Prabhupāda: So how we are independent? Did Mr. Freud not die? When prakṛti, nature, kicked on his face, he immediately died. So how he's independent? These rascals have created all troubles. The so-called rascal philosophers, scientists, politicians, they have created all troubles. He's completely dependent on nature, on the laws of nature, and still he says, "I am independent. I have grown up." What you have grown up? You have grown up as a great fool, that's all. You have not grown up to be intelligent. You have grown up a great rascal, that's all. So refute them in this way, then you'll be preacher. So what is your argument about humanity?
Dayānanda: Well, if God is, as you say...
Prabhupāda: God is the father.
Dayānanda: If God is meant to be propitiated, then why is it that we have so many things for our enjoyment? You say that everything is for God's enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, God has given you enjoyment, but you cannot enjoy yourself, alone. There are other sons, they will also enjoy. If you interfere with other sons, then you'll be punished. God's son is the lamb, and you let him enjoy, you also enjoy. But if you interfere with his right, then you'll be punished. That is God's law. Sarva-yoniṣu, God is not only your father, he's father of the lamb also. So if by your brute force you want to kill the poor lamb, then you'll be punished. This is natural. You have got your food, you produce your foodgrain and you eat. Why should you eat another animal? God says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), you must eat to become strong. But that does not mean you'll eat another brother. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1), whatever He has designated, you eat like that. You are human being, you can produce food. You grow foodstuffs, rice, wheat, fruit, flowers, vegetables. That is allowed. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, you produce anna, why should you kill an animal? And offer it to Kṛṣṇa, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). He never says that "You give Me an animal." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. So you produce patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam, and offer to Kṛṣṇa, and then take.
Dayānanda: In our experience we have no understanding how this can be practical, because we think that meat is good for our strength. How can we be strong?
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are not human being, you are animal. If you cannot produce your food, uncivilized animals, they cannot produce their food. But you are given the chance of becoming human being, if you cannot produce your food, if you do not know how to cook food, how to offer it, then you are not human being. You are animal. When the uncivilized man in the jungle, they did not know how to produce food, they used to kill animals. So if you want to remain in the same uncivilized status of life, then where you are human being? You have got greater intelligence, you produce your food. Why should you kill animal like the uncivilized jungle men? Your action is just like jungle man, and you are claiming to be civilized man.
Nava-yauvana: They are thinking that they are the proprietor.