Prabhupāda: Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. You don't understand; simply you talk and discuss and hear, you become pious. Just like fire. You come to the fire, you understand it or not understand, you get warm. That facility is there. You don't require to understand how fire is produced, what is the chemical or physical constitution. You do it, understand or not understand. Just like you sit down on a car, motor car. You understand it or not understand it, what is the engineering of the car, but you run on. Similarly, kṛṣṇa-kathā, the simply, the simple method, if you kindly come and hear, then you will be pious. That is the first installment. You don't understand or don't follow, but if the injection is there you become pious. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. And if you give little attention, then the result will be hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi, all undesirable things that is accumulated within your heart, that will be cleared. Kṛṣṇa will help you.
Chemical (Conversations 1968 - 1974)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Journalist: I see, I see. So you have been, in a sense, spreading this word since 1933 on your own.
Prabhupāda: No. I'm spreading as missionary since nineteen hundred..., practically since '59.
Journalist: '59, I see. What did you do from the time...
Prabhupāda: I was a householder. I was doing business in medicine. Formerly, I was manager in a big chemical firm. But I was cultivating this knowledge although I was householder. I was publishing this Back to Godhead...
Journalist: So you were publishing that...
Prabhupāda: In India.
Journalist: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I started in 1947 under the order of my spiritual master. So whatever I was earning, I was spending. I was not getting any return, but I was distributing. So I was doing this business since a long time. But actually after giving up all connection with my family, I'm doing this work since 1959.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Interviewer: Now, you could say philosophical order, a cultural order. But the people...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Religious... If you say religious orders, there are many religious orders; they allow all these things. It is not exactly religious order. It is training of consciousness, because we are trying to put people in original, pure consciousness, which we call, technically, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like when rain is showered from the cloud, it is pure distilled water, but as soon as it is in touch with the earth, it is salty or so many chemicals are formed, similarly, original consciousness is pure, but when it is contaminated with matter, the consciousness is impure. So we are trying to purify the consciousness. That's all. That is our program. It is not a religious order. Consciousness is there in every living entity, and we are trying to purify his consciousness. When he comes to his original consciousness he becomes completely happy.
Allen Ginsberg: ...that salvation would also have to become easier and easier in the Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: That is very nice statement that in the Kali-yuga salvation is very easier. That is the version of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, but that process is this kīrtana, not LSD.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, it was... The reasoning there, was that for those who would only accept salvation in purely material form, in chemical form finally, and completely material form...
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So where is the salvation when there is...
Allen Ginsberg: ...that Kṛṣṇa had the humor to emerge as a pill.
Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that any of these material forms...
Allen Ginsberg: Yes?
Prabhupāda: ...then where it is salvation? It is illusion.
Allen Ginsberg: ...attachment during the...
Prabhupāda: Well, if you have got attachments for something material, then where is the cut-off attachment. LSD is a material chemical.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So if you have to take shelter of LSD then you take, I mean to say, help from the matters, so that is... How you can... How you are free from matter?
Allen Ginsberg: Well, the subjective experience is, while in the state of intoxication of LSD, also realizing that LSD is a material pill, and that it does not really matter.
Prabhupāda: So that is risky. That is risky.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (6): I am very grateful to you.
Prabhupāda: And there is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura-Prārthanā. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tare tyāge: "One who takes āśraya, shelter of a devotee, Kṛṣṇa does not give him up. Kṛṣṇa accepts him." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ... **. Because if that person who is giving shelter, if he's pleased, Kṛṣṇa is immediately... If he recommends a fool, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, here is a devotee," Kṛṣṇa will accept immediately. It doesn't matter whether he's a fool or rascal. Because he is recommended by representative, he will be accepted. Yasya pra... This is the meaning of yasya prasādad bhagavat-pra... Without his recommendation there is no entry in Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Yasya-prasādad na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. If he displeases Kṛṣṇa's representative he has no entrance to the Kṛṣṇa's kingdom, however learned he may be or whatever he may be. Immediately rejected. In a business office, suppose a secretary is there. A clerk does not accept the order of the secretary. Immediately he should be dismissed. In my personal experience, when I was young manager in a big chemical concern, one correspondent clerk, he disobeyed me. I reported to the head boss. He immediately came and he said, "Get out immediately from the office." And he wanted to plead in so many ways. Said, "No, I don't want. If you don't go out, then I shall call my doorman. He will forcibly get you out. Get out." I was sorry because this man is dismissed immediately, but he took. Disobedient... "Obedience is first discipline." So if Kṛṣṇa's representative is disobeyed—"Get out immediately." Kṛṣṇa is very strict.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Whenever there is sun, there is sunlight, immediately. Where there is light, immediately there is illumination. Just like a drop of poison. You just take a drop of poison as soon as it touches the tongue immediately it expands all over the whole body and it make the whole blood, water, dead. How it expands, a small grain of potassium cyanide? Simply a grain immediately (indistinct). If a material thing can have so much effect, immediately, the spiritual atom cannot do that? That is called science. Similarly, the biggest spiritual identity, Kṛṣṇa, He can become all-pervading. We are particle spiritual, spark. We have got limited power. (indistinct) Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam, "I become immediately expanded throughout My body." And He is unlimitedly big. So how much His consciousness is distributed all over the world? Sarva-jña. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is not abhijña. Svarāṭ. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheśv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). This example is nice. A grain of potassium cyanide is sufficient. There is no taste. The chemical characteristic of potassium cyanide, they have not mentioned the taste because as soon as there is taste, finished, they cannot... (laughter) He cannot say whether it is pungent or sweet. (laughter) Finished. So there is no taste. (end)
Prabhupāda: But those who are followers of the Vedas, they are accepting. Is it not, cow dung, pure? Cow dung pure, it is not accepted by the followers of Vedas?
Guest: That is.
Prabhupāda: And if you analyze chemically, you'll find the cow dung contains all antiseptic properties.
Prof. Kotovsky: This I don't know.
Prabhupāda: You do not know, but there is a...
Prof. Kotovsky: I have to test. This I do not know, but...
Guest: Yes, one must try to realize it...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that... That... One Dr. Ghosh, professor of medical college, Lal Mohan Ghosh, he... I was medically connected in my previous life. So that Lal Mohan Ghosh analyzed it, and, it is his statement, it is full of, I mean to say, antiseptic properties. So Vedic statements, even sometimes you find it is contradictory, but if you analyze scrutinizingly, you find it is correct.
Prabhupāda: There is sun, ultraviolet rays of the sun.
Śyāmasundara: How can you produce ultraviolet light except with electrical apparatus, electricity?
Prabhupāda: Light and heat, you cannot think of without fire.
Mensa Member: Fluorescence... certain chemicals.
Śyāmasundara: The origin is...
Dr. Weir: You're making...
Prabhupāda: There is no light, no heat without fire. That's a fact.
Mensa Member: Everybody (indistinct) I think.
Dr. Weir: Yeah, you see, that's the trouble. You can say really that there's no light or heat without an electrical movement that's as far as you need. You needn't go any farther.
Mensa Member: No, the point you were making is that the absolute source of everything is the sun. Was that...?
Prabhupāda: That is heat. That is fire.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: How it can be?
Bob: If you... When one studies science, one finds general tendencies of nature, and these general tendencies of nature point to a controlling force.
Prabhupāda: That I was explaining the other day. Where? In Madras, or where? "Who has supplied these chemicals?"
Śyāmasundara: Ah, in Madras.
Prabhupāda: I asked one chemist that according to chemical formula, hydrogen and oxygen mixed, it becomes water. Is it not?
Bob: That's true.
Prabhupāda: Now, this vast water in the Atlantic Ocean and Pacific Ocean, how much chemicals were required?
Bob: How much?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): And what did you do?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I was ordinary man. That's all.
Guest (1): Did you work?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I worked as a manager of a chemical concern in my family life. I have got my family also, my wife and children, my grandchildren, in Calcutta. But I have nothing to do with them.
Guest (1): And when did you start on...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. In 1960 practically, I left home.
Guest (1): You left Calcutta?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Say, for last twenty-two years.
Guest (1): And where did you go when you left Calcutta?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I retired in Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana you know?
Guest (1): Oh yes.
Prabhupāda: That... Just like from perspiration we are also creating water, but nobody is going to drink that water. Nobody is coming to lick my body, "Here is water." (laughter) That is not possible.
Devotee: Even if they mix hydrogen and oxygen to get water, still, where does the hydrogen and oxygen come from?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the chemical comes? Such vast sea water, so where you got so much chemical? Then the next question, that Who supplies the chemicals?
Martin: I've been there before. They all come down the same. They all come to the same place. You said that it is possible to see God eye-to-eye.
Prabhupāda: Yeah.
Martin: How can this be done?
Prabhupāda: You have to be qualified.
Ātreya Ṛṣi(?): This is the only way, but they are not willing to listen. Recently I was in Washington talking to the officials. Our company is making a project for the government, $7,000,000 to investigate what is the best way. And every way it costs thousands of dollars for each person, and it's not even guaranteed. And they take them out of heroin and they are putting them on methadone or some other chemical drug, and that's their method. They are spending thousands and thousands of dollars and the person goes back to addiction after several years. No success. Our program costs nothing, and the politicians don't want to listen.
Prabhupāda: No. Their policy is that they want to keep the people in that way-rascals and fools—then they'll vote and they'll enjoy the political power. That is their policy. Actually they do not want to see their countrymen elevated good character. They don't want to see. If the people become... Just like the British government in their time, they wanted to give education. Their education means A-B-C-D, half-mediocre, so that the government may be run on. They require clerks, servants, so much, not high education. As soon as there was question of high education, they stopped. And actually it so happened that as soon as the Indian people became highly educated and they learned the history of the world, they kicked them out. So these people, these rascals, Nixon and company, they want to keep the people in ignorance so that they'll get vote and enjoy. If the people become intelligent brāhmaṇas, then immediately he'll be kicked out. What is his value? He has no value. This is policy. They don't want to see that people become elevated in knowledge. That is not their policy. Therefore, they do not agree. Actually they are seeing that "These Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they're so nice character, they're religion, God conscious, so if all people become like this, then where we are?" Because as soon as people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they'll noncooperate with the slaughterhouse, liquor industry, gambling, illicit sex. They will noncooperate. Then the whole plan of civilization will be collapsed.
Prabhupāda: ...and peach, they are natural products from the jungle. Nobody goes to manufacture, automatically comes out. But when they are combined together, it is nectarean. None of them is manufactured by man, either this honey or the strawberry or the pineapple. Given by God. So in every step, you can perceive the hands of God. Every step. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This nice taste you cannot create by any chemical combination. It is not possible. Because God's hand is there, it has become so tasteful drink. Man cannot make. This flower, man cannot make. This fruit... Nothing man can make. This nice flower stick, how nicely it is made. So everything you can perceive the hands of God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When you perceive the hands of God, presence of God, presence of the energy of God, then you become happy. That is the way of happiness. In every step of life, you feel the hands of God. We are teaching..., this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means how to perceive, realize presence of God in everything. So there will be no disappointment. (to guests:) Take more? Go on eating. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything there is. Actually that is a fact. People are so foolish. They are not trained up to understand the presence of God in everything. So we are training that status of life to perceive presence of God in everything. In everything. (pause) This is called peach?
Prabhupāda: So you take it your things as fact, we take our fact. Why do you say my things utopian, yours fact? Similarly, I can say my fact, your utopian.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: For example, in chemical elements, the elements like helium, neon, argon, these are called inert gasses, these are called ideal gasses, because they behave ideally under the assumptions of scientific theories. It fits perfectly well to their theory, so they call these gasses ideal gasses. And gasses like oxygen, hydrogen, and nitrogen, these are nonideal gasses because they do not behave properly like helium or neon. So the (indistinct), first they develop the theory from these ideal gasses, and then when the theory doesn't fit to the gasses, like hydrogen and oxygen, they modify it. So they call these are nonideal gasses. So accordingly the theory is modified. They put certain numbers to adjust their modifications. So in all..., most scientific theories, they develop something that is called ideal; and from that ideality, they extrapolate these so-called other theories. That is almost in all scientific theories.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...planet, Vaikuṇṭha planet, and Kṛṣṇa comes to show us the ideal place in Vṛndāvana. The sample Vṛndāvana is here. So why do you say it is utopian?
Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) ideal. The material world isn't very ideal.
Prabhupāda: Our process of presentation is different. Their process is different. But they can appreciate that we know better than them. The same example: just like we accept cow dung is pure. Why pure? Because Vedas says. The scientific way is not like that. Is not that?
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They must prove by analysis, by chemical analysis. There is difference between the modern scientist and our process of understanding.
Gurudāsa: Dr. Kapoor has written an article about that, this question. The one that will be published.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Gurudāsa: The one that we will publish.
Prabhupāda: You have sent?
Gurudāsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Our process: Kṛṣṇa says that He is the Supreme, we accept. Not blindly—because other ācāryas, they also accept. Now some rascal is taking advantage of that statement, "If Kṛṣṇa can say, 'I am the Supreme, I am God,' so I can also say." Māyāvādī philosophy. (break) Swamis could not do anything, he was (indistinct). There are so many. Vivekananda went in 1893, three years before my birth, and what he has done?
Indian man: He returned converted.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real (indistinct).
Pañca-draviḍa: I was being trained up in this. For one-and-a-half years I was going to MIT in Boston and planning to go into this chemical, chemistry or chemical engineering or metallurgy, something like that. But I could see that actually the people around me, my student body, all the people in the school, they were so maladjusted and miserable that I decided "If this is the result of their scientific training that they are so miserable, I'm going to leave here immediately," and I did so. I got out as quickly as I could. (break) ...see that their training is just simply bringing them misery in life and, therefore, there is no purpose in acquiring such knowledge. And Prabhupāda describes it as being like the jewel on the hood of a snake, more dangerous.
Prabhupāda: Once I was invited to speak in that institution, MIT. So I questioned, "Where is your department of technology to understand the difference between dead body and living body?" So I spoke on this. So the students appreciated. After my lecture, they gathered around me. How do you explain? What is that technology, why the man is dead? Science is simply based on this bodily concept. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13).
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So in this way my connection became developed with Gauḍīya Maṭha. Then, gradually the process began, hariṣye tad-dhanaṁ śanaiḥ. (chuckles) I wanted to become very big businessman and there was good opportunity. I was very nicely associated with the chemical industry of India. Dr. Bose's laboratory, Bengal Chemical, V.K. Farr (?), and all of them, they liked my business organization. Then I started big laboratory in Lucknow. So that was golden days, but gradually everything becomes (indistinct). And at last, my Allahabad business was lost. It was not lost on account of some, my debts, I had to hand it over to Dr. Kartik Chandra Bose because I was his agent. So I had some debts, so I tell the, "All right, you take this business." In this way, that Prayāg Pharmacy was lost. So I was not going to, I was sitting at home, but this Jājābara Mahārāja, at that time Sarvesva (?) brahmacārī and Atulananda brahmacārī, they used to come to take their subscription, and they were requesting that "Why don't you come to our maṭha? Why don't you come to our maṭha? You are now free." So, I used to visit their temple.
Karandhara: Even it's produced by chemistry, there's laws...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: There's laws to those chemical reactions. They never consider who makes the laws?
Prabhupāda: Then? What is this? As soon as there is law, it must be considered that somebody made the law.
Karandhara: It's just a thief's mentality.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: If a thief comes on something valuable, he does not think who owns this. He simply thinks how he'll steal it.
Prabhupāda: That is thief's business.
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So they are all thieves.
Karandhara: They're almost like little animals, little cells. Not quite but almost. So they say that because that matter is almost like a little animal, therefore there must be just one little missing link, one chemical you can add, they're trying to isolate it.
Prabhupāda: That missing link is kicking you. That missing... Here, you say, you take this missing link.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are trying to make babies in a test tube.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In a few years.
Prabhupāda: What is that test tube?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the laboratory, the chemical laboratory, biological laboratory, so they'll take the combinations of the male and the female....
Prabhupāda: Then where is the test tube? It is taken from the living entities.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then where is the test tube? Test tube is a place for combination. As it is combined in the womb. So that is not advancement.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say rascals, simply.
Karandhara: Well they would say the chemical composition has been changed.
Prabhupāda: All right, give the chemicals. You are now advanced in knowing the chemicals. Inject the chemicals.
Brahmānanda: Knowledge means that you have to be able to demonstrate it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That... Otherwise what...
Brahmānanda: Otherwise, its' just...
Prabhupāda: Ācaraṇa. It is called ācaraṇa. Āpani ācari bhakti karila pracāra.
Brahmānanda: They should be able to demonstrate it in a laboratory.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Science says that: "observation and experiment." That is science. You observe how things are going on. And you experiment. Then it is perfect. But you cannot make experiment, you simply observe, that, a child also can also observe, and he can speak something nonsense. Just like in our childhood, we were observing the gramophone box, that within the box there is some man who's singing. And electric fan. I was thinking: There must be some ghost. Yes.
Prabhupāda: That means nonsense, that there is something else. Because the same tree, now it is growing, watering, but when it will be dead, you pour water... The medicine is the same. Why it is not doing now, and why it was doing formerly? Then what is the thing that is lacking in it?
Brahmānanda: Similarly, if there's a dead body and they just add some chemicals, that doesn't necessarily mean it will come alive again.
Prabhupāda: No. No. Chemicals are already there. If you say that the chemical is the cause of life, that chemicals are there. Because other lifes are coming. How do you say the chemical is wanting.
Brahmānanda: Don't they say that when death means chemicals are gone...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.
Brahmānanda: ...breakdown?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The life, the life energy, the heart...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Life energy, what is the cause of that life energy? Chemicals.
Brahmānanda: Chemicals remain.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that chemical is already there. Life energy is there. Because from the body, thousands of microbes are coming out. They're living entities. So you cannot say that the life energy is lacking there. No, it is already there. How can you say that life energy not there? Otherwise, how other life is coming. Not only one, thousands. So how do you say the life energy's lacking there? What do you think, Karandhara Prabhu?
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The life energy's already there.
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You cannot say the life energy's not there.
Prabhupāda: For the dead body means, that is a particular dead body. It is not the life energy. That is individuality. The life-energy—producing chemicals are already there. But that particular individual living entity has left. Just like I live in a room. So I leave this room. You cannot find me. But there are many other living entities there. There are ants, there are spider, there are so many. So that does not mean because I have left that room, it is lacking the accommodations. The accommodation is there. Other living entities are living there. I have left. I am individual. I have left. Therefore the individual soul is proved.
Karandhara: They do not know how that life energy comes or goes.
Prabhupāda: No. Life energy comes or... There is no question of coming and going.
Karandhara: Well coming into a body and leaving a body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means that is individual. That individual person is missing. He has left it.
Karandhara: Generally they conclude that it's an electro-chemical energy in the heart and that...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. That individual person has left. Other things are intact. Otherwise, how the living entities are coming out?
Karandhara: They don't think that if it's simply a chemical, why cannot they just get a chemical that's a person.
Prabhupāda: No. We refute that. The chemicals are already there. Otherwise how living entities are coming out? We don't say that chemical is missing. Because the same theory: conservation of energy. The chemicals, the energy-producing, that is already there. It may be in different form, but the life-producing-energy is there. Otherwise how the other living entities are coming out?
Karandhara: In a living, in a living entity in the living body, there are so many things, personality...
Prabhupāda: They have got personality, all the living entities coming out, the microbes. They have got their personality. If they're moving in this way, you stop. They'll move in this way.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in the same living body, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are innumerable small living entities. Like the cells themselves. They are living also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In my body, there are millions of living entities. In my intestines, there are so many worms. If they, if they become stronger, then whatever you eat, they eat it. You don't take any benefit out of it. Therefore those who are full with these hookworms, they eat very much, but they do not grow. They become lean and thin. But they are very much hungry because these living entities are eating, and he's feeling hungry. And he's eating, but he cannot take any benefit out of it. He's lean and thin. So already there are thousands and millions of living entities in my body. But they are individual, I am individual. I may be proprietor of this garden, but there are many millions of living entities living in this garden. Similarly I may be proprietor of this body, but many millions of living entities are living in my body. I know that. Otherwise, how hookworms coming out of my intestines? So you cannot say that the chemical is lacking. Chemical is not lacking.
Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect. That is called poor fund of knowledge. And as soon as we accept law-maker, we have to accept that He's a person, He has got brain. Therefore He can make laws. Just like the great ocean is working, but there is a law. It cannot come here. Although there is potency. At any second it can cover the whole city But there is a law. Just like state laws. Up to this. No more admission. You have to stop. Similarly, there is law of God. Where there is order: You mighty ocean, you cannot come beyond this. This is law. There is sun. "You must rise at half-past, at five o'clock in the morning." "Yes, sir." This is law. "You must rise on the Eastern side." "Yes, Sir." Not whimsically. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side, sometimes that side. Cannot do whimsically. That is law of nature. And behind the law of nature, there is the order-giver, law-maker. This is perfect knowledge. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My superintendence, the laws of nature is working." This is intelligence. We are teaching people this intelligence. That's all. We don't decry that your studying of the laws of nature is useless. We don't say that. We say: "Not so much. This is imperfect. Go forward still." And that is perfection. You are a science student. By your scientific knowledge, you prove that behind these laws, there is Kṛṣṇa. Then your scientific knowledge is perfect. Either from the chemical department or physical department or electrical department. Any department. It doesn't matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they're concluding, the scientists, that without having the real knowledge of their investigation. Because they are concluding that life started from matter, but there's no proof.
Prabhupāda: No proof. How they can say so? (pause) If they accept that life started from life, then they'll have to accept God, the Supreme Person. Just like by practical experience we see one life is produced by another life. The father, mother begets a child. Not that a child drops from the sky. Their test tube experiment also depends on the father and mother. So what is that? Where is the proof? In the test tube you mix some chemical and produce a child. Then your theory is all right. You cannot create even an ant, even a fly. And still you are claiming that you can manufacture human being?
Prabhupāda: But that is not advancement. That is wasting time. Suppose primitive man, he has got also sensual engagement. Does the primitive man has no sex life? He has got his woman. He has got sex life. The dog has got sex life. The cat has got sex life. You have got sex life. And because you have your sex life nicely dressed, you are advanced? This is foolishness. We have to see the result. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. These four things, eating, sleeping, sex life and defence, even you'll find in the birds and beasts. And you are, if you are engaged in these four things, in so-called scientific way, then where is your advancement? When death will come, your science will not save you. As the bird will not be saved, you'll not be saved. Then where is your advancement? You are going on the motor car, say, twenty miles. One bird can fly fifty miles. Even he's more expert. I have seen in the ship, the skylark they go equal speed. The ship is running on, twenty-five miles speed or thirty miles. They're going. So where is your expert? By nature, it is expert. Just like these dogs, they are jumping with great force in the ocean and they'll come back; similarly you also go with your surf, and again come back. Where is the difference between this dog and you? So you have to compare that where, where is your advancement of knowledge? Advancement of knowledge means to mitigate, minimize miseries of life. That is called advancement of knowledge. But you... The real miseries of life is birth, death, old age and disease. You cannot do anything. So where is your advancement of knowledge? The scientists cannot stop death, cannot stop birth. They are inventing so many chemical contraceptive methods. But the statistic is population is increasing. Even they're unsuccessful in this account. The statistics is that every minute or second, three persons are increasing all over the world. Where is your contraceptive? You cannot check even birth. Birth, de ... and Bhagavad-gītā says: "These are real problems, birth, death, old age and disease." So what you have done about these things? We have to see. Then we can accept that you are advanced.
Prabhupāda: Seaweed. The Chinese, China, China grass? What is called? China grass? Some foodstuff is sold in the stores, China grass?
Brahmānanda: Oh, yeah, I think they dry it...
Prabhupāda: No, they go under some chemical process. That gentleman, Mr. Patel, in Ahmedabad, whose guest I was, he's doing this business.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, this can be taken as food?
Prabhupāda: Yes. under some chemical process. No, as it is can be taken. The Japanese take it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is one of the targets of scientific research. They're going to find food from the ocean now.
Prabhupāda: There is already food. What is this? You are You have labor (indistinct). There is already food.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're going to find more.
Prabhupāda: Why more? Let them eat all the fishes first of all. Rascal, what more? They would take all the fishes and eat first, finish it. Then, then search for another. Simply rascaldom. Simply to take money from the government: "I'm making some research."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Emanations.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) How the sand is made? According to scientists?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: By the combination of, when one atom of silica, two atoms of oxygen. Called silicon dioxide, the chemical name, or silica. But this is existing as a silicate, as a salt of sodium, magnesium, silicate.
Prabhupāda: So there is salt in the water. So from that salt it is produced?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It reacts with the sodium, in the water, sodium in the water, in salt, that sodium reacts with silicic acid. So from sodium silicate, that becomes sand.
Karandhara: It's not rocks pounded down?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, rocks? Oh... No, we can make silicate very easily just by mixing the alkali, sodium and then acid, is just the reaction between the acid in the base. So forming an acid...
Prabhupāda: So far we know, there is this sand, combined with silicate of soda, makes glass.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will not say that they are taking from Kṛṣṇa. They'll say that they have created.
Prabhupāda: How they have created? You take the sand and mix with some chemicals, make glass. So you have not created the sand. The chemicals, you have not created. You have taken from the earth. So where is your creation?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that: "I have taken from the nature."
Prabhupāda: Eh? Nature? That means you have taken from somebody. You have not created. You have stolen. Thief you are. And we say: "Yes, you have taken from the nature, but every property of nature, that belongs to Kṛṣṇa." Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Īśāvāsyam, it is all God's creation. And that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yes... If one does not perform yajña, he's a thief. Yajña means acknowledging that things have been taken from Kṛṣṇa. And we must satisfy Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa, You have given so many things for our maintenance." This much acknowledgement Kṛṣṇa wants. That's all. Otherwise, what He can expect from you? What you are in His presence? Prasāda. Prasāda means acknowledging: "Kṛṣṇa, You have given us this foodstuff. So first of all You taste. Then we take." This much. Kṛṣṇa's not eating. He's not hungry. He's eating. Although He's not hungry, He can eat the whole world. Again produce it, as it is. That is Kṛṣṇa's power. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation). Kṛṣṇa is so perfect, that you take from Kṛṣṇa, whole Kṛṣṇa's energy, still the original energy's there. That is conservation of energy.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it like in mathematics, in chemistry, like they call formulas?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Just like symbolic: CH, square root, like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like in chemistry, for example, the molecule of Benzine. So you present it just like six lines, but a hexagon figure with a circle inside, they condense a lot of information.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a code, sūtra. But the chemical symbolic representation, that is understand by the specialist. But this sūtra can be understood by anyone. Just like athāto brahma jijñāsā. The meaning is: "Now, this is the time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth." So this is a question for everyone. Any intelligent man. Here we are understanding everything relatively. Relatively. Just like when I say: "Father," there must be one son... (break) ...truth, there must be one truth. In this way, this is, this world is relative truth.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Duality?
Prabhupāda: Dual... No, relative. Relative truth. You don't understand relative? Relative means you cannot understand anything without the other. That is called relative. Suppose if I say "good man," I cannot understand a good man without having another man, bad man. This is called relative truth. Is it clear or not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are two scientists working on how to make...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How to make chemicals for contraceptive. One is in Stanford. His name is Carl Geraldsey. And one is in Harvard. His name is Corey, E.J. Corey. They are quite famous now.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very famous now.
Prabhupāda: Because they gave contraceptives?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They are trying to make compounds, steroids.
Prabhupāda: Sterile. When all the scientists are not famous, notorious. Then this will be called notorious. Somebody has manufactured atomic weapon. Somebody has contraceptive. Somebody has synthetics.
Prabhupāda: Just like you Americans, you have covered so many thousands of miles. And you don't allow anyone. "No, you cannot enter. Here is gun." What is this nonsense? It is God's property. Why do you disallow others. Let them come. So there is no question of over-population. There are so much land in Australia, in Africa, here in America, that ten times of the present population can be provided. God has provided. But these rascals will not allow. So there is overpopulation in India, in China and other places, and there is problem. They are trying to occupy more land but you will not allow. Therefore war, there is war. So we create problems. Otherwise God has supplied us enough. You can use it; as much as you like you can use what you have... They are creating trouble and the scientists giving them, "Yes, I am giving you this chemical composition. You drop on the enemies' camp." This is scientific research, to impel the rascals. (laughter) The rascals, rogues, they are trying to usurp other's property, and the scientists helping them. That's all. If you help one murderer, if you help one thief, then you also become criminal. Is it not? So they are helping one another, all these thieves and rogues. Therefore there is so much trouble in the world. They are all criminals. Stena eva sa ucyate (BG 3.12). One who does not recognize the proprietorship of the Lord, he is a thief. Find out, take statistics how many people recognizes God. Take statistic. Everyone will say, "Eh! What is God, nonsense." Everyone will say.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I asked later on. I asked, that "Your topic is about origin of life, but you are not talking about the origin of life. So there is no basis of your argument."
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then I asked, "Supposing I give you the chemical materials, say, the molecules likes amino acids and the big molecules like DNA and RNA..." These are the molecules, which they think necessary for the maintenance of life. "Supposing I give you all these chemical compounds, then do you think that you will be able to put life into it. If you get all the chemical materials necessary, but will you be able to put life into it?" Then he said, "I do not know."
Prabhupāda: Then why you are talking nonsense? (laughter) Then? People did not laugh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. No, everybody was silent. Everybody was silent because everybody believes that life started from matter, all the, in the audience. So I said that "Your basis means life started from matter. That means..." He was saying that when the earth, before the life started, there was no living entities on earth. Then I said, "How do you know there is no living entities on earth?" Then he could not answer.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Very good. Yes. You have to go and lecture all the universities, calling these rascals fools. That will be our mission. They do not know anything and talking all nonsense. That's it. There was nobody to challenge till now. Now we are creating persons to challenge these rascals. That is our credit. Till now whatever nonsense they are talking, people thought, "Oh he is a big scientist." Now our scientist will protest against them, stop them talking all nonsense. That is what we want. If a lay man like me goes and protesting, he may say that "First of all you come to my level, then I shall talk with you." Now, he cannot talk with you like that. Because you are on the level. So challenge all this nonsense. Why they talk nonsense? So later on, other persons, they did not talk with you?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in other words, the matter cannot grow without a living force.
Prabhupāda: No, that is another branch of, I mean to say, accepting matter as life. We have to distinguish them, that life is superior than matter. That we have to accept. You cannot say both of them are all the same. No. We have to distinguish them as superior, inferior.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why the scientists, when they are trying to find out the origin of life, they are concerned only on the matter, the elements, chemical elements and the chemical compounds, the molecules, not on the superior energy.
Prabhupāda: No, there is superior energy. The same example. Just like because I am now living, I am eating something, going to the stomach, the chemical action is going on. If I am dead, it will not. Therefore life is superior. On account of presence of life, the foodstuff which we are taking, that is being divided into different chemicals, some urine, some stool, some blood, and they are being utilized differently. So how can you say? But without life, such distinction will not act. Therefore life is superior. Even accepting life is also matter.
Brahmānanda: It looks nice...
Prabhupāda: But as soon as gone, everything is finished. Why these rascals do not know? Why they cannot replace with chemicals to bring life again? Why these rascals are accepted, I do not know. If the matter is the cause of origin of life... Now one dead man, such a big man, such a Professor Einstein, big brain, he is dying. Put another chemical. Let him come back to life and work again. So why these rascals talk like this? You cannot protest? You should protest. Your protest will be accepted because our, they say that "You are not scientist. We cannot talk with you." That's all right. But here is a scientist. Talk with him. Where is your that material chemical by injecting which...? What do they say? What is wanting in the dead body that the body is dead?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That they do not know.
Prabhupāda: Then there are so many things they do not know. Still, they are scientists? And they are passing on as leaders of the society. Everything is "I do not know," and he is a leader, scientist. What is this? A child, and he is passing on as teacher.
Prabhupāda: But actually they suffer. Actually they suffer. Now, what is this research work? This is suffering, spending so much hard-earned money. So one of the cause of, I can say, one of the cause of cancer disease is this contraceptive method. You can make research on it. This is very dangerous stipulation, to use contraceptives. So they are, one side, discovering contraceptive medicine, contraceptive chemical; another side researching for cancer disease. And they say also that smoking is also one of the causes, smoking. So why do you not give up smoking? Smoking, illicit sex, contraceptive method.
Brahmānanda: From the meat-eating comes the heart disease.
Prabhupāda: From meat-eating?
Brahmānanda: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is a yogic process.
Prabhupāda: That is yogic process. Real yogic process is to find out Paramātmā, but side by side many other dormant powers become awakened. Another example, that tree is producing chemicals. So every living entity has got dormant potencies, more or less. So God, Kṛṣṇa, is the supreme living entity; therefore He has the full potency. God means full, complete. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). The best living entity, that is God. (pause) Is there any difficulty to understand the best living entity?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The best living entity?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that best living entity is God. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). That means the best controller, the supreme controller. Just like this man is controlling his dog, and that man is controlled by somebody else. In his office or where he works, he is controlled by his boss. And the dog is controlling the cat, the cat is controlling rat. In this way, one after another, there are controllers. I control you, he controls me, another controls him. In this way, you go on searching. When you find out somebody who controls but is not controlled by anyone, He is God. Where is the difficulty to understand? Everyone here we see that although a person is controller, at the same time he is controlled. Therefore the ideal living entity is, he controls but he is not controlled by others. That is supreme.
Prabhupāda: Aśoṣyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam. Adāhyaḥ.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But by putting proper chemicals, then they can see again. The ingredients necessary for the survival of the living entities, the necessary amounts, like source of protein, source of carbon, then the life is again started.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the life came?
Karandhara: It's not started. It becomes suitable again for the spirit soul. So they come.
Kṛṣṇa-Kāntī: They're just changing the living conditions.
Karandhara: Like if you put honey, ants will come.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good example. That does not mean the honey is producing ants. If life is coming from matter then why you are putting chemicals? That is also matter. Life will come.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say, without the chemicals, they cannot see life.
Prabhupāda: The chemical is also matter. Just like with one matter you make... Just like we mix so many matters. Turmeric, salt, spices, they are all matter. But mixing together, the condition is that it becomes a sweet vegetable. Similarly, the chemical is also matter. And water is also matter. So if life comes from matter, then it will come from the water. Why...? There is no use of mixing another chemicals? And it will actually be: Then let the water remain for some time. When it will decompose, the life will come. The stagnant water, life will come. Just like in the ocean, there are so many lives are coming out. Who is going to put the chemical? Nonsense. Where you have got so much chemical? And you can find out tons and tons, millions of tons of fish, but nobody went to give there the chemicals.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say, nature supplies the chemicals.
Prabhupāda: So therefore that nature's potency is acintya. That is beyond your calculation. That is our point. How nature is supplying, that you do not know. How there is very common thing. Just like from my body there are so many worms and germs will come out from the stool, there are so many worms. I am also producing life. I am not going to add some chemical. But the chemical is being supplied by me, by my potency. Otherwise, why so many worms are there in the stool? Hookworm and this worm and that worm? Sometimes from wood, what is called, termite? They come. And who is going to supply there chemical? And not from all wood. At a certain stage, it will come, without your adding chemicals.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The chemicals are already there.
Prabhupāda: Already there. Everywhere chemicals are there. When the suitable circumstance is complete, then there is life. Svedaja. They are called svedaja. By fermentation, by perspiration, life will come. Aṇḍaja. Aṇḍaja means coming from the egg. (end)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the chemists or the scientists, what they're thinking is, there are chemical elements, which are the materials necessary for staying the spirit soul within the..., so long as he is within the material world. So they're saying that these material elements—carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen—the main elements, somehow they combine together forming the living units, but our point is the chemicals are there, but in order to start the real nice house, the spirit soul has to enter within these chemical elements.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These chemical elements will already help him, by nature's way. Just like you put a seed on the earth. So other things necessary for fructifying that seed, that is already there. They will come to help it. That is already there. Just like the living entity in seed form is impregnated within the womb of the mother. The mother has got within the womb all ingredients. Body will develop. On account of the presence of the living entity, by the laws of nature, everything is there. A dog is forming dog's body, man is forming man's body. Why? Because everything is there. A cat is forming cat's body in the womb of the... Yathā yonir yathā bījam. You haven't got to search out. It is already there.
Prabhupāda: It is done. Just like sometimes I think that I came here alone without any expectation of success, and this movement has become so nice. Actually, by one man's effort it was not possible. But it has become so. This is acintya-śakti, Kṛṣṇa's, inconceivable. Even a modern businessman, he cannot organize such a worldwide organization in such short a time. We have talked with many businessmen in India. Some said, "We have got thirty branches," somebody says, "We have got forty," another twenty branches. Our students say "My Guru Mahārāja has 102 branches." So they say, "No, we cannot compare with your Guru Mahārāja." So this is acintya-śakti. You can see so many things, the acintya-śakti is working. So unless we accept acintya-śakti of God, it is not possible to understand what is God. Inconceivable potency. And that is actually a fact. We want to bring God to our level, that's frog philosophy. Atlantic Ocean to the level of well. That is foolishness. That is foolishness. We have to understand that this whole universe... Just like Arjuna saw the virāḍ-rūpa, universal form. So this whole universe is the form of the Lord. So if in my body there are so many chemicals, enzymes, and other things, so how much there must be, proportionately? Suppose if we find some portion of chemicals in my body, you will find less in the ant's body. Or you will find more in the elephant's body. So if I can create so many chemicals within my body, how much chemicals He can create? On that account... Your theory, that combination of hydrogen, oxygen makes water, that is a fact.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we say. That we also say.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But there are also non-living matters like crystals. They can grow. We can divide them, and it will reproduce like...
Prabhupāda: No, without living entity within, nothing can grow.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So some are saying that when they make these chemicals like the big molecules that we were talking about, DNA... And they are saying that DNA can make its own replication, means it can make another chain of molecules by its own. So they are saying that it is living.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And some are saying that it's not living.
Prabhupāda: That means their knowledge is imperfect. Somebody is saying something somebody is saying something. That means imperfect.
Paramahaṁsa: In the mountain?
Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. Mountains have been described in the Bhāgavata as the bones of God. These grasses are described as hairs on the body of God. These holes, there are holes, we saw that. They have been described as oceans. So in this way, this virāṭ, the biggest body. As the smallest body is producing chemical, similarly the biggest body also, producing chemical. A small tree, lemon tree, how many pounds of the citric acid it is produced?
Paramahaṁsa: I do not know.
Prabhupāda: No, producing, you know.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So if the tree can produce so much chemicals, how much the body of God can produce chemicals, we can imagine only. They are giving the theory that "From these chemicals life begins, or evolution begins." But wherefrom that chemical developed? That they do not know. That explanation is here, Kṛṣṇa: "I am the source."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that the material body started from elements, the chemical elements.
Prabhupāda: That we admit also. That we also admit. But on what basis?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And when the spirit soul, when the living entity reaches the human platform, then again goes back to the...
Prabhupāda: Do the rascals believe in the living entity?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they don't say living entity. Bodies.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Paramahaṁsa: Something akin to Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: The Buddhists also say that the body is like a house. You put the house together, you put the body together with chemicals. And when the bodies die, just like you take the house apart, all the wood, and then there is no more house... no more soul, no more life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called nirvāṇa. And with the chemicals you can build another house. Buddhists they do not give any information of the soul. That is Buddhism. What...? Oh, wet? (the ground?)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, it's dry.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Takes shower again and...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hasti-snāna. Therefore, knowledge giving, that is the beginning of spiritual life. Kṛṣṇa gives Arjuna, knowledge giving, that "You are not this body." This is the beginning of knowledge. What is that knowledge, all over the world? Where is that university? This preliminary knowledge which Kṛṣṇa begins, Bhagavad-gītā, where is that university? Svarūpa Dāmodara, where is that chemical laboratory or university?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is none in the universities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is the position of your education. There is no knowledge, and you are simply advertising, "Advancement of knowledge, university, PhD's, Nobel Prize holder." But they are all rascals. Fools' paradise. It is called, fools' paradise.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If the scientists know that we are not this body, then definitely the whole outlook will be changed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we want to do.
Prabhupāda: So you are writing book by chance. Then what is the value of your book?
Karandhara: The book is also by chance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone can write chance, so what is your credit? Anything nonsense can be written.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Monod is his name. He got Nobel Prize in 1965 from... He is Frenchman, physiologist. And his, chance and necessity about life, he said everything started by chance. So he is saying that by chance these chemicals combined together, forming these molecules, the basic molecules...
Prabhupāda: But wherefrom the molecules came?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: According to him it is simply by chance.
Prabhupāda: Chance. So everything is chance. So what is the necessity of your writing book?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then necessity arises, so these molecules re-orient, change as a fashion because of necessity.
Prabhupāda: Why? If everything is by chance, where is the necessity? What is the meaning? Let the chance take place. Why necessity?
Paramahaṁsa: He is hoping for another Nobel Prize by his chance.
Prabhupāda: All fools' paradise. That's all. Why do they send their children to school? Why not let them grow by chance? Is there any excuse if I say, "By chance I have violated this rule?" Is that the cause of excuse?
Prabhupāda: Here the acintya-śakti is working, this mist, fog. You have no power to drive it away. Beyond your power. You can explain with some juggling of words...
Passer-by: Good morning.
Prabhupāda: Good morning. ...that "Such chemicals, such molecules, such this, that," there are so many things. But (laughing) you have no power to drive it away.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. They have no explanation how the mist is formed. They call...
Prabhupāda: That you can do. That is, I can do also. It is not very great credit. But if you know how it is formed, then counteract it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We know how it is formed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you know, then you discover, counteracting. Just like formerly, in the warfare the atomic brahmāstra was thrown. On the other side... brahmāstra means excessive heat. So they caused something, they transformed into water. Because after heat, there must be water. So where is that science?
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Water can be counteracted by fire or air. Everyone knows it. So you do it, suspension. So this is for you mystic power. You can talk all nonsense, but you cannot act against it. Therefore it is mystic power. So similarly, there are so many things. That is acintya-śakti. You cannot think of even. By nature's way, immediately the sun rises—no more mist. All finished. A little temperature increase of the sun, all finished. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. This example is given in the Bhāgavata. Nīhāra, this is called nīhāra. Just like nīhāra is immediately dissipated by bhāskara, by the sun, similarly, if one can awaken his dormant devotion, then all finished, all his reaction of sinful activities, finished. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. You just create... You calculate sun is composition of this chemical, that chemical. Just create one sun and throw it. Simply theoretical future, bluff and juggling of words, that's not good.
Prabhupāda: When the body is dead, what thing is missing? Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: The body gets dead because every reaction comes to equilibrium.
Prabhupāda: (to Śyāmasundara) What is that?
Śyāmasundara: Every reaction, chemical reaction, comes to a standstill.
Prabhupāda: How? How is this?
Krishna Tiwari: Huh?
Prabhupāda: How it comes?
Krishna Tiwari: I think everyone understands that neither the reaction goes this way or that way. Things do not happen. And there's not one thing which controls it. There are millions of, you know, variables in it. There are lots of variables.
Śyāmasundara: So we see in the creation of God, it also traces back to the Creator.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation means the Creator. Just like when I see the picture of so many sculptor. So who has done it? I come to David. To appreciate the creation means you have to come to the point, appreciating the Creator. Otherwise, it is not finished. Or your knowledge is imperfect still. So these scientists, they are simply trying to study the creation. They have no knowledge about the Creator. That is the defect. Neither do they try, neither they can understand. They are so foolish and poor fund of knowledge. They should try to understand the Creator also. Then the knowledge is perfect. Just like the scientists, they are theorizing that life began from matter, chemicals. But wherefrom the chemicals came? That is insufficient knowledge. They say, "Chemicals existed." Now, we have no such experience... Just like we ate some purīs. Purīs had to be created. Not that existed. It is existing, but when I require, I have to create it. The crude example. The chemicals, wherefrom the chemicals came? That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā. In this way you have to study. Simply to study the creation, that is imperfect knowledge. When you come to the Creator, then it is perfect. Just like if you see simply his sculptures, so many things, that is not perfect knowledge. Why this book is "David Wynne"? Now, you go to the creator. And ...the all appreciation is there, credit is given there. That is perfect. Otherwise, you see, so many stones are there, figures are there. But when you study that "This is the creation of such and such artist, sculptor, and he's such and such," then that is perfect. Study him.
Prabhupāda: This is the opinion of the demoniac people, that the, there is no God, there is no controller, it has come into existence by chemical reaction, just like a child is born by sex intercourse, reaction of some chemicals. This is the demonic theory. But... What is the next? Go on.
Pradyumna:
- etāṁ dṛṣṭim avaṣṭabhya
- naṣṭātmāno 'lpa-buddhayaḥ
- prabhavanty ugra-karmāṇaḥ
- kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ
- (BG 16.9)
"Following such conclusion, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world."
Prabhupāda: So work is required. But godly persons, they want to live a simple life and high thinking, save time for understanding of God. The demonic people, they are engaged in horrible activities. They have manufactured so many things. So in this way... There are so many descriptions. Actually, by the increase of demoniac people, people are not very happy, and they are missing the ultimate goal of life. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They do not believe that there is an ultimate goal of life, there is life after death, and what kind of body he's going to get next. These things are not, neither in the university education curriculum, neither people are interested. So at the present moment... This is called Kali-yuga. So people are being misled. Actually, the human being, the form of human life, is distinct from animal life. So if we live like animals, then we are missing the chance. At the present moment, this is the position.
Prabhupāda: Just see. And therefore I say, "Cheater and cheated." Yes. Similarly, scientists also. Recently in Los Angeles, California University, one professor, a big scientist came. He's a Nobel Prize owner. He described, gave lecture. He has written one book, on which he has got Nobel Prize, Evolution of Chemicals. He wants to prove by chemical, combination of chemical, life has come into existence. That is his theory, like Darwin's theory, that life is from matter or chemical. So after hearing the lecture, there is a professor also, a student, yes. He is also Doctor of Chemistry. He is my disciple. He inquired that "If I give you all these chemicals, whether you can produce life?" At that time he said, "That I cannot say." Just see. He is proposing that "From these chemicals, life has begun," and when he is questioned whether by supplying these chemicals he can produce a life, he said, "That I cannot say." This is going on. Then what is the... Then, if you cannot say, then why you are saying that from these chemicals life has come? So when they are caught up for practical purposes, they'll deny. And they are passing on as philosopher, as scientist, priest, and these things. Just see. (someone comes in) What is that?
Prabhupāda: That means... these rascals, they have simply imperfect knowledge. Still, they are leader. That is our protest. That why you become leader? You have got so many imperfections. Why you are cheating people? That is our protest. You have no perfect knowledge. Still, you become leader. Why? Why you are cheating men like that? Just like the professor who was speaking that by four, combination of four chemicals, life has come. And as soon as he was challenged that: "If I give you these four chemicals, whether you can produce life?" He said: "That I cannot say." Then what is the use of speaking like that? So they're cheating, and people are being cheated. Still, they're given Nobel Prize. "Oh, here is a big man." They'll talk all nonsense. At, at the same time, they'll become professor, teacher. And people will accept. So at least let us protest against this system.
Prabhupāda: So this kind of longer life, what is the value?
David Lawrence: Yes, you know he had his body put into suspended animation. I don't know what they call it, cytology is it or something? They have them put into chemicals and bathed. Because he died of cancer and he wants to be woken up in about fifty years time when they've got the cure for cancer and then he can live again and make a few more films apparently. (laughter) It's extraordinary attitude to life isn't it really? One of the other problems that I was going to raise, and in fact it appears in the question sheet, it seems to be some, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, is that the right pronunciation? I always get these things wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhāgavatam.
David Lawrence: A very great deal of what one could call demonology if you like. Now, I confess this raises problems for me. When a book like that...
Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata was written five thousand years ago.
David Lawrence: Yes, very, very ancient. Is it to be taken, the references say to Pūtanā, is this to be taken...
Prabhupāda: It is also fact.
Prabhupāda: Cheating others.
Haṁsadūta: ...cheating others.
Prabhupāda: But that is going on. Recently it happened in Los Angeles, one big professor came to lecture there, and he has got Nobel Prize. I forgot his name. He has written one book, Chemical Evolution. So he was speaking on that Chemical Evolution, and his theory is life begins from four chemicals. So he gave lectures. After that, there is one student. He's also Doctor in Chemistry. He's my disciple. So he asked that professor that: "If I give you the chemicals, will you be able to produce life?" He replied: "That I cannot say." He says that life begins from these four chemicals. And he lectured hours. And when he was asked: "Suppose I give you these four chemicals, will you be able to produce life?" He answered, "That I cannot say." Just see. Is it not cheating? He's, he's saying that life is produced from these chemicals.
Dr. Hauser: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And when he's offered these chemicals, he's not certain whether he'll be able to produce life. Is it not cheating?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Dr. Hauser: He's jumping to conclusions.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, he's not certain about producing life from those chemicals. But still he's lecturing. Is it not cheating?
Dr. Hauser: Not cheating, no...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. Because he cannot produce life. Actually, he cannot, but he's lecturing on this basis.
Dr. Hauser: But he has produced four stages of life.
Prabhupāda: Ehh?
Dr. Hauser: Not real life, but the proteins that life is made of...
Prabhupāda: But we are concerned with the real life. We are consider, concerned with the real life. If you can produce one real life, a small ant, not human being, then I shall think that you are successful in your program. But that you cannot do. Why do you talk nonsense? Therefore you are cheating. Why should he say: "That I cannot say," if he's not confident. That means cheating. Everyone is doing that. He's not confident about his theory, and he's speaking long, long speech. And people are fools. They are hearing. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading many blind man. What is the benefit? The leader has no eyes, and he's leading many blind men. What is the use?
Dr. Hauser: Hmm. Yes.
Prabhupāda: And these so-called scientists will reply: "Yes, we are trying. In future..." In future, everyone can expect future. But the hearsay is that: "Trust no future, however pleasant." Why future? In past we could not do. At present we cannot not do. What is the guarantee that in future we'll be able to do? There is no history that anyone has produced life from chemicals. What do your, what do you think, that life is a product of chemicals? Do you mean to say?
Dr. Hauser: That is what I've been taught. Yes. About the evolution of the earth. And...
Prabhupāda: Therefore, if...
Dr. Hauser: ...all the different stages of life.
Prabhupāda: Do you think that's a fact...
Dr. Hauser: It's not a fact. I don't know whether it's a fact. I... But that's...
Prabhupāda: Then that means illusioned. You are not confident, but you accept that theory. This is illusion.
Dr. Hauser: But... Yes. But...
Prabhupāda: But you should apply your reason, from practical life, whether life is produced from matter, or matter is produced from life. Our proposition is: matter is produced from life, not life is produced from matter. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is said: janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Absolute Truth is that from whom or from which everything emanates. Now that Absolute Truth, whether he's life or dead stone. So that is discussed: janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). That Absolute Truth must be cognizant. So as soon as you say cognizant, then He's alive. Abhijñaḥ. That, that means if I say: "I have produced all these things that is within the room," then means I must have brain. I must be experienced how to do it. How I can be dead, matter? Has the matter has got such thing? The origin of creation must be a living being.
Prabhupāda: Useless. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. It is already taken. Nirūpita means there is no argument. It is already concluded.
Guest (1): Your business is not to prove or disprove, but to glorify Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. By your knowledge. If you are scientist, you are chemist, through chemical challenge you try to glorify the Supreme Lord. If you are physicist, from physical point of view, try to explain. If you are scientist... Anyway, because ultimate... Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Any knowledge, that is... You have to approve the Supreme. That is real perfect knowledge. And at the present moment men of knowledge they are rejecting. Because they cannot explain, they are rejecting. They do not bother.
Prabhupāda: That is special favor. In the beginning I was thinking, "Now my godbrothers, they have taken sannyāsa. They are begging from door to door. Why shall I beg? Let me earn money and start Kṛṣṇa consciousness." But that never happened. So I had to... I was obliged to take the dress of my godbrothers and preach, instead of earning money. Yes. Some astrologer told me that I should have been a man like a Birla. And I got all those chances in the chemical line, to become... Now I am bigger than Birla. That's all right. But even in business field, there were signs that in money things... I got so many good chances. But everything... Dr. Kartika Candra Bose he appreciated my activities, "Very intelligent boy." He certified to my father-in-law. This is the way of becoming rich man.
Śyāmasundara: People stopped purchasing...?
Prabhupāda: No. Just like Dr. Bose's laboratory. So Dr. Bose's laboratory, I was manager. Then I took his agency, very good terms. I was earning money like anything. But the next manager, he became envious. He began to poison Dr. Bose, to cut off our relationship. So it happened. Then, when I was Dr. Bose's agent, I become so much famous that Bengal Chemical, the biggest chemical factory, he, they wanted to give me the agency. If I would have taken that agency, I would have been the richest man in the chemical world. You see. But they made some condition. So I did not accept it. I wanted in my condition. That is the very little... But I was puffed-up, that "I am such a big... And this man is flattering. So I must get my condition fulfilled." So I did not accept it. The Smith Stanstreet gave me agency. Because in my work, in Dr. Bose's laboratory, I did it very creditably. So every other manufacturers, they became attracted to me, how to get me. The Smith Stanstreet Company, Bikepala(?) Company, Bose's, Bengal Chemical Company, they all wanted me. And I thought, "Oh, everyone wants me." So, so I refused. And later on there was a clique between Dr. Bose and me. So I lost everything. Then I started my own laboratory. Somehow or other, there was something, and...
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Manufacturing?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is small manufacturing. So I got very, very good chance. But Kṛṣṇa did not allow it. He wanted me to come to this point. That is my practical experience. And now I'm seeing that it is Kṛṣṇa's so much favor. You see? Yasyāham, anugṛhnāmi... It is, it is, actually it is His grace. "What he'll do by becoming Birla, rich man like Birla?" That was Kṛṣṇa's plan. "Come here. Do this work." You see. My Guru Mahārāja ordered. Kṛṣṇa wanted. I was resisting Him. That's all. I was actually very expert businessman in chemical line. I did it very creditably in Bose's laboratory as manager and my own business. And everyone knows... Even in manufacturing also.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah, with that same experience now you've organized a world-wide society...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Some books. Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Publish...
Prabhupāda: That intelligence gives me, Kṛṣṇa, "You do this." Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. Yes. And in my materialistic life, He was taking away my intelligence. Just like this Bose, Bengal Chemical agency, I should have accepted immediately. Such a big concern. Simply by sitting, I would have brought ten thousand rupees per month in those days. But there was no good intelligence. I thought, "No, I cannot accept your terms. You must accept..." Because I was at that time young man, puffed-up, no brain, no sober brain. They were so attracted with me. They would have given later on all facilities, but I did not accept. Similarly, Smith Stanstreet, they were also very good company.
Śyāmasundara: Smith's...?
Prabhupāda: Smith Stanstreet, an English company. They gave me an agency. So some of my enemy... He was my, he was my employer, but he gave information that I am also manufacturing now, drug and chemical works. So they informed them that "He's pushing his own goods, not your goods." They... He wanted that agency. Yes. In this way, because as soon as you come in the... Even in the spiritual field, my godbrothers are envious. You see? So as soon as you become successful, there will be many enemies. That is natural. That is the sign of success. In your business, if there are many enemies, competitor, that means you are successful. So anyway, Kṛṣṇa has brought me to the right path. So I may not fall down. That's all. (laughter) When I was reading this verse, that yasyāham anugṛhnāmi hariṣye tad dhanaṁ śanaiḥ (SB 10.88.8), Kṛṣṇa said that "When I show somebody My special favor, I take away all his money," I became shuddered, "So Kṛṣṇa will take my all money? If He's..." And actually that happened. He took my all money, all family, all friends and everything. (laughs) And He asked me, "Go to America. You'll get many money, much money, many friends. You go ahead, Come here." Yes. That was His intention. And I was sticking to limited money, limited friends, limited society. This is special favor.
Prabhupāda: You see still, gases, I mean to say, cloud is forming in the sky. But you have no eyes to see it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: With this background before, then that is why they start saying that before Darwin's theory there should be one. That is called chemical evolution. That is called pre-biotic-chemistry. Means before biological evolution started there should be chemical evolution.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that chemical evolution is part of life demonstration. That I have already explained. Just like the chemical, citric acid, coming from lemon tree, a life. It is coming. So all chemicals are being produced... Just like in your body, in my body, there are so many chemicals. Because the body is there, the chemicals are coming. In my urine you will find so much, so many chemicals. In my stool you will find so many chemicals. Wherefrom the chemicals coming? Daily, enzymes, so many other chemicals are coming. Simply the medical man analyzes the urine, and so many chemicals are there. Wherefrom it came? Because I am living entity, the chemicals are coming in my urine, in my stool, in my cough, in my secretion. It is coming. Therefore it is concluded that chemicals are produced by life, not life is produced by chemicals.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are saying that once the seed of life, that is, the cells, the living cells, are built, then it continues automatically.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but who gives the seed? That is answered in Bhagavad-gītā. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (Bg 7.10). Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. He gives the seeds, and He is life.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, yes, That's it. A potter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This idea Śrīla Prabhupāda, about the chemical evolution, this idea came from, I think, in 1920 by a Russian scientist. He is a biologist. His name is Oparin. So he demonstrated that before biological evolution the atmosphere of the earth should be, he called, very much reducing. Reducing, that means it must be mostly full of hydrogens, no oxygen, very little oxygen, but mostly hydrogen. Then in due course because of the reaction in these hydrogen compounds and the radiation from the sunlight, then these compounds form into different chemicals which are...
Prabhupāda: That is a side study. But there was hydrogen. Wherefrom the hydrogen came? The scientists, simply they study in the middle. But they do not know what is the origin. Just like here is one aeroplane is coming, and you can say, "All of a sudden a light came out of the sea." Is that the study of this aeroplane? If we... the foolish person will see, "All of a sudden, in the sea there was a light." Is that scientific study? So your study is like that. "There was this, and all of a sudden, by chance..." That's it. That is not scientific study. We have to find out the original cause.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am saying therefore, disease, not "This disease" or "That disease." Disease mean any kind of disease. That is credit. That is credit. If you guarantee that "Here is a chemical composition; when a man takes it, no more disease," that is credit. But you cannot do that. Then where is your credit? You simply struggle. The struggle we increase. That's all. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We shall come down? The water is coming or...?
Karandhara: Looks like the water is coming up, Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The waves are very big.
Prabhupāda: Now, such a huge quantity of coloring, wherefrom coming, red color? And it will disappear after few minutes. Have you got any control over it, scientist?
Karandhara: Now there is a big scarcity of dye, coloring dye.
Prabhupāda: Ah, take from here red color. Yes, they can increase the scarcity. That's all. That is in their power.
Hṛdayānanda: That which is spreading consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that thing which is spreading consciousness?
Hṛdayānanda: So if they say it is the chemical, but they can't do that, they can't...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you put the chemicals. Just like I have sent my car, it is not running, so they know how it will run. They know. Therefore I say, "But if you do not know, you're speaking nonsense. You do not know anything." And as soon as you are captured, you say "Yes, in future I shall know." What is this? The same, postdated blank check, which has no value. Will the postdated check, will it be accepted by anyone? Suppose you give me a postdated check. If I'm paying, what is this nonsense? This is all nonsense. "Future." (devotees laugh) No future, sir. Immediately. Cash payment.
Hṛdayānanda: So that's cheating.
Prabhupāda: Ah. That is cheating.
Devotee (2): By their own laws.
Prabhupāda: No, no, not that. It is different subject. That something is missing within the body, therefore it is dead. So what is your answer? We say something is missing. We shall decide what is that something later on. That something is missing. If you suggest that something is chemical combination, then you do it. Therefore do not know. I say something is missing. If you know, then you replace that something, then you'll know.
Karandhara: What do we say that something is?
Prabhupāda: No... That everyone, any layman can understand, that this dead body is unconscious because something is missing. Any layman can understand. If you know that, then you replace it. I don't say I know, but I say something is missing.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: You have to accept also that. But if you know that something, then you replace it. Otherwise you also do not know. Then why you are talking of big, big word? You do not know.
Prabhupāda: Unless she become atheist how you can stay in that post? She must be atheist. Or she may not be atheist, but for political reasons she must become atheist. Otherwise she cannot maintain her post. All these politicians, they are simply duplicity. Actually they are something else, but in political post they must show themselves as something else. This is politics.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When Nehru said that all factories, chemical factories and these iron factories are our temples, these are our temples.
Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru was a big atheist too, he openly declared.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he was first-class atheist. Now he has become a dog. Yes, some astrologer has said. He has become a dog in Sweden. A man has got two dogs. Out of the two he is one.
Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is quite believable.
Devotee: Did you work for Jagadishacandra Bose too?
Prabhupāda: No, no. I worked for Dr. Dr. K.C. Bose, under whose name the street is going on, Dr. Karttikacandra Bose. He's also famous man, this Bose. He was the, I mean to say, the starter of this Bengal Chemical Company.
Yaśomatīnandana: Oh yes, they are a big company.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Bose's labora... Practically chemical industry was...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think it was Acarya Prafullacandra Raya, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that starting of chemical industry in the Bengali...?
Prabhupāda: Acarya Prafullacandra Raya was one of the director and this K.C. Bose was a managing director. Actually the life was given by Dr. Karttikacandra Bose to Bengal Chemical. But because Prafullacandra Raya was a famous chemist and he was attached to it, therefore his name become famous.
Hṛdayānanda: So if you can produce something, that means you actually understand it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that it is a combination of such and such chemicals... Just like these rascals say, "Life..." Now he said that "You take the chemicals. Can you produce?" He said, "That I cannot say." You see? Avoiding the issue. This was discussed in the meeting. What is that gentleman?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Professor Stanley Miller. He's from San Diego, physicist.
Prabhupāda: Miller. Yes, he has got Nobel Prize. And his theory is that from chemicals, life has begun. So he said in the meeting that "If I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" He said, "That I cannot say." Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize. He has no pure idea, still he has received the Nobel Prize.
Prajāpati: Number one speculator.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prajāpati: They're giving prize to the number one speculator.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. Jugglery of words. That's all. Speculation means jugglery of words. Just like doctors prescribe. They give the medicine, and then water mixed. So they will never say "water" because ordinary people will understand. They'll write "aqua distillata." So ordinary man cannot understand whether it is water or medicine. But that is water. But they'll... So these scientists, they'll manufacture some word which you cannot understand... "Vyāghra mane śārdūla." One student asked the teacher, "What is the meaning of 'vyāghra' ?" He said, "Śārdūla." It is still difficult. You see ? This is going on.
Prabhupāda: ...is contamination. Just like when a person is diseased, you find so many extra chemicals in his body. So a diseased person produces such chemicals, not that chemicals are the agents for his life. Try to understand. When a living entity is pure, when he becomes impure, these chemicals are produced out of... Exactly the same thing, just like when a man becomes contaminated, infected with some disease, you will find so many extra things, germs and chemicals in his body. So these extra chemicals, germs, are not responsible for his living condition. Because he is living and because in an awkward condition, therefore these things have been produced by him.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But how about the normal chemicals which are...
Prabhupāda: Normal chemicals must be. Then of the whole world... The material world is made of chemicals. So wherever you go and see, the chemicals in different, what is called, element, they are present. You cannot see but chemicals because you have no eyes to see the soul. So you simply see the chemicals which is produced by the soul. Just like anything you keep for some time, when it is decomposed, you find so many chemicals, extra. So now they are mistaking. The chemicals are not... They are effects, they are not cause. When a thing is decomposed, you'll find so many extra chemicals. Our point is that because a thing is decomposed, so many chemicals come out, not that on account of these chemicals it has given... A dead body. A dead body—not that because the chemicals have come, therefore he is dead, no. Because the body is dead, therefore so many chemicals have been produced. Try to convince this rascal like that, that "You are seeing the extra chemicals. They are not cause, they are effect." Sometimes when a rascal cannot understand two things, which is cause and which is effect, they misunderstand effect as cause or cause and effect. That is imperfect knowledge, illusion, taking the effect as cause. That is their mistake. Whole basic principle of their knowledge is mistake, illusion, on account of imperfect senses, and they are cheating. On account of imperfect senses, they cannot understand what is cause and what is effect. And without knowledge, they have become teacher. Therefore they are not teacher but cheater. This is the conclusion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even if these chemicals are made, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the environment is not favorable to enter the soul, then the chemicals...
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say on account of the environment, these chemicals are produced. Therefore I say. When a man is diseased—the environment has changed-other extra chemicals comes out. It is the environment. I am also pointing out that. The environment is the cause. Chemicals produced in the body of a dead body, you cannot produce in the laboratory because the environment is different. Unless you find out a dead body, that chemicals you cannot manufacture. How can you find out the chemicals of dead body in a living body? Get up. Yes. (laughing) So pay; then the chemical is produced. Without payment, then there is no chemical. Cause is the payment. These rascals, they do not understand this. (break) ...goes to fight in Vietnam, what is the philosophy? Who will answer?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to stop spread of communism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, now America has to do the same thing to stop demonism. Then your nation will be leader. You understand; you have trust in God. Now it is your business to trust in real God and work for Him. You cannot... I have explained already. You cannot stop communism. You have to stop demonism. That is your real business. Communism is another type of demonism. So if you remain a demon, so what is the use of stopping another demonism? The same example: stool, the upside is dried up. You cannot say, "Because it is upside of stool, it is better side." Stool is stool. Guer ei pita en opita. (?) (dog barking loudly) Come on. That's all right. He cannot make the condition of the world better by... Just like Professor Kotofsky. He was saying that there must be revolution. I was talking of authority. So the authority you must have to accept. So he said that authority is accepted upon revolution.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Because I said about authority... So this is fact. Now, in Russia the authority was the Czar. Now, after this Bolshevik revolution, Lenin became authority. That was his point. I said that you have to accept one authority. That you cannot change. That he said, that "Yes, that I accept, but authority has to be changed by revolution." And yes, we accept that. But the ult... When you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness authority, then there is no more necessity of change." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Everyone is trying to achieve the greatest profit. So when he gets Kṛṣṇa, he is satisfied. No more profit. Final profit. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. So there is no more necessity of revolution because that is the ultimate peaceful condition. So if you do not come to the ultimate condition of peace, then this revolutionary method will go on, continue. There will be no cessation of revolution, one after, one... That is māyā, illusion. I am thinking by going a few steps, mirage, I will get the water. But there is no water at all. It is simply illusion. And as soon as you go a few steps forward, you see that the water has gone away, again, few steps forward. You go again. Again you see. This is going on. So animal, they go forward after the mirage. But a sensible man, he knows that "This is not water. It appears like water, but it is not water." Therefore we are making revolution, changing one authority from another, but we do not know they are not authorities. Real authority is Kṛṣṇa. That is their... Therefore it is called illusion or māyā. We are thinking that "From this ism to that ism." Just like there was French Revolution. So the French people are not happy. Still there is unhappiness. Similarly, Bolshevism. We have seen practically in Moscow. Nobody is happy. There cannot be happiness. This is going on. So real happiness is Kṛṣṇa. That, people should know. The chemical evolution also, it is also māyā. They are thinking by further improvement, just like you were speaking, almost come to the point... That "almost coming to the point," that will continue. You will never come to the point. This is the position. You'll never come to the right point.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the concept of chemical evolution, when this fails, then they have to accept that there is a Supreme Being. This will also fail.
Prabhupāda: No, this will fail. It is already failed. But because they are...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but they are still hoping.
Prabhupāda: ...they are fools and rascals, they are still hoping against hope. That's it. It is already failed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are not fully convinced yet.
Prabhupāda: Because they are not intelligent. There is a Bengali word, dekhe sekhe teke seke. (?) Mean when one who is intelligent, he is seeing the things, he is understanding, "Oh, the consequence of such action is this." So... And another man is so fool. Unless he is actually in that position, he will not learn. One is learning by seeing only and another is learning by actually being in that position. So who is intelligent?
Yaśomatīnandana: One who is learning by seeing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One who knows that these material things, it has got a beginning and it has got an end... In every day we see that. Even with our body we see that it has a beginning and it has an end. I have seen my father was born and he died. So I am also born; I'll also die. My son is also born; my son will die. This is real experience. But if somebody says that "I shall not die. We are trying to become immortal," so that is foolishness. That is foolishness. By experience from time immemorial, historical reference, there is no such thing as immortality. But if somebody says, "By chemical evolution we shall become immortal..." Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness proposition is that human life is meant for factual knowledge or ultimate knowledge. But these rascals are checking that progress. That means the prerogative of human life is being denied to the human society. So this kind of hindrances should be stopped, either by soliciting or even by force, because the human society is being ruined. These things have to be stopped. Therefore I was inquiring that "Why American went to Vietnam?" To stop communism, but that sort of stopping will not make any solution. We have to stop demoniac civilization. Then the human society will be happy and in normal condition.
Prabhupāda: Then? He'll die. That is another thing. He'll die. Why he'll die? What is that condition? If you say, "chemical condition," now, as chemist, if you say, "The chemical condition has changed," we'll reply, "No chemical condition has changed." So produce life. No chemical condition has changed because life will come out immediately. So many germs and worms, they will come out. So where is the chemical condition of producing life is changed? How can you say? But that life is not coming. That Mr. John, his life is not coming. Therefore he is an individual soul. Otherwise the chemical condition is there. Otherwise how these germs and worms are coming out? But Mr. John is not coming. Therefore it is conclusion that "This is individual soul. He has gone, but he is not coming." But other living beings are coming out.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the condition of the soul, innumerable souls, within the body? Like the cells. All are living cells. These all contain individual souls.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Since I am conditioned in this material body...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, as soon as I condition, I create an environment which is material. Therefore these so-called scientists, they have no eyes to see the spirit. They take this material condition as the cause of the spirit. And then again, when they find that in spite of presence of these chemicals, the life is not there, they are bewildered. They say, "Yes, we are trying to improve." Therefore they do not find the cells in the dead body.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the cells are also dead in a dead body.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, they do not find it. Cells may be dead or they do not find the cells, whatever it may be, but it was dependent on the life. (break) ...with my so many servants. When I die, the servants also go away. So you cannot say that "He was living because the servants were there." You cannot say.
Devotee: I don't accept it.
Prabhupāda: Then? No sane man will accept. The so-called scientists, begin, all beginning is like that. "There were chemicals, these chemicals." Now wherefrom these chemicals came? Who placed these chemicals? They do not ask. Because they are fools, the other fools bluff them and they accept it. But we are not going to accept. We shall inquire. And that is human intelligence.
Girirāja: But they may say "Where did God come from?"
Prabhupāda: No, no, God, not "come from." By experience you are speaking that things are... Just like the explosion. Explosion was there because God was there. Therefore God is there. The explosion cannot take place by chance, all of a sudden. There was somebody, some brain, and that brain is God. Because you say all of a sudden there was explosion, therefore that is the proof of existence of God. Is it clear or not?
Girirāja: Yes.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: But have you tasted that tasteless water? (laughter)
Gurukṛpā: If it is so tasteless, why is it quenching?
Karandhara: If someone gives you a glass of water and you drink it, you immediately know what it is.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say the taste of water depends on the amount of chemicals contained in the water.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. So that is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa. The tastefulness. Tastefulness of water is Kṛṣṇa. Not the water.
Bahulāśva: People have such a clouded idea of what is God, Śrīla Prabhupāda. When you explain it, it's very real.
Gurukṛpā: Prabhupāda, the other day you mentioned that during the eating activities, during sex activity, there is increase of breathing.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, one after another, problem will come.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Coming to the brain again, the, some people are working. Why some people are insane? For example, the mechanism of working the brain, some of the chemical pathways, they say, change, block. So some people become insane.
Prabhupāda: Insane? Then he cannot work. That's all. Even if I give you good machine... Just like I do not know how to work on it, so similarly, if one does not know how to work, then it is useless machine.
Karandhara: They are thinking that by certain types of chemicals they can correct things like depression and unhappiness. They say it's all just a chemical situation in the brain.
Prabhupāda: But that they propose so many nonsense things, but they cannot do anything.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are making experiments on rats now.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. They will go on experimenting life after life. That is their foolishness.
Sudāmā: They believe it's very necessary.
Prabhupāda: They believe because they're rascals. Why necessary? We are not meat-eaters, why it is necessary? You have created necessary. Tongue. Tār madhye jihvā ati lobhamoy sudurmati: "The tongue is very greedy and it does not satisfy." Therefore they create their necessity. Civilized human, how they can eat meat? It is meant for the cats, dogs, tigers, not for human beings. So they're not human beings even. Actually they're animals. What religion animals may have? (break) ...Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, from one seed, a small, such a big tree has come, and within that seed there are the potency of demonstrating how variegatedness, nicely, within that seed. You produce such things? Make by chemical composition something and sow it and a tree will come out like this?
Bali Mardana: We will have it next year.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bali Mardana: Next year we will have it.
Prabhupāda: Next year?
Bali Mardana: Yes, we are working on it.
Prabhupāda: So, within the dob there is water.
Bali-mardana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So who supplied the chemicals?
Bali-mardana: Within the dob?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bali-mardana: The chemist. The supreme chemist.
Prabhupāda: So that is our theologist's... What is their explanation?
Bali-mardana: They say the water is from the ground. By the roots, it is drawn up to the dob.
Prabhupāda: I understand that. But the chemical is being supplied from the root?
Bali-mardana: Yes. Just like when there is no water they say the tree will die.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Bali-mardana: When there is no rain, the plant life cannot live. So they say that the water is drawn from the root to nourish the plant. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...water is drawn, then the question will be how the water is drawn?
Guest (1): No! I never said LSD... Why you are putting...?
Prabhupāda: No, no. When they started gañjā... When they started gañjā... They were scientific men. They wanted to make scientific chemicals out of it.
Dr. Patel: That's right. That's right. That is the right thing. I mean, truth you must have...
Prabhupāda: But the...
Dr. Patel: Don't talk all these things. I cannot tolerate a lie, falsehood of banias (?). I am a first-class enemy of falsehood. For truth I am prepared to get hanged. That is very wrong to tell that LSD was invented in India.
Guest (1): No, I never said that LSD...
Dr. Patel: Tum bola (?).
Guest (1): No, no, no, no, no. That is a... (Hindi) That is the mistake, you see, of the...
Dr. Patel: All right, I am quiet. Lay down now. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: No, actually, this is a fact. This gañjā smoking, they have learned from India.
Dr. Patel: But I held in a little more temper than that also. When somebody tells a wrong thing.
Prabhupāda: No, this gañjā, gañjā went from here.
Dr. Patel: That, because it is produced in India.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they made a chemical composition of gañjā. That is LSD.
Dr. Patel: No, no. LSD is not chemical. It is a synthetic.
Prabhupāda: Therefore similar effect. Because they are scientific. So instead of importing gañjā from India, they invented some chemical composition...
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) out of these boys. They smoke even in the classrooms, in their residences...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...in their university camps and everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Now it is going to be legalized.
Prabhupāda: The only question is that first of all, keep your life. Then you cure another life. Life in you is already there. Now keep it. Protect it by some machine or by some chemical. Then you talk all this nonsense. What do you think, Viṣṇujana Mahārāja?
Viṣṇujana: At the fairs in the United States, they have exhibits of what the scientists are doing, and one scientist has actually invented a machine... Costs one hundred thousand dollars, and this machine can take the head of a man from his body and keep the brain cells still going, and they expect that this machine, they expect, they haven't done it to anyone because no one will do it...
Prabhupāda: That expectation is always there. Any fool can expect anything. That is another thing.
Sudāmā Vipra: You're right. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's... Svarūpa Dāmodara asked the scientist that, "You are beginning life from chemicals. Suppose I give you chemicals, can you make life?" "That I cannot say." This is their proposal. This is their... All rascals. And they're wasting public money and making other fools. They're going to the Candraloka and this loka, Venus. Simply wasting time. This remark I gave in the newspaper sometimes in San Francisco...
Siddha-svarūpānanda: When they asked about the moon.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. It is simply waste of time and energy. That's all. And in 1968 I wrote that Easy Journey: "And this is all childish."
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Sputniks.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Have you read that?
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Yes. It is very nice.
Prabhupāda: So we can boldly say on the strength of Vedic literature that all these attempts are childish and those who are attempting, they're all fools and rascals. That's all. Now they're silent about moon expedition. They're trying to go to Venus. What happened to moon, moon planet?
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Yeah right.
Prabhupāda: Another diversion. That's all.
Devotee: They don't pray God, who has made all of this.
Prabhupāda: No, that one, I mean to say, rogue, thief, came to a bank manager. Somewhere in Western countries. And he brought some lotions. So he said that "I shall mix up these lotions. Immediately the whole bank will be blown up." So he became afraid because the scientists do that. So... "So you give me check immediately, two hundred millions or something, otherwise I'll mix it." So he gave him that check. And... Because they were... "It is time bomb. If you call police or arrest me within this time, then it will blown up." So in this way, he took away the check. And after sometimes, he phoned to the police, "This is the situation. Come and help us. Here is a time bomb on my table." So police came. They also took it very carefully in the chemical laboratory. And in the chemical lab, they were also afraid. Then they saw it is glycerin. That's all. Such fools are there. You see. It is simply exploiting the innocent public of their money, hard-earned money. That's all. And if you go to such foundation that "Give us some money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, printing these books," "No, no. We are not interested in religion. We are for scientific improvement, glycerin."
Prabhupāda: (break) ...sness movement is all-embracing, all problems. People should carefully study and take it. Then they will be happy. Otherwise all plans are nonsense, the scientists, the philosophers, the... All rascals. Māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. They appear to be very learned, but māyā has killed them already. They have no knowledge. Māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. Just see. Why? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). Life is created by God. They'll not accept. "Life is created from dirt." That's all. Māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. Where is the instance that you create life by chemicals? "That we shall see in the future." Kick him immediately on his face with boot. Rascal. Will you accept any check, "It will be paid in future?" Will you accept? So why shall I accept this rascal's theory? If somebody gives me check, one million dollar, payable three hundred years after, shall I be inclined to accept such check? So why these fools accepting this post-dated check?
Viṣṇujana: Prabhupāda, they say they've already done so much. The scientists will say...
Prabhupāda: What they have done? What they have done? Why people are starving? What you have done?
Viṣṇujana: But they'll say we have created so much machineries and gone to the moon.
Prabhupāda: You cannot eat machine. You produce. You produce rice, wheat in the machine. What you have done? You have simply misled the people that instead of tilling the ground, they have come to machine, and there is no food.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But these rascal scientists will not understand this.
Dr. Patel: Einstein?
Prabhupāda: No, yes. They have no... They are, they are... I know one scientist, a rascal scientist. He has written one "Chemical Evolution."
Guest (1): Yes.
Dr. Patel: Litleus. (?)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Article came. I read it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Chemical evolution." "From chemical life has come." Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize.
Dr. Patel: That is the Russians.
Mr. Sar: Is it?
Dr. Patel: No, that man has not got the Nobel Prize.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. I know. In California University he was there. So one of, one of my students, he's also professor in the... Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He challenged that "Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" That time he said, "That I cannot say." From that day, his meeting was not attended by the students. Yes. He theoretically said that "From chemicals life has come into existence."
Dr. Patel: ...life keeps the chemicals together. As soon as the life goes away, the chemicals dissolve.
Prabhupāda: Dissolve, yes. As a medical practitioner, you know. Where is chemical? Where is chemical? That is a fact.
Dr. Patel: Always fact.
Mr. Sar: So still we are researching it.
Prabhupāda: No...
Dr. Patel: There is no research...
Prabhupāda: That is... But when the fact is there, what is the use of your researching? When the fact is already there, what is the use of your so-called researching?
Guest (3): How can we see Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: That is being explained.
Prabhupāda: No. It must corroborate.
Indian man (2): Corroborated by whom?
Prabhupāda: Corroborated by you. By you. If somebody says that "I am correct," then you have to refer to the śāstra whether he is correct or wrong. Just like a medical man. There is characteristic of certain chemicals. That is mentioned. So when accepting some chemical, the medical man tests in his laboratory whether it is correct. Not that somebody brings some chemical, some bunch of lime, and he says, "It is sodium chloride," or "Something, something." It must be tested. So the testing method is mentioned there, that the avatāra means, "This avatāra means his feature of body is this, his work is like this, he will come on such and such." Just like Kalki avatāra. Kalki avatāra, it is mentioned in the śāstra... Although He will come after four lakhs of years, it is stated in the śāstra that in Sambal... Sambal, in the house of Viṣṇu-josi, Kalki-avatāra will come.
Pañcadraviḍa: When the soul is entering, they are all complete?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If you keep... A man is dead, and keep his body. So it will decompose, but the life will come. So many worms will come. So these are... If you say that chemicals, these material, then the chemicals are there, and life is coming. Now you take this chemical and prepare. You cannot say, "Although these chemicals are there, there is some deficiency. Therefore the life is not coming." No, why do you say like that? Life is coming. That man is not coming, but the life is coming. So these are ingredients for life. You prepare. You bring that man. Still, the rascal will say that life is made from matter. Not even gentlemen, what to speak of becoming scientist? You prepare. "No, in future we shall see." And he is getting Nobel Prize. Just see how the human society has become full of rascals, go-kharaḥ. They cannot prove; still they will insist, "Yes." And so far God is concerned, we learn from śāstra that God's two energies are working like heat and light. So energies are working, we can see. How these mangoes have come unless there is some energy? So therefore the energy is working. Therefore God is there. Just like as soon as light is there, although we are in the room we can understand that sunlight is there. As soon as the darkness is there, we understand that there is no more sun. So in the presence of energy... Just like in the motor car, before starting, you round the key, and it becomes, "Gut, gut, gut, gut." Now your current is there. The energy is there. So there are symptoms. By symptoms we can understand there is God. Where is the difficulty? And Kṛṣṇa is explaining, "Here, just see the symptom. The taste in the water I am." Then why do you say that you have not seen God? You are liar. You create that taste? Now take sea water and make that taste. Why do you take water from here and there? Sea water is there. Now you take it, and by chemical you create the taste. Why don't you? Therefore, unless God is there, you cannot do that, or God's sanction, you cannot do that. This is reasonable understanding of God, apart from seeing God. And because the taste is there—Kṛṣṇa says-therefore God is there. According to your capacity, you have to see God like that. You cannot see immediately Kṛṣṇa, with dvi-bhuja muralī, playing on flute. That you have no capacity. You have to see God like that. So when the rubber stamp is going to be delivered?
Dr. Patel: I don't think that is right statement.
Prabhupāda: No, no, there are many scientists like..., but generally they think in their way. Just like modern scientists, they are trying to prove: from chemicals, life.
Indian Man (2): Jagadish Candra Bose, he was a great scientist. (Hindi) He can answer how many wise (?) He can answer.
Dr. Patel: There is no question of... He cannot make even a grain of sand. Scientists, if they say that they are making, that is wrong. They are finding out what is already admitted.
Prabhupāda: No. Some of them say, "Now there is no need of God. Science is everything." Even Dr. Radhakrishnan was saying in a meeting.
Dr. Patel: No, what is science?
Prabhupāda: Science means...
Dr. Patel: Science means knowledge. And knowledge is there. Knowledge means God.
Prabhupāda: Practical...
Dr. Patel: But we are trying to honor the knowledge which we have not now known...
Prabhupāda: That knowledge is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one understands, "Oh, here is the original source of everything," vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), that is greatest scientist. And how this knowledge comes? Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). They are struggling for the ultimate knowledge. So struggling many, many births after births, when, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, he comes to the real knowledge, then he admits, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19).
Dr. Sallaz: I'm still working because I have to entertain with money. In our world you cannot do anything without money. But what may interest you is that we have several manpower who are looking for truth, for the really truth, and trying to attain it and to follow it. And for this reason, it is said to go only according the scientific organization officials, so on, we went in quite revolutionary ways. For instance, we took all biology coming from the energetic point of view which is quite different. Not with the microscope, not with chemical analysis, but with the thinking that everything is only immaterial reaction (?). And with this we achieved extraordinary result. So we have looked at the official world as completely fool.
Yogeśvara: Are you able to understand when he speaks? I can repeat if you like.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you come here.
Dr. Sallaz: I believe on this point of view. (speaks in French with Yogeśvara)
Yogeśvara: He explains that the group that he is heading up is a little bit revolutionary in the biological field. Instead of taking biology from the point of chemical, microscopic analysis, they take biology from the point of view of energetic, that is to say, everything being energy, stemming from some source, that everything is energy.
Prabhupāda: This is nice. Actually, it is so.
Yogeśvara: One of their conclusions has been to be able to make one element to change into another element. They were able to take iron and transform it into chrome by chemical process, almost like alchemy, he says. And this was very startling for the scientific world.
Dr. Sallaz: Result. Result, only with physical heat, eight hundred, and pressure, only this. No laser, no atomic energy, nothing at all. Simply by natural measures.
Prabhupāda: We can give you one information, that metals like bell metal. Bell metal is combination of...? What is called? Tin? Tin? What is another name of tin?
Yogeśvara: Copper.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, tin and copper and mercury; if you can mix, it will become gold.
Dr. Sallaz: I'm sure it is possible, from what we have seen and made. But it is not of great interest to make gold.
Prabhupāda: No, we are interested. (laughter) We want gold for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody is paying us. We are simply selling our books. That's all. Nobody paying us, no government, no..., that "You take so many million dollars for spreading Kṛṣṇa..." Nobody. Therefore we require some gold. So biology, what is the basic principle of biology?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Yogeśvara: He says that Buddha's philosophy did not admit a spiritual personal identity to the living being, that Buddhist philosophy was that we are simply this combination of chemicals.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is all right.
Prof. Regamay: Chemical, psychical, but no continuous, no ātman.
Prabhupāda: That is śūnyavādī. We say also.
Prof. Regamay: So they are... I think it's... I must say that when comparing different religions, I see that for instance, what I find here...
Prabhupāda: There is no different religion. As soon as one tries to understand different religion, it is to be concluded that he does not know what is religion. That religion cannot be different. Religion is one. God is one. And the order given by God, that is religion. But "different" means according to time and circumstances... Just like Lord Buddha, he is giving the same religion. He is God, incarnation of God. He is asking, "Just obey Me." The same philosophy is being taught by Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." That is religion. Buddha also says "Surrender unto Me. Obey Me." So that is religion. Yes. So the religion is... One who knows God and surrenders to Him, that is religion, and anything, that is all cheating. Anything else, that is all cheating. That is not religion. This is religion. God is one, and surrender to God, that is religion. That's all. You take any religion, it doesn't matter. If one has learned what is God and how to surrender to Him, that is religion.
Prabhupāda: Struggle. We cannot do anything because the bigger creative energy's there. And we are simply trying to combat with Him. So therefore, uselessly we are struggling. That's all. We cannot change. Because the bigger creative energy is different. Prakṛti, the material nature. Just like they are trying to create living being in the laboratory. So suppose you are trying to create living being by scientific, chemical combination, so what is the credit to you? Millions of living beings are created by the material energy. Where is your credit? You cannot even create a small ant up till now. So simply you are wasting your time. That's all. Therefore it is called, prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Eh? Just like the children are playing. What is the value of this playing? They are making some howling noise. That's all. What they can do? But they are thinking they are creating so many things. "We are Ṭhākura (?)." (laughter) So you all scientists, you are doing that thing. That's all. You cannot do anything. That is not in your power. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very, very difficult, physical energy, which is being conducted... Just like you you have created this nuclear bomb, and if you take it and throw on the sun planet, what is the effect? Nuclear bomb can destroy something here. But where the... Your nuclear bomb will be destroyed if you throw it on the sun. Is it not? What is your calculation?
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) ...fig, there are thousands of seeds. And each seed contains a tree like that. And there are thousands of fruits, figs. Where is that chemist who can prepare such figs? One, in Delhi, when our festival was going on, we invited a big chemist. He admitted that "Our chemical advance, scientific advancement is like this." He explained very nicely. You were present?
Yogeśvara: Where?
Prabhupāda: In Delhi? He said that a man who has learned the art to, what is called, barking like dog, and people will go to see, purchasing ticket, ten rupees, twenty rupees, how the man is barking like a dog. And there are so many dogs barking. They won't see. This is our advancement. If a man has artificially learned how to bark, they'll go to see by paying fees. And the natural barking, they don't care. So these rascals are like that. They're trying to manufacture life. And so many life is coming by nature's process, millions and millions, that is no credit. And he's trying, utopian, he'll create life by chemical combination, he's given all credit, Nobel Prize: "Oh, here is a man." This is rascaldom. So what credit you'll get. Suppose if you can manufacture a man or an animal in the laboratory, where is your credit? There are many millions and millions are coming automatically. We are trying to give credit to Kṛṣṇa who is making all this creation.
Yogeśvara: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists say that the life, life first came from the water. They say that life first came from water. In the beginning, there were one-celled creatures that were formed from chemicals in the water.
Prabhupāda: That we also say, pralaya-payodhi-jale **. Because the whole planet was submerged in water, so there was life in water, aquatics, fishes. That is not a very new thing. We know it.
Paramahaṁsa: I have a question about evolution. Our position is that all the species have been established by Kṛṣṇa, even before creation. But yet, in the creation, it comes about through an evolutionary process?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: So the fact that evolution is existing, it's a fact. But it does not exist independent of the fact that Kṛṣṇa created it and He established it. It's not something that developed independently.
Prabhupāda: What is that? I do not follow.
Bhagavān: When Brahmā creates the different species, they're not created one at a time. They're... All over the universe, there's different species which he creates?
Prabhupāda: Brahmā is created first. So he does not belong to the species. Immediately, he's a demigod. So where is the question of evolution?
Yogeśvara: "Is this degree of covering, whether they are in goodness, in passion or in ignorance, is that a question of their physical body? Is it a question of their hormones or chemical state? Is it a chemical state that some people are more covered than others by the modes of nature?"
Prabhupāda: Covered means with some dirty things. That's all.
Yogeśvara: By past karma.
Prabhupāda: Just like the sun is covered with the cloud. That list is like that.
Madame Devi: (French)
Yogeśvara: She asks if by repeating the mantra, the name of God, it has more...
Prabhupāda: You become purified. Purified.
Yogeśvara: You give the example all the time of the more you polish the mirror, the more the light can shine. (French)
Madame Devi: (French)
Pṛthu Putra: She says, "Therefore we have to repeat a lot of times the name of God every day."
Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Everything is worst. Sinful is sinful. Disease is disease. This body, either it is living or it is dead, it is not very important thing. Now see. And the whole world is after this body. Kṛṣṇa says, "The body, either dead or alive, it is not a subject matter for serious consideration." Now see. And what the world is going on? Simply for bodily... Body means senses. It is very difficult to the, for the western people to understand that body is not important thing; the soul is important thing. First of all, they do not know what is soul and then consideration of importance. This is their position. And if one cannot understand what is soul, what he will understand about God? Soul is a minute particle of God. If one cannot understand about this minute particle, then what he'll understand of the Supreme? In the laboratory, if you can test a little sample, just like take a little sea water, analyze, you chemically test, then you can understand what is the composition of the sea water. But if you have no knowledge even a small drop of sea water, how you'll understand the sea, what... That is their position. They do not understand even the sample of spirit soul, as we are. Simply they are trying to cover it. "There is no soul. There is no soul. Life is generated from matter." Although they cannot prove it. A fool's paradise. The fools, rascals, they are explaining the living force in some way, and other fools are accepting. This is the position of western countries, Europe and America. It is a fool's paradise. It is paradise, certainly.
Prabhupāda: I think you missed that verse, jagato ahitāya. Anyway, these are the description of demonic activities. So this is practical. The last two disastrous war was waged only for this industry. This is the cause. German, they are actually in Europe very intelligent and their machine products and other things, they make very nice things. At least, I have got experience, German chemicals are first-class chemical. So they manufacture and British occupied the half of the world in their colonization, whole Africa, and they controlled India and China, Japan, yes, China, Burma, Ceylon, Australia. So these poor people, they manufactured. They have got goods enough; where to sell? As soon as they go to the British territories, "No, you cannot sell. If you want to sell, then hundred percent duty." So price increase. This was the grudge. Everyone knows. This is the cause of two wars. The jagato ahita. Now, why so much? You require a scissor? Go to a blacksmith and pay something. He'll make a scissor. "No. Produce millions of scissor." Then where is market, sir? This is going on. Produce millions of TV machine. Simple they are used for wasting time. One or two or five made for some important business. Now they are producing millions of sets.
Prabhupāda: ...atomic bomb there. Huh? (laughter) It is a burning mass of... Suppose it is a burning mass. So what atomic bomb will act there?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Atomic bomb normally acts as, ah, what happened is the particles floating in the atmosphere, like chemicals, chemicals, what happened is this explosion offers this, ah, fundamental particles like neutrons, electrons, they bombard further atoms which are already in the atmosphere. So one by one they knock out these smaller particles called electrons. They move very high velocity. There is a very tremendous energy, amount of energy released. So one... So suppose first atomic bomb, ah, the, ah, the energy-bringing substance like electron, neutron, hits another atom, and then it knocks out several of that sort, and then it makes a chain reaction, not stopping because..., and thereby several atoms they will knock each other, one by one, without stopping. Small particles, so much energy has got. But in the sun planet, where it is so hot, it is already probably more powerful that the atomic bomb itself.
Prabhupāda: Therefore this example. (laughs) What it will act, the atomic bomb, in the sun planet? Similarly, Brahmā might have possessed some power, but what is that power in comparison to Kṛṣṇa? Every power is derived from Him; so Brahmā's mystic power cannot act on Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Prabhupāda: And if somebody can show magic, then he becomes God.
Jayatīrtha: God is showing so much magic but people don't recognize it.
Prabhupāda: No, this is also magic. But the scientists will say, "Water is combination of this chemical, that chemical." And wherefrom so much chemical came? That is a magic. But that magic he'll not see. Eh? Dr...?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That magic, they will say it was produced by nature.
Prabhupāda: So anyway, it is magic for him.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but they don't say it is magic.
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is magic for him because he cannot produce so much water. In the laboratory he can produce water just to fill up a test tube. But wherefrom this water came? That is magic.
| Page Title: | Chemical (Conversations 1968 - 1974) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 18 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=109, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 109 |