Paramahaṁsa: To assume that there is no God is basically nonscientific.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Because they're denying an entire field of study.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are rascals.
Yadunandana: The reason why the western world is so much involved in science is because the religions that have been presented here in the West have cheated the people economically...
Prabhupāda: No, why cheated? The Christian religion says God created.
Devotee (4): But the followers do not practice this idea. The original idea is very nice.
Prabhupāda: No, they became over-intelligent by so-called education.
Bahulāśva: Over-intelligent?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: How is that?
Prabhupāda: Over-intelligence means rascal. Intelligence is good, but over-intelligence means rascal.
Bahulāśva: How does that happen, when he becomes over-intelligent?
Prabhupāda: Over-intelligent, it is sarcastically said. More than intelligent.
Bahulāśva: Oh. Speculative.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (4): What I meant to say is that the directors of these religions like the Pope and so many things, they themselves have committed so many abominable activities that people have said, "Well, why should we stay with religion? These religious leaders themselves are eating meat, they have prostitution, they are cheating the people, taking their money, living very nicely..."
Prabhupāda: But that is not religion. Why you accept the Pope as religious?
Devotee (4): No, we don't accept...
Prabhupāda: You reject. You reject. Come to us. Why do you accept these rascals as religious? That is your fault. Why should you stick to them? They cannot teach what is real religion, so let us give you.
Paramahaṁsa: In Germany they say that's throwing the baby out with the dirty bath water.
Prabhupāda: Throwing? (laughter)
Paramahaṁsa: They wash the baby, and the water's dirty. So they throw the water out with the baby.
Prabhupāda: Throwing out the baby?
Devotee (4): With the bath water.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they're assuming because there's some irreligion amongst the so-called religious leaders, therefore they reject all religion.
Prabhupāda: No.
Paramahaṁsa: Scientists, I mean.
Prabhupāda: No, why? Because you have received some counterfeit coin, therefore you should reject all coins?
Paramahaṁsa: That's the logic.
Prabhupāda: That is not logic; that is foolishness.
Paramahaṁsa: Right.
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. You must be experienced, that "There are counterfeit coins. I shall be very clever, intelligent, to see before accepting any genuine coin." That should be your conclusion. Not that I have met one or two counterfeit coins, therefore I conclude there is no genuine coin.
Bahulāśva: Just like in the old days when they would get a gold coin, they would bite it with their teeth to see if it was real gold, make a test. (break)
Baradrāj: ...false, they must also conclude that there's something true. Because that is relative. (break)
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the basis for scientific rejection of religious dogma is that in the Medieval era in...
Prabhupāda: Religious..., not dogma. Just like in Christian religion it is said that "God created this." So this is a fact, but it is not properly explained. And neither the followers understood how to explain, third-class men. So therefore they should accept, that's all. They should accept. Just like one thing, sweetmeat. A child is tasting. So if the child wants how it is made, so he has no power to understand. Therefore he should be simply ordered, "You simply eat. That's all." So in the Bible it is like that. And therefore it is strictly ordered that "You should follow." The things are there but they are not explained because they were third-class men. Otherwise why the commandment was, "Thou shalt not kill," and they killed first of all Jesus Christ? So what class of men they were? All third-class, fourth-class men. How they will understand? Now people have become, by education, advanced...
Bahulāśva: We should go this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because they have these sprinklers on here.
Prabhupāda: Now they should come to big dictionary. This is Vedic. The Vedic truth is there, but it is not properly explained because the men were fourth-class. Now the people have become advanced. They should take to Vedic literature. Then they will understand how God created. But it was not explained because the people, they were living in the desert and shepherds and all fourth-class, fifth-class men. And now they, these first-class men, all advanced men, they are trying to adjust the tenth-class ideas, and therefore they are becoming rejecting, that "It is all useless." Now they should come to first-class understanding in the Vedas.
Paramahaṁsa: As a matter of fact there's a very famous quote from Christ...
Prabhupāda: I think Christ said that there are many things to be spoken but...
Paramahaṁsa: "My father's house has many rooms, but I cannot tell you of it now."
Prabhupāda: Because they were fourth-class, fifth-class men. They will not understand. Therefore it is taken, "dogmas." The modern students, they are advanced in education, and these things are not explained. And besides that, their education is atheistic. Therefore they are trying to reject religion.
Nalinī-kaṇṭha: They say you cannot study Veda because Christ said that there is no other way than himself.
Prabhupāda: Because they are fourth-class, unless he says like that, how they will stick? They were not intelligent men. Just like Lord Buddha also said, "There is no God." "There is no God," but he is God himself.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the followers of Lord Buddha are less intelligent than the followers of...
Prabhupāda: "Less" not. They are atheist class. So they will not understand what is God. So he said, "There is no God. You just hear me and become nonviolent." So his idea was, "Let this rascal first of all become nonviolent. Then they will be pure, and then they will understand."
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Nectar of Devotion you explain that there are three classes of devotees. And you say that the third-class devotee, he has belief but he cannot explain or give any support.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Bahulāśva: This is like Christian...?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: They believe that there is God.
Prabhupāda: If you believe there is God, that is sufficient. That is sufficient. But now they, being advanced in education, they want to know how God is there. There is no explanation. Therefore they reject it.
Jayādvaita: They try to explain scientifically what's in the Bible.
Prabhupāda: That science is rascaldom. So how they will be able? Because the whole thing is rascaldom, how they will explain God? Those who are actually advanced scientists, they have accepted. "There must be God," they say.
Jayadwaita: But otherwise the rascals, they try and explain scientifically. They come to the conclusion...
Prabhupāda: Yes, what is their science? Whole science is rascaldom. Just like they have never seen what is there in the planet, and they are concluding, "There is no life." You see? So they are all rascals. Maybe one or two like that gentleman who says that "No, there is God. There is grace."
Bahulāśva: So Prabhupāda, you said belief is enough?
Prabhupāda: Yes, for the noneducated rascal, belief is the... That is required, blind belief. That is good.
Bahulāśva: Blind faith.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: But to become an advanced devotee, do you have to have knowledge?
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, catur-vidhā bhajante mām...
Jayādvaita: Janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna.
Prabhupāda: Sukṛtinaḥ arjuna. Jñānī... What is called?
Devotee (5): Ārto jijñāsur...
Prabhupāda: Ah. No, this first word, distress, ārtaḥ, ārtaḥ. Artaḥ, arthārthī, jñānī and jijñāsuḥ. So some innocent man, when he is distressed, he has belief in God. So he approaches God, "God, I am distressed. Kindly help me." He is simply on faith. That is good. And jñānī means he wants to know actually what is God. Then his enquiry is advancing.
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes philosophers make a distinction between knowledge and a belief. They say you can believe in something, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily know that thing which you believe in.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's fact. Therefore for the neophytes, less intelligent, they should believe. That is the only way, viśvāsa. So generally mass of people they are not so educated. They should believe.