Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa begins the first understanding,
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
Yes. What is the translation?
Satsvarūpa: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."
Prabhupāda: And now...
Haṁsadūta: Translate.
Prabhupāda: Yes, translate. (German) This is the basic principle of knowledge, that "I am not this body. I am the active principle within this body." Then further knowledge can be understood. This is the beginning of knowledge, that "I am not this..." At the present moment everything... That I was explaining to the professor, that we are accepting this body as self, and self-interest means this bodily interest. Explain this. (German) So the whole trouble is on the platform of this misconception that "I am this body." Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this platform what is knowledge. First of all one must know that "I am not this body." When he understands this basic principle of knowledge, then further knowledge can be advanced. That is explained very nicely step by step in this book Bhagavad-gītā.
Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? If you give us this wisdom, don't you meet now in the western world an opposition from the Christian side where the key word that this faith becomes a body, this faith becomes flesh.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. We accept it.
Professor Durckheim: The incarnation. How do you understand incarnation? (German)
Prabhupāda: Now, this question, that spirit develops the skin, you said?
Professor Durckheim: Spirit? You see I have very often... I saw the difference.
Haṁsadūta: The spirit becomes flesh.
Professor Durckheim: The spirit becomes flesh.
Prabhupāda: That's it. So this we can experience, that as soon as the spirit is entered into the womb of the mother, they develops skin and the child develops body. So this is very practical, that first of all, not that simply by sexual intercourse a child is born. Then every the time sexual intercourse would have caused pregnancy. No. Unless the spirit soul is there, there is no question of developing body. Therefore it is natural that the spirit soul creates this flesh and bone and other things and develops into body. There is no difficulty to understand.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, but I think the professor was asking how in our time in the case of a word, as far as spirit becoming flesh, not in the face of an ordinary child. I think I have understood your point?
Professor Durckheim: Yes, in principle. You see sometimes, it seems to me, I might be wrong, that there is one difference between Eastern wisdom and Christian way to think that whereas in the Eastern way, we have to become rid of our body, to be liberate from our body, whereas Christian sense means to realize the spirit within the body. (German)
Prabhupāda: Now, what is our suffering?
Professor Durckheim: I am sure it can be reconciled, but I am interested to know how do you see this question.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That everyone can understand. It is very easy. Now, just like we have already heard from Bhagavad-gītā that I am the spirit, I am within this body. So my sufferings are on account of this body. This is a fact. Because I have entered into this body, material body, there are my sufferings. Therefore my business should be how to get out of this body. Is it clear or not?
Professor Durckheim: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So this incarnation means I am spirit soul, I have entered this body. Now I can, next life I can enter into another body. It may be dog's body, it may be cat's body or it may be king's body. So the standard of suffering is there either in the king's body or in the dog's body. And the standard of sufferings is enunciated, birth, death, old age and disease. These are our sufferings. So in order to get out of these four kinds of sufferings—there are many kinds; these are the main kinds—we have to get out of this body. That is the problem.
Professor Durckheim: Through many lives...
Prabhupāda: Many life or this life. In this life you understand that "My sufferings are due to this body. Then how to get out of this body?" If you acquire this knowledge, you know the tricks, then you get immediately.
Professor Durckheim: May I say that way, that you say, if you, for instance, or I want to go out of this body, it doesn't mean that I will have to kill my body, but to realize that my spirit is independent from my body.
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of killing. You be killed or not killed, you have to go out of this body and accept another body. That is nature's law. That you cannot avoid. It is not necessarily that first of all you have to be killed. No.
Professor Durckheim: No. Certainly not. But I have tried to become independent from my body.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become. (German)
Lady: Have you got some points in common with the Christians?
Professor Durckheim: Lady says that there are some common points with the Christians who also certainly want to become independent from this body which wants material life only.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muslim or... Knowledge is knowledge. Wherever knowledge is available, you must pick up. So knowledge... Now let us explain, that knowledge has no color. Knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't matter whether Christianism or Hinduism or Mohammedan. Now, this is a knowledge, that every living entity is imprisoned within this body. This knowledge is equally good for Hindus, Muslim, Christian or everyone. There is no question of Christianism or Hinduism. The soul is imprisoned within this body, and the problem is birth, death, old age and disease on account of this body. But we want to live eternally, we want full knowledge; we want full blissfulness. To attain that goal of life, we must get out of this body. This is the process. (German) (break)