how they should be classified, that "He belongs to this class, he belongs to that class." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, not that by birth, hereditarily, one becomes a caste. You don't try to misunderstand. The classification is already there: one class of men, very intelligent.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you are reborn every moment. You were like this child sometime. Is this body the same? You think your body is the same when you were a child like that, lying down on the lap of you mother? Is the same body?
Bernard Manischewitz: No, my body is different from a child's body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So different body means you are changing body every moment, imperceptibly. That is the medical science.
Bernard Manischewitz: Can it sometimes be perceptibly? Can a person...?
Prabhupāda: Perceptibly we can understand that the body is being changed so long you are within this body. Because if the person, the soul, is not in the body, the body does not change. Body changes so long the soul is there. And as soon as the soul goes out of the body, there is no more change. Is it not perceptible?
Bernard Manischewitz: If the soul goes out of the body...
Prabhupāda: There is no more change. It remains the same. Same status. Why? That means so long the soul is there, changes take place.
Prabhupāda: But you are doctor already. Why shall I become doctor? You serve me. We serve you by giving you Kṛṣṇa consciousness; you serve me as a doctor. What is the wrong there? Parasparārtham. I am for you; you are for me. Division of labor, that is accepted universally. So ask them, "Do you think that everyone should become doctor? Then where is the patient?" Eh? Everything is required. Similarly, you require our help also. It is cooperation. You know medical science; we know spiritual science. So let us exchange and be happy. Why you are envious of us? Why there is division in the body—head, arms, legs, belly? Why not everything head or everything leg? Why there is divided? That is nature. It is required. Why this road is neglected?
Mādhavānanda: It's mismanagement.
Ādi-keśava: Even they are saying that, that we don't know how to, we're not teaching anything practical.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Ādi-keśava: Even sometimes they are saying we're not teaching anything practical.
Prabhupāda: Syphilis, yes. So in India the syphilis is very horrible disease. So he exclaimed, "Oh, it is horrible." The doctor, that Colonel Maylow(?), he was astonished: "Why you say it is horrible? In your country they suffer, 90%, from malaria. That's not horrible?" So the example is that when you are suffering for a doctor, either you are suffering from malaria or from syphilis, we are suffering from disease. Why you say "This disease is horrible than that disease"? Actually this is the fact. Why should you discriminate? So he chastised him that "As a medical man, you cannot say this disease is more dangerous than that. Every disease is dangerous." Actually you should take that. Suffering, three kinds of suffering—adhyātmika, adhibhautika... The suffering is there. If you say adhyātmika suffering is better than adhibhautika suffering, that is foolishness. Atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ. Spiritual life means to end all kinds of suffering. That is spiritual life. Not that I get free myself from this kind of suffering and I accept that kind of suffering. This is not good conclusion. Atyantika-duḥkha. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This place is duḥkhālayam, full of miseries. And Kṛṣṇa is canvassing, "Why you are suffering? Come to Me." This mercantile community, they are earning money for mitigating suffering, but for earning money they are accepting any means. In future he is creating field of another suffering. That he does not know. He thinks, "Now, if I get money somehow or other, my present sufferings will be mitigated." But he does not know that he is creating another field of suffering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was begun long ago. For their hospital, formerly... (bell ringing)
Viśāla (in distance): All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda!
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Retired medical practitioners, they used to join. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. But nobody is joining now. What is this?
Viśāla: Tad viddhi praṇipātena... (BG 4.34). (etc.) (end)
Prabhupāda: Comfort, where is your comfort? Why you have so many medical men if you are comfortable? Why there are so many drugs, medicine, if you are comfortable? This is māyā. He is not in comfort; still, he will say that "I am in comfort." This is called māyā, illusion.
Brahmānanda: So these drugs, even though one may be feeling pain, he can take the drugs and he won't feel pain.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He will take injection. It is comfort. Daily he will take injection, and it is comfort. (laughter) Just see the fools and rascals. Mūḍha. (break) ...met so many medical men, doctors and quack. "Die comfortably." What is the use of this medical man, medicine? What is the use? If your comfort and death is comfortable, then why spend so much money? Die comfortably. Because you cannot check death, then why you are trying to check death? "Let me live some years more. Let me take this medicine." Why? Why this struggle? Die comfortably. Suffer disease comfortably.
Prabhupāda: Medical help is free? No.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: It is to be paid.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But it is very inexpensive.
Prabhupāda: Education?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that education is free for Africans, is it?
Devotee (1): It's very, very cheap, but not for the colored, of course.(?) There are probably many more African schools than European schools, because there are so many Africans, it's very difficult...
Prabhupāda: On the whole, the white man is governing.
Prabhupāda: What we have to study particularly whether it is standard. Otherwise they may speak so many things, but if they do not know what is the standard... Just like medical science or any science, that is one. It cannot be different because it is spoken by different men. That is not one. That is not science. "Two plus two equal to four"—this is a science that is true everywhere, not that because it is spoken by somebody else it becomes "two plus two equal to five" or "three." No. That is...
Faill: No. Some other people, do you feel, possibly have had the truth as well, have they?
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to say.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Therefore in America many of our students, they are teaching courses at the university. I for one, I have a B.Sc. in chemistry. I'm actually a graduate in chemistry. I had a four-year scholarship to medical school and some of the other devotees are also graduates, and they are actually teaching in the universities.
Prabhupāda: If you want some of our student to teach, he can do that.
Indian man (3): Yes. Dr. Desai has been very helpful in establishing societies and schools and charitable organizations. Yes, I will also send a message to Dr. Desai to come and see you. Dr. Desai sacrificed all his medical practice and all for the people.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Indian man (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: (wind blowing) Pranair arthair dhiya vacaḥ śreya acaraṇam... (break) ...by words, by intelligence, everyone should serve Kṛṣṇa, then life is successful. Pranair arthair dhiya vacaḥ.
Indian man (1): What of meetings, religious meetings, especially here in South Africa?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Indian man (1): In South Africa here especially, number of religious meetings, they start off with the Gāyatrī mantra three times, and at the end of the meeting they have a ṣantipat. Now is there any real necessity for a religious meeting to start off with the Gāyatrī mantra and end with santipat?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's not bad.
Harikeśa: Well, now medical science is so advanced that even if you have heart disease they can give you another heart.
Prabhupāda: So does it mean that the situation is changed? No more heart disease or heart is never failure? It will continue? Where is the change. You may be proud with your puffed-up, false knowledge, but where is the change of situation? Futile attempt.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they will say that the duration of life years ago was much shorter than it is now, that now the duration of life is sixty-five or seventy years average.
Prabhupāda: That may be in few cases. Generally the duration of life is reduced. Nobody lives nowadays like his forefather. So where is extension? It is reduced. And what is the extension? In old age the body becomes subjected to so many ailments. What is the use of living with ailments, with toothache and many other things? What is the use of such life? Better die young, in good health, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the use of prolonged life? The prolonged life... The trees are also prolonged life. Does it mean it is happy? They live for five hundred years, five thousand years. Hundred, two hundred years' living for tree is not at all difficult. But they live for thousands of years. So is it very pleasing to live like a tree for many thousands of years? Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Harikeśa: How would the other necessities of life be taken care of, like medical things? If actually they have no knowledge, and they have to require to build these gigantic hospitals...
Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas, the brāhmaṇas will give you medical help. Āyur-Veda. They will read Āyur-Veda. They will give help.
Harikeśa: So the Āyur-Veda possibly can work nowadays.
Prabhupāda: Why not?
Harikeśa: Some people were telling me that the herbs had lost all their effectiveness in the Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Then die. (laughter) Do you mean to say this modern medical treatment is guarantee for your living?
Harikeśa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? That is also not guarantee. If you see the herbs and plants are no more effective, then if there is no guarantee in your modern medical, there is no guarantee. So why should you spend so much money? As soon as I go to a doctor, immediately twenty dollars. As soon as go to purchase some drugs, immediately twenty. If I have no money... And still that is not guarantee, so why shall I spend so much money?
Harikeśa: So actually this money doesn't even exist in Vedic society—money.
Prabhupāda: Money is not required. You require things. Just like instead of money, you are getting papers. Money means gold. Where is gold? You are cheated. Money means gold. So instead of possessing gold, you are possessing some paper, written there, "hundred dollars." And you are such a fool, you are satisfied. You are being cheated. Bank's check and currency notes, you keep it in your..., "Oh, here is my money." Is that money? Just see.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted. But if you do not know what is God's name, then what you will chant? What you will chant? Then you chant Kṛṣṇa. We know it is God's name. Take. Take to our principle. If there is no medical college, come to our medical college. You are welcome. Why you are envious? You have no medical college; at the same time, you are envious of my medical college. Why? Why this nonsense? If you want to learn medical science—you have no medical science, college-come here. This is our proposal. Why you are envious? That means rascal. "Our gold." Gold is "our gold," everyone's gold? "Our gold." What do you mean, "our gold"? Gold is always gold, either in your hand or in my hand. In your hand it is not Christian gold and in my hand it is not Hindu gold. Gold is gold.
Prabhupāda: No, formerly, three hundred years, you had some water; therefore the water is coming out. This is all nonsense. Seven generation before my great-grandfather ate some ghee, and still I have got the smell. (laughter) It is that argument. Huh? This kind of argument has no value. Water is... You can create water from your body. What is there? You are a doctor. What is your...? Eh? Medical men they are. No? Water is created. How the blood is created? He did not drink blood. This is nonsense argument. How we create blood? It is becoming. You do not know how it is, but you have got such potency that blood is being created. You even do not know how the blood is being done, but it is being. That is inconceivable energy. There are so many secretions. They are coming within the body. So everything is there. By God's supreme energy they are being automatically. Svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). God has got multi-energies. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. This is the description. He hasn't got to do anything. Just like so many things are being manufactured within my body. I haven't got to directly work for it. So similarly, the God's gigantic... Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. He has nothing to do. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate.
Prabhupāda: Will the medical man will say that everything happening by chance?
Harikeśa: Well, that's because his body is all right. His body fits in with the scheme of things, so it can continue. But let's say the person doesn't eat, he can't get...
Prabhupāda: They know that you have violated these rules of health, therefore you are diseased. There is no chance.
Harikeśa: But he is fit to live so he can live. But someone other than...
Prabhupāda: Nobody is fit. The doctors also become sick as soon as there is violation. The violation is the cause of sickness, so either he may be doctor or no doctor, that does not matter. If you violate, you'll be sick. That is nature's law. Nature's law.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Therefore we call them stupid, rascals. There is no chance. Kāranaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya, Kṛṣṇa says, kāraṇam (BG 13.22). There is no question of chance. Kāranaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Because you do not know how you are infecting... Just like you become all of a sudden attacked with cholera. You are thinking that it is by chance. It is not chance. Eh? What this medical man will... "It is chance." No. You infected somewhere. You do not know. And because you are foolish, you are taking it as chance. There is no question of chance.
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa's qualification is there—śama, dama, titikṣa, ārjavam and jñānam, vijñānam, āstikyam, brahma-karma... (BG 18.42). Everything is there, the symptoms. So you are doing business, the occupation of the vaiśyas or śūdras, and how you are claiming to become brāhmaṇa? The... Who is a brāhmaṇa, that symptoms is there in the śāstra. And not only the symptoms, Nārada Muni has said, "If these symptoms are found elsewhere, then he should be accepted according to the symptom." There is no question of birth. Yasya hi yaḻ lakṣanām proktaṁ varṇābhivyanjakaṁ yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta tat tenaiva viniriset. This is Nārada's vision. So it is the symptom. Just like a doctor, medical man. He diagnoses according to the symptom. He finds out the cause. So symptom is required, not that a man has become diseased or healthy by birth. No. By birth he is born. Then again, when he develops certain types of symptom, so one has to take him in that way. That is śāstra. We are accepting, or giving them sacred thread, brāhmaṇa, after seeing that they are actually acting as a brāhmaṇa, not superficially. Therefore we take some time to see whether he can develop brahminical symptom. That is our process, not that anyone comes, and we give him a sacred thread and he becomes immediately brāhmaṇa. We don't do this. First of all give him chance. Let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, follows the rules and regulations. Then let us see. If he is actually serious, he has developed the symptom, then... This is the proper way. Even one comes from the brāhmaṇa family—he wants initiation—we don't give immediately, even if he is coming from a brāhmaṇa... That is a good facility, that he is born in a brāhmaṇa family, but the symptom is the first necessity. Either you are born in a brāhmaṇa family or śūdra family, it doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Putrārthe kriyate bharyā putra-piṇḍa-prayojanam. This, the first, piṇḍa-dāna for maintaining family. But nowadays nobody wants offspring. They want to kill to avoid botheration.
Dr. Patel: First they prevent, and if by accident it happens, then they kill it. And the medical profession help them.
Prabhupāda: Help them. Before my speaking you are saying. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: I am against it, no doubt. Once upon a time I used to be the doctor of all these so-called cinema actors and actresses, and you know their profession. And they are always falling prey of these sort of things, and they would come to me for relief, and I would refuse. So today I have none of them as my patient.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot relieve them.
Prabhupāda: Dolls means the Bhāgavata śloka explained by doll display. Just like in your medical science there are sometimes...
Dr. Patel: Models.
Prabhupāda: Models, yes.
Dr. Patel: Just you are doing pictures in your Bhāgavata...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You are a medical man. If somebody is doing wrongly, you must say it is a rascaldom. Yes. You cannot accept, "Oh, you are all right. You are all right. You are doing in your own way." (laughter) He's another rascal.
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right, sir.
Prabhupāda: That's right? You are a medical man and you'll, you'll...?
Dr. Patel: Still I say... You'll hear.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, I cannot hear this.
Dr. Patel: You see, we don't understand the working of those people in Africa, those junglis. But they do some...
Prabhupāda: But you are not a junglis; you are a medical man, sir.
Prabhupāda: Skin comes from the blood. You know better than..., medical practitioner.
Dr. Patel: Skin is nourished by blood. It comes from something else.
Prabhupāda: So that is not the way. When there is symptoms... The symptom is... First symptom is that he must know that he is not body, and he must know what is God. Then it is Aryan civilization.
Dr. Patel: Ātma-niṣṭha and īśvara-niṣṭha.
Prabhupāda: Hm. And yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). That is animal.
Dr. Patel: Kuṇape is a dead body. Kuṇape tri-dhātuke.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is dead. What is this body? It is already dead. Just like motorcar. It is dead lump of matter. So long the driver is, it is moving. Similarly, the body is dead. So without understanding of spiritual identification, simply decorating this body means aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-rañjanam. This is going on, loka-rañjanam, just to captivate some foolish person that they are advanced in civilization. What is that civilization? But we can understand, this civilization and the dog, there is no difference. There is no difference.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) I have my doubts. How can we know that he is not knowing or knowing? It is our conjecture that he is not knowing.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Śāstra says. You conjecture, but we don't conjecture. We simply repeat what is said in the śāstra. Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt. "Your eyes should be the śāstra, not conjecture." Śāstra says, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. He has become a dog on account of his infection with certain type of material qualities. That is our eyes. We don't conjecture anything. It is naturally may be inquired that "Why one living entity has got this body of a dog and why one living entity has got the body of King Indra?" The śāstra-cakṣuṣāt: kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Śāstra says, Kṛṣṇa says. So it is, reason is, that he has infected the certain type of material modes of nature; therefore he has got. It is very easy. As you, medical man, you know how the disease has come, you have infected the disease. It is that.
Dr. Patel: We are manufacturing only for the body, but all these...
Prabhupāda: Nothing you can manufacture, even in the body. You are medical practitioner, hundreds of men you see, different types of body. Is it not? You cannot say that this is the standard." Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgasya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. The actual disease is the contamination of the guṇa.
Dr. Patel: But they desire the people who are manufacturing for the guṇas only, and not for the soul. That is what I am hinting at.
Prabhupāda: That is another ignorance. That is another ignorance.
Dr. Patel: ...kaunteya mukta-saṅga samācara.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. The māyāvādī philosophers, they are taking because the senses are creating so much trouble, material existence, finish this-śūnyavādi. But that will not solve the problem. Problem will be solved that you keep your eyes. You don't require to finish it, but cure it. Just like you medical man. If one is blind out of cataract, you don't say that you pluck it, the eye, and throw it. No. "Please cure it and you'll be able to see." This is the difference between māyāvādī philosopher and Vaiṣṇava philosopher. They want to pluck it out, make it zero, śūnyavāda.
Dr. Patel: Śūnyavāda.
Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the philosophy. Śūnyavādī means they want to make it zero. Your are troubling, you have got so much trouble with your eyes: don't bother, pluck it out! This is their philosophy. And our philosophy is, "No, there is no need of plucking out. Just cure it and you'll see."
Prabhupāda: No, (Hindi). Hm.
Dr. Patel: Same thing—our boys have started smoking LSD in the colleges here. Yes, yes. In Grand(?) Medical College boys have started smoking. They know very well that it is a bad thing, medical students. Never bother the arts and science schools. (Hindi) Because their ideal starts from American precedent. The last precedent (president?) was so idealistic, so... (laughing)
Girirāja: A few days back in the newspapers there was..., smoking causes damage to the brain...
Dr. Patel: It causes damage everywhere, because it damages your blood vessel which carries the vital fluid to all the organs. The blood vessels are spoiled and narrowed down so not sufficient amount of blood will get to your brain, to your heart, to your lungs, your everything practically. Follow? This is not one of (indistinct). They smoke this ganja, sir, because artificially they go into a sort of a trance. That is what the psychedelic drugs.
Prabhupāda: That man also says like that.
Dr. Patel: "I am not there for the rascals, and I am there for those who are tattva-darśanas."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way of learning everything. You cannot learn your medical science from a pān-wālā. You have to go to a medical college.
Dr. Patel: They also give some (gowdies?) in the pān.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot take your degree from the pān wālā. Nowadays some of the rascals, they are preaching openly that you haven't got to go to a guru. Huh, is it not?
Indian man: Krishnamurti is...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this rascal was speaking like that.
Saurabha: No, well there was, on the floor space there is facility for a doctor, so he saw that on the plan, so he proposed that "Well, I'm a dentist, so I can give the devotees free service."
Prabhupāda: No, there will be no medical service in the building. (Hindi to some men) These quarters there is no such building, huh? Our, this pattern?
Saurabha: No. Not in Bombay, nowhere in Bombay.
Prabhupāda: (chuckling) That's very good.
Harikeśa: There will be after this, though.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: After this there will be...
Devotee: Imitation. (Prabhupāda laughs)
Lokanātha: There should not be any medical service in the building, new building, so what about there should be any other place on the land, or they should not...?
Prabhupāda: That we shall do conveniently. It is not very urgent. When there is spare room-then. Medical service is to cure the material disease, not this temporary headache and stomachache. There are so many medical services for these things, but where is the medical service for curing bhava-roga, material disease? That is wanted. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Medical service does not give any guarantee that there will be no more disease. Our service is guarantee, there will be no more birth, death, old age and disease. That is the difference. (pause) Mauritius, I was suffering so much from dental pain, I never went to the dentist; I invented my medicine, and it cured. (laughter)
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Dr. Patel: Yes. He could at least save the American government from catastrophe, how to drain before finishing this Panama Canal. The Panama Canal is an engineering feat, sir. The two sides, seas, are uneven, and they have made locks in the.... You must have seen that. No? They have locks. One side, sea is higher than the other, and they allow the ships to get to the middle lock, then pump in water and then bring on that side. Engineers must be knowing, you know. We had to study all these things, medical history.
Prabhupāda: So many medicines, vitamin D, vitamin C...
Dr. Patel: All medicines, sir, vitamins, and all even hormones...
Prabhupāda: But why not discover something that you will save from death?
Dr. Patel: But what is death, after all? Our forefathers found it out...
Prabhupāda: Then why you are trying to live?
Dr. Patel: We want to make you live in a good way so that you can think well and solve your life. That is what we are doing. We don't want to keep your, this body going on for all the time. Who says, sir? I do not think that is the aim of the medical profession, to keep...
Prabhupāda: But they have to accept because they cannot do it.
Dr. Patel: I have been very critical within myself. All my.... All my studies, medical, otherwise, I have been always...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, critical...
Dr. Patel: I have studied even geology.
Prabhupāda: Critical student, that is...
Dr. Patel: Out of just fun, what it is about. I am a student all round.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) (break) It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34). Paripraśna is required, but after praṇipāta.
Dr. Patel: Surrendering yourself. In school also they say if you develop a sort of a liking for your teacher, a sort of a reverence is developed in you, and then you get knowledge much quicker.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Not by position of birth.
Prabhupāda: No, it is clearly explained by Nārada Muni, that one has to be judged by the qualification. If the qualification.... Yady anyatrāpi diśetaḥ. If the qualification is somewhere else, then he must be designated by that qualification. Just like.... doctor's.... (Hindi) (break) ...qualification of medical man and you are practicing, that's all. Who is concerned with your caste?
Dr. Patel: So catur-varṇa is according to guṇa and karma.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Not according to his birth and position of money, birth and wealth.
Prabhupāda: And anyone can be trained up to be qualified. That medical science is open to everyone. It is not that "Such and such caste can come here." No, anyone, if you are qualified, that's all. They are accusing me that I am ruining Hinduism, but they have ruined the Hinduism.
Prabhupāda: His father was also very big man, Dr. Durgacaran Bannerjee. My sister hus..., Durgacaran Bannerjee, that is Surendranath Bannerjee father. He was a medical man.
Jayapatākā: It's a smaller road.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Doctor's land, Dr. Durgacaran Bannerjee Road, they belonged to very respectable family of that quarter, Bannerjee family. And Surendranath Bannerjee was the first I.C.S. I.C.S. He passed I.C.S. examination, Indian Civil Service, but he did not accept it. Aurobindo Ghosh was made by Surendranath Bannerjee. He was born in London. Aurobindo Ghosh's father, Manmohan Ghosh, he was a medical man in London. He was born... He's English birth. Well, later on, he became English-hater.
Prabhupāda: So anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. he's a... He's madman. Actually everyone is mad. That is the medical report. Do they give some present? No.
Kīrtirāja: Not some present, but even, even the policemen, they are stopping the traffic, especially when they see the devotees coming. In Calcutta we saw. We were driving from Germany with Gargamuni Mahārāja in those six vans, and the policemen were especially stopping the traffic so that we could come through. And in New York also, the policemen on the street, they are dancing.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Kīrtirāja: When the saṅkīrtana party is coming, sometimes they are raising their arms and they are dancing also, because they see that we are, that this movement is not like the other movements. The others, they are just staying hippies, and now they are... They have some guru.
Prabhupāda: These rascal gurus...
Kīrtirāja: Like you said yesterday, they are all rascals.
Prabhupāda: It has been discussed by that professor.
Prabhupāda: Normal life means no sickness.
Guru dāsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And as soon as there is sickness, that means punishment. So if you want to be punished, then violate the hygienic laws. You can see that there is hospital and medical treatment and medicine—for whom?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sick people.
Prabhupāda: No, for the human society. Not for the birds, beasts. But they follow nature's law. But this rascal violates nature's law and suffers.
Yadubara: What about for the devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Sometimes they are very sick, have so many...
Prabhupāda: Devotees.... To become devotee is not so cheap thing. You don't think that because you have got a tilaka you have become devotee. Why do you think like that?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prabhupāda.
Akṣayānanda: Yes. And the same person who is giving me protection, later he will ask me for protection, and then I will ask somebody else...
Prabhupāda: No, no, even when the father-mother is supposed to give protection, that is also not right conclusion. Otherwise there are so many fathers and mothers who is giving protection to his children. The father-mother, when the child is sick, the father-mother gives all—one who has got means—best medicine, best medical treatment, but the child dies. Where is the protection?
Akṣayānanda: Yes. Even that is...
Prabhupāda: It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Just like now medical science is improving means hospital increasing. That means people are becoming more diseased. And they are taking it advanced.
Dr. Patel: No, no, modern advancement is required, even hospitals. So modern medicine is always preventative.
Prabhupāda: Stop disease; otherwise where is improvement? (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...poetry, kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta). As soon as the living entity desires sense gratification, immediately māyā captures.
Dr. Patel: That is what I want. I really meant. Man is producing the desire. You cannot...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi.
Dr. Patel: New (indistinct), do you mean to say?
Prabhupāda: No, old (indistinct), everything. Yes, all, all squared up, all accounts squared up. Begin new chapter of your life. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). As soon as one begins devotional service, he shall be clean of all sinful reactions. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want.
Mike Barron: You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat?
Prabhupāda: No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not?
Mike Barron: I think I know.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Mike Barron: I think I know.
Prabhupāda: You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru. Tell me. What is the aim of life?
Mike Barron: To be happy in myself.
Prabhupāda: Now, suppose I am old man. If by some medical process, if I am given a young man's body to be more enthusiastic for working, is it not benefit for me? Similarly, in old age, when the body is changed, he gets another new body. That is a profit. There is no loss. The old body, it cannot work nicely. It cannot move nicely. Just old car.... If your old car is changed into new car, will you not accept it? So it is just like machine, car.
Brian Singer: You're not aware of this...
Prabhupāda: Aware? You have to aware, become aware by the books, by the knowledge.
Brian Singer: Do you find that in the translation from the thoughts and the Sanskrit to the English words, then from the English words to the mass of the people's heads, do you find that there is much loss?
Prabhupāda: No, if you have grasped the thought, that you can express in any language. But if you cannot grasp the thought, then you cannot express. So the.... Our translation is that we have to receive the thoughts as it is by the paramparā system. Therefore it is presented so nicely, and people like it. It is.... It is the value of the subject matter. That we have to receive from authorities. Just like any scientific book, say medical science. You cannot understand medical science by reading the books. It must be received through a medical man. Then it will be clear. Therefore the paramparā system.... Arjuna said, evaṁ paramparā... Kṛṣṇa said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2). Everything is paramparā. If you receive the knowledge from the authority, then you are in perfect knowledge, simply by..., not by reading the books. Therefore our method is to accept the perfect guru to understand the subject matter. But still, if one reads the books as it is from authorities, there is chance of understanding. Real thing is training. So our institution is training, not only training, full knowledge, practical and theoretical. That is real scientific. If you give up one side, then you can give up the theoretical side, but practical side you cannot give up. Then you'll never come. The two sides, practical and theoretical.... So that is real scientific knowledge. So two sides are presented in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and they are being thoroughly trained up. (pause) Take prasādam. (end)
Mr. Dixon: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains?
Prabhupāda: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein, and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, dahl, mean pulses, and wheat, and.... These things contain.... Pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate; and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full..., and offer to Kṛṣṇa, then it's purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasādam. If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all.
Prabhupāda: I do not know eighteen lakhs, but I know he went to Germany for medical operation and changing the gland with monkey's gland. Yes. He was eighty years old at that time.
Devotee (2): The leaders are so infected. There was an article recently...
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). That is already dictated by Bhāgavata. These leaders, rascals who are blind, and they are trying to lead other blind men. All of them are falling in the ditch.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas. What can we do?
Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas. They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas. That is social function. The first-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this?" Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras, they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. (break) The brāhmaṇas, they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas. And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra, they have no brain; they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first-class brāhmaṇa, and the kṣatriyas, if they abide by our instruction-our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction—then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs, they have begun to keep secretaries.
Guru-kṛpā: He's not living? He's dead?
Prabhupāda: No, he's dead means now he's old man. He's about my age or little older than me. Now his skin has become slackened and body is not so strong to dance. It requires exercise. Therefore he's retired, I think, maybe dead. But I don't hear his name. He was more or less known in Europe as Shankar. But he was so popular that one my doctor friend.... He was educated in London, a medical officer of Allahabad. So he told me that "I saw that in Paris, Udar Shankar's dancing was advertised, and hundreds and thousands of people from England going to Paris, crossing the Channel to see him dance." He showed me. He's so popular. And now nobody asks for him. (laughs)
Guru-kṛpā: Another bubble.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guru-kṛpā: Another bubble. I remember when Ravi Shankar and George Harrison came to see you in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like you create a motorcar for easy transportation, and you have experience: the power problem, the accident problem. If there is no power problem, you get more petrol, and you commit more accidents. And you stop car, then you are unable to move, because you now you have created city. If you want to go to consult a doctor, you have to go thirty miles from your residence. You require doctor, but because you have now car, you have big, big roads. So your doctor, medical consultant, is living thirty miles off. So you have to ride on cars to go to the market, to go to the office, to go to the medical man. So car is required. And as soon as car is there, the accident is there, and there is, power shortage is there, you require big, big roads, so on, so on, so on.
Prabhupāda: You may not. You may not, but we have got personal experience that people do not want to die until he fulfills some, his brainwork plan. I have seen. One, my friend, he was dying, he was at that time fifty-four years old only, and he was begging the doctor, "My dear doctor, medical man, can you not give me four years time only, I can fulfill my plan?" He was very big businessman, so he was planning something to do, but doctor said that "You cannot survive." So he was begging the mercy of the doctor, "Doctor, can you not give me at least four years time?" As if the doctor can give him life. He was feeling this is obstacle: "I'm going to die without fulfilling my plan." I think that psychology is everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Naturally, everyone, that is the problem of life. Otherwise, why there are so many medical colleges, drug shops and medicines, just to avoid disease? Otherwise, there was no need of arrangement. Everyone is afraid of disease, not to suffer from disease. That's a fact. If you say that you are not afraid of disease, that is something new. But unless we are afraid of disease, why there is this Memorial Hospital, this drug shop, this pharmacy? Why these things are required? We don't want it.
Richard: Right, it is not the only type, that's what I'm...
Prabhupāda: No, there are different aims also. If you are interested to become an expert medical man, then the knowledge is different. If you want to become an engineer, the knowledge is different. Similarly, if he wants to overcome all the obstacles, then this is the education.
Richard: Um hm.
Prabhupāda: This is the final.
Richard: What about other religions?
Prabhupāda: Other..., you become interested in medical, you become a medical man, you become an engineer, you become other.... You take that education. But one who is interested to stop all obstacles of life, this is the only education.
Richard: That's your goal also. Okay...
Prabhupāda: Just like a student is being trained up in medical college, and when he becomes practitioner, the same thing. There is no change. There is no change.
Richard: Yes, I think you are talking about specific...
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is.... Take Christian religion. So going to the church, it is practicing how to establish relationship with Christ and God. So after death, if he's perfect, he goes back to home, back to Godhead.
Richard: Um hm, right.
Prabhupāda: So this is practice. If one is interested in going back to home, back to Godhead, then this is the only way.
Scheverman: Everybody wants to be first class.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so why not train him? If I simply by imagination, that "I have become first class," will that do? Simply by imagination, I have become a medical man, will that do? You must have training.
Scheverman: So you say put him in a training program, and if he can make it, okay, and if he can't make it, then he'll be..., he goes as far as he can in training program.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that process we can help. Therefore how to become peaceful.
Kern: Are all the people here first class?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are training them at least.
Kern: We're training them for first class
Prabhupāda: To become first class. Because there is a great need of first-class men.
Prabhupāda: Material. When you were on the lap of your mother the body was so small. Now you are a young girl and you are.... So where is that small body? That means you have changed bodies. But your mother knows that you are the same, "My child." Because you have grown up or you have changed your body, your mother will not cry "Where is my child?" She knows that "My child is there, but she has changed body." Why these people do not understand this plain truth? Suppose you have come in this dress; next moment you come in another dress. But if I know you I'll not mistake because you have changed your dress. Similarly, we are changing our dress from baby to child, child to boy, boy to young man, young man to middle-aged man, constantly changing, every moment. Medical science also says. The blood corpuscles are changed every moment. So we are changing our body every moment. But still we cannot understand that on account of change of body, the living force within the body does not change. Is there any difficulty to understand?
Kathy Kerr: No. Does that mean then that the basic, your basic self, your basic spirit then, is innocent basically? Like if it's the same spirit throughout your life from the moment you were born on, then it is innocent and you can, you can achieve fullness...
Prabhupāda: Now first of all, let us accept that the basic principle is the soul. Now whether he is innocent or evil, that we shall consider later on. First of all, the basic power is the spirit soul. First of all we have to understand that the spirit soul is there always, although we are changing bodies. This first principle has to be.... But they do not understand. This education is lacking.
Hari-śauri: Yes, at that time, anything that was made in England automatically was considered first class.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, any rascal thing. They made a good market. And British Empire means to sell their goods. And they, for that purpose, they became rich. Money was drawn from all parts, especially from India. Everything. Later on, gradually we came to understand. In Lucknow, because I was in medical business, so I saw one Japanese salesman was selling one medicine, one or two items, potassiodide. Do you know? No. Potassium iodide. And another, iodine. He was selling at four rupees, eight annas a pound. But we were accustomed to purchase English potassiodide and iodine, thirteen rupees a pound. That Howard's.... Very famous, Howard's chemicals, like that. They were selling. So I doubted that "How so much cheap this Japanese firm can supply?" And they used to advertise that all these Japanese goods are third class. Yes, "German goods are second class. Our goods, first class." So I inquired from the salesman, "How is it that you are supplying so cheap?" "They're supplying.... The price is the real price." "Now why they charge more?" "They purchase from us and pack and sell." There are many big chemical concerns in Germany. Germans are very good manufacturers, especially of chemicals, iron, machine. Still you find, all this Uher and, what is called, Gundsag?
Hari-śauri: Grundig.
Prabhupāda: Lawyer is thief, medical man is thief.
Hari-śauri: All thieves. They're all thieves.
Prabhupāda: Then whom to believe? Whom to believe, this is the question.
Hari-śauri: The general public, they are becoming very bitter, very frustrated, because they can't turn to anyone for protection anymore. The government is the biggest thief.
Prabhupāda: Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. It is stated that all government men will be rogues and thieves. Rājanyair dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Rājanyaiḥ means government men, and dasyu-dharma means practiced to roguery, thieves.
Hari-śauri: American police are well known for being corrupt.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere. In India.
Prabhupāda: There are many medical practitioners. I have, I learned that British people, they like Indian physicians.
Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, they're very popular.
Prabhupāda: They have got faith that these people treat carefully. One civil surgeon(?) is a Bengali in London. Civil surgeon(?). You have heard this Aurabindo? His father was a medical practitioner in England, and he was born there.
Hari-śauri: His mother was Indian also or...? No. (break)
Prabhupāda: Indian families, they are living for two, three generation. (break) ...teaching them how to make home comfortable, they'll be trained up to become prostitutes. How to kill time.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa will say sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66)? Because by that action everything will be done. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam, that means He is cheating? There are so many other occupations, say veda-dharma, samāja-dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, medical dharma, lawyer dharma. You can manufacture so many occupations. Dharma means occupational duty. But if you take only one occupational duty, to serve Kṛṣṇa, all things will be included. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is instruction. So to accept this principle means firm determination, firm conviction: "Yes, if I serve Kṛṣṇa, then all my other duties will be automatically done." This is firm conviction. "By one stroke, I'll kill so many birds."
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore guru is necessary. Everyone is perplexed. Nobody can decide himself. Even a physician, a medical man, when he is sick, he does not make his own treatment. He calls for another physician because he is sick, his brain is not in order. How he can prescribe the real medicine for himself? That is natural. So similarly, when we are perplexed, bewildered, we cannot make any solution, at that time the right person, guru, is required. It is essential. You cannot avoid it. So in our present existence we are all perplexed. Arjuna is representating the perplexed position of the materialistic person. And we are actually all perplexed. So under the circumstances, to give us real direction a guru is required. Now, here is the example that Arjuna decided Kṛṣṇa as guru. He did not go to anyone else to accept as guru. The explanation is there. Find out. Na hi prapaśyāmi. "Without you I don't find anybody..."
Hari-śauri: Na hi prapaśyāmi mamāpanudyād yac chokam ucchoṣaṇam indriyāṇām, avāpya bhūmāv asapatnam ṛddhaṁ rājyaṁ surāṇām api cādhipatyam (BG 2.8). "I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not be able to destroy it even if I win an unrivalled kingdom on the earth..."
Prabhupāda: No. There is another verse that "Without You I do not find anyone else who can give me real..."
Hari-śauri: You know that one?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: And that Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsaḥ. Now here Arjuna is experienced, "You are the Supreme Brahman." So he has seen the Supreme Brahman. So you make Arjuna guru, Kṛṣṇa guru. Arjuna is representative of Kṛṣṇa, friend of Kṛṣṇa. So why do you go to a bogus guru? You must be cheated. Guru is essential. It is necessary. But take the real guru. But if you go to the bogus guru, you must be disappointed. For your treatment you need to go to a physician. That's all. When you are diseased you cannot say, "No, no, I don't want to..." It is necessary. But go to the real physician. Don't go to a cheater. He has no knowledge in the medical science, and he places himself as "I am physician, MD." Then you'll be cheated. The guru is necessary, that's a fact. But go to the real guru. Who is real guru? Real guru is Kṛṣṇa or one who has seen Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna. Take them. Then you'll be benefitted. And if you go to a bogus man who does not know Kṛṣṇa, who does not know what is Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you must be cheated. So the answer is guru is absolute necessary. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This is Vedic injunction, that one must go. But he must go to the real guru. And who is real guru? Who knows Kṛṣṇa. Take, for example, Arjuna, how he studied Kṛṣṇa. And he says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12). Read the translation.
Rūpānuga: Just the medical point of view, it is right.
Prabhupāda: You see. But they are so fools, rascals, they'll not accept it. And they'll give example, "Christ ate fish" somewhere; therefore we have to maintain the slaughterhouse. Because Christ ate fish, therefore we have to maintain slaughterhouse. Give the dog a bad name and hang it. Huh? This is going on. So we have to make vigorous propaganda for all this foolishness. Mūḍho nābhijānāti loko mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. So we are giving the best civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. With little patience and perseverance you work on it, people will take it. Because there is nothing adulteration; it is pure. Rest assured, if you follow the principles and push on according to the prescription I have given, it will be accepted. May take some time.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Slow... He'll come around.
Prabhupāda: The another medical man, he's also working?
Devotee (2): Medical man, he's very favorable. He comes every day to the temple.
Prabhupāda: So he's a devotee.
Devotee (2): He's moving in. He's going to take up a house here. He's very convinced.
Prabhupāda: He wants to give us some land?
Devotee (2): Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Fifty acres.
Prabhupāda: Include such members. Let them...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday this Sharma, Dr. Sharma, he came, and he's going to come this evening, he's quite well known as a scientist.
Prabhupāda: Medical man?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, he's not medical man, but he has two or three Ph.D.'s in two, three different fields. In engineering, in chemistry and in pathology.
Vṛṣākapi: He's becoming a life member, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That pathologist.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside) No, call Svarūpa Dāmodara.
Dr. Sharma: I shall write in books and give it to the editors here to use it the way they best can. I normally publish... I only last month got a medical prize, a large prize, for medicine. My name is known internationally, medical journals. So I'll submit it to the Book Trust.
Prabhupāda: So, you are qualified medical man?
Dr. Sharma: No, I am only in research. I am not qualified to practice medicine, but in clinical medical practice and clinical journals I am qualified. I used to be...
Prabhupāda: From chemical point.
Prabhupāda: Maybe dog or maybe somebody else; that doesn't matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the last, about three years ago or so, there is a new branch of study, it is called biomedical ethics, that deals with the symptom of death: How can one define when a person dies? What are the symptoms? and How can we judge that this man is dead? It is a great controversy in medical science.
Bali-mardana: They went to the Supreme Court to question when does death occur.
Prabhupāda: So what Supreme Court will decide? (laughter) What you nonsense judge know? He's also as good a rascal as the person who put the question.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone, the materialistic man means ghostly haunted. He's talking so many nonsense. The whole grade, philosophy, science and everything, all ghostly talking, that's all. There is no reality. Just like the new science you said, what is that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Huh?
Prabhupāda: That new medical science?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Biomedical ethics.
Prabhupāda: A big name.
Prabhupāda: That any rascal will do. Bambharambhe laghu kriya. Aparkulasvenavargolajagundakuligondoliojalīlāvale... (gibberish) (laughter) You can talk like that—what is the meaning? That intelligence they have got, to manufacture... I know, I was in the medical business. So any petty medicine, and you inquire medical man, and he'll present it in such a scientific way that people will think that it is very important thing. I know it well. In Bose's laboratory we used to do that. Aparkulavenavargolajdgunda... This is... (gibberish) Simply soda bicarb and little this and that. So the modern world means how to befool persons, that's all. Not to enlighten, but to keep them in ignorance and befool them more and more, and they like it.
Prabhupāda: That's right, accepting increase, but it is not that death is stopped. Just like they have made so many medical improvements, but that does not mean that they have stopped disease.
Hari-śauri: Well, they don't claim they can stop death.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. What is the improvement? If you stop disease, then it is improvement.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say no one can do that.
Prabhupāda: Then you are subordinate. Do not claim all in all because you are scientist. Then you are controlled. You have to accept.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We accept that no one is perfect.
Prabhupāda: No, controlled. That is their defect. They are being controlled in every step, still, they think they are free. That is their defect. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). They are fully controlled by the laws of nature, still the great rascal, he's thinking that he's free.
Interviewer: My question is because they are receiving this education, physical and spiritual education so that they will be free of corruption and sin, they might still, even with this education, they still might not be intelligent, what you consider intelligent people. How, you know... Is it more likely that they will be what you would term intelligent, having been educated in this system?
Prabhupāda: No, there are different types of education. Just like in the material world. There is education for medical man. There is education for engineer. There is education for so many other departments. Similarly, there is education how to make one man spiritual. So we are going to give education how to become spiritually advanced. That is our purpose.
Prabhupāda: And you are journalist, you are not expected to become a motor mechanic or a medical man. But your function is also required in the society. Similarly, the Vedic society was divided into different sections. That is called varṇāśrama-four varṇas, four āśramas. That is very scientific. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this system of division of society. It is perfect society. Therefore we are trying to introduce the varṇāśrama system, although it is very difficult nowadays. But if one becomes a devotee, which is above varṇāśrama-dharma, then the purpose is solved. In this age, although varṇāśrama-dharma is very scientific, and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this, but we are mostly trying to get to the topmost part of varṇāśrama, sannyāsa, or above that. That means Vaiṣṇava. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). One can immediately transcend the jurisdiction of three modes of material nature if he engages himself in the devotional service of the Lord.
Prabhupāda: That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. (laughter) You have to calculate two plus two equal to four, a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all, he'll take one ounce of blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give you a tablet, "Perhaps it may help." This is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine... (break)
Yogeśvara: ...some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees medical knowledge?
Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything?
Hari-śauri: There's lots of doctors, but there's no brāhmaṇas, devotees.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So the principle is, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men have to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point.
Prabhupāda: Different plants?
Jyotirmāyī: Plants, yes, here we have so many different plants growing, some medical plants, some that can be eaten. Is there any use?
Prabhupāda: No. Different plants, that is botanical study, that has also no utilization. But you can teach them, "Just see, this plant is coming from earth. The earth is the mother of this plant." These things you can convince them. Is it not a fact? The grass is coming, the tree is coming, and the animal eating grass. Then the animal is coming. The man is eating food grains, then man is coming. So originally the earth is the mother, feeding everyone. Is there any denial? What do you think? So earth is the mother of all living entities, convince them. So all living entities are children. Mother earth is the mother. The father? Where is father, find out. Everyone has got idea, father, mother and children. Children are there. The mother is there. Where is the father? If somebody says "I have not seen father; how can I recognize father?" that does not mean... Because the mother is there, because the children are there, there must be father. If you do not know, try to know it from your mother, from your superior. From Veda-mātā. You have to know from the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: That, here is the society. You train them. You have got all children. You train them in that way, so that... Whatever is done is done. Now you can make very good society, Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Not that one mistake has been done, you should continue. Rectify it. The difficulty is the modern society, the leaders, they do not know the aim of life. They are blindly doing everything like animals. Their philosophy is like the animals. Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy, that's all. This is the philosophy of the animals. And human philosophy is to understand first of all what I am. I am this body or something else? That is human life. But nobody questions this, there is no institution to teach this science, therefore the whole human society is misguided. Just like if I want to train my boy to become a medical man, then I teach him biology, botany, similar... So if... Because I know I shall make my boy a medical man. Similarly, we should know what is the aim of human life. Then we have to construct the social political, everything, favorable to that end. But they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the whole mistake. I think that in Bible there is a story, prodigal son? So we are prodigal son. We are all sons of God, now we have become prodigal sons. What is the meaning of prodigal? "Without any responsibility," is it not? Do whatever you like.
Prabhupāda: Yes. By shaving, there are so many shaven headed. Does it means that he's in the process? Just like a doctor carries one stethoscope. But if somebody thinks "Let me carry a stethoscope, I'll become a doctor." But for a doctor the stethoscope is required. But a false man takes a stethoscope and declares himself a doctor, medical man, that is cheating. (pause) You get your puffed rice? No. Get?
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Let me ask. We may have little bit.
Prabhupāda: No, here they prepare puffed rice?
Atreya Ṛṣi: No, from India or from America. We don't...
Prabhupāda: You get imported.
Prabhupāda: No, they are also asuras. They do not know what is the meaning of meditation. That is psychology. It is not meditation. Or some medical treatment. Meditation is different, real meditation.
Devotee: What is... What is real meditation?
Prabhupāda: Real meditation is to find out the Supersoul within the core of the heart. That is real meditation. God is situated in everyone's heart, so the yogis, they try to find out the Supersoul within the heart. That is real yogi. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginam. This is real yogi, trying to contact the Supersoul. They are searching after the God in His all-pervading feature. But, ah, some of them, they want to become one. That is asuric. One with God, that is asuric. Because they are being defeated by God, so therefore they want to become God to stop this defeat. That is asuric. Therefore they will never be able to be, but they are trying for it.
Prabhupāda: No, therefore he has to accept spiritual master to guide him. Just like simply by reading books you do not become educated. You go to school and read before the teacher. Then you'll understand. You cannot become a medical man by purchasing books from the market and reading at home. You must go to the medical college. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Not only reading, but you go to the person who is actually realized. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). Everything is there. You cannot understand individually. That is not possible. If you are extraordinarily intelligent, you can do that. That is exception. But ordinarily it is not possible. Therefore the spiritual master is there. He'll guide you. What is that?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is watermelon, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: You are giving all of them?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, it's from our garden(?).
Prabhupāda: Give me one piece. For any intelligent man, Bhagavad-gītā is perfect knowledge. There is no doubt about it. But unfortunately most men are rascals. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is perfect instruction. There is no doubt about it. How can I deny? God is speaking personally.
Prabhupāda: Before this, one Monmohan Gosh, Dr. Monmohan Gosh, he was pathologist in medical college. He proved the antiseptic properties of gobara. He was Dr. Gosh's friend. So he was working in his laboratory also. I know. Long ago.
Dr. Patel: And in gomūtra, sir, there are so many hormones coming, and a big sample of hormones which can be resynthesized as human hormones. That is why gomūtra is being drunk.
Prabhupāda: Gomūtra is good medicine for liver disease. If you drink urine of...
Dr. Patel: Yes, it is proved scientifically so many hormones and by-products and hormones which can be resynthesized into human hormones, modern science.
Indian: (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: That's right, gomūtra is considered sacred by we people that we put a drop in the newly born child's mouth.
Prabhupāda: Pañca-gavya, gomūtra is one of the parts. Pañca-gavya.
Prabhupāda: Medicine. Just like a type of vairāgya, sometimes they do not eat. That does not mean eating is forbidden. It is not. It is my personal, I am trying to avoid, that's all. There was a big friend of W. C. Bannerji. You have heard the name W. C. Bannerji? He was one of the three inaugurators of Congress in the beginning. No, that Bannerji, Surendranatha Bannerji, he came later. Almost contemporary. But the Congress was started by I think, yes, W. C. Bannerji. W. C. Bannerji was a big barrister. So he had his friends, contemporary. So he was also brāhmaṇa. So when... He was taking daily his bath in the Ganges, and if he was diseased, was drinking Ganges water. So he became seriously sick. So this W. C. Bannerji, he was a big man. So he asked his permission to bring some doctor. "You'll die in this way."(?) So he persisted, "No, I shall simply drink this Ganges water." So it is not that medical science is in defeated position.
Prabhupāda: No. Suppose, just like you are medical man, you are giving somebody medicine, you are giving the direction. If he wants to be cured, he must take your direction. Not that somebody comes, "No, no, you can take it this way, you can do this." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This nonsense we want to stop. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instruction, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12), the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What business you have got to poke your nose and give interpretation? Are you bigger than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa left it for you? This nonsense going on. Big, big swamis, big, big yogis, big, big politicians, simply misinterpreting, he's spoiling his own life and he's spoiling others. Bas. This is going on. Very serious condition.
Prabhupāda: This is paramaṁ guhyam. And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Bas, all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog, just become a dog. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Just like your medical science, you have infected the disease, you must suffer disease. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ, guṇa-saṅgaḥ. There's infection.
Prabhupāda: On account of his being in touch with the material energy, he has to suffer or enjoy the modes of material nature. Modes of material nature. And because, just like in your medical science one is suffering from a certain type of disease on account of his being infected by the similar verus or..., what is called?
Mahāṁśa: Virus.
Prabhupāda: Virus.
Prabhupāda: So, if from... Just like medical science... It is also a medical science. Bhavauṣadhi. It is... auṣadhi means medical science. This is bhavauṣadhi. By this treatment one becomes relieved from the material disease. Bhavauṣadhi. Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. But the medicine is so nice that it is pleasing to the ears and to the heart. The medicine pleasing to the ear? What is that.
Mahāṁśa: Hari-nāma.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Guest: (Bengali) We decide a date, and take... Not too... We have no means for having too many people, but about dozen people, or ten people can come. And they will have all facility. We can arrange a station wagon and everything there. You have to come up to Kore Canal(?) Road Station. And if you like we shall arrange for your departure from Madras. We will come with you. We will accompany you all the way. (Bengali conversation interspersed) When you come there I'll get everything ready. It is settled you are coming at there earliest.
Prabhupāda: As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught: how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Āstikyam. In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brāhmaṇa, a department of kṣatriya—that education must be given. But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the śāstra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job, therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ, in this age almost everyone is śūdra. So if śūdras are there only, if there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, that society will not prosper very much. If we accept the injunction of the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma (BG 16.23). So this brāhmaṇa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth. It is by qualification. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa. One must acquire the quality of brāhmaṇa and he must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then he is brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Even in śūdra family, if one is born śūdra, but he has attained the quality of a brāhmaṇa, he must be accepted as brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra injunction.
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, countries like Russia and China, what actual progress they have made?
Krishna Modi: That is... They say like that, that we are giving very good food to everybody, very good house, and living, and all their (indistinct), education, medical free. We are giving the to common men...
Prabhupāda: Medical (indistinct) is free. Free medical service, education... (break)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...and in the offices of big, big professors and all, it looks so much lower than in America or Canada.
Krishna Modi: And in the comparison of India?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in some respects I found them even lower than India. You'll be amazed... I visited all the leading libraries of Russia and Leningrad. Moscow University Library, all the big libraries. These libraries don't have any foreign exchange for ordering these books. They all want to order... They were begging me for free books. They said, "Why don't you give us a donation or exchange." They have a book exchange that if they give their books then we give our books. Each library gets such little foreign exchange allowance to buy books from abroad.
Prabhupāda: A taxi driver, he was asking some bhakshish.
Caraṇāravindam: Lord Caitanya, He had the mango tree grow almost instantly with His direction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He can do that because He is Kṛṣṇa. Immediately He can do. That is His inconceivable energy. Now by medical treatment man is made into woman, and woman is made man. Is it not?
Hari-śauri: Yes, there was that article in the Blitz the other day.
Prabhupāda: So formerly, by simply desire of very exalted person like Lord Śiva and others, they could turn a man into woman, woman into man.
Hari-śauri: I heard a story, Viśvāmitra once he grew people from trees. Is that correct?
Prabhupāda: Everything is possible by Kṛṣṇa's inconceivable energy. Everything is possible. That is inconceivable. It is called therefore "inconceivable." You, we cannot conceive how it is done. Our intelligence is very little. We cannot conceive. Therefore we say, "Oh, this is all mythology." Because we cannot conceive of it. Whatever we cannot conceive we take it as mythology. Nothing is mythology. Everything is possible. That is inconceivable. But they cannot understand what is inconceivable. Unless it is conceivable by them, they do not accept. That is their foolishness. We can see at night worms or flies so small Just like if you divide one grain of rice into one hundred divisions one division—such a small fly. They are independently walking, flying. Freedom. Now just imagine how their anatomic physiology is manufactured within that small (indistinct) of life. But he's exactly doing everything just like a big fly. How it is doing? Therefore I said in that, my interview.
Prabhupāda: The hospital men, they do not take it serious, "It is natural, a man and woman." But it is strictly forbidden according to spiritual life.
Akṣayānanda: By law the doctor has to perform so many operations in his day of practice, medical practice. One doctor came here, he was our main member. He said, "I have to go back to practice now. I have so many cases, sterilizations to perform in this day. Otherwise I won't get paid. I will not be able to live now. Because I must perform so many..." Large figure. I've forgotten how many. Maybe one dozen in one day. One dozen, fifteen in one day. He must perform by law.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Prabhupāda: Then if you could not learn the art, at the same time you miss Kṛṣṇa's service. So that is not our principle. We want to serve Kṛṣṇa, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Whatever work you already expert, you do that. Just like he is doing. Whatever he knows, he is giving service. He's not going for sewing cloth. Because he does not know that. Why should he waste time? He knows this art, let him do. That is service. Whatever you know, Kṛṣṇa can accept any service. Kṛṣṇa is not one-sided. Because He is everything, so he can accept every service, anything. That is stated, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Whatever you know, you try to please Kṛṣṇa, or Kṛṣṇa's representative. The same thing. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Whatever you know, saṁsiddhiḥ, the perfection is, hari-toṣaṇam. So we... Whatever we already know. If he's a medical man, whatever little medical knowledge he has got, he can utilize it by serving. Why he should go to Āyur-vedic? That is not.
Devotee: Long time ago you wrote a letter to Jadurāṇī to do that. Jadurāṇī, she wants to do service.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I thought that when she first came I saw that here she has got a little tendency for painting. So I engaged immediately, that you go on painting, whatever you can. So in the beginning she was not good painter. But still I said, "Anyway, you paint Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda. And whatever you paint, it is accepted." It is not the art, but it is the service.
Hari-śauri: His point was that he doesn't have any service. So he was thinking if he learned something, because he already has a medical background...
Prabhupāda: So let him serve in that way. If he has got a little medical background, let him utilize that.
Hari-śauri: Yes. He wanted to branch out into Āyur-vedic so that he could...
Prabhupāda: That is his whims. That is not service.
Prabhupāda: So that is done by medical men also, so what is the excellence. Huh?
Hari-śauri: One man said that once he was traveling in his car and a train came, and the train hit the car and he was thrown out, but somehow or other he survived. He said he was thrown out to the left hand side and the train stopped, came to a sudden standstill just as it hit the car. So then he said he went to see Sai Baba, and then Sai Baba looked at him and he said, "Oh, you have been in an accident and your car was hit by the train. But I stopped the train and threw you to the left and therefore you were not injured." Like this. And he also mentioned that at that time you should think of God.
Prabhupāda: If he can do so, can he save him from death? If he's so powerful.
Prabhupāda: Whatever your father and mother has chosen, that's all. He's your worshipable husband. This is the... This point I wanted to bring. And her father was surprised. "How is that? I got you married with an old man? Somehow or other, circumstances I was obliged. How is that you have picked up one young man?" He chastised her like anything. Then when he came to understand that the same old man has become now young man by medical treatment, then he was satisfied. So you cannot change. I have seen it. One, my father's friend, he was very old man. My father was also... He was at that time not less than sixty-five. But his wife died, and he was married with another young girl. But his sister forced him to marry. That "Unless you marry, who will look after you? You have no children." But I have seen that young woman who was married with that gentleman... In our childhood we used to called her didi. Didi means elder sister. So the relationship was very thick and thin. But that old man, not less than sixty-five, and this young woman, utmost twenty to twenty-five. She was serving the husband like anything. We have seen it. There is no question of changing or being dissatisfied.
Prabhupāda: Oh, League was that, that was... I was trying to collect some devotees. Some of them, they were medical... Yes. Medical students. So they came and used to live with me. But still, I lived there for two years. From 1954 to '56. I had some surgical operation in my testicles there. They were taking care. This Prabhākāra and... They were not full time. They were students. That's all. They were living with me.
Hari-śauri: But your Bhāgavatams, it says they were published by the League of Devotees. Does that just mean yourself or there were others?
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That was... League of Devotees was my organization. Therefore I gave that name.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, they are, they have gone in the... They are practicing as medical men. They were students, medical students. Now they are practicing.
Hari-śauri: They don't come to see you or anything now?
Prabhupāda: Sometime they came. Long time it is passed. That was in 1956 or '55. No, '54.
Hari-śauri: In Jhansi.
Prabhupāda: So, twenty years past. More than twenty years. You can speak of twenty years history. What is that? (end)
Prabhupāda: Hm? Here this side, this space some connection, when it is affected that is called laryngitis.
Hari-śauri: Hm.
Prabhupāda: I know some of the medical terms.
Devotee (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Now this disease is called laryngitis.
Devotee (1): Yeah.
Prabhupāda: No, philosophy is there. Court case means there is philosophy, there is logic. So for that we have got so many books. We can... But general mass of people, chanting. When there is court case we are prepared to defend. We have got... We are not fools. We can talk that what is the aim of life. They cannot say anything. The transmigration of the soul, the aim of life which we are discussing in our book, that's fact. How he can deny the transmigration of the soul from one body to another? And if that is accepted, the whole problem is solved. He does not know what kind of life he is going to get. Therefore they do not accept this philosophy. If once accepted, then next question—"What kind of life we are going to get, either to become a tree or a dog or human being?" What arrangement you have done that you will get next life human being? Then the pious and impious activities comes one after another. The basic principle they are denying. "After this body is finished, everything is finished." Bhāsmi bhūtasya dehasya punar agama...(?) "The body will be burned into ashes, and where is life? Who is coming? Who is going? That's all." They do not see the soul. Their medical science cannot find out where is soul. How do they say the... The soul means intelligence, they say. Otherwise how do they say the animal has no soul? Why do they say? What is the... "Man has soul," they say. "The animal has no soul."
Prabhupāda: No. They can, but they do not show like that. Otherwise artificially one would like to imitate it.
Mr. Malhotra: But in the medical theory they are saying so much insomnia.
Prabhupāda: No insomnia, he becomes mad. (laughter) That is another thing. That is disease.
Hari-śauri: One of my parent's friends, she hadn't been to sleep for 7 months because of a nervous condition when she was going crazy. I saw that.
Mr. Malhotra: There must be sleeping pills.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in western countries, tranquilizer.
Prabhupāda: They will be cheated.
Indian doctor: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the medical we are preparing (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: So now it is late. So you stay, take prasāda.
Indian doctor: No, I'm... I am here only for three, four times a year. And get everything done. I'll give instruction in writing, they will write it down and I'll be there till evening or five tomorrow and go out for the preparation. These are to be taken with the the bath.
Prabhupāda: All right. Do it. For the time being, what I took yesterday, my lunch, I'll take. And these things we can begin from tomorrow because it is already arranged.
Dr. Patel: Even those who are with Baroda Maharaj and all Maharaj's speeches were written by (indistinct) so one can (indistinct) These are your ideas Maharaj, "Well, everyone knows that I am writing it. It doesn't matter. I won't correct it." All the speeches given by Maharaj of Baroda was written by (indistinct). All, all, practically all. Here's a reference there. And he was a great scholar after all.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. He was English born. His father was medical man. Dr. Madanmohan Bannerji.
Dr. Patel: They say he did not know even Bengali properly.
Prabhupāda: Yes. How he can? He was born in England. Educated in England. He was English-born.
Dr. Patel: Then he became a master in Sanskrit. That is a great, I mean intelligent...
Prabhupāda: That may be. He was a scholar. They were big scholars. He was professor in Baroda University.
Prabhupāda: No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad-gītā, patient and physician.
Dr. Patel: Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So he has written that Kṛṣṇa is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries. Without touching the spirit of Bhagavad-gītā.
Dr. Patel: Best commentary is the Bhagavad-gītā itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ.
Prabhupāda: And commentary, interpretation required when you cannot understand. It is very easy and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is... And perhaps, this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did.
| Page Title: | Medical (Conversations 1975 - 1976) |
| Compiler: | Rishab, Mayapur, Visnu Murti |
| Created: | 18 of May, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=121, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 121 |