Prabhupāda: Vikarmīs, opposite karmī.
Devotee (2): So there's practically no karmīs.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sinful.
Prabhupāda: Sinful activities, duṣkṛtinaḥ. Vikarma. Therefore they will be punished in different forms of life. Therefore we find so many species of life, forms of life. This is punishment. But māyā's curtain, they are thinking, "We are happy." Just like this tree is a punishment, but it has no sense that this is punishment.
Guru-kṛpā: Thinks he's happy.
Prabhupāda: Standing happily for five thousand years.
Guru-kṛpā: Drinking only water.
Prabhupāda: If you are asked to stand here for five hours, you'll feel most uncomfortable. But they are standing for five thousand years, no uncomfortable. This is punishment. Punishment is there, but unaware. So everyone is like that. Anyone in the material world, they are being punished in different degree, but unaware. That is māyā's grace, that although he is punished, he cannot understand.
Guru-kṛpā: So they answer that "If you're happy, then what's wrong with that?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, that class you are here. You go on with that happiness. But we are not satisfied with this. You are rascal, you are happy in that way, but we are not. That is the difference between you and me.
Guru-kṛpā: Happiness of the fool.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Sometimes they say that pain is part of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them say, because they will have to suffer. Unless they think like that, how they will suffer?
Devotee (2): What about on the hellish planets? Do they know they're suffering there?
Prabhupāda: Just like to an animal, whipping is nothing. And for a man, to show the whip is sufficient. So there are different degrees of consciousness. Even a child, he'll be afraid by seeing the whip, and the animal, actually being whipped, doesn't care. That is the difference.
Guru-kṛpā: So either they take the śāstra or the śastra.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of śāstra; it is śastra only. When there is no śāstra there must be śastra. Argumentum baculum. When there is no logic, give him whip, that's all. So all these, they are awaiting whipping. They are being whipped. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).
Devotee (2): How can we make them understand they're being punished?
Prabhupāda: You can understand, provided you have got the sense. If you are nonsense, you cannot understand. You cannot understand means you are nonsense. That is the difference between sense and nonsense. That I have already given, the example: the same whip, to the animal it is not suffering, but for a man, simply by seeing it is suffering. It is the question of sense. That is the difference between man and animal. The animal cannot understand that he is suffering. Man can understand. That is difference. If you do not understand, then you are animal. Now, here it is clearly said, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is unhappiness. And if you think, "Oh, what is there, unhappiness in dying?" then you are animal. The animal are taken to the slaughterhouse. He is not disturbed. He is eating grass very peacefully. That is the animal life. If you do not understand what is unhappiness, then you are animal. You are not human being. But his unhappiness, that's a fact, to remain in a airtight bag for ten months. If you have no sense, "Oh, what is this?" And still being killed, is it not unhappiness? And if you say, "Where is unhappiness?" then you are a stone. The Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Janma is unhappiness. First of all you have to remain ten months in a packed-up bag and that also risk your mother will kill you, and still you say, "It is not unhappiness"? Then what is happiness? You are so dull that you see there is no unhappiness in birth. Practically see.
Guru-kṛpā: But they're so nonsense, they say, "Well, I can't remember..."
Prabhupāda: But therefore I say animal. Nonsense means animal.
Passerby: (yells incoherently)
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! (laughter)