Malcolm: But a number of people over a certain size make a goal by the number of people.
Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that?
Pradyumna: When a number of people think in a certain way?
Malcolm: No. The number of people make the goal not of them, but of the number.
Paramahaṁsa: Mass. Mass opinion usually forms society.
Malcolm: Not... No, not mass opinion. Not the, not the involvement of the people, but the number of the people.
Prabhupāda: The millions and trillions number...
Śyāmasundara: By unanimous opinion, by unanimous pursuit of some goal, that becomes the common goal.
Paramahaṁsa: Fashion. Fashion?
Prabhupāda: No, therefore I say...
Malcolm: No, no. Number... I know, I... That when a number of people become beyond a certain size, that in order for that size to maintain, there becomes a code of written law whose existence is to preserve the number, and it becomes the goal of the people, and it is the goal of number and not of the people. And the people I see...
Prabhupāda: The people are numberless. Therefore the goal should be numberless? People are numberless. We cannot count. It is not possible. Therefore the goal should be also numberless?
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us that actually the amount of people in the world has nothing to do with the form of education. Simply the... For example, if everyone in the world was Kṛṣṇa conscious, then where would there be a question of overpopulation? Because there would be harmony throughout society because the center of the society would be Kṛṣṇa. But unfortunately, due to the overpopulation, we have so many different goals, different interests, and therefore there's continual clash. So there's nothing against overpopulation as long as people are raised in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Malcolm: Is overpopulation, then, a more important problem?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, for example, even in animal society, there is more animals, there's more insects, there's more birds than human society. But there's no question... They have no starvation. They have no nuclear warfare. Because they live as they're, as Kṛṣṇa has meant them to be, as their karma dictates. But in our situation we are meant to understand Kṛṣṇa. This, the goal of human life, is to use our developed consciousness to serve God. But unfortunately, since we misuse this for selfish motives, therefore we have descended lower than animals. Therefore we have not even the simple harmony that animal life has. Therefore we have mass warfare. Therefore we have greed, economic distress and pollution. All these things are caused simply because we have not used our human life for understanding Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: I think what you are saying, in a sense, is that generally the people are innocent. They grow up... And the goals of life are forced upon them, sort of, and actually that is not, the real goal is still missing.
Malcolm: They would say, yes, that there is... The number is too many.
Śyāmasundara: The number of goals?
Malcolm: No, the number of people to support a system of return.
Śyāmasundara: Return to the real goal.
Malcolm: To the real goal. They feel oppressed into supporting the number system because it's...
Śyāmasundara: Due to a larger number of people, is it possible to return all these people to the real goal?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As there is medicine for certain disease, if, in that particular disease, the prescribed medicine is given, then the disease will be cured. Is it not? Medical science, they have discovered medicine for a certain type of disease. So if the diseased man takes that medicine, particular, then he'll be cured. Similarly, if people take what is the actual goal of life by philosophy and logic, then their goal of life will be one. He must agree to take it just like the diseased man must agree to take the medicine. Then he's cured.