Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When did civilization begin? Well, the first men, they were uncivilized. Then, by little bit of intelligence they developed different types of tools and weapons. When, they have no date, though.
Prabhupāda: Therefore his civilization—so much, that's all. His standard of civilization, this much. (break) … no tree, even a small tree is considered big tree. (break) Man came from ape, so why man is not coming now from ape? Hm?
Harikeśa: It only happened once, and that was enough to start the whole thing.
Prabhupāda: Only once.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It had to happen at least twice.
Prabhupāda: That is another rascaldom. We see the flowers and fruits are coming every season. Why once? This dogmatic, we have to accept? Our experience is that by nature's way we find the same flower is coming again in the same season.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, actually Darwin said that there's a missing link.
Prabhupāda: You rascal, you say that. What is that missing link? Simply bluffing, and it is going on in the name of science. Just see the fun. Simply misleading, and people are so rascal, this civilized man, so-called, he is accepting as great theory.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Accepting?
Prabhupāda: This Darwin's theory as very big invention or discovery. Simply childish rascaldom. There is no reason; there is no sense. Man came from monkey—why not coming now? Stop once. So what kind of men came first?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: First there was very primitive man.
Prabhupāda: No, primitive…
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think that he resembles a monkey very much.
Prabhupāda: So there are in Africa these men. They resemble that, what is called? That animal?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Gorilla.
Prabhupāda: Gorilla. So these men are still existing. But why from gorilla they do not come?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don’t come from the gorilla.
Prabhupāda: Africans, I have seen, they look like gorilla. So why now from gorilla the Africans or any black man is not coming? Then the question is the black man… We have got experience. The black man come. And wherefrom the white man came? Is there any white gorilla?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: No. Then white man, how did he come?
Harikeśa: Well, sometimes there is a freak of nature, and the pigments that are in the skin…
Prabhupāda: Simply it is for Darwin, "sometime." To support his rascaldom, nature has to serve him “sometimes. “Just see. We have to believe. Nature's law is the same, symmetrical. Nature is not obliged to serve Mr. Darwin, the rascal. Sometimes. He says, "sometimes." He did, and he knew it only and nobody knew. We have to believe that. Sometimes it was done, and it was revealed to Darwin. How he came to know? Nobody could understand. Only Darwin could understand? There was no other?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They use the same argument against us, though, that… They use the same argument against us that so few people can understand God…
Prabhupāda: No. We don’t say like that. We say that God first spoke to sun-god, and sun-god spoke to his son, Manu, and Manu spoke to Ikṣvāku, Ikṣvāku spoke to his son. In this way are there. We don’t say, "The God spoke to me." Evaṁ paramparā prāptam, that is quite reasonable. God said to Brahmā, and the Brahmā said to Nārada, Nārada said to Vyāsadeva, Vyāsadeva said to others. In this way we should know. If my father said to my forefather… My forefather said to my father or my grandfather, and the same news is coming in family way, then where is the wrong? We don’t say, "Darwin simply knew it." No, we don’t say that. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam. He was a rascal number one, all these scientists, the so-called scientists.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But how can we prove Kṛṣṇa scientifically?
Prabhupāda: First of all let them prove their theory. Then we shall prove ours. We are proving. We have got our own way. But why they are speaking all this nonsense? First of all let him prove that he is genuine. Then our turn will be next. Ours is very easy. Kṛṣṇa said to sun-god, and sun-god said to his son, his son, his son. It is coming like that. Where is the difficulty? Again Kṛṣṇa says, "Now it is mismanaged. It is lost, so I am saying again to you Arjuna." So what Arjuna has understood, we are understanding the same way. How Arjuna understood it, that is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is the… We have no difficulty. But you jump over: "There is link," that "Once only from monkey came." What is this nonsense? We have to believe this? Has it any sense? And because Mr. Darwin is speaking we have to accept it? We cannot…
Harikeśa: Well, certain changes take place. Just like when it is very hot, if you are in a hot climate all the time your blood thins.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. No, no. This is not…
Harikeśa: Well, if you take that further, all of these changes that mount up to some big physical change.
Prabhupāda: No change is taken. The nature is working symmetrically always. The sun is rising in the morning. That is going on for million, million, million, millions of years.
Harikeśa: Gradually the change has taken place in a very scientific way, step by step.
Prabhupāda: What change has taken place?
Harikeśa: First the hairs fell off…
Prabhupāda: Morning… In the morning the sun rises on the eastern side. That is going on. What change has taken place? This flower, seasonal flower is… Now seasonal changes—winter, summer, spring—everything is going on symmetrically. There is no change. Because it is going on symmetrically, therefore we can say that February, next February will be very nice season here. Why? Because we have got experience last February, so we are certain the same thing will happen in the next February. Therefore we can say. There is no such change. Nature's way. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi. It is very symmetrical. Everything is going on nicely, nature's way.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the strong points of Darwin's theory…
Prabhupāda: I don’t find. Simply foolishness I accept. And rascal, foolish like you, will believe. (laughter)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They argue that five thousand years ago they have no history, so they think that before that time…
Prabhupāda: "They think." That is their rascaldom.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Formerly there was no civilization. Therefore like monkey.
Prabhupāda: "They think." That is their… We don’t "think." We have got millions of years' history. Why we shall think with them, with these rascals? They may think, the rascal. A child may think like something, but a elderly man will not think like that. Because they are thinking like that, we have to think with them?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? Because the rascals are thinking in some way, we have to believe that? First of all let them prove that they are sane men. They are all insane rascals. Why shall I take their words? We are taking words from Kṛṣṇa, who is accepted the Supreme by all the ācāryas, all the great sages. Why shall I go to this rascal Darwin? We are not so fools. We cannot accept.
Harikeśa: Well, the Bible is just some story. I mean, the Bible is just some story. Why should we believe that all of a sudden there was…
Prabhupāda: No, Bible is not authorized because it was compiled after Jesus Christ finished.
Harikeśa: No, the Bible was there… Old Testament has been there for thousands of years.
Prabhupāda: Old Testament, but what is going on, Bible…
Harikeśa: That Genesis, where it says the creation…
Prabhupāda: That is another thing.
Harikeśa: That's just some story. Why should we believe it? There's nothing else to believe. Why not believe this Darwin?
Prabhupāda: No, but you are not believing Bible. Bible, they say that the earth is square. So nobody is believing. So one point is sufficient, that it is not perfect. One point is sufficient.
Harikeśa: (laughing) It says the earth is square?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they… They say it. Formerly they believed that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Probably does.
Harikeśa: Oh, you mean flat.
Prabhupāda: You’ll fall down. If you go very far, you’ll fall down. Just like a child thinks. Bible, so many have been proved not authorized. Therefore Bible is not authorized.
Harikeśa: So we had this religion, and everybody was saying that this was the correct way, the official policy. So everybody knew this was nonsense. So Darwin is very scientific, so we accept the science.
Prabhupāda: What is that science? He said, "By chance, once, nature came." Is that … ? That is not science. We don’t find, nature's way, by chance it comes. No. As soon as you talk something nonsense, your whole statement will be accepted as nonsense because you are nonsense. What is the value of your statement? This is our test. Once you say something nonsense, you are wholesale nonsense. That is our test. You cannot say, "I am sorry. It was incorrect," no. That is not allowed. Then your whole statement is incorrect. This is our… Harikeśa: Scientists are always doing that. They’re always saying that.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they’re all nonsense.
Harikeśa: "Last year we made a mistake. Now it's all right."
Prabhupāda: "Now we advance." And what is the guarantee that it is all right? You will advance again. That means you are always incorrect.
Harikeśa: But people always think that it's always getting better.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. This is called māyā. They remain rascal; still, they think that they are advancing.
Harikeśa: Nobody thinks about that point, nobody.
Prabhupāda: If everyone is rascal, how he will think? We say mūḍha, all rascals.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But when the early scientists, they were analyzing the body, they tried to find the soul. They would look for the soul in different parts of the body. They couldn’t find it with their microscopes.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is his rascaldom. He's a rascal. But soul is there. Then find out what is the missing point of a dead man. If there is no soul, something is missing.
Harikeśa: Well, actually they’ve pinned it down to a little bit of a molecule that breaks down.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Bring that molecule.
Harikeśa: They’re working on it.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Again, "working on it." You see. This is bluff. This is bluff.