Devotee: I just saw... Maybe you knew the latest headlines in the newspapers today were "President Nixon is found innocent."
Prabhupāda: Oh, ācchā?
Devotee: They said he was found innocent.
Prabhupāda: In the court?
Devotee: Yes. Because, you knew about the Watergate case. He was caught...
Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda knows the story. He knows the incident. He was found innocent by who? By court?
Devotee: Yes, by the whole government. He had done some cheating and campaign making secret tape recordings against the other party.
Prabhupāda: He did? And still he is innocent?
Devotee: Yes. He paid so many millions, thousands and thousands of dollars. His party, the republican party, they put microphones and everything in the convention of the democrats and had spies and everything in order that he could find out their tricks. He had paid all these men and there were all fired.
Prabhupāda: So that is not bad because in politics you have to do that. Everyone does so. What is Nixon's fault?
Devotee: But only he got caught. And all of his men quit.
Prabhupāda: No, no, suppose you are my rival. So I wanted to know your secrecies. So I make some mechanical arrangement. That is not fault. That is not... Everyone does so. Why do you expect that he will not do that? He must do that. If you are my rival or enemy, to know your secrecy, I must endeavor to do everything. As you are doing, so I am.
Devotee: They were bribing men. They had paid them money and everything to do these things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So bribing men, everywhere it is going on.
Devotee: According to the American government it is illegal to... Each person has his own plans. And it is illegal to find out the other's. But now they said he is innocent.
Prabhupāda: Court says.
Devotee: The United States government. They had a big trial and everything. So they found tapes and everything, but there was some missing tapes. They could not directly pin him for the whole thing. He said, "I didn't know anything about it." He says, "My men were just doing it. I never told them to do it. They did it on their own, for me. They liked me so much, they were just doing it. I never paid them."
Yogeśvara: Isn't the kṣatriya qualities that he is to be trustworthy?
Prabhupāda: No. When there is political game, everyone does everything to gain his victory. In politics, these things are allowed. Just like killing, fighting, kṣatriya's fighting. That killing is allowed. But killing is not allowed generally. Kṛṣṇa has killed so many. If you take from moral point of view, He's sometimes immoral. He has killed His maternal uncle, Kaṁsa, and Śiśupāla, Śiśupāla, his cousin brother. And Balarāma killed Rukma. Once He saved him, and another time, that Aniruddha's marriage, or something like that... Balarāma killed Rukma, the brother of Rukmiṇī. They were family relatives. But there was some misunderstanding in chess playing that other party, Rukma, he was cheating by tricks. The Balarāma became so angry, they killed him. So in politics amongst the kṣatriyas, these things are not uncommon.
Devotee: But isn't that not good because the politicians nowadays, when they are running their campaign, they say so many lies and everything to the public, that "When I am elected I will do this and I will do that," and they do so many... They pay off so many people in order that they can become elected. So always the good persons are... I guess they also have to cheat in order to get in position, but usually the...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have stopped our political activities. It is not good. It will be hampering to our spiritual understanding.
Devotee: Because we will also have to do that.
Prabhupāda: If you want to dance, you cannot be shy. There is a Bengali proverb, nate vase guṇṭhana tana (?). You understand Bengali? No. That, "When you are going to dance... A girl, or a lady is supposed to dance in the platform, in the stage, and when she came, she saw thousands of people. Then she drew her veil, what is called, guṇṭhana, became little ashamed. So you are going to dance. What is the use of veiling yourself?" So similarly, when one takes part in politics, if you don't take all the tactics of politics, then you cannot gain ground.
Devotee: But more and more the people, especially in America, they are seeing how these politicians are cheating. Because every year, in every campaign, the same politician is saying, "I will do this, I will do that," and when he gets into office, he never does anything. But maybe now this time, when our Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees are running and they are showing the people what rascals... Just like Balavanta on TV, he was saying "How can these people be leader, when they are themselves permitting slaughter, drinking, smoking, having illicit sex life."
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is a fact. But why the leader? The public also drinks. They also encourage slaughterhouse. So if you say to the public that they cannot be leader, then there is no leader. They cannot find out any leader. The public will understand that "I also eat meat, I also drink, do the same thing. Why the leader should be something, saintly person? After all, he is our leader. So we are of the same character. So why the leader should be something different?" They cannot understand it.
Devotee: Therefore we must cheat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose I am thief and somebody accuses you that "He is a thief." So I don't take it seriously because I know, "I am also thief." Means these appeal, that does not appeal because "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If everyone is thief, if you point out somebody that "He is thief, he cannot be trusted," then he knows that "I am also thief. It is not a big problem. I am also thief." Unless the whole public is sinless, he cannot appreciate a sinless leader. Care care mastado bhāi (?). This is natural. If I am thief, so what is the use of accusing you by other, "He is also thief." You'll take that "We all are thieves, all cousin brothers; so why this man should be only accused?"
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it not a vicious circle, though. Without a pure leader, they cannot be pure themselves.
Prabhupāda: But they cannot understand. The vicious circle, they will not be able to understand. Because he is also vicious.
Devotee: Therefore just like Kṛṣṇa during the battle of Kurukṣetra, he told Arjuna to do so many things. He told Yudhiṣṭhira to lie. When he said, "Aśvatthāmā has been killed," he said Aśvatthāmā, the elephant, he said the elephant...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that was a tactics. So...
Devotee: And also when Karṇa... Arjuna killed Karṇa when he was off his chariot.
Prabhupāda: The difficulty is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Better you keep yourself ideal character that people can see that "Here is an ideal group of men." Otherwise, in politics... They are feeling the necessity of an honest leader, but they are themself dishonest, they people. So when you point out that "This leader is dishonest," they do not very much appreciate. There is a story in this connection I will tell you, that one man was drunkard. So his friend said, "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father also drinks." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "My mother also drinks." "Oh, she will also go to hell." In this way, all the family members, they scrutinizingly studying, that all of them were drunkards. You see? Then the man who was accused of drinking, he said, "If everyone is going to hell, then hell is heaven. (laughter) Because my father is going there, mother is going there, my brother is going there, I shall go there. It is heaven. Where is hell?"
Devotee: Heaven is where all my friends are.
Prabhupāda: So this is the position. As soon as you point out, "This man is dishonest," and you scrutinize, everyone is dishonest, then where is dishonesty? It is all honesty. Because if the whole business is dishonesty, so there is no question of honesty? Let it go on. That is the public opinion. Why one should be unnecessarily honest? If the whole world is dishonest, and the dishonest world is going on, then where is the harm? What is the use of becoming... The same thing: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss."
Jyotirmayī: That is exactly what people are saying now. They say "What's the use of being organized and good and sane? Everybody is dishonest now."
Bhagavān: We have to give them a place to go where they can come if they want.
Prabhupāda: Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja gave Kali four places. He could not find out. First of all he gave him four places, that "These four places you can go." But he could not find out such place. So he was embarrassed. So now there is no question of finding out. Everywhere you go, the same four principles. Formerly, it was very difficult to find out a place where these things are going on. Now everywhere you go, these four things are main principles of life. So therefore they cannot very much appreciate these prohibitory principles, that "What is wrong there?"
Devotee: It is just the opposite now. Now there is no place where Mahārāja Parīkṣit can go to find out a spiritual atmosphere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that "This is denying the primary necessities of life." Rāyarāma, Rāyarāma. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life. Illicit sex, intoxication... He was first-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left.