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Legal (Conversations)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Radio Interview -- March 12, 1968, San Francisco:

Interviewer: You do perform wedding ceremonies?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Interviewer: What is your wedding ceremony like?

Prabhupāda: The same chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Interviewer: Is it considered a legal wedding ceremony in this country?

Prabhupāda: Yes, our society is incorporated under the religious act of New York state.

Interviewer: All right, caller, you're on the air on KGO with the Swami.

Caller: I'd like to tell your guest that the other day I received a beautiful letter from the Boston āśrama from Miss Prudence Farrow, Miss Mia Farrow's sister... Are you listening?

Interviewer: Yeah, you got a letter from Mia Farrow's...

Caller: No, her sister, yes, Prudence, from this gentleman's Boston āśrama.

Prabhupāda: No.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of sitting if you don't control your attention? Then you are simply wasting time. Why do you come? That is understood. When you come to hear, that means you must hear with attention. But this is a concession, that even if you don't hear with attention, you become purified. But if you do it, it is very nice. You make progress. You get the result very quickly. So success of life is to please Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord, by one's occupational duty. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitena dharmena. Svanuṣṭhitena dharmena saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). One should try to satisfy the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead. And Lord Caitanya also recommends that "You remain in your occupation. That doesn't matter. But you submissively try to hear." So we are giving this chance to the people "Please come and hear." But they are not prepared even for that thing. The age is so strong, the Kali-yuga, that it will dictate. Māyā will dictate, "Why you go there? What is there?" But actually, those who have come to us, those who are following, they are so much changed. That is a fact. They are seeing. They are hearing, "It will be." They are seeing, "It is." Still, they are not interested. Just like a class of men, they see that a person who has committed theft is arrested by police, and he is hearing that "If you commit theft, then you will be sinful or you will be caught by the laws of the state." So seeing and hearing, still he is committing theft. Why? By experience, practical experience, he is seeing that "Here is a man, committed theft. He is punished. He is going to be arrested by the police." And he has heard also that if somebody commits theft, he will be punished. So what do you want? Two things are required. Dekha śroṇa(?), seeing and hearing, for gaining knowledge. So he has got knowledge by seeing and hearing, but still... That means the heart is not clear. So this thing will be helpful for clearing the heart. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). Simply by legal obligation one cannot be purified.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 11, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: Consult, consult.

Allen Ginsberg: I can't even understand an authority that says that I am there when I don't feel myself there.

Prabhupāda: Well, suppose when you are in some legal trouble, you go to lawyer. You cannot understand. Why do you say you cannot understand? Where you have disease where do you go to a physician. You see? Authority you accept.

Allen Ginsberg: In America we've had a great deal of difficulty with authority.

Prabhupāda: No that is, that is...

Allen Ginsberg: No, here is a special problem.

Prabhupāda: That is, that is, I mean to say, misunderstanding. Authority we have to. The child has to accept authority. Always ask mother what is this father, what is this...? Why? That is the beginning: ask, ask, ask. That is the way of acquiring knowledge. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa... The Vedic injunction is there, if you want to understand that science, you must to go to guru.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: That is due to analyze. That's right. That's from common sense point of view.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, another, another instance is there. Just like conchshell. Conchshell is the bone of an animal. So according to Vedic instruction, if you touch the bone of an animal, you become impure. You have to take bath. You become impure. But this conchshell is kept in the deity room because it's accepted as pure by the Vedas. So my point is that we accept Vedic laws in such a way, without argument, accept because it is stated in the Vedas, and that is the principle followed by scholars. If you can substantiate your statement by quoting from the Vedas, then it is accepted. You do not require to substantiate in other ways if you prove by Vedic quotation. Śruti-pramāṇa. It is called śruti-pramāṇa. There are different kinds of pramāṇa, evidences. Just like in the legal court if you can give quotation from the law books, your statement is accepted, similarly, all statements which you give, if they are supported by śruti-pramāṇa... I think you know. The Vedas are known as Śrutis.

Room Conversation -- August 14, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: America is more tolerant, I think.

Devotee: More tolerant. (laughs) America is more tolerant. But they're not arresting now, you see, and wherever they go, they chant freely, but here almost every week we are arrested on the streets and harassed.

Guest (2): Is it because possibly because you are less well known over here than in America?

Revatīnandana: No. Because a very conservative legal system and obsolete laws, like that.

Sister Mary: What law can arrest you?

Devotee: Well, we fought this out in the court here and the magistrate allowed that we can chant. There is no law who can stop chanting. But the police, authorities, they say, well, "You are obstructing the traffic." And under that we are arrested.

Prabhupāda: They can find out anything.

Room Conversation -- August 15, 1971, London:

Kulaśekhara: One barrister, one of the top judges in England, a top man, top doctor, he said children should have sex life at fourteen. He said this in the newspaper two days ago. He said children at fourteen should be allowed to have sex life. He said this should be made legal. He's a top doctor or judge.

Prabhupāda: Children?

Śyāmasundara: Children should be allowed to have sex life at fourteen years old.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is psychological. They develop... Sex life, sex urge is there as soon as twelve years, thirteen years old, especially women. So therefore early marriage was sanctioned in India. Early marriage. Boy fifteen years, sixteen years, and girl twelve years. Not twelve years, ten years. I was married, my wife was eleven years. I was 22 years. She did not know what is sex, eleven years' girl. Because Indian girls, they have no such opportunity of mixing with others. But after the first menstruation, the husband is ready. This is the system, Indian system.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1971, London:

Haṁsadūta: Sport.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes.

Haṁsadūta: A big sport festival in Munchen. (break) And so we have some girls and they have asked us, they want to be married. What is our position?

Prabhupāda: Be married legally first.

Haṁsadūta: Legally. And they will be living outside the temple for sure. Is that correct, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: And with a job and like that.

Prabhupāda: No, they can live in the temple...

Haṁsadūta: But they will live separate .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Then what is the use of getting married? (end)

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Dr. Weir: A Latin legal phrase: causa causam, the cause of the cause.

Prabhupāda: So God is cause of all causes. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is explicitly said,

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
iti matvā bhajante māṁ
budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
(BG 10.8)

"I am the original source of everything. Everything is emanating from Me." Iti matvā, understanding like this, budhā. Budhā means those who are conversant, thoroughly in knowledge. Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva samanvitāḥ, in ecstasy, "Oh, here is the original cause of all causes." So in this way those who are advanced in knowledge, budhā, they engage themselves in the service of the original cause of all causes. He's the cause of all causes, but He has no cause. That is God. Anādir ādir govindam. He has no cause, but He's the cause of all life. That is God. Just like I am the effect, my father is the cause. Similarly, my grandfather is the cause of my father. My grandfather is the effect of the cause of great-grandfather. You go on searching out, searching out. So when you find out the original cause, that is God. That is the definition of God.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Bob: Many people see that even marriage is not sacred. So they find no desire to... Because people get married, and if things are not proper they get divorced so very easy...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that also.

Bob: ...that some people feel to get married is not meaningful.

Prabhupāda: No, the idea is that marriage is not sacred. They think marriage is a legalized prostitution. They think like that, but marriage is not that. Even that Christian paper, what is that, "Watch...?"

Śyāmasundara: Christian..."Watchtower?"

Prabhupāda: "Watchtower." It has criticized, one priest has allowed the marriage between man to man, homosex. So these things are going on. They take it purely for prostitution. That's all. So therefore people are thinking, "What is the use of keeping a regular prostitution at a cost of heavy expenditure? Better not to have this."

Room Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo:

Pradyumna: By sex desire alone the world is created by...

Prabhupāda: Sex. Yes. Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. Kim anyat kāma-haitukam: "Except sex desire, where is the other cause of creation?" That is atheistic theory. Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. So all of a sudden two opposite parties become sexually inclined, and by chance there is pregnancy and there is production. This is their theory. There is no plan. It is like this. Because they are creating like that, there is no plan. Then why there is...? Therefore they say, "It is legalized prostitution, marriage. There is no need of marriage."

Pradyumna: Oh.

Prabhupāda: "Why should we go under legal?"

Pradyumna: Why should there be a plan when it comes...

Prabhupāda: This is... This is their atheistic theory. But our Vedic civilization is putrārthe kriyate bhārya putra-piṇḍa-prayojanam. Prayojanam. Piṇḍa, piṇḍa-dāna, offering piṇḍa by the son, is necessity, puṇyena narakāt trāyate, because the son delivers the forefathers from the hellish condition of life. There are so many plans, and they say, "Oh, there is no plan." Ignorance. We say that there is necessity of a putra, or a son. Therefore to have a son, a wife is necessary. Therefore wife is accepted. This is a plan. But they say that it is... "Whenever you feel, just like cats and dogs, sexually inclined, have sex." That's all. Where is plan? This is difference between atheist and theist. They have no plan.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversations with Sannyasis -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: At Singapore our men cannot enter.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Devotee (2): This has happened.

Devotee (3): There's many places that, although legally we can enter, still people don't like us, you know.

Prabhupāda: That Singapore (indistinct) enter.

Śyāmasundara: They wouldn't even let you enter.

Morning Walk -- December 31, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: The government allow?

South American Devotee: Oh yeah.

Prabhupāda: It is legal. Just see. Where it is?

South American Devotee: South Argentina.

Prabhupāda: Now, if you analyze the present human society, you will find there is not a single human being. All animals. All animals. Not a single human being. (Bengali) What is time now?

Bahulāśva: Nine o'clock, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So let us go. (break) People, they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the difficulty.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- February 22, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) out of these boys. They smoke even in the classrooms, in their residences...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...in their university camps and everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Now it is going to be legalized.

Dr. Patel: Smoking?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Just like they have legalized the prostitution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anything... Because it is vote. Majority wants. "All right. Make it legalized."

Dr. Patel: All, they have...

Prabhupāda: Same thing here even. Majority wants to be godless. So government is following that. Therefore they are against our movement. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. Namaskāra. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now the vox populi. Majority wants to become drunkards. "All right, it is legalized." Majority wants prostitute hunters. "All right. It is legalized." This is government. No consideration of morality or religion. Majority wants, it must be given.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1974, Rome:

Yogeśvara: But that's not possible for the mass of people.

Prabhupāda: No, why not possible? We have got so many, just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He remained completely brahmacārī, although naked he is. He is. He doesn't require, and neither he is agitated. Just like when he was passing, the girls were taking bath. They did not take care. They knew that he is not at all affected by any woman. And when his father was going, they covered. So father inquired, Vyāsadeva, a personality like Vyāsadeva, said, "Why you covered? I am old man, and my young son he was passing naked." They said that "He is paramahaṁsa. He has no agitation of the mind. But you are gṛhastha. You live with woman. You have got distinction, man and woman." So this is civilization. What is the use of sex life? It is simply entanglement. Therefore, at the last stage, one is supposed to become sannyāsī. What is sannyāsī? Vānaprastha, sannyāsī, brahmacārī—no sex life. Out of the four different status of life, the brahmacārī has no sex life, the vānaprastha has no sex life, the sannyāsī has no sex life. Only the gṛhastha. That means it is prohibitory. It is allowed—it is simply concession to the person who cannot remain without sex life. It is simply a concession. Otherwise, according to Vedic civilization, there is no need of sex life. Because it is entanglement, simply entanglement. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). The example has been given. There is itching between the two hands. That's all. That means the itching disease is increased. This has been the description of sex life. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Although behind the sex life there are so many troubles, but still the rascals do not cease. Either illicit sex or legal sex... Legal sex you beget children. There are so many troubles.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Yogeśvara: Well, he says it's difficult to be any kind of doctor or professor unless you are properly qualified.

Prabhupāda: No, from this point of... He is right. Unless he has got the medical degrees, unless he is educated... We also say that thing, that unless one is sufficiently educated in medical science or legal science, he cannot be said a medical man or a legal man.

C. Hennis: You see, my organization represents all the states in the world practically, all the states of any importance in the world, with the exception of a few like Monaco and San Marino and Andorra and that kind of place. And through my organization, the states of the world, and that doesn't only mean governments, express their concern and endeavor to improve the lot of all of the people who are active in some way in the economy and in modern society, these may be professional workers. We don't deal with medical doctors because that is the problems of the World Health Organization. We don't deal with teachers and university professors and philosophers and so on because that is more the problem of UNESCO, and they deal with it very thoroughly. We don't deal by any means fully with the actual production of foodstuffs. This is the FAO, the Food and Agriculture Organization who does it. What we do do, we look after the rewards the people get for the work they do in the ordinary way of life as employees in offices, in banks, in commerce, in shops, trading. We are very interested in developing rural areas and in improving the lot of the rural worker so that the rural worker will no longer be under a disadvantage by comparison with the workers in the towns, so that they will have proper facilities, proper leisure and proper opportunities for self-improvement.

Prabhupāda: I may say in this connection, in America, the laborer class is very highly paid. Anyone, any labor class man can earn $25, $50, daily, very easily. But because there is no direction of the brain, these labor class of men—I have seen—they—especially these Negroes—51%, they are drunkards. They spend their money in drinking. They do not know how to utilize the money. Because the brain is not giving direction. Or they have no brain. "I have got so money. How I shall utilize it?" As soon as he gets money, he use it, he uses it for drinking. You may think that you are sufficiently paying to the labor class, worker class, but because he is not guided by brain, he is misspending the money.

Room Conversation with Scientists -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Madhudviṣa: The Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages.

Prabhupāda: And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that?

Satsvarūpa: "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell...

Guest (2): Yes, if we were alarmed we wouldn't be here.

Prabhupāda: No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and... It is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasurehouse of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is an institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know what is the active principle of life.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Varṇa-saṅkara. There is no varṇāśrama; therefore all the children, they are varṇa-saṅkara. And as soon as there is varṇa-saṅkara population, the world becomes hell. Therefore we are trying to check—"No illicit sex"—to stop this varṇa-saṅkara. Now the varṇa-saṅkara has come to such an extent that they are killing child, and that is legal. They have come down to such a extreme position.

Guest (4): But surely there is a practical point of view also. There is nothing to eat. What will happen?

Prabhupāda: Who says nothing to eat? That is also their manufacture.

Guest (4): I mean the figures which are published that half of humanity will starve.

Prabhupāda: It's... Especially, we are Indian. It is advertised that we are poverty-stricken. All over the world this is advertised. Wherever I go, they say, "Oh, you are coming from India?" (laughter) Because they are simply begging, the government. But who is dying? There is... Dying is going on, but that death is going on in other countries also. They are dying, committing suicide. And maybe some persons are dying out of starvation. You cannot stop death. Suppose you have got enough food. That means that everything is solved? In America there is enough food. Why they are coming hippies? There is no shortage of food. Nothing... Everything is abundant, but why they are becoming hippies? They are lying down on the street, on the park and I have seen in London, the St. James Park. They are sleeping, and the police is kicking: "Hey! Get up! Get up!" So why? The English nation is not poor nation. The American nation is not poor nation.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) If you want to act as lawyer, you must learn. You must have legal education. (to devotees:) So you take your bath and prasādam. Wherefrom you are coming?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From New York.

Prabhupāda: Oh, direct?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How many hours?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actual flight time was twenty-three hours, but with the time change, about thirty-six hours.

Prabhupāda: You were in the, thirty-six hours in the plane?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we were in the plane about twenty-four hours.

Prabhupāda: Three hours extra. We had to come here, twenty-one hours.

Conversation with the GBC -- March 27, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Discuss and do it, and make a final...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Oath of Allegiance is a legal document also, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Eh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's both a legal document and a spiritual document.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Everything we have is spiritual.

Prabhupāda: We cannot avoid.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there must be legal also. That's the point.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Conversation with the GBC -- March 27, 1975, Mayapur:

Satsvarūpa: All right. So the whole thing, then, would read like... This is a proposal that it should read like this: "I, spiritual name, as initiated disciple, and GBC secretary of His Divine Grace..."

Madhudviṣa: Both names should be there.

Atreya Ṛṣi: No, prabhuji...

Madhudviṣa: Spiritual and, and, and legal name...

Atreya Ṛṣi: It should start with this.

Satsvarūpa: Well, it's not sure what it should start with. That's it.

Madhudviṣa: Both names should be there because a spiritual name is not legal.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact.

Jayatīrtha: Both names. Good.

Satsvarūpa: "...as GBC secretary of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder..."

Prabhupāda: You... You... You make one copy, your copy, and make addition, alteration, corrections, and then copy the same thing for other men. That will be easier.

Conversation with the GBC -- March 27, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Now, one thing is that sometimes before, Jayatīrtha suggested that if the ISKCON goes to liquidation, then the BBT also will be affected.

Atreya Ṛṣi: This is only a legal matter.

Prabhupāda: Legal matter. So I want to protect BBT.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Legally, you will want. But, in fact, GBC is also concerned...

Prabhupāda: That you are concerned. You do this—now how to stop these complaints.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now they want to maintain from the GBC income. How this can be avoided, you consider.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It is not something we forget because it's BBT.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But these are the important problems, that the, here in India, the members are complaining. Sometimes they are sending complaining to me. So the first business is how to, how the collection from the membership is being dispersed, how the money is being dispersed. Suppose I... He is a member. I take him, 222. Then how the money is being spent?

Conversation with the GBC -- March 27, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means, practically speaking, the management... The BBT is separate from ISKCON for legal purposes, but the management of it is done by the GBC.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's nice.

Atreya Ṛṣi: However, at the present, Prabhupāda himself is heading this management.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's heading every management.

Atreya Ṛṣi: But in this particular case he's heading it very particularly. This is something...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Because it's very sensitive issue. It doesn't mean separate.

Rūpānuga: But now, we discussed this... We discussed this before, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You said that you didn't... You wanted to make some more BBT members.

Prabhupāda: If I require, I can make.

Conversation with the GBC -- March 27, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: And Karandhara is taking one thousand dollars?

Jayatīrtha: Well, here's the problem, that because it is a business, people must, that work there, have to get regular salary and pay taxes. Otherwise we can get in a lot of trouble. We can get in a lot of trouble. Maybe Bhagavān may know.

Bhagavān: Well, I have the same thing in France. Spiritual Sky is a legal business. That means you have to legally employ people. But I employ the temple people and just take their salary.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. That's all right.

Bhagavān: Do you take Karandhara's salary?

Jayatīrtha: No, that's a different thing. Anyway, let me finish the point. The point is that legal salary has to be paid, and then taxes have to paid from that. So for example, Karandhara's salary is not really a good example because he doesn't give fifty percent. But one thousand dollars is the salary.

Bhagavān: Minimum? Minimum salary?

Prabhupāda: No.

Jayatīrtha: That eight hundred, two hundred goes for taxes...

Prabhupāda: No our, our... That was the... Formerly, who was managing?

Jayatīrtha: Formerly, I was managing.

Prabhupāda: So you were also taking one thousand?

Conversation with the GBC -- March 27, 1975, Mayapur:

Madhudviṣa: The four regulative principles should be stated.

Prabhupāda: No, that may not be. We know, everyone.

Madhudviṣa: We know it, but does someone else know it?

Prabhupāda: Is it necessary to mention?

Rūpānuga: It's a legal document also.

Bhagavān: Yeah, it should be mentioned.

Prabhupāda: Mentioned? Mention.

Rūpānuga: If it was in parentheses, it would be better for a legal document.

Jayatīrtha: That's not a legal document.

Rūpānuga: It's a legal document. This is a legal document.

Atreya Ṛṣi: "And chanting sixteen rounds very seriously."

Madhudviṣa: Daily.

Atreya Ṛṣi: "Daily."

Madhudviṣa: At least.

Brahmānanda: And free from the offenses.

Haṁsadūta: We have to take some...

Jayatīrtha: Who's chanting free from the offenses?

Prabhupāda: No, no, don't...

Conversation with the GBC -- March 27, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that?

Haṁsadūta: Under, under his direction. Any monies or properties under his direction.

Atreya Ṛṣi: That would be a separate oath. That would be a separate thing, Prabhupāda.

Haṁsadūta: Maybe that should just be left out because if we're going to have some legal document like an umbrella, then that will take care of all those things.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Well, that should be in the pledge, in the agenda.

Prabhupāda: No, no, GBC... Does GBC members deal with money?

Haṁsadūta: No, he does not personally. He doesn't have anything personal.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I mean...

Brahmānanda: But he puts his signature.

Atreya Ṛṣi: No, no. As GBC, we do not deal with money. In other words, if you're dealing with money, it's the temple president.

Prabhupāda: The GB...

Atreya Ṛṣi: Not as...

Prabhupāda: The GBC should see that it is being done properly. Why he should...?

Interview with a German Girl and Assorted Devotees -- March 30, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Guest (2): Except devotees, which after contacting, I haven't seen any (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, the whole world is going on. Married life means legalized prostitution. That is their philosophy. So therefore they are, in the Western world, they do not like to marry. And this is also prostitution; that is also prostitution. So let us go on with our illegal prostitution. Why legal prostitution? This is the philosophy. And that is the Freud philosophy. Is it not?

Haṁsadūta: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Guest (2): Even Indians, the same. I...

Prabhupāda: The Indians, European, doesn't matter. The whole human society is like that.

Haṁsadūta: His idea is why should we make this sex life so cumbersome by marriage?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Avoid it.

Haṁsadūta: It's a natural thing just to have sex.

Guest (2): You are following your principles, the four principles...

Prabhupāda: Avoid it. They are regularly advertising. I have seen in Dallas, "topless, bottomless," like that.

Morning Walk -- April 3, 1975, Mayapur:

Nalinī-kānta: But it is all managed nicely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, śūdras. When a śūdra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Nalinī-kānta: So intoxication, illicit sex, we will make that illegal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is illegal, but because they are rogues and rascals, they are doing all these illegal things. And because it is democracy, when the majority are acting illegally, it becomes legal. This is democracy. They cannot avoid it. They want to do the same thing by voting "There is no God." So there is no God. Bas. Finish. (end)

Room Conversation -- April 4, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: There is no danger internationally. Suppose... Just like the Buddhists. They have got their all pilgrimages in India. Because Lord Buddha is Indian. He spread Buddhism all over the world. So all the Buddhist relics and pilgrimages are in India. Gaya Pradesh and other, Benares... So India government allow them free, freedom to come here as pilgrimage. So you are now Vaiṣṇava. Why they should not allow you to come to your pilgrimage in India, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthplace? You have adopted Lord Caitanya, Lord Kṛṣṇa's birthplace. Legally, they cannot. They should, rather, make arrangement. But, from political point of view, they're thinking that "These Americans have taken to this religious garb. Actually they are intending something political." That is the general impression. C.I.A. What can be done? Therefore I was stressing this point that you Americans, if you make your country strong, Kṛṣṇa conscious, that will be good for the whole world. Actually you are doing that, but they are misunderstanding, in a different way. They cannot believe that an Indian guru can control so many American young boys on religious prin... Because nobody could do that. Just like all other, Mahesha Yogi and... He, they might have some American followers, but they are not coming here, taking so active part.

Morning Walk -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: How degraded the human society is becoming. And the children, they are discussing.

Amogha: It seems that step by step, in the law courts and the judges, everyone is step by step accepting more and more degradation, and makind it legal, everything.

Jayadharma: Even when a man commits first-degree murder he only gets ten years' jail. There are cases of people committing cold-blooded murder and only getting ten years' jail. And then after that, getting out again and doing the same thing.

Paramahaṁsa: They think that "This poor man was psychologically disturbed and killed someone." So they give him ten years in jail, then they say, "Now he is rehabilitated, he has been very nice, and in the prison he was acting very nicely, so we want him to be happy. So we'll let him out on parole as long as he's good." Then they let him out.

Amogha: That's why we take your books to the prisons. Sometimes we have a contest to see who can distribute the most books in three days. When they were deciding who would go with Madhudviṣa Swami to India, they had a contest to see who could distribute the most books and get the most laxmī at the same time. So they would collect much laxmī, then they would go out and give away books to the prisons and jails and hospitals. Cases of books. They put them in the libraries too. They agreed; otherwise they didn't get. They would ask them if they would use it, and they said yes. So in three days they distributed very, very many books.

Prabhupāda: Free?

Amogha: Yes.

Morning Walk -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: It is not meant for mass people. Only selected fortunate. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "If I could make one person to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, then my mission would be successful." It is not for mass person. Only the fortunate they can do. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by introducing saṅkīrtana, even the mass can take part. When there is saṅkīrtana, everyone joins. And by joining in that way, they will become purified.

Amogha: In Sydney, the city council once tried to stop us, legally, from chanting in the streets. First they arrested us two years ago, but then they spent many dollars of tax money to prepare a case for the court, and they didn't even tell us. They had the court session, and the judge ruled that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting in the streets is good. It adds color to the city and is not illegal. Why you are saying this is illegal? This is their right. And it makes the city more colorful."

Prabhupāda: Nice judge. God gave him sense.

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: There is no law; it is all lusty desire. All law or no law, these are all nonsense. The śāstra has... It is lusty desire, that's all. Everyone wants to fulfill a lusty desires. So unless one is not in the modes of goodness or transcendental, everyone will like. That is the material world, rajas-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvaḥ kāma-lobhadayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). It is all discussed in the śāstra. Just like I am hungry man. There is foodstuff. I want to eat it. So if I take by force, that is illegal, and if I pay for it, then it is legal. But I am the hungry man, I want it. This is going on. Everyone is lusty. Therefore they say "legalized prostitution." They want it. So marriage is something legalized, that's all. The passion and the desire is the same, either married or not married. So this Vedic law says, "Better married. Then you will be controlled." Married life... So he will not be so lusty as without married life. So the gṛhastha life is a concession-same lusty desire under rules and regulation. That's all. That is our higher... (?) Without married life he will commit rapes in so many ways, so better let him be satisfied with one, both the man and woman, and make progress in spiritual life. That is concession. Everyone in this material world has come with these lusty desires and greediness. Even demigods like Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā... The Lord Brahmā became lusty after his daughter. And Lord Śiva became so mad after Mohinī-murti. So what to speak of us insignificant creatures. So lusty desire is there. That is material world. Unless one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, this lusty desire cannot be checked. It is not possible.

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā it says that happiness in the mode of goodness is in the beginning is like poison but at the end it is like nectar. Where does the poison end and where does the sweetness begin?

Prabhupāda: Sweetness? That is false sweetness. Just like sexual intercourse. This is sweet, but aftereffect is very poisonous. Either illicit or legal, the aftereffect is very... You have to take care of the children, the child is diseased, go to the doctor and this, that, so many, maintenance... And illicit—then this charge of rape case and so many other things. So both of them, in the beginning it is very happy, but at the end it is very distressing. That is material happiness. Everyone knows it, that it is distasteful. But still, he does that. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanāḥ bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Therefore this kṛpanāḥ... Kṛpanāḥ means miser or foolish person.

Devotee (1): (break) ...till they give up their lusty desires.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required because unless you give up your lusty desires, you will have to remain in this material world, and to remain in the material means suffering. If you actually do not want suffering, then you have to practice all these things so that you can go to the spiritual world. That is the aim of life. And for going to the spiritual world, you have to be completely, cent percent free from all material desires. And so long you will have material desires, you have to accept one material body. Nature is so kind, or the law of nature is so perfect. As long as you will have a little pinch of material desire, then you will have to accept. That's all. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad... And that material life means you may become a grass or you may become a demigod like Brahmā. That will depend on your desire. But you will have to accept. (end)

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: That he is God.

Amogha: There was an article in the paper yesterday from India that says that the Indian court has banned Guru Maharaj-ji from leaving India. They have issued an order that he must stay until the court has finished because his brother is suing. Because his brother published a photo showing Guru Maharaj-ji embracing and kissing an American girl in the paper. So the Guru Maharaj-ji published a picture of his brother doing the same thing. But they say it was a fake photo, so the court is holding him in India, and they're having a legal battle, suing each other to see who is God.

Prabhupāda: Farce.

Paramahaṁsa: It seems like these demons who say that they are God, eventually they will end up destroying each other.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now they are fools, rascal, bluffing, but even the scientists, they are also bluffing. Now Russia and America combined together, going? Just see where they are going.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Make it suitable. Hm. All right.

Madhudviṣa: They don't want to go.

Prabhupāda: All right. (laughter) (break)

Madhudviṣa: ...one of our very dear friends, Raymond Lopez. He is a barrister and a visitor who has helped us out tremendously with some of the legal dealings that we've had here in Melbourne. And also this is Mr. Wally Strobes(?), he has also helped us out and given us good guidance. And this is Bob Bourne(?), he is a photographer who has... He has taken that nice picture of the Deities that I have brought to Māyāpur festival.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Madhudviṣa: Very nice. So he has taken many photographs for us. And we are particularly indebted to Wally and Raymond for giving us a lot of good guidance in our dealings with the police. And one time we had one incident about three years ago, when some of the boys were a little enthusiastic about Ratha-yātrā festival, and they went out and they picked many flowers illegally. So they were caught.

Prabhupāda: Illegally? Where? In the park?

Madhudviṣa: No. In one flower-growing nursery.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say blind. He does not know what is good. real goodness is to understand God. That is real goodness.

Guest 1: But there are certain things that you don't..., that are good, that you can accept as being good just by themselves. Now if you see an old lady who gets run over by a car, you go and help her. Now there are certain things that are good by themselves, I think, and that people will react and do the good thing even though they mightn't have any concept of God.

Prabhupāda: No. Unless you have got the real platform how you can do good? Just like our Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was obliged to you. You have done some good in legal affairs. But unless you are a lawyer, legal man, how can you do it? You have a mind to do good, but if you are not a lawyer, how could you do?

Guest 2: But there would be a lot of lawyers to do...

Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing. I am talking of yourself. If one does not know what is good, then how he will do good? The first business is that he must know what is good. Then he can do something good. Otherwise what is the use of jumping like monkey? He must know. Because you are a lawyer you know how to deal with law, you can do good. But a layman who is not a lawyer, how he can do good? So therefore, anyone who is posing himself as leader to do good to the society, he must know first of all what is good.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I am saying that if you are not a lawyer, if you have no study of the law, how can you do good?

Guest 2: Well, that's what I was putting. I was hoping to lead you from there to the other situation of no studying or specific training.

Madhudviṣa: No. Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that you could help us legally because you knew the law. If you weren't a lawyer, then you couldn't have helped us legally. Right?

Guest 2: I see, I see what you mean, yes.

Madhudviṣa: So therefore, now taking that same example, you can't do good for someone unless you know what good is. You can't...

Guest 2: I was misunderstanding what he was saying.

Madhudviṣa: You can't help us legally unless you know the law yourself. You can't... I mean, just any Joe can't walk into the court and start speaking. The judge will say, "Go away." But because you're a lawyer you can help us.

Guest 1: But the question Raymond asked before was if somebody helped an old lady across the street and he was, say, an atheist, would it be doing a good action?

Madhudviṣa: Well, it depends. It depends on what the lady was doing.

Guest 1: It depends if he pushed her in front of a car.

Madhudviṣa: That lady may have been...

Guest 1: If she wanted to cross the road?

Madhudviṣa: No, no. That lady may have been walking home with a cartload, with booze, to kill herself. So when she got knocked over and all her liquor fell out on the ground and you didn't help her up with it, then maybe it was good that you left her there.

Guest 1: No, I think that particular situation where he helped the lady across the road...

Prabhupāda: No, particular situation is different. But generally if we do not know what is the ultimate goal, then we misguide. That is the point. So either in society or politics or economics or religion, philosophy, culture—everyone is engaged in some department. But if that leader does not know what is the ultimate goal of life, how he will lead? That is given direction in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in two verses. One verse is: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse. It is in the First Canto. Who can...? Where is? First of all find out this verse.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: The advancement of knowledge in any department, that is very good. But what is the aim? The aim is to glorify the Supreme Lord. Just like you are lawyer. You gave us help in some difficulty time. Why? Because you wanted to continue glorification of the Lord, that "These men are doing nice. Why they should be harassed?" So that means you helped glorification of the Lord. So that's your success as a lawyer. So anyone who helps this movement, that "They are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. They should be helped in all respect," that is the perfection. Everything is required, but it should be culminated in the matter of glorifying the Supreme. Then it is perfect. In another place... Find out this verse,

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
(SB 1.2.13)

Just like you have helped this institution in a difficult position. That means you have pleased Kṛṣṇa. That is your success. My devotees are in difficulty.

They wanted some legal help. You, as a lawyer, helped them, so you have pleased Kṛṣṇa, God. That is the aim of life. Whether by my work in different spheres, as a lawyer, as a businessman, or as a scholar, as a philosopher, as a scientist, as an economist... There are so many demands. It doesn't matter. But you should see whether you are successful. And what is the standard of success? The standard of success is whether you have pleased God. You read this.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That is religion. That should be developed, that "Whether by my profession, by my business, by my talent, by my capacities..." There are different categories. "Whether I have pleased God?" Then it is successful. If you have pleased God by your legal profession—you are in a different dress—it doesn't matter. You are as good as they are whole time only serving God. Because their business is also to please God. Similarly, if you have pleased God, then even by practicing your law, you are as good as the saintly person. That should be the aim, "Whether I have pleased God with my professional duty or occupational duty?" That is the standard. Let people take up this. We don't say that "You change your position. You become a sannyāsī or you give up your profession and become bald-headed." No, we don't say that. (laughs) We are by nature. (laughter) So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you remain in your position, but see whether by your discharge of duties you have pleased God.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: No, not general people.

Guest 3: It's the indirect way because God wants people to be happy. Now, if you can help people, if you can help people as people, surely that means that you must be pleasing God.

Prabhupāda: No, first of all... Suppose you are a lawyer, and some man has committed murder, and he wants your help. And suppose by your legal tricks you save him. So that will not please God. (laughter)

Guest 3: You've got a different consideration here.

Guest 2: You've got a lot of places and names for that.

Guest 3: We've got a different consideration here, you see, because the law that we have is very different from God's law. And I think that... (break)

Prabhupāda: You must accept God's law, not the people's law.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Similarly, whenever we come in a big assembly, we respect each one, gentlemen. There is no harm.

Yogi Bhajan: No, no, but people do not understand why we are like this, why they wear like this. They don't get a chance to explain. At Interreligious Council, I am a member. They never knew. They think we are the most weird people from the Mars perhaps. They don't understand a bit. And now our legal services are helping them, and all sorts of things have happened, and they are trying to understand. And when the last president left the office, he said, in his words of departure, he said, "I am only limited by the Christ. I never understood anything else. But I do feel from that limit that God is unlimited and it is in everybody." Asking a fanatic Christian to make that statement to the general assembly, it took us about two years.

Prabhupāda: Hm. You find so many fanatics. How you will unite them?

Yogi Bhajan: Gradually, one by one, one by one, they will understand. Love is the winning point. That's why they don't understand. When they find love from you, they will find love from me, they will love from people, they will love from everybody else. You know, you can take a mango stick and beat somebody, but you can take mango off it and eat. Effort has to be made somehow. And now...

Prabhupāda: Effort is being made, but the platform, the world where you are staying, that effort is very difficult to fulfill.

Morning Walk -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: This is nudie beach?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The nude beach.

Revatīnandana: It used to be.

Bahulāśva: ...on one side

Revatīnandana: At one time they made it legal to be nude here, and then later on, they repealed the law again.

Jayatīrtha: Venice? It is still nude, Venice Beach.

Revatīnandana: Is it still? Really.

Jayatīrtha: You can either come wearing clothes or not wearing clothes to this beach.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lucky we come early.

Sudāmā: Just like the monkeys.

Revatīnandana: Oh, it was in Laguna that they repealed it.

Prabhupāda: But why, then, the lavatory they have made distinction for woman and for men?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now in the colleges there's no more distinction.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you give life to the flesh and blood?

Dharmādhyakṣa: That is a problem.

Prabhupāda: Then it is foolishness.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh, definitely.

Bahulāśva: In California they have passed a law that homosexuality is legal. So the psychologists say that they see the dogs and the hogs and monkeys having homosex relationships, so on that grounds, they say, it should be legal.

Prabhupāda: They have got homosex? Dogs, hogs, I don't think.

Bahulāśva: Yeah, dogs, they say. We were preaching in this one convention that the dogs are also fighting. So therefore fighting and murder should be legal too because the dogs do that also.

Brahmānanda: Their argument was because the dogs have homosex, therefore the man should have...?

Bahulāśva: Should have homosex.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes, if an animal does it, then a human being should have the same right to do it also.

Jayatīrtha: Then they can pass stool in the street also?

Prabhupāda: Then what is the difference between man and animal? They do not find any difference?

Bahulāśva: No.

Room Conversation With Yogi Bhajan and Jain Muni -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Yogi Bhajan: No, no, he is expert. They have figured it out. Because we are very conspicuous in this some way. You get away with things, you know, you are all right. But with us it is not "That's the man. Get him." (?)

Devotee: We have legal battles wherever we go.

Yogi Bhajan: We have a battle on every step. We wear a kapon (Sikh knife), we have a battle on every step. They say, "It is a knife. You can't carry it." We fight every few steps. Social dangers, we have more social aggressive dangers than you. But if you just channel it on a patterned style, you know, pattern thirteen. Now what we fight is this fight is pattern thirteen, fight it. We go, we go through. (Hindi) (Conversation continues)

Devotee: Is Nanda Kumāra ready?

Devotee: Nanda Kumāra is... Do you want to take here or...?

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (2): In that room. (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: World Fellowship...

Guest (2): World Fellowship of Religion. (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You ready?

Devotee: Just preparing. (Hindi)

Guest (2): Good is two words, two o's. You have to be God first then to be good to anybody. (Hindi) Charity begins from home. (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. (Hindi) (end)

Morning Walk -- July 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Court cases?

Yadubara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He is very expert, expert in dealing with legal cases. So what they will speak? What they have got? Better not to talk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. During that meeting, that Muni, he was interested in spiritual conversation. But Yogi Bhajan, he did not take part at all in that part.

Prabhupāda: No, no, he is after woman. That's all.

Yadubara: Afterwards he said his ego was very large. He said he had a big ego.

Prabhupāda: Eagle? Eagle bird.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, ego, ego.

Prabhupāda: Ego, oh.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: If you don't call wife, you can have. The law allows you to keep boyfriend, girlfriend. Then the... Instead of calling "husband," call "friend." That's all. But, er, it is risky and the man must be responsible to keep... To keep more than one wife by trained-up man is not disallowed.

Brahmānanda : But I think they thought that he could get it legally established, at least in the state of California.

Prabhupāda: Well then go and marry there. If the state of California allows that, then they all can go to California.

Nityānanda: The general public objects to that... It's very...

Prabhupāda: Public we don't care. We... What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub... What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don't give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that's all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Mūḍhas, they have been described, mūḍhas. You know the meaning of mūḍha?

Devotee (1): Ass.

Morning Walk -- August 12, 1975, Paris:

Prabhupāda: People also thought, "Yes." He never said, "Nixon needs money." (laughter) This is cheating. He needs some money; he said, "America needs Nixon." And the rascals were befooled. (break) All these politicians do like that. What is their responsibility?

Brahmānanda: Now Nixon is in debt. He is now in debt.

Prabhupāda: Debt? Why?

Brahmānanda: For his legal fees. He owes 300,000 dollars. So one rabbi...

Prabhupāda: So he cannot give 300,000 dollars?

Brahmānanda: No, he has no money. He had to pay taxes.

Prabhupāda: So we are paying 300,000. So we are better than him. (break) ...rabbi is a Jew?

Brahmānanda: Yes. So this rabbi, he is a personal friend. He has taken the responsibility for raising the money. Actually the fees were 500,000. He has already raised 200,000. 300,000 to go.

Prabhupāda: And nobody is excusing the fee, the lawyers?

Brahmānanda: No. But now he is writing his book.

Prabhupāda: Yes, another fallacy.

Room Conversation -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

Brahmānanda: At the present moment, I was reading, there is one girl in America, New Jersey, teenage girl. And for some unknown reason she went to sleep one night, and in the morning she did not wake up. So they then rushed her to the hospital, and they have an artificial machine that is keeping her alive, and this has been going on for one month. All of her bodily functions are becoming more and more diminished, but still, by this machine, she is alive. Now this has gone on for one month. So now they don't know what to do with her. Should they keep her like this, just running on the machine, or should they stop the machine and then she will die? This is a big legal problem. They don't know what... If they stop the machine, they'll be accused of manslaughter.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some Catholic priest said that better to let her die, because this is God's way.

Prabhupāda: Then he has to accept the God's way and give up the machine.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But in a situation like that, isn't it more valuable to preserve human life because there's the chance...

Prabhupāda: What is the use?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a chance that somehow or another, they might be...

Prabhupāda: Why should you take the chance? You are perplexed with overpopulation. And why you want to stay? One side, you are perplexed with overpopulation. Let him die.

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are increasing sex life, and actually the advancement of knowledge should be decreasing sex life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know what is knowledge. The knowledge means sex life. That is their knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means how to enjoy sex life, how to take shelter of abortion, child-killing, and then contraceptive method—whole thing on the basis of sex life. That's all. They do not know except these things. They know there is botheration after sex life, but they cannot give it up. Therefore all these arrangements: take contraceptive, kill child, and what... That means the whole thing is based on sex life. That's all. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Is that pleasure? They think it is pleasure to unite the urinals. (laughter) And this is pleasure, a standard of pleasure most third class, fourth class. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ tuccham: very abominable. Tuccham, the śāstra says, "most abominable." And they take it pleasure, and they make arrangement for this. When the dog enjoys sex life... Therefore they are allowed to do it on the street. People can see it. Is that very nice scene? The same thing is done by the human being, and they are taking: "This is all, everything." This is basic principle of their happiness. That's all. Mohinī, mohinī. This is captivation. And nature has made the woman's face so attractive, beautiful, their breast, their hips, attractive, their sound, talking, singing, all very attractive, walking, and now they are dressing naked. They are showing simply the vagina, all other parts of the body clothed. This is going on. Whole thing is based on sex life, and that is tuccham, most abominable. Prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. It will take three hundred times births to understand that this sex life is abominable. Therefore it is bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Not that immediately, simply by hearing our Bhagavad-gita lecture, they will give it up. It will take many, many births to understand. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. In the Vedic system, sex life is allowed only for begetting children. Therefore they are... Restriction. Allowed, but with great restriction under religious rules and regulation and so many things, garbhādāna. Then the first principle is, even it is taken for begetting child, it is not secret.

Garbhādāna-saṁskāra. There should be a function, all the brāhmaṇas and relatives should come, and there will be ceremony, and everyone will know that "This man is going to now sex, have sex for begetting children." This is ceremony, not secretly like cats and dogs. Cats and dogs also, they do not do secretly. A human being do it secretly and do not want the botheration. Therefore their scientific advancement means how to kill the child, how to make abortion, how to take contraceptive pills, how to distribute them, how allow the children, "Yes, you go on, but take these pills so that you may not be bothered." Yes. Why not stop it, botheration? That you cannot, because animals. Because animal civilization, they cannot do it. Kaṇḍutive manivasi viṣaheta dhīraḥ. Why don't you teach them to become dhīraḥ, sober—"Let me tolerate this itching sensation"—brahmacārī? That teaching is not good. You do it repeatedly, suffer, and suffer consequences. And to stop it they suffer in so many ways, suffering, suffering. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Sex life, illicit or legal, the after-effect is suffering. Even it is not illicit—it is legal—then to take care of the wife or the children, for their education, for their upliftment and so on, so on, so on—suffering. And if it is illicit, then these sufferings: you commit sinful activities, kill the child, contraceptive, with the abortion, go to the doctor, pay, and so on, so on. So where is no suffering? Either legal or illicit, you have to suffer. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. These rascals, once they have done, "That's all right. You have got one child. Just take of." "No, again, again."

Room Conversation -- October 29, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: How Indian people helped them?

Brahmānanda: They would give their... These groups of guerillas, the Indians would supply them and use their facilities and their farm houses. And then also, legally, the Indians were able to give, from their experience in India. They were able to make some government, some kind of a freedom government system. They agitated to get representation in the Parliament, and they became... When independence came there were many Indians as M.P.'s here. And even when Kenyatta was put on trial by the British, his chief lawyer was a Britisher, but the second lawyer was an Indian. Also the union movement was... One Indian, he helped organize the...

Indian: I was talking with a judge. He is a Sikh gentleman here. So he told me that "In the freedom we all helped, and I was not a judge at that time. I was ordinary advocate. So I play a nice role to get them freedom, so they appointed me a judge after that." Now he is judge since last fifteen years.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Morning Walk -- November 30, 1975, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: And you cannot hold gold also. That is illegal. Somehow or other, even if you secure gold, you cannot keep it.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's that restriction in India, I think.

Ambarīṣa: Now in the United States you can buy gold. They made it legal.

Harikeśa: But limited quantity.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: They do not believe in the transmigration of the soul and they are "Awake." Just see these rascals. They have no preliminary knowledge even, and they are writing books, Awake.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have a very big press in New York, Jehovah Witness, Brooklyn Bridge.

Harikeśa: They say the world is going to end next year.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: So all devotees are cultured?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Theirs is really culture. Prahlāda Mahārāja says, tam manye' dhitam uttamam, śravanaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu-smaraṇam pāda-sevanam arcanam. Tam manye' dhityam uttamam, he is first-class educated. This is recommendation by Prahlāda Mahārāja. And Kṛṣṇa says, "If one is not God-conscious: duṣkṛtino, mūḍhā, narādhamā, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā." Where is their qualification? Duṣkṛtina, mūḍha. Where is culture? Suppose you steal by tricks, by, I mean to say, by legal tricks, does it mean it is culture? But that is going on.

Dr. Patel: That means, sir, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ, yat kiñcid jagatyāṁ jagat, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). That should be the background of all the governments.

Prabhupāda: That is bhagavad-bhakti... (end)

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 6, 1976, Nellore:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Distributed?

Prabhupāda: These lands are being distributed?

Indian man: Distributed to the poor people. All these lands.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Legally they are being distributed?

Indian man: Yes, legally, by government.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...there any question last night? No.

Acyutānanda: No, nobody put last night. (break) ...majority is English-speaking audience, then questions and answers flow smoothly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...a latrine arranged yesterday, but...

Acyutānanda: (break) ...continuing for very long. What is the problem there?

Indian man: (break) ...is there are social act which this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has taken?

Prabhupāda: What is the best social activity? Our is the best...

Indian man: Serving the poor and the natives...

Prabhupāda: Everyone is poor. Who is rich? First of all find out. Who is rich?

Indian man: Rich in the sense, luxurious living...

Prabhupāda: He is not living very luxuriously, that he has no disease, he does not become old. Does not become?

Indian man: No.

Morning Walk -- January 8, 1976, Nellore:

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are the court.

Prabhupāda: They are the court means?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean to say, the same persons are the court. They're all one clique.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The court has legalized abortion, for example, now.

Harikeśa: In India?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. In America. In India also the government's encouraging.

Acyutānanda: In India it's encouraged. They get a reward.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The government pays.

Yaśodānandana: They give a radio.

Acyutānanda: They'll give you a prize, and the person who brings someone, he will get twenty-five rupees. And the doctor, after a month he gets a bonus.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now the government is thinking of having a policy by which if a person has more than two children he will not be promoted, he will not get raises—to discourage.

Acyutānanda: The Mohammedan community has refused, and Christian. So they feel...

Prabhupāda: So why not Hindus?

Acyutānanda: Hindus are doing. So they feel in a few generations the Mohammedan, Christian community will outnumber the Hindu.

Morning Walk -- February 3, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: And that's all. So you can do your sense gratification process, yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi tuccham, what is condemned by Prahlāda Mahārāja, that "This kind of happiness is most abominable and insignificant." Tuccham. Tuccham means very insignificant. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. It is just like itching between the two hand, and after-result is misery. That's all. Iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). They know it, that after this enjoyment of itching sensation there will be so much trouble. But neha tṛpyanti: they are not satisfied. Again and again. Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Begetting one child... Just see. It is going on. (children in background) No shame. That is animal. No shame. In Western countries they are learning... I have seen. In Los Angeles beach they are having sex open. Just like these birds or beasts. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. They are trying to make birth control. Why? Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. That illicit or legal sex, the after-result is very miserable.

Morning Walk -- February 9, 1976, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dāya.

Prabhupāda: Dāya. Dāya means legally inheritance. That is called dāya. Just like your father's money you get automatically. So similarly, kanyā-dāya means to get the girl married is a dāya. You cannot refuse it. It is incumbent, you must do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many of our, the girls in our society, they have reached that age, but they are not getting married.

Prabhupāda: No, your society is different. Now it is here also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean in ISKCON, in our society.

Prabhupāda: ISKCON is not going to be social reformer, but as far as possible, we can help. Our main business is how to make everyone Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our business. We cannot take up, but if possible, we can take up all the system of varṇāśrama.

Room Conversation With Radha-Damodara Sankirtana Party -- March 16, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The men who are here now in this room, some of them have been put in jails.... (aside:) Watch out for that thing. Put in jails and beaten just for distributing these books.

Prabhupāda: So there is no legal action?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in the courts.

Tripurāri: Some places the police have a conspiracy against our devotees.

Prabhupāda: What is our fault?

Tripurāri: We have no fault except that we are successful. We are so successful, and they are envious.

Prabhupāda: That they don't want.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The people want, but the authorities don't want.

Prabhupāda: You have found out?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, I.... The index is not there, Prabhupāda.

Morning Walk -- April 9, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam.

Prabhupāda: That is recommended everywhere. Illicit or legal.... Mahāprabhu has said, asat eka strī-saṅgī: "Anyone who is attached to woman, he is asat." Bas. This is the whole process, how to become detached from the attraction of woman, dhīra. (break) Give up the connection with woman is recommended. So in our society it will be a good test. We are mixed up with men and women. If you in spite of this allurement, if you do not become attracted by woman, then you should know you are paramahaṁsa. Yes. You are worshipable. And this Bhāgavata-dharma is meant for the paramahaṁsas. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2). It is especially. Dharmaḥ projjhita. The other different types of regulated system, to become very religious man or to become very expert money-hunter or accumulation of money, dharma, artha, and enjoying sense enjoyment—the whole world is appreciating these men, who is a religious man, who is very much able to satisfy his senses, dozens of cars and three dozen women, naked dance. They are taking this. Dharma artha kāma. And somebody is trying mokṣa, being baffled or dissatisfied: "These things will not.... I shall become one with." So dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90). So Bhāgavata says, "These are all kicked out." Paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2). For the paramahaṁsas. So anyone who is freed from all these allurement, he is paramahaṁsa. And this paramahaṁsa-saṁhitā, it is called, Bhāgavata.... Paramahaṁsa-saṁhitā. Bhāṣyaṁ brahma-sūtrāṇām **.

Morning Walk -- June 3, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's prestigious, and it also allows us to have a lot of information available. Just like, as we're finding out, for example, Rāmeśvara Mahārāja is working with our lawyer here, and we find that we have the legal right to distribute in airports. Legally, we have the right. Similarly, there are legal rights for our saṅkīrtana movement in various countries in the world, and through this group we would get access to all information on what the legal position is and other things of this kind.

Prabhupāda: Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Yes, that's nice.

Rāmeśvara: (Maharishi Mahesh) Yogi, he tried to file a trademark on the words "Transcendental Meditation" with the United States government. So we protested that actually he cannot claim that he is teaching transcendental meditation, what to speak of prohibiting anyone else from using those words. So they accepted our claim and kicked out his application.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Garden Conversation -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Rāmeśvara: He's a good friend of ours, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He helps us in many legal affairs.

Prabhupāda: So if he wants to come forward. (break) Go on reading.

Hṛdayānanda: "When the mind is in the mode of goodness, his activities are good; when the mind is in the mode of passion, his activities are troublesome; and when the mind is in the mode of ignorance, he travels in the lower species of life. It is clear, however, in this verse, that the conditioned soul is covered by..."

Prabhupāda: Ignorance means completely lost of all independence. That is ignorance. Complete loss of, even little intelligence, all lost. In the modes of passion, there is little independence, and in the modes of goodness, he has got full independence whether to remain in the struggle for existence or go back to home, back to Godhead. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ. That is real knowledge platform.

Room Conversation -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Oh, he has got.

Hari-śauri: He's got one. He's getting one for Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja.

Devotee: Prabhupāda is giving him one of his personal shirts.

Jagadīśa: A lawyer, he's come to see your darśana in the garden for the last two nights. He's been giving us a lot of assistance in our legal needs. He seems to be very inquisitive about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's downstairs now. I wonder if he could come up.

Prabhupāda: He has some inquiries?

Jagadīśa: Well, he seems to be eating up the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's very eager to hear.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Jagadīśa: He's downstairs right now.

Rāmeśvara: He's charging us lower rates, doing, working as hard as he can for us at practically no profit to himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes, something must be given.

Morning Walk -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Māyā's harassing, that means you are not in devotional service. It is not concoction; it is fact.

Devotee (1): (indistinct) We're having a lot of trouble distributing books in the airports now.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the difficulty?

Devotee (1): It just seems legal problems. People don't like us there.

Mādhavānanda: People are opposing more. As our movement grows more and more, people want to check.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): ...trying to get it open in the terminals, and there's a possibility of maybe getting forty devotees inside the airport to distribute your books.

Prabhupāda: So, that is favorable. (break)

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: ...so powerful, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that all over the country young men are running away from home. We have one fifteen-year-old boy, he left everything after getting a book in a parking lot. Another boy is a sculptor, an artist. He's also runaway, seventeen years old. Just like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, once he was attracted by Lord Caitanya's movement, nothing could keep him at home. So all the young men of America, as they read your books, will come and join us.

Prabhupāda: Our books are prescribed as textbook in Hamburg University.

Prabhupada Inspects New BTG -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: What is this article? Ah. "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness-The Spirit of '76." "Curing the Crimes of a Lifetime." Vibhavatī. "Curing the Crimes"—read it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (reads) "Adapted from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, translation and commentary by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda." In the middle there is a picture of Arjuna piercing the target, and Draupadī. "With the recent disgrace of an American president still fresh in our minds, it is interesting to read of a similar case in ancient times. Five thousand years ago a blind king named Dhṛtarāṣṭra dishonored his high post and caused the death of millions. This story is of special importance even today, because he found an antidote to the crimes of a lifetime and in his old age became self-realized. King Dhṛtarāṣṭra was the acting monarch of Hastināpura, the capital of the Vedic kingdom of Bhārata, which five thousand years ago, according to the Vedic literature, spread over most of the planet. Hastināpura was on the banks of the Yamunā River at the present-day site..., at the site of present day Delhi. As its name indicates-hasti means elephant—it was a city full of opulently decorated elephants. Noble men rode elaborate chariots past marble palaces inlaid with glittering jewels. The sweet smell of incense drifted out of lattice windows. Trees bearing fruits and flowers lined the wide streets, which were sprinkled with scented water. There was no hint of poverty or distress. Hastināpura was the crown jewel of the abundant Vedic civilization. From the beginning, Dhṛtarāṣṭra's position as king was never legal, for he was blind, and Vedic law ruled that a blind man cannot be king. Thus the throne went to his younger brother Pāṇḍu. But when Pāṇḍu died in his young manhood, Dhṛtarāṣṭra began ruling on behalf of Pāṇḍu's five sons, who were still children. In an age of great and honorable kings, Dhṛtarāṣṭra was an exception. Swayed by his eldest son Duryodhana's ruthless lust for power, Dhṛtarāṣṭra began to abuse the guardianship of the Pāṇḍavas by closing his already blind eyes to the planned and purposeful efforts of Duryodhana to destroy the boys. As the descendant of a great royal dynasty, Dhṛtarāṣṭra had the lineage and rearing of a proper monarch, but it seemed that he was as blind spiritually as he was physically. Although he admired and even loved the five fatherless princes, he began to contemplate taking away their kingdom, and even their lives."

Prabhupāda: At seven o'clock we shall go there?

Kīrtanānanda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Those who are meat-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it."

Kīrtanānanda: That would be illegal.

Prabhupāda: Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whim.

Kīrtanānanda: But that will get us in trouble.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, they can give us, they are in power, they can do that, but legally...

Kīrtanānanda: Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow.

Prabhupāda: They take it. Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh, let them eat. We are not going to charge for the... You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this.

Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the animals, wild animals eat the dead cow.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Kīrtanānanda: They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried.

Prabhupāda: Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it.

Garden Conversation -- June 28, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Formerly in the currency, when you go to take some exchange, it was the etiquette of the teller to ask you, "What you want, silver money, gold money or paper money?" It was their duty. If you say "I want gold money," they will pay in gold money. Not only it is written in the paper, "I promise to pay," but the promise was kept. If he wants, "Give me payment in gold," they will pay. And now, to keep gold, hoarding gold, is illegal. So you cannot ask. This is going on, legalized cheating. You have to accept this paper money. That's all. Don't ask for gold. And there is no honesty at all. I can take paper money for my convenience sake, but how you can force me to take paper money? That is not honesty. So dishonesty begins from the government. You cannot keep gold. If you have kept gold, there will be searching, and if it is found that you have gold, you'll be punished. In India it is now being done. There is no freedom even at your home, in your private life. Formerly, any common man could keep gold according to his desire. There was no such thing. Sometimes he would hide it even within the ground, because there was no bank. At least in India this was the practice. If you have got some gold, you keep it somewhere confidential within the ground so that it may not be stolen. So everyone should have right to keep his money as he likes.

Morning Walk -- July 4, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Oh, Coleman, yes. Last time in India, he gave me twenty-five thousand rupees. (laughs)

Rūpānuga: He did?! Wow, twenty-five thousand! He still has the original tape of this record.

Prabhupāda: Let him now do. He wanted to pay me something, but he never paid.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I sent Kṛṣṇa-kānti, he made a, recorded this in South Africa and printed it. It's not actually legal, but we did it because we didn't think it would... This is the most wonderful record for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness because you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So pure.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Originally.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People can more appreciate Hare Kṛṣṇa than these bhajanas, because they do not understand.

Prabhupāda: Bhajana, they do... (break) ...Brahmānanda, you...

Rūpānuga: Brahmānanda, yes, he's singing. Satsvarūpa. Hayagrīva was there also, and Jadurāṇī was there. We were playing all kinds of instruments, all kinds of things. We were playing bells and sticks.

Prabhupāda: Kīrtanānanda was playing sitar.

Room Conversation -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore:

Rūpānuga: You gave the example that if sometimes the man becomes bankrupt he goes to court and the judge says, "You must take this money you have left to your creditors and be satisfied," and he can escape in that way. But the one duty that a father has is getting the daughter married; that he cannot escape.

Prabhupāda: No, therefore it is called dāya, dāya-bhāk, legally he is bound. He may not get his son married, but the daughter must be married. This is father's duty.

Rūpānuga: It is sinful, actually considered sinful, if he doesn't do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because without father the daughter cannot be properly married. Daughter or son, everyone, if the father, mother, by their supervision, the boys and girls get married, that is very good. They see how they will be happy. And without father, mother, simply by lusty desires, that selection may be wrong and that becomes actually happened. Therefore there is divorce.

Room Conversation -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore:

Rūpānuga: ISKCON parents, if the girl is fifteen, like you said, fifteen, then the ISKCON parent may give permission, that is legal. Not only that, but our own men, as I have done in Virginia, I have registered as minister in the state, and I can perform marriages. So our own men can register to perform marriages.

Prabhupāda: Another difficulty is the boy and the girl, they also do not stick. That is another difficulty.

Rūpānuga: That is the biggest one.

Vṛṣākapi: Every father, he wants his son to stay brahmacārī and become sannyāsa. So who will be willing to give up their son for marriage at a young age? (pause)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: You were saying the other day, actually the only solution is if everybody chants.

Prabhupāda: That is the only solution.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is a commonsense philosophy, that the earth is there, everything is coming out of earth. As mother is giving birth to so many children, similarly the earth is giving birth to so many children. So the children are there, the mother is there, and where is the father? But these rascals, they say "Without father." Is it possible for the mother to give children without father?

Mr. Boyd: Not legally. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Legally or illegally, there must be some father.

Mr. Boyd: I realize that.

Prabhupāda: Illegally or legally, without connection with the father there is no question of children.

Mr. Boyd: But even this is being done artificially nowadays.

Prabhupāda: But artificially means that you accept the principle. So therefore we say that here is mother, land, and here is children, the plants, trees, birds, beasts, human beings. They are all coming from the earth. So mother is there, and the children are there. Then where is the father? You cannot say, "No, without father it has come." That is not possible. Then you are talking foolish. There must be father. This is conclusion. So how you can deny God? God is accepted in every religion as the supreme father or something like that, great. And God is there. But they say "Automatically coming" and big, big words. How do they explain? How things are coming from the earth, so many plants?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is by chance.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Just see how they are befooling persons. The law is cause and effect. Nothing is chance. There is cause, and there is effect. It is saying the same thing, that "This girl has produced a child by chance." It is not possible. Any sane man knows that she had connection with man, either legally or illegally. It is not chance. So there can... Nothing can happen as chance. That is imperfect knowledge. Wash out. But we know,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
a nādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
(Bs. 5.1)

There is no question of chance. There is cause. So all right, thank you very much. (end)

Morning Walk -- July 9, 1976, Washington D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Inheritance, yes. Legally inheritance. (break) ...we're afraid of suffering. Let there be so many, what is that? Let me do my duty.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: From these sufferings actually we know that this material world is full of misery.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So how to get out this misery that is the point, next step.

Prabhupāda: And those who know (indistinct), he is not hankering after how to get out of the (indistinct). They do not care for (indistinct).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Isn't it in the sense the material concept?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Devotee (2): ...have to cultivate this tolerance, not only a physical pain, but sometimes other pains.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) tṛṇād api sunīcena. Tolerance when they (indistinct), everyone is (indistinct), he doesn't (indistinct). Taror api sahiṣṇunā. You have to learn these things.

Room Conversation -- July 18, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Best thing would have been to keep the Deities for a week there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That would not have been permitted. They only permitted us legally two hours for everything. That's why we were rushing everything. We only had two hours legally for the whole program.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then there is no need.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I heard people say "We've never seen such a festival, never seen such a parade." I heard these comments. One man said... Someone said, "What's going on?" and he said, "Oh, they have so many things going on here." They were very appreciative. And actually we could not put our full energy into it this year because we were so busy preparing the building simultaneously.

Prabhupāda: And above all, the atmosphere, the weather, was very nice.

Room Conversation -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: These are happening. But when you talk of that "You learn how to become brahmacārī," that they will refuse. This is the position. The aftereffect is very, very bad, either you get legally or illegally. Legally, we have to raise the children very nicely. Otherwise, they will, unwanted children, create so much trouble. You have to take care for their proper education, of their clothes.(?) We say, "Never mind, you have got children, give them proper education, make them devotees, make their life successful." We cannot say that "You kill them." That we cannot say. That is not possible. Neither we can pack them in the, what is that box?

Hari-śauri: Lockers.

Room Conversation -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not possible for us. We welcome. But we must be well organized to utilize these poor souls for becoming first-class devotees. That should be done. Otherwise, sex life and the by-product, that is always troublesome, either you take this way or that way, it is troublesome. If it is not troublesome, why they are killing their own children? To avoid trouble. This is psychology. They want to avoid trouble. But our process is, if you want to avoid trouble, then don't marry, remain brahmacārī. If you cannot, then, all right, have legal wife, get children and raise them very nicely, make them Vaiṣṇavas, take the responsibility. So we are organizing this society, we welcome. Some way or other we shall arrange for shelter. But to take care of the children, to educate them, that will depend on their parents. Now our Pradyumna was complaining that in the Gurukula, his child was not educated to count one, two, three, four. So I have told him that "You educate your child. Let the mother educate in English, and you educate him in Sanskrit." Who can take care? So similarly every father, mother should take care that in future they may not be a batch of unwanted children. We can welcome hundreds and thousands of children.

Room Conversation -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Never mind, own or not own. You possess and that's all. You don't own anything. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Do you think it is, you own this?

Hari-śauri: No, I was thinking in terms of ISKCON.

Prabhupāda: This is all Kṛṣṇa's property. So long He likes, we shall remain. That's all. I know that. (laughs) Just like we entered Bhaktivedanta Manor without any arrangement. I know that so long Kṛṣṇa will like, we shall... If Kṛṣṇa says "Go away," we shall go away, what is that? Why so much legal implication? Everywhere, although we have got big, big buildings, I don't think we own it. It is Kṛṣṇa's. So long He likes, we shall remain there, if He doesn't like, we shall go away. What is this? Why you should stress on the proprietorship?

Hari-śauri: No, I was just thinking in terms of the karmīs.

Prabhupāda: They are not proprietor.

Morning Walk at Niavaran Park -- August 8, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: This is family relation. Ṛktha-haraiḥ svajanākhya-dasyubhiḥ. Ṛktha-haraiḥ(?). Their only business is that you earn money with hard labor, and they'll take away. Their business is to take away. And they have got legal right. Dāya, dāya-bhāga. The son has got the right, legal right, to take whatever the father has accumulated. Nobody will say "No, you cannot take." No, he has the right, and so far wife is concerned, her business is to extend your condition, material condition. When one is alone, brahmacārī, he has no condition, he lives freely. But as soon as he's married, so many obligations. Ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittaiḥ (SB 5.5.8), must have a nice house, must have good land, good source of income. And then if you have got house and good source of income, then you call friends to oblige them. Then get children, give them education, put them in nice condition of life, get them married, again grandchildren, and so on, so on. That means these material conditions which have embarrassed me, that business is very nicely done by the wife for increasing my embarrassment. Nowadays nobody takes responsibility of family. That is another thing.

Morning Walk -- August 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Why?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know the reason, but apparently Indira Gandhi doesn't like big buildings. So actually according to the new law we have already built more than what the legal limit is. So what we did...

Prabhupāda: No, we have got some assetship(?) for the road? We have left over? Where is Saurabha?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Saurabha is in the front. Shall I call him?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...quite nice place for walking. Why it is drying? The leaf?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: People are coming just to see the building now.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When it is built it will be I think just like Vṛndāvana. Many people think that the temple is these two towers. They think that the actual temple are these towers.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is included in the... (break)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...watch the drama tonight also? They're going to have a drama also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can register it the name. Patron registration. Copyright registration.

Gargamuni: It says it in the book.

Jayapatākā: It says, but you should make sure it's registered.

Gargamuni: Gopāla, he printed it. I don't know if he had it registered. It says in the book, "All Rights Reserved."

Prabhupāda: That is your statement. But it must be legally protected.

Jayapatākā: They may check up and find out not so and then do it. That Bhagavāner Kathā was printed in what book? Do you know?

Prabhupāda: They have got a paper-Gauḍīya.

Gargamuni: These books that Gaura-Govinda, he wants to get printed. How do we know what is being said? I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the... One Orrian gentleman will come and get him to read this book. Then I can understand where he stands.

Room Conversation -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: And many Indians, they have come from Africa.

Maṇihāra: Kenya.

Prabhā Viṣṇu: Uganda, especially.

Prabhupāda: Uganda. They got English citizenship. Now they cannot refuse them legally.

Maṇihāra: There's one group, the National Front group, they are trying to stop the citizenship. Because the government they are saying, "Yes, we will make you citizens if you come here, get business." And they are fighting against this.

Prabhupāda: They are refusing citizenship to the children. Children born of Indians in England, naturally they should be citizens. But now they're refused.

Hari-śauri: They're making all of them get six-month visas. That's partly the reason why India is now thinking to impose visa regulations on the British, on British people who come here.

Prabhupāda: Why they are doing that? Why not make world citizen? So much space. Let anyone go anywhere and live as he likes.

Room Conversation -- September 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So how you can take care with nothing? Kṛṣṇa makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nārtasya ca... These things I have explained. That we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tāvat tanu-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām. If there is no sanction from Kṛṣṇa, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Kṛṣṇa does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that I shall take care of my family. But if Kṛṣṇa wants that you cannot take care of your family then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Kṛṣṇa? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Kṛṣṇa. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Kṛṣṇa. Take it from me. Kata bāccā? Four (Hindi) Separate. No more together. (Hindi) Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kṛpaṇa, brāhmaṇa, kṛpaṇa, tṛpyanti neha. He knows that one bāccā has given me so much trouble. Illicit or legal, (Hindi) it is troublesome business. Otherwise why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child.

Room Conversation -- September 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think they cannot ask you for sterilization. You are foreigners.

Akṣayānanda: Ask us for sterilization.

Hari-śauri: They can't sterilize us.

Akṣayānanda: Well, nobody's asked us yet.

Prabhupāda: No, legally can they?

Akṣayānanda: By law if you have three children.

Hari-śauri: If you become Indian citizen then.

Akṣayānanda: If you have three children in your family then by law you must have it.

Prabhupāda: So you have no children. "So let me produce first of all three children."

Akṣayānanda: Yes, right. That's what I thought.

Prabhupāda: This argument. "First of all finish my..."

Akṣayānanda: I had two when I was married.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Prabhupāda: No. The government allowed them, the Christian people. The government is allowing us also. Then where is the fault?

Interviewer: The fault is...

Prabhupāda: That is your imagination, fault.

Interviewer: It's not a legal fault.

Prabhupāda: Well, that's all right. We are preacher, we must preach in every way. We shall go everyone, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa consciousness literature. Kindly take it." That is our business. The government does not object to this. There are many cases in the court and the court allowed, "Yes. They should sell." We have got some... (break)

Hari-śauri: ...about 150,000 people every week to take our books.

Prabhupāda: Not only that. Where is that letter? Standard Literature? Here, there is one English company, Standard Literature Company. They are proposing that "We shall purchase every quarterly 200 sets of Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Let us settle terms." Do you mean to say it is extortion? And the professors are giving their opinion by extortion? It is appreciation. Unfortunately, you don't appreciate.

Room Conversation -- October 31, 1976, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: So Dr. Allen Gerson says, "I am here today as a citizen who dislikes injustice, as a person who's own people, because of their religious beliefs, are being persecuted repeatedly, and as a scientist who knows how ignorance can turn the normal rationality of people into blind hatred." (aside:) He's Jewish. "As a citizen I can see a great injustice perpetrated here. Several people, all of legal age, have chosen a lifestyle which, because it differs in form from our lifestyle, has been viewed by their families as unacceptable. These families with honest but misguided intentions have had their children removed from the Hare Kṛṣṇa Temple and have attempted to reprogram them to the behavior and attitudes of society at large. The reprogramming obviously did not work and their children returned to the movement, thus angering and frustrating their parents. Not being able to understand the wishes of their children, or their behavior, or their motivation for returning, and needing to blame someone they effected through devious means to have 2 members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa..."

Prabhupāda: He has used very nice strong words.

Room Conversation -- October 31, 1976, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: Hm. "They effected through devious means to have 2 members of the New York Hare Kṛṣṇa centers to be arrested. Therein lies the infection(?) of the injustice. To compound it, a judge and a grand jury agreed with their charges of unlawful imprisonment and brainwashing, a charge which is unheard of to my knowledge in civil legal proceedings, and ordered the devotees to be jailed. As a citizen I am appalled by the over-reaction, the lack of understanding, and the hate that finds wrongdoing, not only by the people that make the charges but by the court as well."

Haṁsadūta: He says the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Haṁsadūta: That this charge is unheard of in the legal history, brainwashing, and what was it? Brainwashing what?

Hari-śauri: Brainwashing.

Haṁsadūta: That there was never such a charge in the history of law, someone who's been brainwashed.

Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "As a person who's own people have been persecuted for their own beliefs I can sympathize with any..."

Prabhupāda: You can charge anyone, brainwashing.

Room Conversation -- October 31, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: And they say, the cow's urine, they are forcing to eat. (laughter) (Bengali) ...that they are forcing the devotees to drink cow's urine. (laughter) These are the charges: brainwash, mind control, forcing cow's urine to drink. (laughter) How clever they are to find out some fictitious faults.

Haṁsadūta: You see, you see they have, they put these 2 boys in a mental institution. Yes. When they can't... This is what happens in these countries. When they can't find any legal point, they can put the person into a mental institution to be examined. The premise is that if we find that a person is drinking cow's urine, we may think he must be crazy, because we have never heard of such a thing. So in this way they can...

Devotee (2): Commit them.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, they commit them...

Devotee (2): Forcibly they just put them into a mental institution where they're observed.

Hari-śauri: Where they... That observation, so-called observation means that they give them all kinds of drugs which make them very dopey and then they influence them to try to become normal again, what they think is normal. Sometimes they give them electric shocks which ...

Prabhupāda: In the lunatic asylum.

Room Conversation on New York court case -- November 2, 1976, Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: They should form. How the...?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But of course we want to defeat them...

Prabhupāda: The parents, the parents cannot control their sons and daughters who is above eighteen.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We want to defeat these people legally because now it's a very big case and every paper in America is covering it. Every paper.

Prabhupāda: That means they're feeling pressure. They're feeling pressure. Now we should take proper steps, that's all.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They had a big press conference in which Prof. Sukla spoke up...

Prabhupāda: Hm. He has written very nicely.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāmeśvara said he got up and he said "How can... You are insulting our religion..."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, better that the Indians should combine and they should bring a case against these people.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Room Conversation -- November 18, 1976, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: No one's got any literature like yours. At the most, they can produce a few pamphlets. They can't even produce one volume the size of the Bhāgavatam, what to speak of eighty. And if they could, no one would read them anyway.

Prabhupāda: No, on the whole there is now attempt to stop this movement. (break) ...but in... We have made so many court cases. Now, only loss we are feeling now—in some airports they have stopped our book selling. So formerly also, they were stopped and again revived.

Hari-śauri: Legally we haven't been stopped in any airport, I don't think.

Prabhupāda: Legally we have been stopped?

Jagadīśa: In Los Angeles, in Dallas and Atlanta.

Prabhupāda: Legally?

Hari-śauri: But that's only temporarily, I think.

Prabhupāda: What is the...?

Jagadīśa: It's a constant struggle.

Prabhupāda: Struggle must be there. You cannot stop it.

Press Conference -- December 16, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: New Naimiṣāraṇya?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hari-śauri: New Naimiṣāraṇya?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is secondary, but legal is...

Dr. Ramachandra: Shall we go now?

Mahāṁśa: I'll take them around.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Show them. Thank you very much. (break)

Guest (8): Mr. Patel?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (8): Did he invite you or...?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- December 26, 1976, Bombay:

Jagadīśa: "But such tactics are a gross violation of fundamental human and constitutional rights are to go without saying. In cases where victims have instigated charges of kidnapping against parents and deprogrammers, grand juries have thus far refused to issue indictments apparently because the work is done at the behest of parents or other relatives and ostensibly for the good of the victim. The situation which has prompted me to communicate with members of the professional psychiatric community involves sweeping implications of a very important legal case which will be going to trial sometime in the late winter or early spring. Some background of the case may be helpful here." Then he explains about the case. Anyway, it's very nicely written. And he's mostly trying to expose that the psychiatrists have to take an objective standpoint. Otherwise, there are some psychiatrists who are atheistic and they are contending that any religious experience or so-called religious consciousness is a...

Prabhupāda: Artificial dependence.

Jagadīśa: ...artificial dependence, yeah. So this is...

Prabhupāda: They say that there is a tissue in the brain, they disturb with this religious idea. They say like that. And if that tissue is operated then there will be no more religion. They can do that. With a brain operation he'll forget willfully. These rascal, so-called scientists, they can do anything.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Yogi Amrit Desai of Kripalu Ashram (PA USA) -- January 2, 1977, Bombay:

Yogi Amrit Desai: That is the strongest bond between the..., to the body and the soul.

Prabhupāda: He is asat. He doesn't... We say that strī-saṅgī, to associate with woman without marriage, we say, "Don't do this," but Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, either illicit or legal, it is asat.

Yogi Amrit Desai: Either married or unmarried, it is not.

Prabhupāda: It is asat. Therefore, when He was twenty-four years' age, He gave up His young..., home, wife. He became a sannyāsī, practically. And He was very, very strict to talk with woman. No woman could come before Him to offer respect. Little from far off. But His one of the personal associates, he simply desired. Immediately he was rejected, Choṭa Haridāsa.

Yogi Amrit Desai: I didn't understand. His personal associate...

Prabhupāda: He had His personal associate. His name was Choṭa Haridāsa. He looked upon one woman with lusty desires.

Morning Discussion about Kumbhamela -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, one woman may have more than one husband. Is it not?

Gurudāsa: Sometimes. Not legally.

Dr. Patel: That is why I said "secret" polyandry. This is official. Some of the Himalayan and Katwa, they... One brother marries and then she becomes the wife of two, three brothers. That is legal.

Prabhupāda: No... In here also the system was if one is childless, husband is dead or could not produce, she can take help of the husband's brothers. Devareṇa sutotpati: with the help of husband's brother to get child.

Trivikrama: But in Kali-yuga that's been...

Prabhupāda: That is forbidden. Kalau pañca vivarjayet (CC Adi 17.164).

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) And it is out to the enemies.

Rāmeśvara: In capital letters it says, "HELP PUSH THE HARE KRSNA COURT ACTION. There are two legal cases in progress..."

Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: "There are two legal cases in progress at this time that we must support—one in New York and one in Los Angeles. In New York the two ISKCON leaders have been indicted by the Queens County Grand Jury for unlawful imprisonment and attempted grand larceny. In Los Angeles, ISKCON and Madonna Slavin have accused her family of kidnapping, and charges of unlawful imprisonment have been entered against the mother and several other members of the Slavin family and two friends." These two friends are the professional deprogrammers. Then it says, "As in nearly all of these cases, the media will greatly influence the outcome. Do not underestimate the power of the media. We therefore must tell our story..."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's already become media.

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: This we can bring a charge against them: "Prove that we wanted money."

Rāmeśvara: Yes, we are counter... We are fighting them. "...by writing to the District Attorney's"—those are the Justice Department Offices—"or contacting your local media." Then they give the addresses of people in New York and two addresses in Los Angeles who you should write to telling them about all the knowledge you have about all the abuses of Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then it says, "You should commence action for a legal deprogramming. If other families of Hare Kṛṣṇa victims would go to court to get a legal conservatorship or guardianship with an intended writ of habeas corpus..." Now, what this means is you go to the court, and you say "My dear judge, my son is in Hare Kṛṣṇa. He has been brainwashed." And you have a paper from a psychiatrist that says, "Yes, he is definitely acting in a robotlike way." Then the court will say, "All right, you're the parent. So we give you legal guardianship over the son."

Prabhupāda: No, we can place a counter psychiatrist and counter... Just like Cox's statement.

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the right cause. Yes.

Rāmeśvara: They're already working on that. So then they say, "If you can do this to your son, then it will get national news media into the scene, and then people will learn about Hare Kṛṣṇa in particular, and all the effects of destructive cults on our youth." Then it says, "We have a legal packet which contains advice on the procedure and techniques for legal deprogramming."

Prabhupāda: So nowhere they have mentioned my name. That is good. (laughter) Otherwise, I would have been the target. That was very dangerous.

Rāmeśvara: Sometimes... One of the general charges they make against all the different religious groups in America is that the leader is actually making a lot of profit for himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Arrival of BBT Manager -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. When there is fight these things are studied. (Hindi) When there is fight there is no question of immoral or moral. "We must get victory," that's all. Kṛṣṇa did it. Kṛṣṇa asked...

Hari-śauri: According to this, they've made it legal, deprogramming. They're making it legal that they can hold a person by force until they break him mentally.

Jagadīśa: Rāmeśvara? Are there many of our devotees who've been deprogrammed, or are they mostly other groups?

Rāmeśvara: Mostly the others. Śrīla Prabhupāda, the business of the Book Trust has gotten very big. So the warehouse in Los Angeles has become too small. So we have gotten a new warehouse.

Prabhupāda: We have got a warehouse like Howrah Station.

Rāmeśvara: This is a picture of the new building.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Looks very nice.

Arrival of BBT Manager -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Oh. That's all right. Then it is all right.

Rāmeśvara: It will be permanent. Even if you brush into it, it will not break. Very durable.

Prabhupāda: All right. You take rest. We shall go a little... (everyone leaves room) (break)

Hari-śauri: They've actually legalized it. There's one group, they're claiming that by deprogramming people they give him freedom of thought.

Prabhupāda: But you are... By deprogramming... They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. You are checking. Where is the freedom of thought? Then you are illegal. They want to think of Kṛṣṇa, and you are checking. Then who is illegal? We have to put in that way, in their word, that "Then you have no right to check him about thinking of Kṛṣṇa." This will be our argument. Yes. How you can check? Let him think of Kṛṣṇa freely, because Kṛṣṇa wants. Then you have to take Bhagavad-gītā as illegal.

Hari-śauri: Yeah, if they condemn the whole thing, they have to condemn the whole, entire Hindu religion.

Prabhupāda: That's it. We have to fight in that way.

Conversation and Instruction On New Movie -- January 13, 1977, Allahabad:

Prabhupāda: These are weapons. That was the only endeavor, how legally he could occupy the bricks and stones of Gauḍīya Math. That's all. He had no other ambition. How to push on Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, how to push on Guru Mahārāja's... He had no such. It was simply show. But real purpose was how to occupy, how to take the whole property. Business.

Rāmeśvara: And none of the other Godbrothers had strong preaching spirits.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They also, when they saw that "This man is legally taking everything. Gauḍīya sannyāsīs, we cannot go home. We must have some shelter." No spirit of pushing on.

Rāmeśvara: Even by your example they have not learned anything.

Prabhupāda: No, my... Of course, I did not attempt in the beginning. I started my activities when I was seventy years old. So they thought, "This man is gṛhastha. He is embarassed with family life. What he'll do?" (laughs) That was their impression. But I never neglected. Guru Mahārāja told me. I was simply thinking, "How to do it? How to do it?" I thought, "Let me become a rich businessman. The money will be required." That was my thought. But Guru Mahārāja was asking me, "You give up this. I'll give you money." That I could not understand. I was planning. My plan was not wrong. But I was thinking "The money required, so let me earn some money. Then I shall begin." And Guru Mahārāja said, "You give up this money-earning endeavor. You come completely. I'll give you money." I can understand now. But my desire was there. Therefore he guided me.

Conversation and Instruction On New Movie -- January 13, 1977, Allahabad:

Prabhupāda: But that is English and in India vernacular so there is no question of competition.

Rāmeśvara: Right. So the question is that the magazines in America, the readers like very much to have a feeling of who the author is, who the different writers are, the editors. So we are using our spiritual names on the list of writers and editors and so on. So they have asked me to enquire whether in parentheses they can also have their legal names.

Prabhupāda: Why not?

Rāmeśvara: That way, because they cannot pronounce these names, Gopīparanadhana.

Prabhupāda: Fine, allow this.

Rāmeśvara: Then it seems like a foreign thing.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes, you can...

Rāmeśvara: So should we have both names?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes.

Rāmeśvara: Use both names.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Just like emergency.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Hari-śauri: In Russia they do that. When they don't like someone, they put him in a mental home.

Rāmeśvara: That was that whole article I brought from page one of L.A. Times, that how they have made this legal. And now they have got tax exemption. So now it's going to increase. For the next year it's going to increase, because they're going to get a lot of money from the families as tax write-offs.

Prabhupāda: Tax invention? What is that?

Rāmeśvara: They call themselves educational organizations. They are educating the public because they do speaking engagements at colleges and different places. So on the basis of that, they applied to the federal government, "Please, we are just an educational group. You must give us tax exemption." So they have been given that. Now people can donate money to them. Instead of paying taxes to the U.S. government, they can donate money to them in exchange for paying taxes. (laughs) So the fighting will get more...

Prabhupāda: Intense.

Evening Darsana -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: So you can drag some meaning. That is another thing. But Kurukṣetra is there still.

Mr. Pandiya: That is the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.

Guest (2): That is interpretation.

Prabhupāda: That is interpretation. Interpretation... Here is a person in the legal way. Interpretation is required when you cannot understand. Is it not?

Guest (2): Interpretation...

Prabhupāda: But when the things are understood very clearly, why interpretation?

Guest (2): It will, rather, confuse.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Suppose I will drag this meaning...

Prabhupāda: This was protested by Caitanya Mahāprabhu vigorously. Why should you interpret?

Guest (4) (Indian man): Yes. He told, the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is the ultimate bhāṣya of prasthāna code, Vedānta-sūtra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, anything, if you can understand very clearly, where is the question of interpretation? But it has become a fashion that "If I can interpret in my own way, I become a big scholar." This is going on. If you have got your philosophy, you can speak. Everyone is free. Why you should take Bhagavad-gītā and distort it? Kṛṣṇa never meant that "In future Gandhi will come," or "Dr. Radhakrishnan will come, and he will explain My ideas." What is this nonsense? Kṛṣṇa was a foolish person that he left it for Gandhi for distortion? He could not explain Himself that Kurukṣetra means this body? Gandhi has to interpret? Do you think it is right?

Guest (5) (Indian man): Not at all.

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not take our testimony? We are... Now take.

Gargamuni: Even in the church they do that. If some priest is not following or introduces something new, they are excommunicated. So we have excommunicated him. Why he should be listened to?

Prabhupāda: He's no more in this.

Gargamuni: That's legal. In the church they do that. Why we cannot do?

Prabhupāda: That is natural. Somebody will go out and speak against us.

Satsvarūpa: The demons are very eager to hear. "Oh, tell us what they did to you."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) "That is not your business. You better ask because you have taken him as authority. You have already taken him as authority, the excommunicated member. So you ask him." These things will happen. In preaching, you cannot expect very smooth path going. Otherwise what is the use of preaching?

Hari-śauri: That's been going on for a long time.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: At least you should take our books, that "This is our statement. Defense is. You first of all read this; then give your judgment."

Satsvarūpa: One of their biggest charges is that we don't...

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. All charges are replied in these books. So you read these books and argue on this. Finish this. Then give judgment. Make this. Make a firm. Bring all these eighty-four books. That is legal! From law point, it is legal. What I have to say, you have to hear. So we have said everything there.

Gargamuni: Instead of spending for these lawyers, let us bring your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes!

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Puri:

Hari-śauri: And only flesh. No blood.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then he was trapped. So we have to do like that. Sate sārtham samācaret.(?) If the other party is tricky, you should be also tricky. Why you should be so plain? And this is quite legal, that "This is our statement, these eighty-four books. We have got others also, but some of them are here. So, my lord, you read this statement. Let us argue." Then it will be read. They have to. They cannot say, "No, I am not going to take any..." That is illegal. Whatever I say, he has to take. Then there is argument. First of all statement. The court procedure is: I have charged you with something. Court will ask you, "What you have got to say against these charges?" So you'll submit your statement. Then both the statements, the court's duty is to study and give the judgment. This is the law. So they have charged us with something. We give our statement. "Now you study and argue, and then give your judgment." Hm? What do you think?

Satsvarūpa: We should introduce the books as much as possible.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- January 28, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: No, you say, but he is such a learned, overlearned, he's asking somebody blessing who is not bona fide to find out bona fide. Just see his position. If you are seeking a bona fide spiritual master, why you asking the blessing of non-bona fide? (laughs) I could simply laugh, that's all, that such a rascal... He was doing some tangible service, editing work. He left everything. Now he's going to find out bona fide spiritual..., for bhajanānanda. Therefore, asat-saṅga-tyāgī ei vaiṣṇava. The first thing is... It is enunciated by... Whether this man is attached to woman? Then finish, all bona fide finish. As soon as one is attached to woman, either legal or illegal, his all qualification finished. Asat eka strī-saṅgī. And these rascals have derived meaning that "One who has one strī only, he's asat. One who has more than one strī, he's sat." They have interpreted like that. Asat eka strī-saṅgī. Kṛṣṇa mean... Number one asat is strī-saṅgī, and number two asat is who is not devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is the meaning. But they have taken, eka strī-saṅgī: "One who keeps only one woman, he's asat. One who keeps more than one woman, he is sat. So we are keeping more than one woman." This is going on. (break) Nobody has seen. Somebody came. He... They only saw. And there are other devotees; they could not see. He's so advanced, only he is, he could see. This is bogus.

Room Conversation -- February 12, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: It is lying vacant. So...

Jayapatākā: There are so many places which are like that, where there is mandira being built and and sevā-pūjā is going on, and there is one sevāita or one organization has got the sevā responsibility, and that's under their charge. I think that that legality can be worked around, whatever it may be. Because our purpose is public.

Prabhupāda: The municipal means public.

Jayapatākā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So for public benefit why they shall not give?

Jayapatākā: Even that place at Calcutta, they never said it was illegal to give to us. They only said they didn't want to give. That Calcutta pukura, they never said it was illegal to give. So in this place, they said they want to give. So why they should...?

Prabhupāda: Where is illegality? For public, it is a historical place.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: This is very dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of our devotees in California was kidnapped out of the airport. She was distributing books in the airport in San Francisco, and because the court gave an order to the parents that "For thirty days you can take your daughter and commit her," so they have brought her to Arizona, where they have a special center set up for deprogramming, legal psychological tests. So for thirty days they ran these... They did some... We don't know what's going on there, some horrible things. Now the girl has sent a letter, and it showed that she is no longer in a devotional attitude. She said, "I'm very glad that I was rescued. Otherwise I would have been made to collect money all my life for your society, and now I'm saved from this."

Prabhupāda: She had been dictated to write like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. But probably they did some brain thing to her.

Prabhupāda: That is brainwash.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Hari-śauri: That's like when you first made it International Society for Krishna Consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. So they have taken it very seriously, to stop.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Because their own young children, the future of the country, are joining these cults.

Brahmānanda: Two states have now passed laws making this deprogramming legal, and also they have given tax exemption. That means the government is giving...

Prabhupāda: Support.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Support.

Brahmānanda: And they're even talking that maybe the government will give financial grant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are afraid that these Kṛṣṇa conscious men may capture the government.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Some of them are saying like that, "This organization, the Kṛṣṇa con..., is a very powerful organization, and their ambition is to take over the world."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) And that's a fact. (laughter) Well, let us see. (laughter) It is a fight between Kṛṣṇa and demon. Let us do our duty and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything will be all right. There are so many demons. Prahlāda Mahārāja was five-years-old boy, and his father, such a big demon... The fight was at home. Still, Prahlāda Mahārāja gained victory. Similarly, you are all Prahlāda Mahārāja, (laughs) and your fathers are great demons. The fight is there. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Depend on Kṛṣṇa. You'll come out victorious. Nṛsiṁha-deva will come. So the poison of (laughing) Kṛṣṇa consciousness is acting now. That is good. If we come out victorious, then it will be a great victory.

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: How...? What does he say about our books?

Satsvarūpa: One time I heard he challenged a devotee, "Where is your Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva now to save you?" And also, "We have heard that if the Lord is blasphemed, you're supposed to either give up your life or leave the place, so why don't you do? Or cut out the..., cut out your tongue. So why don't you do that now?"

Ādi-keśava: They used that as one legal argument. They said that one of our devotees should be put in the mental hospital for his own protection, because otherwise he would go and kill himself. And the court said, "Why is that?" They said, "Well, because in their books it says that if a devotee hears someone blaspheming the spiritual master or Kṛṣṇa, then they have to commit suicide."

Prabhupāda: No, they will argue on so many things.

Ādi-keśava: "Or cut their tongue out." They said, "Either they will cut my tongue out or they will kill themself. So either way, they should be put in a mental hospital."

Prabhupāda: No, or you go away from that place.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Hari-śauri: In every civilized human society there is some set of scriptural rules and regulations which are followed from the beginning, especially among the Āryans, those who adopt the Vedic civilization and who are known as the most advanced civilized peoples. Those who do not follow the scriptural injunctions are supposed to be demons. Therefore it is stated here that the demons do not know the scriptural rules, nor do they have any inclination to follow them. Most of them do not know them, and even if some of them know, they have not the tendency to follow them. They have no faith, nor are they willing to act in terms of the Vedic injunctions. The demons are not clean, either externally or internally.

One should always be careful to keep his body clean by bathing, brushing teeth, changing clothes, etc. As far as internal cleanliness is concerned, one should always remember the holy names of God and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. The demons neither like nor follow all these rules for external and internal cleanliness.

As for behavior, there are many rules and regulations guiding human behavior, such as the Manu-saṁhitā, which is the law of the human race. Even up to today, those who are Hindu follow the Manu-saṁhitā. Laws of inheritance and other legalities are derived from this book. Now, in the Manu-saṁhitā, it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children. Children are not given freedom, but that does not mean that they are kept as slaves. The demons have now neglected such injunctions, and they think that women should be given as much freedom as men. However, this has not improved the social condition of the world. Actually, a woman should be given protection at every stage of life. She should be given protection by the father in her younger days, by the husband in her youth, and by the grownup sons in her old age. This is proper social behavior according to the Manu-saṁhitā. But modern education has artificially devised a puffed up concept of womanly life, and therefore marriage is practically now an imagination in human society. Nor is the moral condition of woman very good now. The demons, therefore, do not accept any instruction which is good for society, and because they do not follow the experience of great sages and the rules and regulations laid down by the sages, the social condition of the demoniac people is very miserable.

(break), The demoniac conclude that the world is phantasmagoria. There is no cause, no effect, no controller, no purpose: everything is unreal. They say that this cosmic manifestation arises due to chance material actions and reactions. They do not think that the world was created by God for a certain purpose. They have their own theory: that the world has come about in its own way and that there is no reason to believe that there is a God behind it. For them there is no difference between spirit and matter, and they do not accept the Supreme Spirit. Everything is matter only, and the whole cosmos is supposed to be a mass of ignorance. According to them, everything is void, and whatever manifestation exists is due to our ignorance in perception. They take it for granted that all manifestation of diversity is a display of ignorance. Just as in a dream we may create so many things, which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream. And so, instead of acquiring knowledge, they become more and more implicated in their dreamland. They conclude that as a child is simply the result of sexual intercourse between man and woman, this world is born without any soul. For them it is only a combination of matter that has produced the living entities, and there is no question of the existence of the soul. As many living creatures come out from perspiration and from a dead body without any cause, similarly, the whole living world has come out of the material combinations of the cosmic manifestation. Therefore material nature is the cause of this manifestation, and there is no other cause. They do not believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad-gītā: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram. "Under My direction the whole material world is moving." In other words, amongst the demons there is no perfect knowledge of the creation of this world; every one of them has some particular theory of his own. According to them, one interpretation of the scriptures is as good as another, for they do not believe in a standard understanding of the scriptural injunctions.

Prabhupāda: Should we read?

Hari-śauri: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: It is already there.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: What is that? (breaks)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...kidnapped three of our devotees about a week before we... Just about a week...

Prabhupāda: So we cannot take any position?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, no, because the kidnapping is legal. They got...

Prabhupāda: Then what can be done?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They got permission from the court for conservatorship.

Ādi-keśava: But two of the devotees have already escaped.

Prabhupāda: If it is legal, what can I say?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's... This is their new tactic now. This is their new tactic, that they're getting the court permission.

Prabhupāda: Then Americans' liberty is gone.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: So that you have to explain, what is that transcendental knowledge. So what is to be done now if they're taking our boys by force?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's two things. One thing is that from our side we have to explain that they have no brains. That we have to preach. And from the other side, all of these other professional groups who are helping us, they have to counteract what these deprogrammers are doing by lobbying in Congress and all the other legal means. We cannot do that, but they have position; they can do that. So we should inspire them to do that.

Ādi-keśava: For every letter that the deprogrammers write to some Congressmen, they have to write a letter. For every speech that the deprogrammers give, they must give a speech. That is the only way it will work. Just like they applied to the Catholic Church to speak in the classes of the Catholic Church about cults and deprogramming. So now we have also had our people apply to the Catholic Church that we can also speak in their classes in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: So then you have to go?

Ādi-keśava: But they have to do it because they will listen to the professionals. They won't listen to us. They say, "You just want to talk your religion." But if a professional man, a big professor, comes in and says, "I can tell you..."

Prabhupāda: We have got so many professor friends. There is Dr. Stillson Judah, Dr. Sukla. There are so many.

Room Conversation with Adi-kesava Swami -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: If you are feeling alone, you must take somebody else, one or two, with you.

Ādi-keśava: I always have Tripurāri Swami with me.

Prabhupāda: Gosvāmī is... That's all right.

Ādi-keśava: We're together a lot. But one thing is, when we are fighting this case, there's a lot of legal expense, because although we are fighting the atheists in the courtroom, the lawyers who are working for us, they are also atheists, but they are the best materially. Our one lawyer, for instance, in New York, he is considered one of the best lawyers in the country. But he is charging us so much money, and although we do as much work as we can ourselves...

Prabhupāda: Why we appoint lawyer?

Ādi-keśava: Well, in the court there are certain things that only the lawyer may argue. We're not allowed to argue ourselves. Now, one thing is that Hari-śauri has just told me that Guru-kṛpā Mahārāja has one man on his party who was a lawyer, a member of the bar in Australia. So I'm thinking to ask Guru-kṛpā Mahārāja if he can come with us to New York and get admitted to the bar in New York and become our attorney.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It will be very nice.

Room Conversation with Adi-kesava Swami -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: So you have to pay. What can be done?

Ādi-keśava: So if you're willing to do that, I will do it.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Ādi-keśava: I'm hoping that if we can organize some legal office for the society, then we will be able to do this more effectively.

Prabhupāda: What is this?

Ādi-keśava: This is that book we made for the conference, the ACLU conference in New York.

Prabhupāda: Who he is?

Ādi-keśava: He is one of the guṇḍās.

Hari-śauri: In England, this one.

Ādi-keśava: No, he's in...

Hari-śauri: No, in Ipswich.

Ādi-keśava: Ipswich, Massachusetts.

Hari-śauri: Oh, sorry. I thought...

Ādi-keśava: He is in... This is one of the men who was used to hold a devotee during a deprogramming, a big... I know this man personally. You see, already we have sometimes come to blows with them. We had one incident where a devotee was being held captive, and I went with some devotees in the middle of the night, and we had some fighting. The police stopped us. They took me away and beat me and threw me in the bushes, and then they kept the boy there, the devotee. He got away later. But men like this we have fought with several times. When it comes to these questions, I wanted to know, when there is sometimes some violence...

Prabhupāda: What can be done? Violence. Beat him.

Room Conversation with Adi-kesava Swami -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Ādi-keśava: They're hired men. This is the case of one of their men who was later held for murder of another man. He was used in a deprogramming, and then later on, some months later, he murdered some man and went to jail for it. So they're very serious. It's not just philosophical arguments. There's a list here in this book we've made of the devotees in our movement who've been taken. This list is very recent, by temple. You can see in practically every temple they have taken some devotees, some who are..., most of them are back in our movement, but some who are not. But now their tactic is this legal thing. Now they get this legal conservatorship, and then even we go and save the devotee, we take them back, the police can come and arrest us. So in these cases we are finding that the only thing to do is sometimes to go and physically drag them away and hide them until the term of this thing is up. Another thing is we are giving, as we said yesterday, some asylum in other countries, like with Canada. And one thing is that the Indian government told me that they would give me asylum. The Ambassador told me that if I were to be held, the Indian government would give me asylum.

Prabhupāda: That is very good.

Room Conversation -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Ādi-keśava: I was wondering, I've been... While in New York I've been worshiping the Deities, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, but now, because of this case, I'm forced to travel more between some of the temples and because of the legal work. So I was thinking to take some Deities with me to worship wherever I go.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Sannyāsī is not required.

Ādi-keśava: All right.

Bhakti-caru(?): Are there any mūrti, having?

Prabhupāda: No. A sannyāsī's not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when he was traveling, He was not carrying any Deity. Deity worship is specially recommended for the gṛhasthas. That is compulsory.

Room Conversation with GBC members -- March 2-3, 1977, Mayapura:

Satsvarūpa: We made resolutions regarding book distribution techniques. Any illegal techniques for book distribution, that is, illegal according to law, should be banned, including... And then a comprehensive list will follow, mainly supplied by Rāmeśvara Mahārāja. They will include some things like outright illegal techniques.

Prabhupāda: Real point is if we can introduce book, there is nothing illegal. Everything is legal. Now, to save us from so-called legal complication, we must be legal. Otherwise there is nothing illegal, what we do for Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: That was our conclusion, Prabhupāda, that there are just a few practices...

Prabhupāda: But we have to take care of the public.

Satsvarūpa: Things... Some of them mentioned were to imitate a deaf and dumb man and ask for charity, imitating that... (laughter)

Prabhupāda: That's not bad. (laughter)

Kīrtanānanda: Some boys were arrested for that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They will arrest you in the United States if they catch you. They have done that.

Brahmānanda: That is considered fraud.

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, the points that we are proposing to ban will not decrease book distribution, so they can be eliminated and book distribution will not be decreased.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the real legal thing is: some way or other, introduce books. Therefore... And it will be beneficial in the long time let us see.

Room Conversation with GBC members -- March 2-3, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Rectify.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Also for book distribution techniques, the use of the Santa Claus uniform and other theatrical costumes is banned, not to be done.

Prabhupāda: Is there any legal objection?

Satsvarūpa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why?

Kīrtanānanda: They're legal.

Hṛdayānanda: There was a great deal of negative publicity.

Kīrtanānanda: They are legal...

Prabhupāda: So if it is legal, why shall they be...?

Rāmeśvara: The reason it was decided is that even though it is legal in America, in foreign countries there is bad reaction. The Americans do not mind as much as the foreign countries. So we are concerned for the international image of our movement.

Room Conversation with GBC members -- March 2-3, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Then it is all right.

Rāmeśvara: That's the real thing. That's the key factor.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Satsvarūpa: A legal committee of Balavanta, Ādi-keśava, and Rāmeśvara will investigate whether certain techniques are legal or illegal according to the laws. Then one of the popular means to distribute books is by women's party. A party of women will travel under the care of a man devotee. But in taking care of the women, we have noted that some of these parties have been preaching a false philosophy of the relationship of the man who's taking care of the women, and that philosophy is that the saṅkīrtana leader is the eternal husband and protector of the women in the party. We want that this philosophy should be rejected. If a man is taking care of a number of women in a saṅkīrtana party, he should be regarded as the son as well as a representative of the spiritual master, of Śrīla Prabhupāda, and not the husband of these women.

Prabhupāda: Husband, but why he does not marry them? (laughter)

Evening Darsana -- May 12, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Indian man (3): Sir, do you not consider it advisable to get the judgment that the Americans have translated into Indian so we can look?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That... We require an expert lawyer. There are some technical terms. Ordinary man cannot translate. If amongst yourselves there is a lawyer, if he helps us translate, we can publish it. There are so many legal... The judgment is wonderful judgment.

Indian man (3): Historical judgment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was expecting to fight that case at least for some years, but by Kṛṣṇa's grace he has given on the first day the judgment.

Indian man (3): Was it argued on also?

Prabhupāda: No. Simply we presented our statement. I advised them that "You take my eighty-four books and present before the judge that 'Our statements are here. First of all you read these books. Then you give your judgment.'

Evening Darsana -- May 14, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Prabhupāda: You can give him.

Guest (1): If I... If I could have access to it?

Prabhupāda: He's done(?).

Guest (1): Yes, you can safely believe. (Hindi) But I couldn't follow all the legal words.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Guest (2) (Indian man): He says that he passed his M.A... He passed his M.A.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Guest (2): And there he told it's all right to...

Guest (1): Faith.

Guest (2): Faith.

Guest (1): Faith, yes, yes.

Guest (2): Not Christianity or not Hinduism. Anything you like.

Prabhupāda: Not anything.

Conversation with M.P., Shri Sita Ram Singh -- May 19, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Do they not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In some countries in the West they perform this operation for... What do they call it?

Indian man (1): Abortion.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Abortion. They have legalized abortion. So the unborn fetus, after it's aborted, they're eating as food.

Sita Ram Singh: They have devised also even in Indian also. I don't know about...

Prabhupāda: Therefore I said, "Why do you speak of this country?" This will happen everywhere.

Sita Ram Singh: If such pāpa hoga,(?) how one can expect betterment of the nation?

Prabhupāda: Pāpa? (Hindi) Prakṛteḥ kriya...

Indian man (1): Is there any way out?

Prabhupāda: Where the Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Why don't you come? You'll not come. You'll stick to your own principle. Here is the way out. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. "No." You'll make your own party, that's all, and suffer. What can be done? You'll never take good advice from Kṛṣṇa. You'll take advice from Indira Gandhi. That's it.

Short Dissertations -- May 24-25, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Dear Mr. Secretary, First of all I take the privileged opportunity of tendering with folded hands my most respectful praṇāma to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swamiji Mahārāja, who was so kind to me during his stay here. Next I sincerely apologize for not being able to complete the task entrusted to me earlier, the reason being that I was taken ill for two days. Thirdly I confess that living out of touch with Hindi legal words, I could not properly reflect correct and appropriate Hindi equivalent words at some places, and therefore I have tried to explain the purport. The translation rendered and tendered..." Very nice way of speaking it.

Prabhupāda: Hm. This is lawyer, judge.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "...rendered and tendered herewith may not be treated as an authoritative, verbatim translation. There is much scope for improvement. For the present it may be used and circulated in a narrow circle."

Prabhupāda: We don't want much improvement. Your translation is...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he says...

Prabhupāda: So arrange for...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Printing it.

Conversation Pieces -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Rāmeśvara: That's coming up. "The properties which shall constitute the trust fund and will hereinafter be called the trust properties shall include the following, hereinafter listed." Then for each trust there is a complete listing of the property, the temple and the Deities, a legal listing.

Prabhupāda: Inventory.

Rāmeśvara: Inventory, yes, inventory. Then "Section 2: Name of the Trust. This trust shall be known by the name..." So for each trust there's a different name. For Māyāpur it is proposed, "Śrī Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir Trust." For Bombay, "Śrī-Śrī-Rādhā-Rāsa-Vihārījī Temple Trust," for Vṛndāvana, "Śrī-Śrī-Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Mandir Trust," and that will include the Gurukula. For Bhuvaneśvara, "Śrī-Śrī-Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Bhuvaneśvara Trust." It goes on to say, "In so far as possible, the trustees shall conduct the trust activities in that name. Section 3: The Purpose of the Trust. This trust is created and shall be operated exclusively for fulfilling the aims and objects of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as per the memorandum of association. ISKCON is registered as a society under the Society Act of 1860, and is registered as a public charitable trust. We direct that no part of this trust shall inure to the benefit of any private individual, and no part of the activities of this trust shall consist of participating in or intervening in any political campaign on behalf of any candidate for public office." Then "Section 4: The Use of the Trust. Irrevocably, the properties, the temple and the Deities thereupon and all other holdings of the trust shall never be mortgaged, borrowed against, sold, transferred..."

Prabhupāda: Stole?

Rāmeśvara: "Sold."

Prabhupāda: Sold.

Srila Prabhupada Vigil -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Bring some fruits.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "I remembered Śrīla Prabhupāda's introduction to the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and I began to speak further. 'Although mankind has made great material advancement in so many spheres, we can factually say that there is a fault in the social body at large. People are not happy with their day-to-day activities, and there is an increasing disturbance of drug addiction, prostitution, violence and crime. The root of the problem is lack of God consciousness. People are unaware of the actual purpose of life.' The judge, intrigued by this sound philosophy coming from the witness box, relaxed his judicial appearance, sat back, and took a sip of water from his glass. Encouraged, I asked, 'Your honor, with your permission I would like to read a short passage which appeared in the London Observer in October, 1972. It is an excerpt from an article written by the eminent English historian Sir Arnold Toynbee. "The cause of it, the world's malady, is spiritual. We are suffering from having sold our souls to the pursuit of an objective which is both spiritually wrong and practically unattainable. We have to reconsider our objective and change it, and until we do this, we shall not have peace either amongst ourselves or within each of us." ' Then the devotee continued. " 'As devotees of the Lord, we strictly follow four principles, cultivating the qualities of human life: mercifulness, truthfulness, cleanliness and austerity. The absence of these qualities means the degradation of society. So the spreading of spiritual understanding amongst humanity at large is the highest welfare work, and an essential part of this program is the distribution and the congregational chanting in the street of the holy names of God.' 'Is that all?' inquired the judge. 'Yes, sir,' was the reply. 'Then you may step down,' he instructed. Adjusting his spectacles and regarding the devotees, who were once more assembled in the dock, he said in a very firm yet amicable manner, 'In legal terms you are guilty of obstruction, although it is of a very minor degree. Taking this into consideration and because of your obvious sincerity, I have decided to dismiss the case.' We smiled jubilantly and, thanking the magistrate, were about to step down when Kṛṣṇa prompted me to say, 'Sir, we were wondering if you had a court library here, in which case we would like to present a book for addition to the collection.' 'Thank you,' replied the judge. 'I am quite sure we can accommodate it.' Giving a copy of Śrīla Prabhupāda's Śrī Īśopaniṣad to one of the clerks, who promised to pass it on to the judge, we left the courtroom, thanking Lord Nityānanda for His mercy." Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda

Guest (1): (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: And that judgment is still wrong.

Discussions -- June 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll give you tomorrow. I'll think over this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Any more, Girirāja?

Girirāja: That's all for the will.

Rāmeśvara: There's one other item that has been recommended by several persons, Prabhupāda, and that is the will is only a legal document after the maker of the will has departed, so in the interim period, they have suggested an affidavit for any properties or, say, fixed deposits that are in your personal name, and this affidavit would simply state that the purpose of these fixed deposits and properties is for ISKCON. In that way the government will never be able to exact any taxes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there some wording there?

Rāmeśvara: Do you want me to read it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If Prabhupāda likes.

Rāmeśvara: So we have prepared an affidavit. Shall we read it?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Letter from Yugoslavia--'Books!' -- June 30, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Like an ass. Have you not seen the ass? Can anyone work like that? The animal is so small, and the load is ten times than his body's weight. You have not seen? If you weigh the animal's body and the load, the load is ten times more than his body. This is the punishment. And again, the man who is loading him now, he'll have to become an ass and take the load. This is called karma-bandhana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He writes, "Many days... After working for more than one day at several universities, my presence became too obvious, and this becomes politically and legally dangerous, although in some little cities I became practically the talk of the town because people had not seen one with a dark body as mine, speaking only English and a little French." He's very dark. (break) He says, "Most important at this school was that after four days of trying to meet the Indologist, we were successful. I met the man and his assistant. They kept stressing that we were..." (break)

Prabhupāda: If required, you can show this line to Mr. Koku(?). In foreign countries they are no more interested in philosophical speculation. Actually they are not, neither in America nor India.

Room Conversation -- July 27-28, 1977, Vrndavana:

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. So there is one member of Parliament in Gujarat who belongs to the party of the Home Minister. He was the chairman of party Lok Dal. It was Charan Singh's party. And he... I met him, and I explained to him that we wanted some citizenship for some devotees or something like that, and he mentioned it to Charan Singh when he came back from Delhi. And Charan Singh said that if it was... There's discussion, then definitely... I mean if there's no legal hitch, he will certainly help. Then I said but they want to come and meet you also. So he said, "Yes, you can bring them." So tomorrow... I came this week, and tomorrow the member says that we can meet him. Now I just heard that there was some news yesterday? So that... We will have to make two applications, one to clear up that incident...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the member will come here to Vṛndāvana to see Prabhupāda?

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, if I bring him he'll come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Not bad.

Yaśomatīnandana: But he might not come immediately.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said he wanted to meet Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't go to him. This Māyāpur incident is a handling of the Communists.

Room Conversation -- October 3, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Then tell Girirāja. Ask Girirāja to take...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because they see that you're not that well, and they also know that you're so merciful. And you're also a local Brajabāsī in a way. Therefore they're always against any of us taking any participation. It's the funniest thing. I explained something to Girirāja. He's been dealing with so many legal things for so long that he's become like a lawyer, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Central Bank is very straightforward.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Um hm. Very good and straightforward.

Room Conversation -- October 3, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one Dr. Sharma wanted to open a Gurukula account. So they told him, "You have no authority whatsoever. Bhagatji has no authority, Akṣayānanda has no authority, Gopāla... Only Prabhupāda has authority." The funny thing about this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that according to our memorandum, they're not correct. Actually, according to the memorandum, two members of the Bureau can pass a resolution to open an account. But the most amazing thing is they don't accept the Bureau. They accept something called the Governing Body, which legally in India doesn't have any weight. And when I tried to explain to them that there's a memorandum and there's a Bureau, they said, "We don't accept it. Everything is Prabhupāda, and he's the chairman of the Governing Body." When I told this to Girirāja, Girirāja just laughed and said that...

Prabhupāda: If Girirāja can deal with these men, then let him do it immediately.

Room Conversation -- October 3, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: If Girirāja can deal with these men, then let him do it immediately.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Very good. He can, because he thinks legally, and that's how you have to deal with these men. They're actually small time, and they're just harassing us because we're acting in a very gentlemanly way and they're acting in a very ungentlemanly way. Anyway, we're not going to take out our fixed deposits. The ones that are there should be matured. But when they're matured, if we want to transfer them to somewhere else, we should have the freedom to do that and not be bound to have to keep the money there. That's the only point. And we'll be bringing so much money. Your Divine Grace has plans for making Vṛndāvana very much developed. So they should not worry like that. None of our other bankers are worried. They see sometimes we take the money, sometimes we bring money. But because of the way they're dealing, we don't want to bring any money. I'll tell Girirāja to..., if he can deal with this matter, that he should take it up. He wanted to meet them. He said he wanted to see what...

Prabhupāda: Let him meet.

Room Conversation -- October 4, 1977, Vrndavana:

Bali-mardana: Would you like Haṁsadūta to chant some more?

Prabhupāda: Hm, hm. Yes. (Haṁsadūta chants) (break)

Girirāja: On the one hand, the full management of the society rests with Your Divine Grace. But on the other hand, as a society, there is also a bureau which passes resolutions. So they were confused as to the relationship between Your Divine Grace and the Bureau. So they wanted to clarify some of these issues with their legal department.

Prabhupāda: Is there any difficulty?

Girirāja: There's no difficulty.

Room Conversation -- October 9, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So these people have agreed?

Girirāja: The local people? Well, they have not agreed. That's why we felt that we have to meet the chairman. Legally we have every right to transfer the fixed deposit wherever we like, and if the former chairman is with us, then they can't give any false excuses because he knows all the rules. Actually we're not asking for anything special. Otherwise we're... Probably the local people will try to avoid giving it up. But this is our right, and the chairman has to uphold our right as customers of the bank.

Prabhupāda: What is their plea here?

Girirāja: Local people? Well, they will say that there's no reason to transfer the fixed deposits.

Prabhupāda: We have reason.

Girirāja: Yes, we have reason. That is our choice. And the manager in Delhi already said that for our foreign remittances it would be much easier to bring it in Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- October 12, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Magistrate wants my presence?

Jayapatākā: No. It is not required that you talk to him. There's no... Everyone says that there's no case for that. The previous ADM said that actually the person that was doing it is this woman district magistrate. That woman is quite inimical to us. So there's very strong talk that after Durgā Pūjā she'll be transferred. If she's transferred, then our situation would become much better, I hope, by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. She's just trying to harass us, but actually she has no legal scope. Indian Overseas Bank came out, the additional general manager, to Māyāpur, and he's very eager to open up the branch at Māyāpur also, because they have already in Bombay. I think... They have here also? I don't know. But he was eager to open a branch there. They have made us an application. The Central Bank sent a letter, withdrew their application for opening the bank. Right now the Gurukula, they have just finished their examinations. Their examinations were writing an English sentence in Sanskrit and writing Sanskrit in English and similar type tests. They, most of the students got seventy percent on the examination. Then the bigger children went out on saṅkīrtana with the two traveling parties, one to Darjeeling. In Darjeeling they sold seven thousand books in less than ten days. They had very good reception in Darjeeling. And one party is still in Bihar. They did four thousand books.

Prabhupāda: Bengal book.

Room Conversation -- October 18, 1977, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: Always more or less warm. Tropical, subtropical. Always nice fruits. Perhaps some day, in a Kṛṣṇa conscious world, we'll have to bring many people there, because there's so much unused land, all very green, lots of rivers, very nice, warm, and no one lives there. Thousands of miles of very nice land, and no one is using it. We are sending a few devotees back to Argentina, and we're going to try and see what can be done there. We are hopeful that even though our movement was kicked out there, still, there are many, many people who are chanting sixteen rounds or building altars in their homes and offering their food to Kṛṣṇa. And even since the government's kicked out all the different groups, including ourselves, just by your books circulating, many people are becoming devotees and leaving the country to go to other temples. So actually we're still making devotees there just from the books that were distributed. And now we're investigating to try to again get legal permission, also perhaps establish something like some type of restaurant or farm community there. (break)

Prabhupāda: What news?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're trying to fix a debate in Delhi on October 27th among different scientists and ourselves.

Prabhupāda: 27th October?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This month, yes, October 27th.

Room Conversation -- October 18, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: There are other? Other occupants?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are other occupants? I don't follow your question, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: As we have taken...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Others have also taken? Yes. But we can find out what they're doing. Should Jayapatākā do these things? I think he is the proper person, not Śatadhanya. Jayapatākā is more experienced with these kind of things, legal works. In any case, we're dealing with it. Then there's also the issue of who is responsible for paying the various corporation taxes and things like that.

Prabhupāda: The occupier.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The occupier. Not the owner, not Patodiya. We are responsible.

Prabhupāda: As other occupier.

Doctor Visit and Conversation -- October 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Then don't give him. Let them live there, but...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So then the question again comes up, which I mentioned to you, that if they're paying corporation taxes and other taxes, then they become the legal tenant, and a tenant does not lose the right of tenancy at his death. His children inherit it.

Prabhupāda:. Well, what is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. So then it's not for their lifetime; it's forever.

Prabhupāda: There is no harm. They cannot mortgage or...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sublet it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They can simply live. I wanted that because he is formerly working for BBT... Work or not work, we asked him... Therefore we have given them a place to stay in right hand, and they can live, left hand, all of them. They cannot have the right to mortgage, sale, like that. That is our aim. They can live happily. This much I want. And if we give them right of proprietorship, the rascal may sell it or get out.

Room Conversation -- October 24, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So that committee formed?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That committee? Yes.

Prabhupāda: Charity...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will be forming that. Make a little legal document.

Prabhupāda: First of all make it formal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that can be done. So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, here is Smara-hari, and he's going to be leaving today for South India. We've given him the instructions, and he's the proper person. He knows that chief priest in Śrī Raṅgam temple, and first thing is he's going to find out what are the ingredients of this makara-dhvaja. Then he's going to purchase the ingredients himself, and then he's going to go to the kavirāja and give it to the Rāmānuja kavirāja and have him make it right in front of him. He will supply the ingredients so that he knows the ingredients are bona fide, first class. And he'll see that they make it in front of him.

Prabhupāda: According to the direction of the Rāmānuja...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he'll have the Rāmānuja man make it. First he'll ask, "What are the ingredients?" Then he'll go and get those ingredients, and he'll bring it to the Rāmānuja man. And the Rāmānuja man will make it.

Prabhupāda: The man must be sincere and experienced.

Room Conversation -- October 28, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So this 43,000 can be given, because it is not Society's money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's not come in our accounts, so it can be given definitely.

Prabhupāda: So this much you can do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I fully agree. And I have no objection to giving one lakh. But I'm speaking from a legal point of view. It will injure us, and I don't want to be injured.

Vrindavan De: No, I can spare some little amount of interest. I can pay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's more jeopardizing. We can't charge interest. We cannot make profit on money loaned out, as a society. It goes against the laws of India. That's the whole point. Even if we gave it in any way, it's jeopardizing.

Vrindavan De: But you can put it easily on donation account, that charge interest.

Prabhupāda: No, Overseas Bank they can give.

Room Conversation -- October 30, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: How?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A transfer from Indian Overseas Bank to her account in Bank of..., I think it's in United Bank of India, direct into her account. Her account is joint signature of herself and Vrindavan-candra.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So she is informed?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. All of them are informed. Then I've also sent a letter to the Central Bank of India—again I'm not sending it to Central Bank; I've given it to Girirāja—that when they start to get the 250 rupees a month from Indian Overseas, then we will stop sending the 250 from Central Bank of India. In other words, everything will be done from one bank, right on our land. It's a lot easier to deal with this way. It's much cleaner. Then... Let me see what else. I also sent a letter to M.M. De today. I requested him to please tell me what his bank account number is. I also... He's dealing with most of the business of Panchashil flat. According to Vrindavan-candra, M.M. deals with these matters. Apparently he has a little more legal mind. Probably he's more intelligent. Anyway...

Prabhupāda: No, who?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: M.M. De.

Room Conversation -- November 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Do you think that without finishing this business we shall go?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Without finishing the business of these, this legal business? Oh, yes, this legal business is not what would keep us here.

Prabhupāda: Then how it will... How it will be done?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean it can be executed in Māyāpur as well.

Prabhupāda: How?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Das, our friend from Calcutta, can come. It's pretty much now... It's already drafted, and... It would just have to be redrafted again on new stamp paper or the words would have to be changed. It would have to be retyped on stamp paper from Bengal side. The basic writing is...

Prabhupāda: That means unfinished despite unfinished.

Room Conversation -- November 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is very strange. I must admit I'm very surprised, very, very surprised. I think the only possible answer to it can be that the work itself is difficult work, plus there must have been some other works that either the lawyer had to do or the notary had to do, and so it just could not... I mean after all, this was very, very quickly done. When we decided that we were going to go, it was only on Monday. That means yesterday morning that we decided that we were going to leave. So I mean from yesterday morning until tonight is practically not even... It's hardly enough time to do the legal work that we wanted to do. It was a real strain. Actually it would have been very surprising if we do get it done by tonight. That would be very surprising.

Prabhupāda: I don't think. It is past nine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You don't think they'll come now. No, I also don't think. I mean it's not good etiquette to come at this hour for business. It's nearly nine-thirty, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I mean I don't think that... If you'll permit me to request them, even if they do come now, that we do it on another day, then I would prefer to do that. Oh, I hear Bhagatji. (goes and returns) So they're all here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So we can go to Māyāpur now. (laughs) So I better... First I'll have to go through all the documents and see that they're in order. Then I'll bring them in here and we'll finish this business.

Prabhupāda: Then let us go.

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So, that legal business?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Girirāja has gone into Mathurā to meet with Mr. Garg to just see that all of the drafts are in order, if everything is in order. Then hopefully tomorrow we can finish it all.

Prabhupāda: So it was argument, not that we have rejected. Upāyān cintayet prajñāḥ...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean the treatment? Yes, I have learned to take everything very philosophically, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I mean I took it that you were presenting the..., you know, presenting the whole picture to be considered.

Prabhupāda: I am now puzzled. Still, I am thinking.

Room Conversation -- November 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Hm. So?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's one point about... Actually, I simply asked him for the name of his bank and the bank account, but he doesn't seem to want to give that at this point. Seems to have some other idea. Very legally worded letter. "3) Panchashil. I do not stay there, albeit my daily visits. Once I have read somewhere, not the copy sent by you, this draft conveyance, and this is a bunkum." He calls it a bunkum. Are you familiar with that word, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I think it means like a hoax or something. "The wordings are incoherent and contradictory. The assigners, promoters, are described as overlord. The lessers, superlord, and assignees, purchasers, have been reduced to a transient resident, if not fugitive debtor. In my opinion, causes are there for criminal prosecution against the promoters. Without capable and competent lawyers' help, this legal matter should not be handled. Until then, keep it in abeyance. Your all the papers as mentioned..." I sent him a copy of the scheme, Śrīla Prabhupāda, as well as a copy of the draft... "All of your papers, as mentioned, are sent herewith back to you." He didn't choose to keep them. "While awaiting the bank's comments, I beg to remain respectfully yours, M.M. De." He says, "The enclosures are sent under ordinary post to avoid heavy postage in this cover." He decided to send them by a separate post because it would have been a few extra paisa.

Prabhupāda: Unless the bank confirms, he does not take it seriously. Is it not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's more or less what he's suggesting.

Prabhupāda: So let the bank confirm. What is the harm? Hm? The bank is not going to confirm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, the bank will do whatever we ask them to do.

Prabhupāda: Then let them confirm.

Room Conversation -- November 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Why they suppose?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I personally don't feel at this point... Frankly speaking, I don't think that this reply on his part is very good. I don't think it's proper. He's speaking about a settlement. First of all there is no settlement. The whole legal way in which he's worded this letter indicates to me that he's not taking things in a very... Seems to me he has some motives. He has no reason to doubt this scheme. That's my point. And if he's thinking that he has some kind of rights... (break) ...offices. They're very pleased. And they were especially pleased to get these fixed deposits. Immediately we gave them this six lakhs' fixed deposits, they were very happy with this. They've got about something like 350 accounts already from outsiders within a month or two. They're very, very pleased. They feel that this will become a full branch very quickly, and they have a great amount of space, and they're not at all sorry about the price that they're paying. And it's a good income for our temple.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nearly ten thousand rupees a month.

Prabhupāda: Why ten thousand?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think it's quite ten thousand. I think it's less. Eight or nine thousand. Four rupees....

Prabhupāda: No. It is... Plus interest of the money.

Page Title:Legal (Conversations)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, Mayapur
Created:07 of Mar, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=143, Let=0
No. of Quotes:143