Gandhi (Conversations 1975)

Expressions researched:
"Gandhi" |"Gandhi" |"Gandhi's" |"Gandhi's" |"Gandhi's" |"Gandhiji" |"Gandhiji" |"Gandhiji's" |"Gandhis"

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Those who are pure devotees—avyabhicāreṇi, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Brs. 1.1.11)—such persons are above this material infection. So therefore he doesn't require to accept sannyāsa or brahmacārī. He doesn't... These are gradual processes, to come to the varṇāśrama system, then accept the varṇa and āśramas, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha. This is called varṇāśrama system. But this is the beginning of human life. One who does not take to this system, he's animal because animal, there is no such system. And because in this age the varṇāśrama is not observed, therefore men are like animals. Dharmeṇa hīnā paṣubhiḥ samānāḥ. Dharma means this varṇāśrama-dharma. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So if the human society does not accept dharma, then he's as good as animal.

Guest (4): That which Śrīla Gandhi was working against?

Prabhupāda: If I say the truth you'll be angry. (chuckling)

Guest (4): No, no one will be angry, but you have mentioned...

Prabhupāda: Gandhi was a politician. What does he know about dharma? He was a politician. He thought it wise that British government is very strong... Before him so many political parties tried to become violent, and they were all curbed down. This Aurobindo also was a leader of anarchist party, and when he was condemned to death, then his senses came: "This is all useless. Let me engage in performing yoga." So Gandhi thought that before him all these violent movement was cast down by the British. So he took it as a method, nonviolence, noncooperation, and to capture the public of India-India is generally inclined religiously—he became a mahātmā. But mahātmā is different. A mahātmā is not interested in politics. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ-prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). That is mahātmā. Mahātmā has nothing to do with politics.

Guest (5): The term mahātmā was first used to describe Gandhi by Annie Besant.

Prabhupāda: Yes, one can use any term without any sense.

Guest (4): No, I think it was by Rabindranath.

Prabhupāda: They... Anyone can. Rabindra Bābu was also like that. (laughter) He was a bābu, but he became guru. This is going on.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: Yesterday or day before yesterday, I was talking on common sense on law points, so Rūpānuga said that "You are bigger than lawyer." I do not know that I am bigger than lawyer, but I was speaking on common sense. The difficulty is they are misleading. So many people are being misled by the so-called politician and scientist and... But Gandhi says... He has written so many nonsense things. One thing is that he said, "I do not believe that there was anybody as Kṛṣṇa living ever. Kṛṣṇa is of my imagination." These things he has written. And he is Mahatma Gandhi. Mahātmā's definition is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). Mahātmā means devotee, who have understood vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). But these rascal politicians, they have become mahātmā. For politics, they can do anything, lie like anybody, and so many things. There was a big writer in Bengal. So he is giving evidence in the court... That's a comic. So he says, "Do you think I am editor? I am pleader? I am prostitute?" Means indirectly he is saying that they are prostitutes. As the prostitute can say anything, lies, for their profession, similarly, these people, the editor and the..., pleaders, they are like that. "Do you think I am prostitute? Do you think I am lawyer? Do you think I am editor, newspaper editor?" So take this formula from the śāstras that a living entity is never created. These rascals are trying to create living entity and spending money and going to hold big, big conference. So where is the question of creation? They are already created. Why this common sense do not come in their brain? Why?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they are illusioned. Prabhupāda: Innocent? Rūpānuga: Illusioned, illusioned. Prabhupāda: Oh, illusioned, yes.

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Guest (1): Everything comes from the mother earth. We are in very short supply of things.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No shortage. That is everything supply. You have got the Vedic knowledge. You don't take care of that. You now manufacture your own knowledge. Now there is knowledge, this Bhagavad-gītā is perfect knowledge, but even a political leader like Gandhi, he says that I don't believe that there was anybody like Kṛṣṇa living. This is your leader. All the ācāryas, previous ācāryas, big, big ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, big, big, stalwart, learned, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa. Now Gandhi says, "I don't believe." Now you are guided by Gandhi, you are not guided by the ācāryas. That is your misfortune. You are not guided by Kṛṣṇa. You are guided by Dr. Radhakrishnan. That is the misfortune. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31), one blind man is being, is following another blind man. That is going on. That is going on all over the world, not only in India.

Guest (2): I think Mahatma Gandhi followed the Gītā, all these...

Prabhupāda: But he did not believe in Kṛṣṇa and he followed Gītā. Just see.

Guest (2): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, just try to understand the psychology. He says plainly that I do not believe there was anybody Kṛṣṇa, living ever. And he's following Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Just see his position.

Room Conversation with Bernard Manischewitz -- March 5, 1975, New York:

Prabhupāda: Say about five thousand years. Kali-yuga has begun since five thousand years, and it will continue for 427,000 years still.

Bernard Manischewitz: I have another question. May I ask it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Bernard Manischewitz: There seems to be a determination on the part of most of the devotees to eliminate from their lives all news except that dealing with Kṛṣṇa. It seems..., it seems to me if they are to bring Kṛṣṇa to the world that it would be an important thing for them to have news, to know, to be able to communicate with people. Is there some actual prohibition against (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: No, we know... It is useless. It is useless. Because what you will find in the newspaper? The material activities within this item-eating, sleeping, sex and defense. All the politicians will speak, "Now we are arranging eating process like this, we are making this plan, we are..., economic." Uhh? (aside:) Thank you. Very good. You have written? Aiye. The repetition of the same news. It has no good news. "There was a burglary, there was a theft, and this man cheated, and this man was rogue." What is the use of this news? Let everyone know that the whole world is full of such rubbish things. The politicians, they are talking in their own way, that's all. (indistinct) Even Gandhi, such an exalted man, he says that "I have no belief. I do not believe that there was any person as Kṛṣṇa ever living." Just see. All the big, big ācāryas of India who are practically controlling the destiny of the Hindu civilization or Vedic civilization, they all believe. Gandhi became more than them. Who made him, that is another thing. But he thinks like that, and because Gandhi thinks, just imagine how many millions of people have been misled. Similarly big, big scholars like Dr. Radhakrishnan, he says when Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), he said, "This is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, clearly it is stated, bhagavān uvāca Find out this verse. Please, you find out, somebody. Bhagavad-gītā here. Find out.

Devotee: Eighteenth Chapter.

Prabhupāda: Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī, Ninth Chapter.

Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: Oh, you are just like my child. My first child was born 1921. What is your birth date?

Ambassador: That was three years earlier. So there you are.

Prabhupāda: 1918? In that year I was married. I was student at that time. I was student, 1900 up to '20. Then I joined Gandhi's noncooperation movement and gave up my education. His points were to give up English education, English court, English-manufactured goods, in this way.

Ambassador: How did you feel about Gandhiji spiritually?

Prabhupāda: He was a good gentleman, that's all. He had no spiritual asset.

Ambassador: That's what I wondered. I never met him. I don't know. But he said himself, "I may be a saint among politicians, but I'm a politician among saints." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: He said or the governor said? Anyway, it is... Mr. Casey from Australia—he was governor of Bengal—he said, I think, that thing. His study was like that. He was a politician, that's all.

Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said that "I am in everyone's heart." Sarvasya. Sarvasya ca aham hṛdi. Hṛdi means the heart. Sanniviṣṭaḥ: "I am there." So He is witnessing everything. So Britishers would have been... They were accepted by the Indians very nicely. People liked, because after the Mohammedan period, when the Britishers came, they did something which was very, very nice for the Indians, and the Indians, they liked them very much. Later on, they became too much greedy. For their own men they wanted to sacrifice everything Indian. So that Jalianwala-bagh. Then the Gandhi came and took this vow that "The Britishers must go, quit India." So Britishers got a very good opportunity for world unity under British Empire. But their only policy was that to exploit others and enrich London. That was their bad policy, yes. They should have ruled for the benefit of the people. Then British rule was very nice.

Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: Yes. You know very well. You are (were?) in Delhi.

Ambassador: It is a difficult thing to get to.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they gave us place. At the last moment they rejected. First of all they gave. Then, at the last moment, the municipality said, "No, this land cannot be given to any religious function." Rejected. And offered, "If you like, you can take this place." So we had no other alternative to accept it. We advertised that "We are going to hold this ceremony," and the authority rejected at the eleventh hour and offered the Tal Kotara place. We had to accept it. And the government indirectly giving us so many hindrances in India. Yes. They do not like. One of the important member of the cabinet, he frankly said that "We do not want that your movement will increase very fast in India." Because they know it, Indira Gandhi and company, that India is naturally inclined to Kṛṣṇa. And if the selected people of the world, combined together, they push this movement in India, then the whole program of the modern leaders will collapse. That's a fact. And that was my idea. I wanted to start this movement from India. But nobody cooperated. So then I decided to come to America. And my plan was successful.

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: Why you shall listen to me? The Bhagavad-gītā is there.

Dr. Movebhed: But you are an insider.

Prabhupāda: Yes, actually without listening, so many big, big men, they have committed mistake about Bhagavad-gītā. Even Gandhi, he says that "I do not believe that there was a person, Kṛṣṇa, ever living." Just see. What to speak of others. (Hindi) Without listening from the right source, even a personality like Gandhi will commit mistake, what to speak of others. Similarly, Dr. Rādhākrishnan has committed so many mistake. So big, big scholars, they're trying to study Bhagavad-gītā, but they cannot understand. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You first prepare yourself to surrender, praṇipāta, praṇipāta-prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa nipāta. Without any reservation, surrender, praṇipātena, by the surrendering process, and paripraśnena, by enquiring from the authority. Because it is not very easy to understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Out of many, many million persons one try to understand, one trying to become perfect, siddhaye. Siddhi means perfection. So yatatām api siddhānām: (BG 7.3) "Those who have attained siddhi, perfection, out of many such siddhas," kaścid māṁ vetti tattvataḥ, "maybe one man can understand Me." The first of all to become siddha. Then, after becoming siddha, one may understand Kṛṣṇa or he may not. Actually it is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa. But you can understand Kṛṣṇa if you adopt this process: praṇipātena, paripraśnena, sevayā-three things. You have to go to a person where you can surrender, not to a bogus person or one who is not competent to accept your surrender. And then you make question that "Kṛṣṇa says like this. What is the meaning of this?" Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati... (BG 7.3). And sevayā. Three things required: first of all surrender, and then question, and seva. You cannot question by challenging. You have to render service and surrender. Between the two, praṇipāta and sevayā, there is paripraśna. Then you will understand. Upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninaḥ tattva-darśinaḥ. Tattva-darśi, one who has seen the truth, he can enlighten you. This is the process. Otherwise, even Gandhi, Dr. Rādhākrishnan, Vivekānanda, all they have committed mistake. Aurobindo. Aurobindo has understood little to some extent, but not fully. But if we are fortunate enough, then we can understand Kṛṣṇa very easily. What is that? Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). "My dear Dhanañjaya, Arjuna, there is no more superior truth than Me." So if we accept that, either you say blindly or conscientiously, then that is perfection. Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births of philosophical speculation, when one actually becomes wise, jñānī, jñānavān, full of knowledge, then the result is māṁ prapadyate: he surrenders unto Me." Why surrender? Now, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)—he understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything. Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ: "Such mahātmā is very rare." That I was... we were discussing that there are so many religious system in the world, but hardly they have got any clear conception of God. I have asked so many gentlemen belonging to different types of religion that "What is the clear conception of God?" So may I ask you also what is the clear conception of God?

Dr. Movebhed: I prefer to listen to you.

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: Sarvam etaṁ ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava: "My dear Keśava..." Keśava, the another name of Kṛṣṇa... "Whatever You have said I accept them cent percent." Sarvam etaṁ ṛtam. Ṛtam means fact, truth. This is understanding. So if we accept in that way, then our knowledge is perfect. And if we accept in a different way... Just like Gandhi says that "I do not believe that Kṛṣṇa ever lived." Just see. He does not believe in the ācāryas. All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they have written big, big comment on Bhagavad-gītā, even Śaṅkarācārya. He does not believe anyone. He believes himself. And that kind of belief is not help. And our process is: because Kṛṣṇa has been accepted by all the ācāryas, all the great sages, Arjuna has accepted—we accept, that's all. We have no difficulty. If I am child, I ask my father, "What is this, my father?" The father says, "My dear child, it is called coconut." Then, if I distribute this knowledge, "This is coconut," then my knowledge is perfect. I may not be perfect, but because I have heard it from my father, who is perfect about the knowledge of this fruit, so I have taken that word from my father, and I am preaching, "This is coconut," and this is perfect. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is like that. We are simply repeating the perfect statement of our predecessor. That's all. So there is no difficulty. We haven't got to write thesis on Kṛṣṇa. The perfect knowledge is already there. And supported by the ācāryas. And we are simply submitting that "This is Kṛṣṇa. This is God." That's all. All over the world we are placing this statement that "Here is Bhagavad-gītā, and Kṛṣṇa spoke. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is like this. He is the original source of everything." Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: (BG 10.8) "I am the origin of everything." And Kṛṣṇa also says, "After many, many births one come to this understanding that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: (BG 7.19) 'Vasudeva is everything.' " Kṛṣṇa says, "I am everything." And when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything, sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ, that mahātmā is very rare.

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Indian man: Oh, I thought Kṛṣṇa conscious only for this...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Any association which is Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can join.

Indian man: Thank you for the enlightenment. But I have got one other doubt. You had told that some great scholars like Mahatma Gandhi had confused and they did not believe in the Kṛṣṇa living, He ever lived, and Dr. Radhakrishnan and another also were not clear in enunciating the theory of Kṛṣṇa. I would like to know whether Kṛṣṇa living or not living, is it very important? And will the movement depends upon one Kṛṣṇa living, positive...

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Kṛṣṇa is never not living—He is living. Otherwise how He can be Kṛṣṇa? But if you do not know whether He is living or not living, that is your lack of knowledge.

Indian man: Do you believe Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: No, first of all settle up this one question, that Kṛṣṇa is always living, and if you do not know whether Kṛṣṇa is living or not living, then your knowledge is imperfect. Therefore your knowledge will not be accepted, because you are imperfect. That is the point.

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: No, therefore... No, therefore... Therefore we say that first of all you understand Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad-gītā. That is the ABCD of Kṛṣṇa. Then you go to Bhāgavatam.

Dr. Movebhed: I feel... If I am not wrong, I feel that what others have done, that Mahatma Gandhi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, etc., etc., they have taught that Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad-gītā is very much important for us. Whether He was living or whether He did not live, or anything which was in the name of Kṛṣṇa, that is quite (sic:) impertinent. We want to have the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa as enunciated in Bhagavad-gītā, is just enough to tell others who are in need of...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if you do not believe in that person, how do you understand his philosophy?

Dr. Movebhed: That's where... I think I may be wrong. Please correct me if I go wrong. That's where people have taken little, two to three steps, as my friend has told, first advaita. She wanted to have two...

Prabhupāda: No, no, why advaita, dvaita? First of all you take the preliminary things, that you are accepting the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā, but you have no knowledge of the person who has spoken Bhagavad-gītā. Then where is your understanding? You do not understand the person who has spoken the Bhagavad-gītā. Then what is the meaning of your understanding Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man: No, we have to try...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Try, try, another thing.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Guest: Blind leaders and blind followers?

Prabhupāda: Then they are controlled by the laws of material nature, and they want to be happy independently. This is rascaldom. If I am controlling you and you want to become happy independently, how it is possible? You must get out of the control first of all. Your eyes should be open. Then you can do something independently. But you are under my control fully, and I have wrapped up your eyes with very thick layer of cloth, and then how you can become independent, work. That they do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). This māyā, this energy, is very, very strong. You cannot get out of it. Then what is the way? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then immediately he gets out of the control of māyā. That is the sign. Otherwise, if I remain a blind man, how can I lead others? Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, janma sārthaka kari kāra para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). You are very busy doing good to others, but first of all make your life perfect. And otherwise, you rascal, fool, blind, what you will do? So where is the training? Where the politicians are going to take training how to become free from the wrapping, illusion? So they are in illusion, in darkness. What they can do? Futile attempt. Therefore all plans are failure. So many Hitler, so many Gandhi, so many Churchill, they came and...

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. Yes, everyone is blind.

Interview with a German Girl and Assorted Devotees -- March 30, 1975, Mayapur:

Guest (2) (Indian man): Just one sentence, Prabhupāda. Another thing is they know they are taking body again and again. They are taking the body again and again after birth. Why they are committing again and again sins and which mode of nature...?

Prabhupāda: Because they do not know how to stop this process. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. You can stop this. But these... Again rascals. They'll not take the method. Kṛṣṇa said that "If you simply try to understand Me," janma, "why I appear and why I come here and work," karma..., "they are divine." The divine nature of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, disappearance and activities, if one can understand, then immediately he becomes free from this process. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). But the rascals will not do that. They'll misunderstand Kṛṣṇa. They'll misdescribe Kṛṣṇa. They'll think, "Kṛṣṇa is ordinary man." Gandhi will say that "I don't think there was any person living as Kṛṣṇa." And he is mahātmā. These things are going on. Mahātmā is proving himself as the greatest rascal. This is your mahātmā, and what to speak of the durātmā. So you are being guided by these...

Guest (2): A lot of people in... Before I came to your temple in Toronto, in our family nobody is eating any meat. When I went West, I got it some, this point, and I was misguided by the different philosophies. So lot of misguiding and misled...

Prabhupāda: That is my rascaldom. Why I shall be misguided? I must know who is the right person.

Morning Walk -- April 2, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Britishers made so many attempts that "Indians were uncivilized, and we have come here to make them civilized."

Rāmeśvara: So for colonialism.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just to... Because there are other powers, so they are envious that "Why these rascals, they occupy India?" So, so just to support this occupation, I mean to say, yes, occupation, and..., they made so many propaganda. Even during Gandhi's movement, they engaged one American woman to write a book "Mother India." "Mother India." "Mother India." So the... In... That "Mother India" is simply full of stories where there are so defects. Suppose a priest in the temple is attached with some woman, like that, so many stories like... So one Punjabi, what is his name? Gobha, (?) Gobha. He counteracted that book—"Uncle Sam." (laughter) So these things are going on.

Morning Walk -- April 2, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: And he described the American life in so, mean, badly.

Pañcadraviḍa: Is there any...

Prabhupāda: And Gandhi said, "This Mother India is the drain inspector's report."

Tamal-kṛṣṇa: The drain inspectors?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sewage inspector report. These things will go on. So long people will remain in darkness about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these things, rubbish things, will go on. I'll find out fault in you; you'll find out fault in me. That's all. Because the basic principle of material civilization is envy. I do not like you; you do not like me. That's all. Envy. Everywhere, individually, nationally, socially, familywise—everyone is envious. That is the material disease. And therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇam (SB 1.1.2). Those who are interested in superfluous religious system, cheating system of religion... Just like the Christians, they say that "Christ has taken contract for all our sinful activities."

Room Conversation -- April 4, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Americans want this place to fight with the Russians. So if American comes directly in India, that "We want to fight," then India would not agree. Therefore they're keeping with these foolish rascals, Pakistan. And they're insulting. They're... Not insulting. They're naturally enemy of... not to let them... The Vietnam and everything, Korea, all these things. Not to allow the communists to become very powerful. That is American political policy is going on. And the presidents may change, but the national policy cannot be changed. Therefore they want fighting between Pakistan and India. So Russia... Actually that happened. Russia will come to the help of India. That arrangement is already there with Indira Gandhi. Naturally they'll come to help Pakistan. And then between the big two.

Devotee (1): That's why you said this morning that India will suffer more than any other country.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagavān: The last time there was a war between Pakistan and India the American government put their whole fleet and aimed their guns at India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They wanted to help Pakistan. But when the Russian came, they took time. Otherwise, fighting would have begun at that time.

Morning Walk -- April 28, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Ah, yata mat tata path.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean?

Prabhupāda: That is Vivekananda's philosophy. "Whatever opinion you have got, that is also nice." That means even if we differ, your opinion, my opinion, your is good and my is good. That means no controversy, that's all: making compromise. If I say, "Your, your whatever you think..." This is going on. When Gandhi was approached that "You have got so much influence on the Mohammedans. Why don't you stop this cow slaughter?" Gandhi said, "No, it is their religion. I cannot stop." That is yata mat, that "Cow slaughter is also good, and cow not slaughter is also good." (chuckles) This is their philosophy. (break) What is called?

Acyutānanda: Yātrā.

Prabhupāda: Yātrā. To collect some money, that's all.

Acyutānanda: Then they arrange it so that they save the balance expenses.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the meaning of yātrā. Every one of our Godbrothers built here yātrā, but they have no other source of income.

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Some people. Many authorities say it is right, and that is your fortune or misfortune. As some people say that it is written by some man or something, then it is not perfect. There are many others also, they say it is perfect. Now it is your choice, whom you to follow. So that some people as they are against, there are for also. Now it is up to you to accept whom. It is up to you. We accept the direction of the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya. Their word is perfect. They take the direction of Gandhi or this man, that man. Both of them are taking direction, but when the direction is perfect, then you become perfect. If the direction is imperfect, you remain imperfect. That's all.

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Gaṇeśa: We can see from the results of those different directions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Results, phalena-paricīyate. That is required. Now there are so many Gandhi-ite students. They have also read Bhagavad-gītā, and you have also read Bhagavad-gītā. Find out the difference. That is the result.

Paramahaṁsa: We have heard that Gandhi was a great mahātmā.

Prabhupāda: You have heard. You have heard so many things. That mountain gave birth to a mouse. You have heard like that.

Paramahaṁsa: But Gandhi also read the Bhagavad-gītā, and he made so many wonderful comments on the Gītā.

Prabhupāda: That wonderfulness is for the rascals and the fools. What wonderful he has done? He preached nonviolence, but he was killed by violence. That is his wonderful example. He preached the philosophy of nonviolence, which is impossible. Therefore Kṛṣṇa killed him by violence. This is his wonderful. And his foolishness was proved, that there cannot be nonviolence. So he was a fool.

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: So, this is foolishness. You become very bold enough, "Now I shall cook without fire." You are a rascal number one. Gandhi did it. Actually he could not drive away the Britishers by nonviolence, for thirty years, thirty-five years he struggled. When Subash Bose introduced violence, they were forced out. This is politics. Politics and nonviolence (incompatible). There is no history in the world that politics has been successful without violence, and he introduced this. So how much foolish he was, you can understand. It is same thing like that, if somebody says, "I'll cook without any. I shall scientifically do that a man can give birth to a child." There is no history, and if I say, "Now I shall do it. I shall see that equal rights. As a woman is giving birth to a child, the man will also will give child." These things are foolishness. This is not intelligence. The women are claiming equal rights. So, stop giving birth to a child? Then equal rights. Can it be possible? The man and woman unite, but the woman becomes pregnant, not the man. And if somebody says, now the man will become pregnant, is it not foolishness?

Paramahaṁsa: But they have made a way so that the women also don't have to become pregnant. This contraceptive, and...

Prabhupāda: This is another foolishness. (indistinct) another... (break) This unnatural thing. (break) What is this insignia?

Śrutakīrti: That is Ford's insignia.

Prabhupāda: Ford? This is Ford?

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Gaṇeśa: Does it mean we should use violence to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness then, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No. Yes, when there is politics, that is necessary. I am speaking of politics, not of love. You cannot create love by violence. That is another thing. But if you want kingdom, there must be violence. By violence you cannot force a woman, agree to love you. That is not possible. Then there must be love. The business must be done accordingly. But when there is politics, there must be violence. Otherwise you cannot come out victorious. (break) ...in a friendly way. "Might is right." So Gandhi did this foolishness and he died of violence. (laughs) He praised the philosophy of nonviolence, but he was himself killed by violence. That was his foolishness.

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Lord Buddha was not a politician.

Paramahaṁsa: But he conquered India. He became the most...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He conquered India. If he con-quered India, why he is driven out of India? Nobody is Buddhist now in India. And in Japan, nearly also halfway, so that is (indistinct). Buddha's nonviolence and Gandhi's nonviolence is different.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Gandhi's nonviolence all rascaldom because he was dealing in politics. Buddha never entered in politics. So how you can compare with Buddha? His activities are different. His activity of false vibration(?), to stop all kinds of miseries of material world. That was his philosophy. He never dealt in politics. Although he was a king's son, he never dealt in politics. You cannot... This is foolishness. We do not know. We do not study what is Buddha's position, what is Gandhi's position.

Paramahaṁsa: But still, everyone in India respects Gandhi so much. They have statues and everything.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: I think he was posing as a materialist.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But one who does not know, why is he saying that Bhagavad-gītā was written five thousand years ago? He does not know. That is my point. If you had known then you would not have said like that, foolishly, that Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. It is avyayam, it is eternally there. It is eternally there. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). Avyayam means which is never under deterioration. It is eternally existing. That is avyayam. Just like ātmā, soul, avyayam. There is no deterioration. It is there. So forty millions of years ago once it was spoken, but in due course of time it is now lost; therefore I am speaking it again to you. You did not read Bhagavad-gītā it is said there? How do you say it was written five thousand years ago? It is already there. It was first spoken forty millions of years ago, now it is lost. The material world is like that. One thing is lost sometimes. Therefore I am speaking to you. And why are you speaking to me? Because you are my devotee. This is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. That means only the devotees can understand Bhagavad-gītā, and it is always existing, and because it is now lost... Just like we are putting Bhagavad-gītā, why am I stressing so much? It is lost. By the so-called Gandhis and Dr. Radhakrishnan, they have made it lost. Therefore we are stressing. The thing is there. We are simply trying to revive it again. It is not that it is the beginning. No. It is already there. But these rascals have made it lost. People do not understand it, do not follow it, that is the difficulty. So we are trying to revive it again. It is revival of the whole teaching. Permanent teaching. Permanent beneficial instruction. Now it is lost.

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, and Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "No, no, it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Just see how misleading these rascals. Why you should interpret upon Kṛṣṇa's word? If you have got your own philosophy, you write another book. Why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā? This is their cheating. Bhagavad-gītā is a popular book. Gandhi also took Bhagavad-gītā for his political diplomacy. This is going on. And they'll never agree to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They'll never agree. The other day I was there in Kurukṣetra. They have got their own plan-mānava-dharma, this dharma, that dharma. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: (BG 18.66) "You give up all these. Kick out all this so-called rascaldom. You just surrender unto Me." That they will not do. Except this, everything which is going on in the name of religion, that is cheating. Everyone is misinterpret... Just like Christians, they have misinterpreted: "Kill means murder. It is meant for man." That means they are making their own lusty desires fulfilled in the name of Bible, that's all. Everyone is doing like that. They are changing. Mass opinion is now homosex. They are passing abortion. They are passing... What is this? This is their business. For fulfillment of their lusty desires and greediness, they are bringing the authority of Bible, Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on in the name of religion.

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Now this rascal Jawaharlal Nehru has introduced divorce in the Hindu society. Otherwise in the Hindu society separation between husband and wife is not even dreamt of. That, it cannot be. However there may be quarrelsome, but there is no question of separation. Husband and wife, they fight, everywhere. I have seen. My father and mother was fighting. I fought. (laughter) But there is no question of separation. Separation, they never think. Neither the husband can think of, nor the wife can think of. Even in the life of Gandhi there was fight between husband and wife, and the Gandhi one day drove his wife, "Get out from my home." So she was put into the street, and she began to cry, "Where shall I go?" And then Gandhi ans..., "Come on." Yes. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. The husband and wife may fight. It becomes a very serious thing, but don't take of it as serious. This is Hindu philosophy. Husband and wife quarrel should not be taken as very serious. They fight and again they live peacefully. Why this divorce? The divorce mean it kills the whole family life. The children goes away; the father goes away; the mother goes away. I have seen so many cases.

Amogha: Just like that girl who came two days ago, that Indian girl. Her parents were separated. Now she is living thousands of miles away with some boy. Prabhupāda: They are this part of Indian, the Fiji Indians. They have learned the art of divorce.

Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: The whole world is rascal. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. Take it for granted. This is the test. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). These rascals, they do not know what is his self-interest. He is simply enamored by the external energy and trying to make adjustment of things. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... He is a rascal, and his leader is also rascal. Te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. These rascals do not know they are bound up, hands and legs, by the laws of nature, and they are making solution, problem. Just like this geographer is making solution and all of a sudden will die. And then another rascal will come into that place to make solution. The problem will remain, and they will come and go. They will come and go. Napoleon came for solution, Hitler came for solution, Gandhi came for solution, but when Napoleon was offered a horse's urine instead of water, he could not make any solution.

When Gandhi was fired to death, he could not make a solution. And they were leaders for solution. What they can do? Every one of them is under strict laws of nature. As nature will do, they will have to submit. And what they will make? They are not independent. Nobody knows where is Hitler. Such a big man, he hid or he killed himself, something done, but nobody knows. And one day he become the master of the whole universe. This is going on.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Yes, I was appointed manager of a very big laboratory, Dr. Bose's laboratory.

Dr. Copeland: Ah, yes.

Prabhupāda: You know?

Dr. Copeland: I've heard of it. From another worker. While you were in the college or afterwards, did you participate in any political movements?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I joined this Gandhi's.

Dr. Copeland: You did? Had you met Gandhi?

Prabhupāda: I met several times, but not as personal interview. But I liked his movement, national movement.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Young men, everyone likes politics. (Dr. Copeland laughs) Actually, later on, I did not like. When I was mature, when I met my Guru Mahārāja, then I thought all these things bogus. It has nothing, no value. Social movement, political movement, they are simply wasting time. Real movement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Copeland: Why do you think a large number of people followed Gandhi? Why did they like him?

Prabhupāda: Well, large number of people followed Lenin. They are not important. Neither Lenin is important, nor their follower is important. So I don't think Gandhi's followers are as many as Lenin's. So these things are not important.

Dr. Copeland: But don't you look upon him as a religious man? Gandhi, religious man?

Prabhupāda: He was a politician. In the garb of. He consolidated the mass of Indian people, becoming a mahātmā, but he was not a mahātmā.

Dr. Copeland: Why not?

Prabhupāda: No. According to... Just see...

Amogha: Mahātmānas mām...

Prabhupāda: Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). We have to judge from this Bhagavad-gītā. Our test will be Bhagavad-gītā.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That—because you are student of history-Mahatma Gandhi's photograph with Gītā. Did he speak anything about Gītā or Kṛṣṇa in the history of his life? Then how he is mahātmā?

Dr. Copeland: People called him that.

Prabhupāda: People call, that is another thing. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that vox populi. The people may be asses; still, their votes are accepted. The people are trained up as the fourth-class, fifth-class men, and their votes are appre... This is the defect of the modern... They are not trained up as first-class men, and still, their votes are accepted. Therefore, even a very advanced country, America, there was mistake, Nixon. They elected him president. Then they dragged him down. That is the mistake. Yes.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Because we follow the standard. Just like a small child. He follows his parents, and he knows, "My parents are there." Therefore he has no worries. Is it not?

Dr. Copeland: Well, no. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: So we shall remain like a child, being protected by our predecessor. Then there is no worries. And if you want to manufacture something of your concocted brain, then there is worries. Just like Gandhi. Gandhi wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā, which is impossible. Therefore he had worries, because he wanted to prove something which is not in the Bhagavad-gītā, and still, he took Bhagavad-gītā as evidence.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter. Give me water.

Madhudviṣa: Fourth Chapter, 34th verse.

Amogha: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost."

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you give up the ācārya-paramparā system, then it is lost. Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. All the ācāryas will say like that, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. And Dr. Radhakrishnan, "No, no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see the fun. He has become more than the ācāryas. So we reject immediately. He thinks himself too proud that he defies the ācāryas. You see? This is the defect. The whole Bhagavad-gītā is spoken on the battlefield. Gandhi says it is nonviolence. Just see. (Dr. Copeland laughs) So we have to follow these people, do you mean to say?

Dr. Copeland: If you're measuring your success by the numbers of people, he had a lot of people too.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't take that, by number of people. We take how many people are taking actually. But neither... Ekaś candras tamo hanti: "If one man accepts, then he can become the bright moon." Na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ: "The so-called stars has no value." One moon is sufficient. So our preaching is: Let one man understand Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. We don't want disciples. I never collected disciples. I never compromised that "You can do whatever you like, and you become my disciple. "No. You have to follow this.

Radio Interview -- May 25, 1975, Fiji:

Interviewer: What would be the relevance of Kṛṣṇa's teaching in...

Prabhupāda: Relevance mean you are spirit soul. You are not this body. This thing first you have to understand. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is India's philosophy, that "I am spirit soul." And if you realize brahmāsmi, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na... (BG 18.54). As soon as you realize that you are not this material body, you are spirit soul, then immediately you become jolly, prasannātmā. Prasannātmā means na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He has no more any hankering for things which he does not possess, no more any lamenting which he has lost. Take, for example, that we have lost our portion of country as Pakistan and fighting since... This was a plan by the British government that divide them in such a way. They will perpetually fight. They will never be happy. This was their plan. That has been successful. But we are lamenting. Both... Pakistan is lamenting or not, I do not know, but Hindustan is lamenting. Gandhi was against this partition. But Jawaharlal Nehru, just to become prime minister, immediately divided.

So these things are going on. So lamenting, we have lost our... But if you take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very seriously, you can make the whole world Hindustan.

Interviewer: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: But you are trying, that's nice, but it will be never successful. You can write it down.

Yogi Bhajan: Well, perhaps it is very simple. Somebody has to break the ice.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yogi Bhajan: Somebody has to break the ice. Somebody, it doesn't matter who. Somebody has to go out and say, "You are welcome. Come in." And it has shown response. Even the prime minister has agreed to it. First she was not agreeing. And she is coming in Mexico.

Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi?

Yogi Bhajan: Um hm. She will be there on the 17th and 18th. So we are carrying that spirit.

Prabhupāda: The thing is everyone is trying to be united. That United Nation is for the last twenty years. They started in 1947, United Nations? Eh?

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: ...chanting, dancing. So this will rectify his philosophy. Chanting is so strong, it will send all philosophy to hell. (laughter) Vijāyate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. (break) You will come out triumphant of all others. (break) ...that is happening. What we are doing? We are not playing any magic. How this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is increasing?

Devotee: Yesterday I read in the newspaper that Indira Gandhi has been asked to step down from the prime ministership.

Prabhupāda: I heard it. Where is that paper?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah, so this morning you get a paper, okay?

Devotee: I'll try to get a paper. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...body comes in her place he will be another.

Devotee: Yes. (break) ...to step down, she's going to defy the court order.

Siddha-svarūpa: They never want to step down.

Prabhupāda: Like Nixon, like Nixon.

Morning Walk -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Fast. (break) ...in my childhood, I remember, I went to see football match in the Maidan.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Calcutta Maidan.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So when I was returning—of course, I was walking—throughout the whole... At that time our house was that Mullik's house. So from Maidan to Mahatma Gandhi Road I came. And all the watches throughout the road, the same time. Means every watch was, every clock was wrong. But I was going, so I, suppose I saw 5:10 here, then few steps away, 5:10, 5:10, 5:10, like that.

Bhavānanda: Not any more.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bhavānanda: In Calcutta it's not that way any more.

Prabhupāda: That's very strict in time?

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, amongst the mass of people in India, still there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not vanished. Because by culture, by taking birth in India that is inherent. India is so great.

Indian guest: The one problem over there: it's very hard to find a pure devotee or real...

Prabhupāda: Because their leaders have gone dead. The leaders are Jawaharlal Nehru and company.

Indian guest: They have destroyed. The Nehru family has destroyed India. He was atheist.

Prabhupāda: Even Gandhi, even Gandhi.

Indian guest: Gandhi believed in God, but Nehru didn't believe in God.

Prabhupāda: No, no, he does not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. Everyone believes in God. That is another thing, but one must know who is God. That is advancement. Here also, the people say, "God, God is great." But as soon God comes, "Here I have come," they don't believe it.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Occupying the churches?

Jayatīrtha: The Catholic churches.

Brahmānanda: They go on strike. They go there and they won't go out.

Prabhupāda: That is called Gandhi's policy.

Brahmānanda: Yes, gherao, or something like that.

Prabhupāda: It is called satyagraha.

Jayatīrtha: They are trying to get the Catholic church to support their demands.

Prabhupāda: That means Catholic church is supposed to support these prostitutes?

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Morning Walk -- June 27, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So my first business is how to be free from this repetition of accepting a material body. That they are not... A temporary life for fifty years or sixty years, they are busy, making very, very, gorgeous arrangement. This is asuric civilization. He does not take it very seriously that "I am encaged in this material body. My first business is how to get out of it and remain in my spiritual body." They get one type of body, and, like cats and dogs, engage, how to keep that body in sense gratification. That's all. (break) ...spiritual education, that "I am spiritual, spirit soul. I am encaged in this body. I want freedom. That is my first business, how to become liberated." No, that question set aside. Now, for the time being, we are walking here, and if there is some misunderstanding, we fight, forgetting that we have come here for walking, say, for half an hour. And why we shall forget our real business? That intelligence is not there. (break) ...India the Indira Gandhi was made as all in all. Now there is a catastrophe. We do not know what is going to happen.

Brahmānanda: They say she is the most powerful woman in the world. Prabhupāda: Yes, very powerful. Now she is going to hell, so powerful. She is so powerful, now she is going to hell.

Morning Walk -- June 28, 1975, Denver:

Satsvarūpa: Yes, I remember. In the hall they had all pictures of those activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Killing birds and fox.

Prabhupāda: That is aristocracy. (break) ...cannon, there was fight? Or this man is very famous hero? There was statue of Napoleon also in Paris. And they identify Napoleon and France, the same. But France is there; there is no Napoleon. (laughter) Napoleon finished, Hitler finished, Gandhi finished. (break)

Brahmānanda: That statue where Napoleon is, formerly there was another statue there of Louis XIV. So Napoleon, he pulled down that other statue and put his statue there.

Prabhupāda: And somebody will come... Just like in Karachi they have pulled down Gandhi's statue, and I do not know what statue they placed.

Morning Walk -- July 1, 1975, Denver:

Prabhupāda: So he is not out of danger.

Brahmānanda: Well, they're still investigating the whole thing.

Prabhupāda: But I heard that he made a condition that he will no more be bothered. On this condition, he agreed to resign. (break) ...India the trouble is dissention between Indira Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Nārāyaṇa. So that Jaya Prakash Nārāyaṇa is fasting, I have heard.

Brahmānanda: That gentleman said. The doctor said. He's seventy-nine years of age.

Prabhupāda: Seventy-nine?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Is there any danger to us from her arresting so many people?

Prabhupāda: No.

Morning Walk -- July 1, 1975, Denver:

Prabhupāda: So both of them are in distressed condition. I am thinking of writing them about Bhagavad-gītā. Do you think it is advised? They can...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Nixon would be more inclined to read it than Mrs. Gandhi. Because she already has rejected Hindu culture.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gandhi. I mean, she always turns towards the Muslims more.

Prabhupāda: No, no, she has guru. And she is going occasionally to Anandamayi.

Morning Walk -- July 6, 1975, Chicago:

Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...all ice. In the winter time, this becomes ice.

Prabhupāda: Become ice?

Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh? (break) ...walk?

Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Yes, everyone likes to go out and walk around on it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ice skating. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...was seeing in that paper, the meeting, a photograph of Jaya Prakash Narayana and Mrs. Gandhi. Both of the meetings were overcrowded. So who is right and who is wrong? People were hearings in throngs both of them. So? Who is wrong, who is right? (break)

Brahmānanda: ...newspaper report here was that the crowds who came to cheer Indira Gandhi that they were paid, paid crowds. They would pay them one rupee each.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? (laughter) Yes. That is for car or...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Car, yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...any bird called thunderbird?

Bahulāśva: Thunderbird? A big bird, big eagle, in the United States.

Prabhupāda: No, big eagle, thunderbird. You have seen in this car?

Brahmānanda: Automobile is called.

Prabhupāda: But actually is there any bird called thunderbird?

Jagadīśa: It's a legendary bird from Indian legend. American Indian.

Prabhupāda: Indian legend?

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Woman reporter: What about women who are leaders of countries such as your own country?

Prabhupāda: Well, according to Vedic conception woman is never offered leadership. But experience has shown that woman's leadership has not been successful.

Woman reporter: Do you think Mrs. Gandhi's leadership has not been successful?

Prabhupāda: Well, there is already trouble. There are many big, big men, they do not agree with her and she has taken emergency steps. So on the whole, the country is in trouble.

Woman reporter: What about Mrs. Meir, president of Israel?

Prabhupāda: I do not say of any particular woman, but according to Vedic civilization, we have never seen in the history that woman has become a leader.

Woman reporter: Women have been leaders.

Prabhupāda: They were not selected. The leader—formerly it was monarchy—the monarchs were selected by the advisory board of the first-class men. So they never selected any woman to become the leader of the society.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Reporter (3): You means she's not qualified as first, second, or third-class until she marries?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman requires to be protected—in childhood by the father, in youthhood by the husband, and in old age by the elderly sons.

Reporter (2): What is your feeling in regard to Mrs. Gandhi's actions in India at the present time, particularly in relation to what you're saying about women? Is what's happening there because she has a thirty-six ounce brain and is incapable of ruling?

Prabhupāda: Well, what is scientific proof, that is equally applicable to Mrs. Gandhi or to any ordinary woman.

Reporter: Is she having problems because she is a woman, though? If a man were in her position...

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why you are trying to put me in the emergency law? (laughter)

Room Conversation after Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Everything is passed by popular vote. But that is also defective.

Brahmānanda: You brought that out nicely by giving the example of Nixon. He received the largest popular vote of any president in the history, and he was also then pulled down.

Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi also. She got the largest number of vote...

Brahmānanda: Even more than her father she received.

Prabhupāda: So what is the value of these votes? If, by vote, if you select a wrong man and again you try to drag him down, then what is the use of this popular vote? Even in Communist country, the, what is called, Krushchev? He was the head. Now nobody knows where he is.

Morning Walk -- July 17, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Everyone. Mother's affection is natural. Now the civilized mother is killing child. This is your civilization. This is your religion, this is your science, philosophy—everything. And for this, you have created so many big, big buildings to create some less than animals. Civilization is finished unless you take to Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now dictatorship is coming, politics. The dictator can arrest anyone without any trial and stop him. Even their own circle, the Communists... Nobody knows where is Kruschev. Indira Gandhi is doing.

Brahmānanda: Even they arrest you for sleeping now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have got enough place to sleep, and they will come, "You cannot sleep." What is this civilization?

Dharmādhyakṣa: Indira Gandhi, she is taking instruction from the Russians. They are encouraging her to do all of this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is finished. (break) ...principle, strīṣu duṣṭāsu varṇa-saṅkaraḥ abhibavāt.

Morning Walk -- July 18, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Well, total or partial, that we shall see. But they must be used.

Bahulāśva: Now they like to blow them up in the ground. The scientists like to play by blowing them up in the ground.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or in the sea.

Bahulāśva: They create big disturbances.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...can be solved by understanding these three items: God is the proprietor; He is the enjoyer; He is friend of everyone. They are acting just the opposite way: "I am the proprietor; I am the enjoyer; I am the friend. Because I am God." This is their... Everyone is becoming friend—ultimately proves to be enemy of the country because he is not friend. President Nixon took votes by pretending friendship, and later on, he proved enemy. This is going on. Everyone knows. Gandhi pretended to become friend, but he proved to become an enemy. Otherwise why he was shot down? Unless one thought him as enemy, why he was shot down? This is going on. Nobody can become friend except Kṛṣṇa.

Press Conference at Airport -- July 28, 1975, Dallas:

Woman reporter: Would you comment on the political situation in India now. What do you think about Mrs. Gandhi's...?

Prabhupāda: Well, we are not very much concerned with political situation. But our proposition is—either political, social, economical or philosophical, anything—without Kṛṣṇa, it is all zero. So far Mrs. Gandhi is concerned, she is inclined to some spiritual understanding. So actually if she becomes very advanced spiritually, then this emergency situation will improve. Otherwise... and it is the public opinion against democracy. So democracy is not very much beneficial anywhere and everywhere. In your country also, you voted Mr. Nixon, democracy, but you were not satisfied with him. That means democracy, ordinary men they select somebody and again they try to bring him down. Why? When he was selected, it means it was a mistake. So according to Vedic civilization, there was no such thing as democracy. It was monarchy, but the monarchy means the king was very highly spiritually advanced. The king was called rājarṣi, means king, at the same time, saintly person. We have got another example in our country-Gandhi. When he was political leader, he was practically dictator, but because he was a man of very high moral character, people took him, accepted him as the dictator. So dictatorship is good, provided the dictator is highly qualified spiritually. That is the Vedic verdict. The battle of Kurukṣetra was there because Lord Kṛṣṇa wanted rājarṣi, Yudhiṣṭhira, should be on the head. So the king is supposed to be the representative of God. So he must be a godly person. Then it will be successful. That's all right.

Morning Walk -- July 29, 1975, Dallas:

Satsvarūpa: In a newspaper report, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about India, it said that the mass of people in the rural areas didn't even know that there was an emergency rule. They don't... It's so peaceful. They're not affected. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...of people, they do not care for these political things. Even in Gandhi's strong civil disobedience movement, out of the whole population of India, only sixty-thousand men joined. What is the India's population?

Brahmānanda: Six hundred million.

Prabhupāda: Six hundred million, and out of that sixty-thousand joined, and it became successful. Sixty thousand joined by statistics. Actually worker, I don't think more than ten thousand people. Exactly like Indian village. Here there is no business. They simply reside.

Morning Walk -- August 7, 1975, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: Well, that was the beginning, but he completed the finishing touch. Sometimes he came to Vṛndāvana—I was there, retired—to open a Ramakrishna Mission hospital, and he stayed there the whole day. He came in the morning and went back to New Delhi in the evening, but not a single temple he visited. Where thousands of men are coming to see the temple, but he, the prime minister, he did not visit not a single temple.

Indian Man (2): He accepted as spiritual master, some sort of... His teacher is Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi. So he was teaching him the same thing what he has learned. From here he learned all this knowledge which has spoiled our Indian culture?

Prabhupāda: No, Gandhi had no spiritual knowledge. He was little moralist. That's all. That was also good. But these men are not even moralist.

Indian Man (2): How can we fast move in India to spread our Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Indian Man (2): How can we spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: If we go village to village. The village people are still pure, at least not so polluted as the town people, or especially the so-called educated. (break) ...hari-kīrtana koro... (Bengali) We held this hari-kīrtana in Delhi, Calcutta, Bombay. Oh, at least fifteen to thirty thousand people were daily... Even from the office with coats and pants, they are dancing. And they asked me, "Swamiji, continue it."

Morning Walk -- August 12, 1975, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Even if you take so-called responsibility, you will not be allowed to carry it out. The example I was giving: Napoleon, Hitler, and Gandhi. They took responsibility, but they were driven away. What can I do? So what is the meaning of your responsibility? You will not be allowed to execute your responsibility. What remedy you have done that you will not be allowed, kicked out? Then where is your responsibility? Even if you are very nice gentleman—you have taken responsibility—but nature will not allow you to execute the responsibility. What is your answer to that? Big, big Napoleon, big, big Hitler, big, big Gandhi came and gone. Where is the responsibility executed? The Napoleon was given horse urine. You know? By the Britishers.

Morning Walk -- August 12, 1975, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes. At the last stage when he was asking for water he was given horse urine. He died like that. Hitler committed suicide. Gandhi was killed. So where is their responsibility? They falsely thinking, "Without me, everything will be lost." But they are kicked out; everything is going on.

Dhanañjaya: It's the same with President De Gaulle. President De Gaulle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, Nixon is there, but when he was on the office, he was thinking, "Without me America will go to hell." But he has gone to hell; America is there. (laughter) Just see. Just see the position of the... You can see the Nixon. When he was in the office, oh, he was a big man. He was responsible man. Now he is kicked out. He is begging, and America is going on. Where is the need of this responsibility? For several months he was asked that "You give up your responsibility." The rascal will not give: "No, without me America will go to hell." Just see. This is responsible.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...village... (Bengali) ...the cooperation... (Bengali) I like this position, dictatorship. Personally I like this. (Bengali) ...America... (Bengali) "What is your opinion about this?" Must criti... Yes, criticized policy of Indira Gandhi. (Bengali) ...is spiritually inclined. If she improves, it will be perfect. She wants to be improved.

Lalitā: This should be taken with...

Bhavananda: A most important piece of paper.

Prabhupāda: "Barefoot Swami draws admiring Kṛṣṇa crowd." And... Read that portion. (Bengali)

Lalitā: (Bengali) ...most prominent person in U.S. is Prabhupāda.

Brahmānanda: "Asked about the political situation in his native India and the criticized actions of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, the swami replied that 'Mrs. Gandhi is inclined to some spiritual understanding, and if she fully develops it the situation will improve. Democracy is not much beneficial if its leaders have no spiritual values. Mahatma Gandhi was practically a dictator, but he was a man of high moral character, so people accepted him. Dictatorship can be good provided the dictator is spiritually developed.' "

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Lalitā: You take this benefit. (Bengali) ...spiritually conscious, everything will be... (Bengali) But if it is the nasty things, the nasty and...

Prabhupāda: Politically it will be failure, but spiritually it will be successful.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Lalitā: (Bengali) ...American guru. Yesterday somebody came to me when I am just... (Bengali) ...Central Intelligence... (Bengali) ...whose house that Mr. Badiraja(?) house, and Guru Maharaj-ji is Indian or American. Twice they phoned from the prime minister's office. We are telling them in Bengali. From there, Calcutta, West Bengal. And I know, my grandfather knows him, and I told this. (Bengali) ...this American guru. And again and again they are phoning. I said, "No, no." (Bengali) What she will feel? She has got that power.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...she is spiritually inclined, therefore... (Bengali) "I know Mrs. Gandhi is spiritually inclined." (Bengali) By 1928 Jawaharlal Nehru, Congress President... (Bengali) "Dear Panditji, I want to go to Congress as a delegate. Please give me delegate ticket." (Bengali) "You don't require any ticket. You come here. You'll get it." Delegate's seats are... (Bengali)

Lalitā: You born... When Guru Maharaj born... (Bengali)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: 1896.

Lalitā: Somebody has reported that he is American and this and that.

Prabhupāda: No. (Bengali) ...Calcutta janma... (Bengali)

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Lalitā: I told you that Mr. Mani is Sai Baba's bhakta. So he is harassing, sending a letter and all. It's not especial any, that "Send to the member of ISKCON. They must leave." No. There is no report like that, but they are sending to say that he should learn and come to the Mr. Mani's bhakta of Sai Baba. (Bengali) There is nothing special. So if you are feeling better, then tomorrow or the day after tomorrow... (Bengali) ...can I mention that you must fit to see?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali) You know that? (Bengali) Between twelve to end of the day. (Bengali) Indira Gandhi... (Bengali) ...position plus spiritual knowledge, it will play wonderful in the world. (Bengali) Third-class, fourth-class rogue, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rājarṣayo. He must be royalty, at the same time great sage, saintly person. Then he will understand.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, she has got political situation, so that's all right. We should not record. We shall talk and photo can be taken. That's all. (Bengali) Where is my, that letter? I wrote one.

Brahmānanda: To Indira Gandhi?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I wrote one letter. When this trouble was there, so it came to my mind that, "Why there is trouble? All the leaders can follow Bhagavad-gītā and then things will be all right." So I sent that letter. Indira Gandhi letter. Here. What did I write?

Brahmānanda: "Your Excellency Śrīmatī Indira Gandhi." This is dated July 1st, 1975, from Evanston, Illinois.

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom I wrote it?

Brahmānanda: From Chicago.

Prabhupāda: Chicago.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So now what shall I write?

Lalitā: (Bengali) He was busy for the world organiza..., but he has left everything.

Prabhupāda: So shall I refer to your name? (Bengali) So take the... So "Your Excellency, Śrīmatī Indira Devi..." Indira Gandhi or Indira Devi?

Lalitā: "Indira Devi" (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: "Indira Devi Gandhi, when I was in Canada, in..." Montreal?

Brahmānanda: Toronto.

Prabhupāda: "When I was in Toronto, Canada, Śrīmatī Lalitā Devi, who is just like my daughter, sent me one intimation..."

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. "And by the sales proceeds I am bringing foreign exchange here." So I came here that she wants to see me, then why you are getting from me write...

Lalitā: (Bengali) Next time after the meeting... (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Read it. Read it, what I have said.

Brahmānanda: "Your Excellency Śrīmatī Indira Devi Gandhi. When I was in Toronto, Canada, Śrīmatī Lalitā Devi, who is just like my daughter, sent me one intimation that she approached you for a meeting for you and myself. And I have come here, postponing all my engagements. I am preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world on the basis of Kṛṣṇa's instructions in the Bhagavad-gītā. Actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is called the saṅkīrtana movement and sometimes called the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, which was inaugurated by Lord Caitanya in Bengal and throughout all India. His mission is that in India everyone should become a guru and preach all over the world."

Prabhupāda: Everyone in India.

Brahmānanda: "In India everyone should become a guru."

Prabhupāda: No, no. "Everyone should become a guru."

Morning Walk -- September 25, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Prabhupāda: No post is required.

Kartikeya: Only for applying the people.

Prabhupāda: Simply it is prize post. Nobody does anything. Simply they draw salary. All these ministers, they do nothing. Just like Indira Gandhi is supposed to be very big plan-maker. So what she has done for the people? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi)

Harikeśa: Whenever we have to go to a government office, there are six men sitting, and only one is doing work, and all are getting salaries.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Last time we stayed where? Nearby?

Kartikeya: Mehtabhai Patel's. It is a little bit away from this place, only one mile from here. That Dr. Patel and another Dr. Patel is there.

Prabhupāda: His father-in-law?

Kartikeya: Father-in-law. P.M. Patel. (break) They were trying to arrange if you'll come. (break)

Girirāja: One boy said he wants to join.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they should join. All will go to hell. That is not good. At least one or two may be saved. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- September 26, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Prabhupāda: No, no, where you get this idea that formless can give guidance? Where do you get this idea? Where is your experience? Your experience is as soon as there is guidance, there is a form. So how do you get this expe... Why do you talk something which is not within your experience, nobody's experience? As soon as you talk of guidance, there is form.

Indian man (3): But what is air?

Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all answer this. Why do you get this idea that a guidance comes from formless? Just like this government. We do not see that the guidance coming from the sky. There is Indira Gandhi; there is minister.

Indian man (3): But these are all in the material world.

Prabhupāda: So how do you say that guidance is coming from formless? Because you have no such experience, why do you say something which is not within your experience?

Morning Walk -- September 29, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Prabhupāda: Unless one is actually spiritually situated, this material center of happiness, maithunādi, that will go anywhere. You give any color, spiritual or religious or political. You see? Why Gandhi's āśrama failed? Do you know that? This is... When Gandhi was in jail, when he came back he saw all pregnant. You did not know that?

Kartikeya: No, we imagined, but we don't have information.

Prabhupāda: That what... Gandhi said, "What is this āśrama?"

Indian man (1): No, but Gandhi... He is well known, very well known.

Prabhupāda: He is well known.

Morning Walk -- September 29, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Indian man (2): Even in case of mother Desai, it was a classic incident, that his wife came one day to Gandhiji, that "This man is your personal writer but he is going on with another woman in your camp."

Prabhupāda: There are so many.

Indian man (2): "And he comes only because of that woman. Otherwise he is not willing to be your personal writer. So I have complained." Then Gandhiji said, "All right, when did you know it?" So she said, "I was thinking for the three months, but fifteen days before I came." "All right, Mahadeva, you come here. You will fast for fifteen days." And one week later (indistinct) Mahadeva Desai was that he wanted food very badly. So after seven days he was about to die. Then that woman, wife, came again, "Mahārāja I made a mistake. I made a complaint. All right. But now this man will die and where I will go?" (indistinct) "Then why have you made a complaint? So you can take off for seven days but you fast for seven days." So he is relieved.

Prabhupāda: One—there are so many cases. This Lilavati Munshi, this is the same thing. You know that? There is a big history behind this.

Morning Walk -- September 29, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Kartikeya: The failures are due to some basic reason. All the big people have failed, and they have not been able to deliver the country or anything because their moral character...

Prabhupāda: No, no, even they have delivered the country, these physical elements you cannot avoid. You cannot avoid unless you are on the transcendental platform, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you are on the physical platform, you cannot avoid. It is impossible. (Hindi) Gandhiji... (Hindi)... mistake. (Hindi) "And physical? Oh, you have done this? Fifteen days fasting."

Indian man (1): What is alternative? What do you do when...

Prabhupāda: No, no, alternative, that alternative will not correct. That is the defect of Gandhi's movement. He is supposed to be reading Bhagavad-gītā, but he has never said, recommended, Kṛṣṇa worship. That is the defect of his education. Rather, he denied the existence of Kṛṣṇa. "I don't believe if any person as Kṛṣṇa ever lived." This is his concept. Gandhi has written in his life that while his father was dying he was enjoying sex with his wife. You know that?

Indian man (2): Gandhiji?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he has written it.

Morning Walk -- September 29, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Prabhupāda: First of all we have to see that I learn that my position is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So why I am put into this body which is hanyamāna? (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Yes. (Hindi) They want to remain in darkness, and any leader who will keep him in the darkness in flowery language, he will be welcomed: "Oh, he is very good leader." "And this man is very conservative: 'Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.' " So here is freedom. "Whatever you like, you do"—here is freedom. If this rascal does not do what you do and you go to hell, that is their business. Kṛṣṇa therefore says, "You rascal, where is your freedom?" Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). First of all you see. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So where is your freedom? First of all get out of these things; then question of freedom. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. This is your knowledge, that "Where is my freedom? If I am under the rules and regulation of janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, then where is my freedom?" (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Simply rubber-stamped freedom will help me? Suppose I was dependent on British rule, and now I have become free. So will this help me to get freedom from janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi? Then where is my freedom? What are major questions, they have set aside. "Don't discuss all these things, and bother your head with trifle things." And our philosophy is that "Don't bother with these trifle things. Just seriously think of the major problems." This is our philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Teṣām ahaṁ samuddhartā mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt (BG 12.7). Samuddahartā, just to deliver them from this ocean of mṛtyu-saṁsāra. That is not care. Real freedom is given by him—that you don't care. (break) ...will be given by Kṛṣṇa. This is no freedom. Here the so-called freedom-giver, he has no freedom. And what he will give, freedom? Gandhiji preached so much about nonviolence, and nonviolence said, "All right, you have no freedom from nonviolence. You die." (Hindi) (break) ...is there, there is no question of freedom.

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have become more than Śaṅkarācārya.

Dr. Patel: They have seen the...

Prabhupāda: Just like later on, the Gandhi's disciples became more than Gandhi, more than Gandhi. That's all. Gandhi planned village organization, and Jawaharlal Nehru planned industrialization. And everything failed. There is no money, and he wanted to establish industry like America.

Dr. Patel: But he did not understand economics, sir. What is money after all? Money is nothing but the labor transformed into materials. We had the huge labor of sixty crores of people. He was capable of transforming that labor into material unfortunately and...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, they changed the Gandhi's program.

Dr. Patel: That is what Gandhi understood, but he did not.

Prabhupāda: How he can understand? He wanted to utilize to become prime minister.

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Now the village program of Gandhi is lost.

Dr. Patel: Absolutely. But whatever he has got, he had a lot of vidhi-niṣedha...

Prabhupāda: And it is lost because it was not God-centered. It is lost.

Dr. Patel: But he was God conscious. I mean, I have been brought up in that camp. Gandhi was a saint. But these people could not follow him. They have not understood him well. Those people who understood him, they died out. They died out.

Prabhupāda: Now, now, Gandhi's āśrama, was there any temple for worshiping Kṛṣṇa? No.

Dr. Patel: They had a temple. My wife was brought up there in the āśrama.

Prabhupāda: There was a temple?

Dr. Patel: In the morning they had to say prayer to Deva. (?) Gītā-mandir they had. They had all the characteristics of a good saint.

Prabhupāda: Why not from the beginning? No, no, no. Gandhi did not believe in Kṛṣṇa. No, yes, he has written, that "I know..."

Dr. Patel: Not that the way we believe, but he did believe.

Prabhupāda: No. That means he is right and we are wrong.

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, no other way.

Indian man (2): Gandhi was a politician.

Dr. Patel: He was not a politician. He was more a bhakta than a politician. He fell in politics. He was a saintly man turned into a politician. He was more a saintly man than a politician. He failed in politics. I have seen it.

Prabhupāda: No, he was studied by the governor of Bengal that "Either Gandhi is a saintly man amongst the politicians or he is a politician among the saintly persons." (laughter)

Dr. Patel: These people have not been able to understand Gandhi's intentions. It is the misfortune of this country they have not been able to carry out his message. Other people are able to carry out his messages. Other people of the world are able to understand him well, but we people are fools not to understand him. No. His socio-economic condition..., I mean, program. His program for lifting the society... You are religious head. He was a sort of a, another man, but in his own spirit he was doing a good work.

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And the body. But Gandhi has never said anywhere.

Dr. Patel: He was always, you know, anāsakta-yoga.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right, but...

Dr. Patel: He always used to, daily, twice...

Prabhupāda: In the beginning this is the... You can have any yoga, anāsakti or āsakti, but the primary instruction is one has to understand first of all this, that one is not this body. And the national movement is based on this bodily concept of life. "I am Indian."

Dr. Patel: All the national... All the world's on that body.

Prabhupāda: So that is the difference. First of all one has to understand that he is neither Indian nor American nor English. But if you go on pushing on national movement, where is the chance of understanding that you are not this body? Just like our movement, we never say anything national. We simply state that "You are not this body. You are spirit soul."

Dr. Patel: Gandhiji, when he went to one first round table conference in London, and he had to confront those women, I mean the wives of the workers of the Manchester mills, he said that "We are poor." They say, "We are poor. We are suffering for the poor of India." Then he had to give this argument that "Poors of India are much poorer than what you are." So he is trying to..., I mean, take a...

Prabhupāda: So that is bodily concept.

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No. I am talking about the Bhagavad-gītā,...

Dr. Patel: All right, Bhagavad-gītā. Whatever little we understand, we preach.

Prabhupāda: ...that the first principle of Bhagavad-gītā is to understand that "I am not this body."

Dr. Patel: Gandhiji's program was to emancipate the poor, downtrodden people of India in whatever way... In that way, in which there is no implication of falsehood.

Prabhupāda: No, it may not be falsehood, but...

Dr. Patel: It will be by the right way.

Prabhupāda: This may not be the right way.

Morning Walk -- October 3, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: Yathā mat tathā path. This is going on. Everyone will say something, and it is all right. However nonsense it may be, it is all right. Even Gandhi followed that philosophy. Therefore he invented one, another philosophy, nonviolence, which is impossible. When Hindus approached him, that "You have got so much influence over the Mohammedans, so why not stop cow killing?" he said, "It is their religious principle. How can I interfere?" Just see.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Kṛṣṇa orders in Bhagavad-gītā, go-rakṣya.

Prabhupāda: And he is considered to be a great scholar in Bhagavad-gītā, and when cow protection was requested, he said that "How can I do it? It is their religious principle." And he is a great big scholar in Bhagavad-gītā. All nonsense, going on. Whole world is full of nonsense, mūḍhas, beginning from Gandhi to any rascal, all of them, rascals. Perhaps it is the first time we are detecting, "Here are all rascals." It is first time. Then we are enemy of everyone. We call everyone rascal-Gandhi rascal, Vivekananda rascal, Aurobindo rascal. So actually they are, but people are thinking, "These people say all big, big men rascals? Therefore they are rascals."

Morning Walk -- October 9, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: I was talking just now that the Indians here are better situated than in India.

Indian man: Than in India. Correct.

Prabhupāda: Gandhi started his movement here. He was failure. But in India it is supposed to be successful. But at the present moment, after independence, Indians are very horribly situated.

Indian man: Very horribly situated.

Prabhupāda: They have no food even.

Indian man: Yeah. Is it because of the people?

Prabhupāda: May be. What is the cause, I do not wish to discuss. But you are better off here. I see.

Morning Walk -- Durban, October 13, 1975 :

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they brought tea from India and other places and sell it in America. Their whole policy was they exploit the whole world and bring money in London. That's all. And one who will do that, he will be honored by the state, given Earl of some small village. It has no value. Earl of this whole…, this man…, place, Lord of this. (laughter) A few acres of land and he is Lord of Chelmsford. And they will be given big, big post, governor, viceroy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why did Nehru, though… He was so closely associated with Gandhi, and Gandhi was for getting the foreign products out. Why did Nehru go so much against that policy? Why did Nehru?

Prabhupāda: No, Nehru, he was searching after some big post. That's all. All these political agitators, they want the big post, that's all. You give them big post, and they will be satisfied. They will no more agitate. Political agitators means they want some prize post from the government. That's all. Make them some minister, and they will be no more agitator.

Car ride from Durban to Johannesburg -- October 13, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: There is no authority. And Vivekananda said, "You manufacture your own God, whomever you like. Even you can worship stool as God." They say like that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But now the Indian government—if this is true—they are giving visas to the devotees, and that means they are favorable towards the movement more and more.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It may be due to my interview with Indira Gandhi. I appealed to her that "No Indians are joining, and these Europeans, Americans, they are helping me. And if they are asked to go away, then how shall I maintain the establishment? Indians are not coming." So they might have studied that "They are not politician, and this movement... Everyone will appreciate God consciousness. They are doing something," this consideration. Otherwise it is surprising. They have given three years.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It is very surprising.

Prabhupāda: It is very, very surprising.

Room Conversation with Reporter of The Star -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Capacity of the container. This is described in the Bhāgavata and the Caitanya-caritāmṛta also. Kṛṣṇa śakti vina nahe kṛṣṇa nāme pracāra: "Without Kṛṣṇa's special power of attorney, nobody can preach His name." Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So these rascals, Godbrothers, they are envious that... What he has written? Bon Mahārāja. Just see what kind of men they are. They are not even ordinary human being. They are envious of me, and what to speak of make a judgment by estimation? They're envious. Enviousness is immediately disqualification of Vaiṣṇava, immediate. He is not a human being. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ (SB 1.1.2). This Bhāgavatam is meant for the person who is completely not envious. That is the beginning. Why a Vaiṣṇava should be envious for anyone? Everyone is working according to his karma. He is trying to rectify him, that "Be out of these clutches of karma. You come to bhakti." Why he should be envious? Vāñchā-kalpatarubhyaś ca kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca. A Vaiṣṇava should be like ocean of mercy to reclaim the fallen souls. That is Vaiṣṇava's qualification. So Vaiṣṇava should be envious? Just see. So these persons, they are not even human being, what to speak of Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava cannot be envious. Vaiṣṇava should be: "Oh, my Lord's name is being broadcast. He is getting, giving so much service to make Kṛṣṇa known." That man has appreciated, that "All these spiritual leaders, they are deriding. You are the only man... You are... It enthuses us, give us more encouragement, that you are keeping intact, love of Kṛṣṇa." This is an appreciation. Why he should be envious? He should be, rather, very much enthused that "This single man is keeping Kṛṣṇa all over the world." And everyone is deriding. Even Gandhi is killing Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Radhakrishnan is killing. Their only business is to kill Kṛṣṇa. He is also doing that, our, this Bon Mahārāja. He never speaks of Kṛṣṇa. His rascal, that Institute of Indian Philosophy, nobody goes to urine(?) there. We see practically. And our temple is always filled up, five hundred men. And he is trying for the last forty years. He is simply planning: "This will be playground. This will be this ground. This will be this ground." And it is becoming jungle. Still, he is so envious, black snake. So one circular letter should be issued to all our center, that "Any Bon Mahārāja or anyone, his representative, should not be received." They are envious. Yes. Quoting that. We have got several complaints like that. Satsvarūpa also complained. Sometimes our order was cancelled by Bon Mahārāja's propaganda.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Indian man (1): They know the knowledge but they don't act according to that.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are not happy. Otherwise one who knows "I am Brahman," brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā—he will be happy always. That has become fashion. "Table chair brahma-jñāna," sitting on the table-chair, smoking and talking of Brahman. "Armchair brahma-jñāna." Although Kṛṣṇa is giving information, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu... mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param (BG 18.54), so they do not make further progress, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param, to achieve that platform of bhakti. Therefore it is as good as no knowledge. These will be the symptoms of brahma-jñāna, na śocati na kāṅ..., samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. If they have got brahma-jñāna, then why they should distinguish? Just like in our country, Mahatma Gandhi, so he is designated as mahātmā, but why he was against the Englishmen, to drive them away? That is not brahma-jñāna. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. They are as good. As these white people, they do not give any chance to the other people, so similarly, Mahatma Gandhi also, he wanted that "These white people should go away." So what is the distinction? The same knowledge. "You want me ... to drive me away; I want to drive you away." So what is the distinction between you and me? The one dog is barking at another dog; another dog is barking, another dog. That's all. Where is knowledge?

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is the change of understanding? It is natural. If you treat me as enemy, I treat you as enemy. That is natural. But brahma-jñāna means samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, that no distinction, "Everyone is Brahman." That is brahma-jñāna. What was the movement here of Mahatma Gandhi?

Indian man (1): There was a movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that movement?

Indian man (1): They used to call it...

Indian man (2): Satyagraha movement.

Indian man (1): Nonviolence.

Indian man (2): Fighting for the truth.

Prabhupāda: What was the truth?

Indian man (1): There was discriminatory laws against the Indians, trying to let them carry certain documents to identify that they are foreigners and all that type of things, not allowed to go in certain places where other people were allowed to go, and all those kind of laws, discriminatory laws, especially for the Indians. So he fought against them for the truth that everybody is equal in the eyes of God.

Prabhupāda: So? But it was not successful.

Morning Walk -- October 21, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: General consensus of opinion... Let them say that there will be no more death, and how it will act? General consensus of opinion... Let them vote, "We do not want death anymore." Will it be accepted?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? What is the value of your vote? You are madmen. Just like Gandhi made civil disobedience here, and government did not accept it. What could he do? (break) ...truth. If the majority says, "No, it is truth," it will be truth?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then untruth is untruth.

Morning Walk -- November 2, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: Unless the girl is grown up, she is not going to the husband. She remains with the father and mother. Sometimes they meet, and the wife is taught, giving some sweetmeat to the husband-official. Official. The parents of the girl: "Just go up to your husband and offer this." So she comes as obedient servant. But gradually they get the connection. In this way the love develops, and when they are fifteen, sixteen years old, they are allowed to live together. Because both of them have already developed that "She is my wife," "He is my husband," psychologically. And there was no question of divorce. The love is so strong, they cannot dream even that "I have to leave my wife," "I have to leave my husband." They cannot dream it. They may fight. The husband and wife fighting, that is not unusual. Therefore Canakya Paṇḍita says, "Fight between the husband, wife, never take it seriously." Daṁpatye kalahe caiva baṁbhāraṁbhe laghu-kriya: "They'll make all arambha, but it is not very important. Don't take." Next moment they will again live peacefully. So according to Indian culture, there is no divorce. There is no question of divorce. Both the husband and wife, they cannot dream of divorce. The love was so strong. Even Gandhi's life, he fought with his wife and pushed her out of the house: "Get out, I don't want you." And Kasturabhai, she began to cry on the street, "Where shall I go? You have driven me away." Then Gandhi said, "Come on." Finished. (laughter) He has written in his life.

Morning Walk -- November 3, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. These boys, European, American boys, they were misled from the very beginning of their life, but how they are improving in spiritual consciousness? The thing is we are not prepared to take up our own culture. That is...

Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. God must have some, something to fulfill.

Prabhupāda: Take for example our big leader, Mahātmā Gandhi. He was supposed to be very good scholar in Bhagavad-gītā. Did he ever preach that "You are not this body?"

Dr. Patel: I come from the ashram. Yes, he did.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of nationalism?

Dr. Patel: He never says... When he went to England...

Prabhupāda: Then why he asked the Europeans to go out? "Quit India."

Morning Walk -- November 14, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Voluntarily sannyāsa. All big, big kings in India, voluntarily: "Eh! Give it! Kick it out!" Mahārāja Bhārata, at the age of twenty-four years, he left everything, young wife, children, kingdom, whole world—gave it up. This is Indian culture, vairāgya. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, (Hindi) as soon as the grandson, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was major: "Take it. We are going." That is the fact. (Hindi) Even Mahatma (Gandhi). He declared himself mahātmā. He is such a mahātmā that unless he was killed by Goli(?), he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared. This is mahātmā, Kali-yūga ka mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). (Hindi) ...politics, politics, politics. (Hindi) ...nonviolence theory. Kṛṣṇa said, "You will die by violence. Nonviolence, there cannot be nonviolence. You wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā and criticize Me, Kṛṣṇa. All right, you die." Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: But it is a narrow sight that Kṛṣṇa was a war-mongerer. Mr. Nehru. He was more... Prabhupāda: Nehru is... What is his value? Dr. Patel: He said, "Kṛṣṇa is the greatest war-mongerer." Prabhupāda: Nehru and company are praised... That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhag... Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. A big animal is being eulogized by small animals. Does it mean a big animal is a human being? He's animal.

Morning Walk -- November 16, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Ah. Niskiñcananaṁ mahiyasam. It has to be understood from the same thing, tattva-darśinam. Otherwise it is not possible. You cannot speculate. If you say, as Gandhi said, "My Kṛṣṇa is of my imagination," that kind of knowledge has no value. What you are, your imagination? Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. Parataḥ svato vā. Vidya-bhāgavatavadhiḥ. If one reads Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then he gets the ultimate knowledge of everything. That is the ultimate end, limit of knowledge.

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: What is the question of mofices?(?) I am talking of...

Dr. Patel: India is made up of all villages and mofices(?). Cities are few.

Prabhupāda: So that is the cause of nonretirement.

Dr. Patel: I mean to my mind. It may be another cause also. I don't know. What do you think? Lack of proper education?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big men like Jawaharlal Nehru, Gandhi, they never retired.

Dr. Patel: Gandhi, as a matter of fact, retired long back. I mean the... As far as I know, he was not a member of the Congress.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It was everything.

Morning Walk -- November 20, 1975, Bombay:

Brahmānanda: This book is stories of different Russian scientists and politicians, philosophers, giving their appreciation of how they knew Nehru and...

Prabhupāda: Just to pacify Indira Gandhi.

Dr. Patel: Flattering.

Brahmānanda: So they've just presented this book.

Yaśomatīnandana: Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ.

Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19).

Dr. Patel: How they smuggled away the secret of atom smashing from America, these Russians?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dr. Patel: They smuggled away the secret of atom bomb from America.

Prabhupāda: The Germans.

Morning Walk -- November 29, 1975, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: What economical backwards?

Devotee (3): They say India is very poor country.

Prabhupāda: No. Indians economical backwards because they have given up their own culture. When India was actually standing on the old culture, they were never defeated. Even the Mohammedans, they ruled over India for eight hundred years, but they could not defeat the Indian culture. But the British government are clever. They spoiled the Indian culture. Therefore they are poverty-stricken. Otherwise if India would have continued in his own culture... The Gandhi started the boycott movement. So Indian culture automatically boycotted anything foreign. We know in our childhood nothing foreign-made could be used in some ceremony. Even this cloth, it must be country-made, that, what is called?

Haṁsadūta: Khadi.

Prabhupāda: Khadi, yes. No mill-made cloth can be used. That was Indian culture. They would not touch even foreign medicine. Dr. Bose, Kartick Chandra Bose, he told me that "You do not know how much we had to flatter to accept this British medicine." They would not touch quinine, anything foreign-made. This was Indian culture.

Morning Walk -- December 14, 1975, New Delhi:

Harikeśa: Yes, but dogs they have to lead a pretty miserable life.

Prabhupāda: But you have also, you have got, not living very happy life, this human society. There are others, even Indira Gandhi, she's always disturbed. Who is happy here? I saw personally. Oh, she is so disturbed. Everyone is unhappy. Who is happy here?

Harikeśa: I mean, you say that to anybody in America, they'll go, "I'm happy."

Prabhupāda: Everyone is unhappy, America, India, god or beast everyone is unhappy. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya, bhaya means fearfulness. That is unhappiness. Everyone is afraid what will happen next. This is unhappiness. So either you be Indira Gandhi or a street dog, that is nature's law. Nobody is happy. That they cannot understand that there is no happiness, and he's trying to make development for happiness. Actually there is no happiness. This is struggle for existence. Manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7), with the mind and the senses he's trying for happiness, but there is no happiness. That is called illusion. That is called illusion. There is no happiness and he's trying to get happiness. Happiness is beyond the senses, material senses. Sukham atyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam (BG 6.21), if you want real happiness that is transcendental happiness, not this sense happiness.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: There is no concoction.

Dr. Patel: This concoction has come out from there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, everywhere. In your country also there are so many parties...

Dr. Patel: Karl Marx...

Prabhupāda: Karl Marx maybe. Even your Gandhi-ism, that is also concoction. Gandhi invented nonviolence; it is also concoction. It is impossible. Everyone is doing this—something manufacturing. That is not sanātana dharma. Sanātana dharma is never manufactured. It is already there. You have to accept it, that's all. Otherwise everyone is manufacturing some conncoction. This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is teaching, "Fight." And Gandhi is teaching from Bhagavad-gītā nonviolence. Just see! Is it possible?

Dr. Patel: The will of God is the real thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. His will is supreme. Whatever He says, that's all. As soon as you manufacture, everything is spoiled.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā begins education, instruction. Immediately He puts forward that you are not this body. That is the beginning of education. Where is such education? Everyone is thinking, "You are this body." "You are Indian, you are American, you are Hindu, you are Muslim." What is education? Bhagavad-gītā says you are not this body. That is the beginning of education. And now education means be nationalist. Drive away and bark...

Dr. Patel: (something about passport in Hindi)

Prabhupāda: No, why passport? Even in our country, Mahātmā Gandhi was also infected: "Quit India." "Quit India."

Dr. Patel: No, he did not mean quit India. He meant "You quit your matter of ruling." I mean actually...

Prabhupāda: It was the exact word, "Quit India."

Conversation on Roof -- December 26, 1975, Sanand:

Prabhupāda: Everything, God's property. You enjoy for livelihood what is given to you. That's all. That is perfect philosophy. "I am the proprietor." That was the system in Vedic civilization. God is proprietor. King is the representative of God. He knows.... He gives you some land, that "You take this land, produce your livelihood, utilizing this land, and whatever you produce, one fourth give me." Not a fixed tax. "If you produce, one fourth is mine. If you don't produce, there is no tax." This was the system. And that includes all tax. No botheration. So people were God-fearing, honest, simple-dealing. So "I have produced a hundred mounds of rice. The king, you can take twenty-five mounds. That is my obligation." And king is also satisfied. By distributing that grain, he maintains the whole government. The real difficulty is all these rascals, they are not sufficiently educated. They are mūḍhas. And they are trying to solve the problems. That is not possible. That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are bound up. They're making adjustment, but.... Just like Gandhi. For making adjustment, all of a sudden a man came, (makes sound like gun) khat. Finished. Kennedy was making some adjustment. Somebody came and killed him. It is like that. What is the value of your adjustments? It will be finished after some days. Therefore the Russians, they support revolution. They said, "It is necessary." They admit the imperfectness. And occasional revolution makes it perfect. This is their idea of perfection. But they do not inquire that "What is that supreme power which makes our ideas of perfection imperfect?" These rascals, they do not never, do not ever inquire, "What is that power which forces to make our attempt frustrated, spoil, and make it imperfect?"