Prabhupāda: (break) ...planet, Vaikuṇṭha planet, and Kṛṣṇa comes to show us the ideal place in Vṛndāvana. The sample Vṛndāvana is here. So why do you say it is utopian?
Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) ideal. The material world isn't very ideal.
Prabhupāda: That is the imitation of the ideal.
Jayatīrtha: Some people are trying to make it ideal, trying to make this place ideal.
Prabhupāda: There must be something ideal; otherwise how they will try to make it ideal? They are trying to be immortal. Unless there is something immortal, how they...