Prabhupāda: ...and standing naked, that those who are fond of nudie-ism, they can get in next life. "All right, you stand naked for many years." This is the punishment. Human society, naked, that is their punishment.
Jayatīrtha: And during the winter they even lose their leaves...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jayatīrtha: During the winter, when it's coldest, they lose their leaves.
Prabhupāda: The trees are taken to be the most tolerant. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. There is an extreme example of tolerance, this tree life.
Dayānanda: In one of the purports in Bhāgavatam you mention that first comes humility, then nonviolence and then tolerance.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dayānanda: Is it also mentioned that in other places in our śāstra?
Prabhupāda: There are many places. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...is given for practicing God consciousness, and they have become advanced civilized, they are cultivating nudie-ism. Is it not? Nudie-ism. So the punishment is that "All right, you become nudie, you remain standing in one place, for five thousand years." (laughter) That is right. The trees live up till five thousand years. They live.
Viṣṇujana: Prabhupāda? But they argue that if God wanted us to wear clothes He would have made us with clothes. But He made us without clothes, so...
Prabhupāda: The thing is that here material world means that whatever you want, you have to work for it. That is material world. Things are there, but you have to work for it. In the spiritual world there is no need of working. You get all necessities. That is the difference.
Viṣṇujana: Yeah, we could say, "If God wanted you to have food, then He would have made you with food too." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Viṣṇujana: They say, "If God wanted us to have clothes, that He would have made us with clothes." So if He wanted you to have food, then He would have made you with food. Why do you have to go out and get your food? Similarly, you have to go out and get your clothes.
Prabhupāda: No, this is called... What is the definition in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa? Avidyā-karma-samjñānyā tṛtīya śaktir iṣyate. Avidyā...
- viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā proktā
- kṣetrajñākhyā tathā parā
- avidyā-karma-samjñānya
- tṛtīya śaktir iṣyate
- (CC Madhya 6.154)
The three divisions of God's energies. One energy is His spiritual energy; another energy—these living entities, they are also spiritual; another energy—material energy, where there is ignorance and work. That is material energy. In the material energy everyone is ignorant and they have to work. Karma. Karma means working. Avidyā-karma-samjñānya tṛtīya. So here you have to work. Without working, you cannot get your... The things are ready, but you will have to work. So they have increased the working capability. That is civilization. Just like in the prisonhouse you have to work. Eh? So they think this working is civilization. This is avidya. So therefore they have created more work. From early morning, five o'clock, till ten o'clock, simply working. They do not know that "This working is our punishment." But because ignorant, they think that "Working is life." This is called ignorance. He does not know, "This working is my punishment. How to get out of this work?" No. To increase the work more, complicate, that is civilization. This is called avidyā. Avidyā-karma-samjñānya. Our tendency is not to work but get things. Therefore he has asked that question. Because he has to get cloth by working, therefore he asking, "Why God has not created?" That means tendency is not to work. That is spiritual tendency. Everything, necessities, automatically available. That is our... Therefore as soon as one man becomes rich, he does not work. He gets his thing by working others. The tendency is there, to retire from work. They go to a solitary place. They retire. They do not go out. Weekly, at least, they want to stop worker, working. So why this tendency? He does not want to die. He does not want to work. This is spiritual. Why man should work like... Therefore real civilization is that minimize work. Minimize work, save time, and go back to your spiritual life. That is civilization. And this is not civilization, to get the necessities of life, sense gratification, and work like hog and dog. That is condemned. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭan kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This human life is not meant for working so hard for sense gratification which are done by the dogs and hogs. Human life is meant: tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). Human life is for tapasya. Why tapasya? Yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed: their existence will be purified. Then you will get unlimited pleasure. Yato brahma-saukhyam anantam. We are seeking after unlimited pleasure. So that is not possible in this material life. And we are thinking, "By working very hard, like hogs and dogs, we will get happiness." This is... The dogs and hogs, they work day and night for searching out where is stool, and as soon as he gets stool, he becomes very strong and stout. Then sex. Never mind, the mother, sister, daughter. This is hog life. Therefore this particular animal has been... Kaṣṭan kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). Viḍ-bhujāṁ means this hog, stool-eater. So this human life is not meant for imitating the stool-eater hogs. This is in the Bhāgavata. But they have imitated this, "We shall work. Work like hard work, hoglike, and there is no discrimination of food. All sorts of nonsense we shall eat, and in this way we shall get strong and have sex life. Never mind whether he is mother, sister, or daughter. It doesn't matter." This is the modern civilization. And that is warned in the Bhāgavata, "No, this is not life." But this has become actually the life, modern civilized life. Therefore it is called avidya, not education, contra-education. (break) ...says, make life very comfortable. Just produce little food grains, and there are fruits. Even if you don't produce food grain, you can live on fruits and milk. No. The milk source? Cut down their throat, cows, and eat the meat. There is no need of food grain or fruit. This is civilization. And thus becoming duṣkṛtina, all the brain is being utilized for sinful life. Duṣkṛtina means intelligence applied for sinful life. Kṛti, kṛti means meritorious. But their merit has been applied for acting sinfully. Therefore they are called duṣkṛtina. (break) "...by the orders of Christ we shall commit all kinds of sin, and Christ has taken contract. He will take our sin." That's all. Is it not?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Do they not say like that?
Devotee: That's what they say.