Bali-mardana: Kṛṣṇa is benevolent, and the material nature is not.
Prabhupāda: No, material nature... Just like you don't care for government. Then you be controlled by the jail superintendent. That's all. You'll be controlled. You cannot be free. But if you deny directly the control of the government then you must be controlled by the criminal department, by force. This is your position.
Bali-mardana: Either to be controlled by love or by force.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bali-mardana: One has a choice to either be controlled by love or by force.
Prabhupāda: But love, there is no love when there is force.
Bali-mardana: No, but by Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is love. Just like you are being controlled by me. There is no force. Voluntarily, out of love... I am not paying you. Still, if I say something, immediately you do. Why? There is love. That's all.
Bali-mardana: One who actually understands the distinction, is it possible that he will still choose to be controlled by the material nature?
Prabhupāda: Yes, he has already chosen. But he's foolish. He does not know. He thinks that "I am now independent of the Supreme Lord." But because he's foolish, he cannot understand that you are not independent. You are being controlled by another agent of God. And because, although he's being controlled, he's thinking, "I am free," therefore he's in illusion. This is called illusion. Illusion means something which is not fact. That is illusion. So this materialist, the so-called scientist, he's thinking, "There is no God. We are independent." So many things, like rascal they are thinking. Foolish rascal, childish. And that is illusion. Ahaṅkāra-vimudhātmā. Therefore this very word is used, vimūḍhātmā: "befooled rascal." Actually, he's being controlled by material nature. So how to get out of this material nature? That is explained, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "As soon as that rascal surrenders unto Me, immediately he's out of control."