Karandhara: They say we're just dreamers.
Prabhupāda: Dreamer?
Karandhara: Dreamers. That we make up fantasies about God and heaven, but actually,
Prabhupāda: Why fancies? You have no brain to understand; therefore you say, "fancy"
Karandhara: Well, their common ground of objectivity is what they can perceive with the senses.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can sense with the senses. You perceive with the senses the sand, but who has made the sand? You have not made. Why you are so fool that you don't understand this? This sand... Here is a perception, direct perception. This water, vast water-direct perception. Who has made it?
Karandhara: Well, they say, "If it was made by God, we'd be able to see him just like the sand."
Prabhupāda: Yes, but you have to get the eyes. That I say. Because you are blind, you have cataract, I have to operate. You'll see. You'll see. You come to treatment. Therefore the śāstra says, "Go to guru and be treated and try to understand." But how you can see with your blind eyes, cataract eyes?
Karandhara: Well, that vision, that seeing, is supramundane. They only consider the mundane vision.
Prabhupāda: Yes, supramundane, everything is supramundane. Because... How do you know that there is nothing in the sky? Now you say it is vacant. So your eyes is deficient. It is not vacant. There are innumerable planets, but you cannot see. You cannot see. You are blind. Therefore, because it is not in your power to see, you have to hear from me. "Yes, there are millions of stars there." You have to accept it. You cannot see. But because you cannot see does not mean that it is vacant. It is deficiency of your senses.
Karandhara: Well, they will admit that, but they say, "Still, we cannot... Even though we are ignorant of some things, we still can't accept what we can't see."
Prabhupāda: Why? If you are ignorant, you have to accept.
Karandhara: Because what we're told may be wrong.
Prabhupāda: May be wrong, that is your misfortune. But the process is that where your senses cannot approach, you have to hear from authority. That is the process. But if you don't approach authority, if you approach a cheater, that is your misfortune. But the process is, where your senses cannot act, you have to approach authority. That is the process.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they want experimental knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is experimental.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say, "It cannot be proved."
Prabhupāda: No, why not proved? Just like I gave you the... this water, this sand, it is practical. Now you must know somebody has made it.
Karandhara: Well, the difficulty is, in a group of atheists, you can't prove God no matter what you say.
Prabhupāda: No, atheists, kick them on their face. Atheists, they are... Those who are reasonable, that everything see, that somebody has made. So this sand is also made by somebody, the water is also made by somebody, the sky is also made by somebody. Now you find out who is that somebody. That is knowledge.
Dr. Wolfe: They do not want to transcend the limits. They do not want to transcend the limits.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of transcending, practical. Everything you see, it is made by somebody. The stick is made by somebody. The cloth is made by somebody. So this must be made by somebody.
Dr. Wolfe: But they would say, "Present me the somebody so that I..." They would say, "Present to me the somebody so that I can see him."
Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll present you. So you have to take training from me. You have to make your eyes to see Him.
Dr. Wolfe: We want to.
Prabhupāda: That is the... Yes. But if you refuse to be treated, if you don't go to the physician, then how you'll be? You are blind now. There is cataract. Now you have to treat in a surgical operation. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This is the injunction.
Karandhara: You see, that step requires faith.
Prabhupāda: Not faith, practical.
Karandhara: Initially it must be, there must be faith in the guru.
Prabhupāda: Practical. If you want to learn something, you must to go the expert. That is not faith; it is a fact. You cannot learn anything by yourself. That is not possible.
Bali Mardana: If someone is actually sincere, can he be cheated or will he always get a bona fide guru?
Prabhupāda: No, if he is sincere he'll get. Yes. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Guru and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is within you. As soon as He sees that you are sincere, He'll give you the right person.
Bali Mardana: So if you are not completely sincere, you might get a Guru Maharaji.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bali Mardana: If you're not completely sincere, you might get someone else.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you want to be cheated, you go to the cheater. That's all. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Kṛṣṇa is intelligent, superintelligent. If you are a cheater, He'll cheat you. He'll cheat you. First-class cheat, Kṛṣṇa. But if you're actually sincere, then He'll give you the right thing. That is stated in the Bhag..., mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: (BG 15.15) "Everything is coming from Me: smṛtiḥ, remembrance, and forgetfulness." If you are a cheater, Kṛṣṇa will give you such intelligence, you'll forget Kṛṣṇa forever.
Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, so it is so, "Birds of a feather flock together." The cheaters flock together.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Birds of the same feather flock together."
Karandhara: The thing is that our philosophy is as supportable as theirs, but because they are in control they have the dominance.
Prabhupāda: Who has dominance?
Karandhara: The atheists.
Prabhupāda: Atheists? (laughs) One kick of māyā, he's finished. (laughter) All dominance. One this kick his dominance all finished, in one second. (laughter) No dominance. That is māyā. They are under control, but thinking that "We are free." That is called māyā, that is called māyā. They are under full control but they are thinking, "We are free." That is māyā. Mohinī, mohinīṁ śritāḥ. What is that verse? Āsurīṁ mohinīm?
Hṛdayānanda: Rākṣasīm. Moghāśā mogha,
Prabhupāda: Prakṛtiṁ mohinīm. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). Because they are bewildered, all their hopes will be frustrated. Moghāśāḥ. Because they are rascals, āsurīm, atheists, all their hopes will be frustrated. This is stated. And that is being done. They are making so big, big plan; now it is going to be frustrated. Just see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still, they don't want to come to their senses.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal means that however kick him on his face, still, he'll insist. That is rascal. Rascal means that. They'll never take good lesson. That is rascal. And sensible means he takes good lesson. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). And why they remain rascal? Because they are duṣkṛtinaḥ, very, very sinful. Very, very sinful. Don't you see? They are maintaining slaughterhouse. They are maintaining brothel. They are ruining everyone's life by sense gratification. These are all sinful activities. Therefore they remain rascal forever. They cannot improve. Because they are so sinful, they have to suffer, go to the darkest region. They'll have to become worms of the stool. That is awaiting them. But they do not know how things are going on. They are thinking, "We are now safe. We are safe." That is foolishness. That is rascaldom. So you are now feeling all right?
Paramahaṁsa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rascal means that... You know the story, that Kālidāsa, a great poet, he was a great rascal. So... It is a long story. So he was sitting on the branch of a tree and cutting. So some gentleman: "Why you are cutting? You'll fall down." "No, no, I'll not fall down." But when he fell down, then he went to that gentleman, "How did you know, sir, that I shall fall down?" Then they concluded, "Here is a rascal number one." (laughter) "Here is a rascal number one." They do not know that they are going to hell. That is rascaldom. By their so-called scientific advancement, philosophy, education, they are going to hell. That they do not know. Therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. This is the definition of rascaldom: one who does not know where he is going. If somebody goes in this way straight, and you say "Don't go!" "No! Why shall I not go?" He's rascal. (laughter) He's rascal. And the another rascal, "Yes, yes, you can go, it is all right." Yata mata tata patha. "As many ways you manufacture, it is all right. You can go this way." He's another rascal. This is going on.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How do we bring them to their senses?
Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious and everything will be solved. How we are speaking? Because we have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti, as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, all this māyā, misconception, will go. You'll become right person, in knowledge. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to become perfect man. Because there is guidance, the perfect guidance, so he becomes perfect. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21). (break) This is the statement in Bhāgavata. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram: (SB 7.5.30) "Because they cannot control their senses, therefore they are making progress towards the darkest region of hell." Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita: "And repeatedly chewing the chewed." They make one plan. It is frustrated. Again make another plan. That is frustrated. Again make another plan. But they will never agree to accept that these plans are all useless. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Repeatedly chewing the chewed, chewing the chewed. The same woman, same vagina, and that is their pleasure. Bas. At home, and in street or nightclub and theater—the same vagina. That's all.