Dr. Patel: If they understand that there is unity and nothing else but Kṛṣṇa, then they are released from the māyā's condition.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise, they are going...
Prabhupāda: So therefore they'll not... If anyone knows that "Wherever I go, Kṛṣṇa's supremacy is there. Kṛṣṇa's supreme is there." But he is perplexed, dvandva-mohena, that "If I leave Kṛṣṇa, I become more happy." That is dvandva-mohaḥ.
Dr. Patel: Dvandva-mohaḥ means all duality of this...
Prabhupāda: Yes, duality. He's making duality that "Kṛṣṇa's interest and my interest, different."
Mr. Sar: All likes and dislikes.
Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa's interest and my interests, different." That is dvandva-moha. When he understands that "My interest and Kṛṣṇa's interest is the same," then it is not dvandva-moha.
Dr. Patel: Dvandva-mohena bhārata.
Mr. Sar: Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām...
Prabhupāda: Ah. This dvandva-mohaḥ exists with the sinful man, but one who is freed from all sinful reactions, resultant actions, he can understand Kṛṣṇa.
Mr. Sar: Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28).
Prabhupāda: Māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Then he engages himself dṛḍha-vratāḥ: "No, I am simply servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all."
Mr. Sar: Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya mām āśritya yatanti ye, te brahma...
Prabhupāda: Now, here, here the real problem is jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya. But they are, these people, they are engaged in paltry things. The real business is how to become free from the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). They do not know that. Real, real purpose of life they do not know. Take any big leader. He does not know what is the aim of life. What is the problem of life, he does not know. Mūḍha na abhijānanti, mūḍha māṁ nābhijānanti.
Dr. Patel: Mūḍha mām abhijānanti.
Mr. Sar: Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti (BG 7.25).
Mr. Sar: Te brahma tad viduḥ kṛtsnam adhyātmām karma cākhilam.
Prabhupāda: Now these things will be explained further in the next chapter. (break) ...nothing to... He's self-sufficient. He hasn't got to find out māyā to enjoy.
Dr. Patel: No, the lower... That is the jīva.
Prabhupāda: And the jīva, because he's dependent, he has to... Just like a servant. If he wants to, little more comfort, he may find out a bigger master. But he has to serve. That is the position. You have to serve. If you don't serve Kṛṣṇa, then you serve māyā. That's all.
Dr. Patel: That is what I was saying, that...
Prabhupāda: This is the position.
Guest (5): Does God need service?
Prabhupāda: God does not need. You need to serve God. God does not need.
Guest (5): He's not self-sufficient, you mean.
Prabhupāda: He's self-sufficient, but it is for your interest.
Guest (5): He knows before creating people, they'll sin. Then why does He create them?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? He does not create. This is all nonsense question. He does not create. He does not create.
Guest (5): He's not omniscient?
Prabhupāda: He's omniscient, everything. But you want. Therefore He has given you facility, "All right, you enjoy. And become entangled. That's all." Therefore at last He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Therefore He says that "This is rascaldom. You are trying this, this, that, that. No! Don't try that. Come on. Surrender unto Me." This is the last instruction.
Dr. Patel: Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61), bhrāmayan... (break) ...but you are illusioned because of the māyā... (break)
Prabhupāda: One man is in the prison house. So he supports, "Why government has created the prison house?" There must be somebody.
Dr. Patel: You go in. "So let me go in."
Prabhupāda: But government does not want that. Only the criminals are sent there. That's all. Similarly, this material creation, there was no necessity. But because there are criminals who want to enjoy, therefore God has given this facility, "All right, you enjoy."
Dr. Patel: The whole material world is created by the propensity of the past actions of all... (break)
Prabhupāda: No, because God knows that "There are some fools and rascals who will desire like that. All right, if they want,..."
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like government knows. Suppose government is creating one city, but he's creating at the same time the jail house. Although there is no criminal at that time. But government knows there are some criminals who will fulfill this jail house. Because you are independent. Everyone is independent. Not absolute independent, but slight independent. So therefore you have the option either to serve God or serve māyā. That's all.
Dr. Patel: Serve God or serve Mammon.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Dr. Patel: You can't serve two masters at the same time. (break)
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...minute quantity. (break)
Guest (5): Why does God permit all these sins and offenses?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Dr. Patel: That is the eternal... That a madman created all this. (break)
Prabhupāda: Why do you not understand? God does not create. But you create. Just like you infect some disease. So you create your disease. Nobody's creating your disease. The simple thing, why don't you understand? If you... Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Guṇa-saṅga. If you associate with the different qualities of this material nature, then you inf..., you become infected. You, if you associate with the tamo-guṇa, then you become lower class man, animals. That is your fault. It is not Kṛṣṇa's fault.
Dr. Patel: All your actions and their effects, which are collecting on you... (break)
Guest (5): ...knows the procreating from the first word or some people would exercise their so-called free will and choosing sin, and still He creates them. If He were not to...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. There is no question of choosing. As soon as you associate some infections disease, it is not the question of disease. You must be diseased. This is the law of nature. If you infect the smallpox disease, then you must be suffering from smallpox. That is law of nature. Not that your father has created small pox disease for you. Try to understand like this. You infect yourself. (break) ...giving him chance.
Dr. Patel: But you, as a jīva, is so much engrossed in the māyā, in the tree, in the fruits of it, that you don't heed...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: ...what (Hindi?) says.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is the... That is the disease. Now, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ... (BG 18.66). Who is caring for Him?
Dr. Patel: So you stop this looking down and look up.
Prabhupāda: Who is caring for Him? That is independence. Now you suffer.