Robert Gouiran: ...one month. I should be very glad to know where I should go for my second trip. If you could inform me.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you come to Vṛndāvana. We have got nice place there, and we shall accommodate you. Real spiritual life you'll find in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa. We have got places... In Navadvīpa also we have got very big building, and Vṛndāvana. These are recognized.
Robert Gouiran: But where is it?
Prabhupāda: Actually... First of all, thing is that what is your point of view for visiting these Aurobindos and Maharshi Raman and what others?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Pondicherry.
Prabhupāda: Pondicherry. That is all Indian.
Robert Gouiran: And Tirumalaya (?).
Prabhupāda: Tiru... One...?
Robert Gouiran: Tirumalaya.
Prabhupāda: You have been there?
Robert Gouiran: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Tirumalaya.
Robert Gouiran: Arunacalam.
Prabhupāda: Arunacalam, yes. So you visited the temple?
Robert Gouiran: Yes, of course.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice.
Robert Gouiran: I saw it. And the red...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Robert Gouiran: ...the red, sacred mountain.
Prabhupāda: White?
Guru-gaurāṅga: The red, sacred...
Robert Gouiran: The red, sacred mountain. Arunacalam.
Prabhupāda: Arunacalam. Oh, yes. The temple is on the mountain.
Robert Gouiran: No, just at the foot of the mountain, on the east, exactly on the east. And the Maharshi Ashram is on the south.
Prabhupāda: So you stayed there for some time?
Robert Gouiran: Well, between Pondicherry and there for one month, four weeks.
Prabhupāda: So who is the...
Robert Gouiran: Then I have to go back to so many places.
Prabhupāda: So what was your achievement by visiting these places?
Robert Gouiran: Uh, it's a little difficult to explain, but I made a series of personal experiences which convinced me of the existence of the occult plane. So I could get some contact with what I call the occult plane or whatever you call it. That means that the way how we could get the transparency and then to go where we have to go.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice, beginning of spiritual understanding.
Robert Gouiran: So I left them to let things go and to go with the...
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that you went there for some spiritual enlightenment. Is it not?
Robert Gouiran: Spiritual achievement?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guru-gaurāṅga: Enlightenment.
Robert Gouiran: Enlightenment. Of course. And I got the first...
Yogeśvara: Taste.
Robert Gouiran: The first small light of this enlightenment.
Prabhupāda: That I am asking you. What is that light?
Robert Gouiran: It's not complete yet. It's not complete yet.
Prabhupāda: No. Whatever you have received, that I want to know. Then I can understand where you stand on the spiritual platform.
Robert Gouiran: Where...?
Yogeśvara: If you can explain that little bit that you have understood...
Prabhupāda: (aside) Not now.
Yogeśvara: ...then he will know better what your position is on the spiritual platform.
Robert Gouiran: Yes. I should like to do so. Uh, I think, I understood that we could... It is difficult to explain in English.
Prabhupāda: You can speak in French. He'll translate.
Robert Gouiran: (French)
Guru-gaurāṅga: He has learnt how to be taken into things without being taken by things. That is to say that he has just let himself go, and from that letting himself go, he's been able to see things transparently. He's been able to see through things.
Prabhupāda: So what does he see?
Guru-gaurāṅga: (French)
Robert Gouiran: (French)
Guru-gaurāṅga: (translating) "I've seen that there is the need, I have felt that there is the need to become in harmony with things which will take me where I need to go."
Robert Gouiran: (French)
Guru-gaurāṅga: "And to try and work and find out the true path."
Robert Gouiran: I try to work this intuition, to make it stronger, in order to feel where I have to go and to participate...
Prabhupāda: So where is the difficulty...? What is the difficulty in the position you are now, at present?
Robert Gouiran: Good question. The difficulty is that I lost the thought of this transparency by a lot of criss-crossed swords which make a sort of block, and I have very, very strong difficulties now here to feel intuitively the occult plane. And I am back in the reality...
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Coming back now into the West, he feels so much difficulty to still be sensitive, to have this intuition of the spiritual plane.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: He says that there are like criss-crosses, like swords blocking...
Prabhupāda: So one thing is that he's feeling difficulty in the material atmosphere of the West. Is it the fact?
Robert Gouiran: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is good.
Robert Gouiran: And the...
Guru-gaurāṅga: (French)
Robert Gouiran: (French)
Guru-gaurāṅga: (Translating) "Too much thinking, I do too much thinking."
Prabhupāda: Anxiety.
Robert Gouiran: Too much information.
Prabhupāda: Not thinking, but anxiety.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Robert Gouiran: Exact. Yes. It's hard because if there is no anxiety these sword does not stay in the mind. They just pass.
Prabhupāda: This anxiety there must be when we are in a different atmosphere. Just like we heard there was a plane crash. So we are travelling by plane. So as soon as we get on the plane, that anxiety is there. So the anxiety is caused on my boarding airplane. So if I do not board airplane, then that anxiety is nowhere. So anyone who is existing in this material world, there must be anxieties. There must be anxieties. Exactly, the same example, that as soon as I... It may be very nice plane; it doesn't matter. But I know that it is unsafe. At any moment it can crash. Therefore there is anxieties. So similarly, we are, so long we are in the material platform, we cannot avoid anxieties.
Robert Gouiran: Yes. It's a little... Because what I felt is this, when we could...
Prabhupāda: First of all we should understand this, that we are in, on a platform. That is called material platform. So, so long you'll remain on the material platform—material platform means the bodily concept of life—the anxiety will never be stopped. First of all let us understand why there is anxiety. The example is given: because I am a being of the land, artificially, when I go up on a plane, on the sky, this is the cause of my anxiety. So I am a spirit being, I am a spirit soul. So long I'll live in material conception of life, we cannot avoid anxiety. This is not possible. This is the problem.
Robert Gouiran: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: I am a spirit soul. So my natural abode for living is spiritual world. So so long I am in the material world. It may be... The same example. I may be on the 747 or DC-10 or 10C-10 or this or that nonsense, I must be in anxiety. So that is the problem. And what is that material problem? Material life means you have got this material body and you do not wish to die. The anxiety on the plane is: "Because I may die..." That means you do not wish to die. That is my anxiety. If there is plane crash, then I may die. And therefore my anxiety. If I am assured that I'll not die, then where is that anxiety? The anxiety is that I do not wish to die, but death is there. So that death is there either on the plane or on the ground. You cannot avoid death. Why I cannot avoid death? Because I have got this body which is perishable. Therefore if I want to be anxietyless freely, I must try for that thing by which I do not get again a body like this. Then I'll be anxiety-free. Even a small bird, if he sits here, he'll do like this-anxiety. You give him something to eat, but he'll not dare to come near you because he has anxiety that you may capture him. He knows that. Therefore the material life means four things: We, we require to eat something; we want a place for sleeping; we want to gratify our senses; and we want to defend from anxiety. This is material life.
Robert Gouiran: And may...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Robert Gouiran: May I... I agree completely because I felt that when I could get a contact with the spiritual plane, I felt the protection. I felt that nothing could happen to me, not happen. As long as I was in touch...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Robert Gouiran: ...with this plane, nothing could happen because I felt I was in harmony. And when I went back, I took the plane, exactly as you say, at Colombo, I went by Colombo, and there was a storm, terrible storm when the plane took off, and the lady beside me was very frightened, and I was so enlightened at the time that I told her, "We are protected. I am protected. So if you are beside me you are also protected. So nothing could happen." And it was an extraordinary feeling. In French we call that providence. You know that?
Prabhupāda: Providence? Yes. That... When we are in danger, we remember the providence, but when we are happy we forget providence. (laughter)
Robert Gouiran: (French, "I didn't understand.")
Guru-gaurāṅga: (French)
Robert Gouiran: No, because I felt that when we reach this point, we, we are, we get to...
Prabhupāda: Anyway...
Robert Gouiran: (French)
Prabhupāda: At the time of danger, we remember providence or God. That is also good. So that is a Hindi proverb that duhkse sab hari bhaje, sukse bhaje kol, sukse ajar hari bhaje, duhka ase hay(?). Means "When one is in danger, he remembers God, and when he is in happiness he forgets God. Therefore if he remembers God always, then where is danger?" So our business is to become God conscious. Then there will be no anxiety. So we are preaching that, I, here, that you become God conscious. Death is there. You cannot save yourself. Either you are on the land or on the plane, death will be there. You must be prepared for the death. But if by practicing remembering God, even at the time of death you continue to remember God, then your life is successful. Death will be there. You cannot stop that. Ante nārāyaṇa-smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). So if at the time of death we can remember God, then our life is successful. Therefore, before death we shall mold our life in such a way that always thinking of God. Man-manā bhava mad... Satataṁ cintayanto mām. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām (BG 9.14). This is life. We should always remember God. Then we must know who is God otherwise how can I remember? If I have no idea of God, then how can I remember? So we must know what is God. We must remember always God. We must become a devotee of God. In that way we can save ourself from the anxiety. Otherwise it is not possible. Because a God-conscious man, he knows that "I'll die. Everyone will die; I'll also die." But his concern is: "At the time of death, I shall remember Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Then his life is successful. Death we cannot avoid. There must be. Tyaktvā deham. We have to give up this body. But the question is how I shall give up this body. The cats, dogs, they also give up their body, and I'll also have to give up my body. But shall I give up the body like cats and dogs, or as human being? That is the process. Therefore one should, a human being should prepare himself how to give up this body. That is humanity. Kṛṣṇa says... Find out this verse. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9).